Do you throw or twist?

[Nickc]

All very good hocus pocus.

Thought the David Blair and Danny Maude videos very helpful. It is the type of swing I used to have with persimmon woods (heavier heads than today's metal woods!) and have viered too much away from.

Would I be right in thinking that an essential  key is to have the club in the correct position at the end of the backswing.

[GreatStrike]

3 minutes ago, Nickc said:

All very good hocus pocus.

Thought the David Blair and Danny Maude videos very helpful. It is the type of swing I used to have with persimmon woods (heavier heads than today's metal woods!) and have viered too much away from.

Would I be right in thinking that an essential  key is to have the club in the correct position at the end of the backswing.

 

Thanks Nick!

 

Correct positioning of the club is always important and vital to many elements of the swing, especially swinging on-plane. In the case of a good hand/wrist release action the golfer needs to be aware of how his hands and wrists react from the top of his backswing down to the impact zone which has a lot to do with being in the correct position at the end of the backswing.      

[GreatStrike]

Dan, thanks for the message.

 

Glad you're understanding it. It's not easy putting such detailed information into words versus discussing and showing someone in-person. 

 

There's an important difference between cupping the lead wrist and hinging the lead wrist. Cupping is extension to a significant degree in which the left wrist bends markedly (considerably) back whereas hinging a small degree produces only a very slight amount of extension (far short of what cupping is), and that slight hinging extension evolves from the wrist c0ck at the base of the left thumb. 

 

So, as the lead wrist begins to uncock at the base of the left thumb the so-called 'release' is beginning to take place. This is the point in which the golfer either is going to have good hand (wrist) action or is not going to have good (wrist) hand action. Just uncocking the lead wrist alone does not provide good hand (wrist) action to take place - meaning the golf club does not release from one side of the golfer's hands to the other side of the golfer's hands, but instead all that happens is an uncocking (ulnar deviation) without a rollover/twist/twirl of the hands. So, something needs to happen or be put into place that triggers and stimulates the lead wrist to bring about the miraculous rollover/rotate-over/twist/twirl of the hands. (Attempting to roll the hands over or twist the forearms using muscular force and manipulation in a feeble attempt to achieve the release, create clubhead speed and square the clubface is an amateur golfer's fool errand and rarely successful.)

 

That 'something' that can be put into place which triggers and stimulates the lead wrist to rollover/twist/twirl is the small amount (i.e. 10 degrees) of hinging extension evolving from the base of the left thumb as it uncocks. This small amount of hinging extension is not to be confused with common cupping or bending, which would produce a 'flip' - but instead the small amount of hinging extension evolving from the base of the left thumb as uncocking takes place provides a gateway (think of it as a guide or gateway ramp) for the rollover/rotate-over/twist/twirl action to take place, which is vital for the golf swing to act like that of a flail. 

 

So to be clear, there are two elements of the release pertaining to the lead wrist taking place simultaneously - (i) the natural (non-manipulated/unpowered) uncocking from the base of the thumb as the downswing progresses and (ii) the golfer induced (a negligible movement) slight hinging extension emanating from the base of the thumb. From that it's just a matter of the golfer letting and allowing his soft/relaxed wrists to let go and rollover/rotate-over/twist/twirl. The club's weight and momentum is the catalyst that drives the hand/wrist action.     

 

 

PS... Yes, Dan - The 'swinging left', 'exit left', arc it off' swing method discussed in the latter part of this thread is indeed a release technique but more of a body swinger's technique that is accomplished with firm wrists, thus the club disappearing in the down-the-line view behind the golfer in the early follow-through and moving around to the left post-impact. It's not for everybody... 

 

This article offers a decent understanding of a Flip versus Passive Release

 

Rory has a passive release. He shows no sign of muscular manipulation as he allows his golf club's weight and momentum to drive his hands/wrists to release (rollover, rotate-over, twist, baton twirl) which gets the clubhead from one side of his hands to the other side of his hands with lightning speed and repeatability.   

 

 

 

 

 

    

      

Edited April 23, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

Thomas - It does not surprise me at all that you're achieving unexpected, astonishing hand/wrist action by purposely trying to create a minor little flip going toward impact. That little bit of hinging is all that's needed to provide an entryway for the hands to begin rolling-over/rotating-over/swiveling/twirling, but as you now know - your wrists must remain soft for them to act like a flail. It's helpful if you actually anticipate the hand/wrist rolling-over/rotating-over/swiveling/twirling so you do not try to physically make it happen with muscular manipulation.  Thanks for the update about your good progress. Hopefully others will gain from your experience... 

 

As you'll find out over time there's not a whole lot of difference between the amount or range/magnitude of a sound/proper hand/wrist action in which the hands and wrist roll-over/rotate-over/swivel/twirl compared to a menacing flip. This is discussed and displayed in the video (below) by Padraig Harrington about getting Active Wrists in the Swing.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking Padraig Harrington doesn't know what he's talking about. He is spot on! 

 

Master good hand/wrist action and you will be playing the best golf of your life...

 

 

This position happens naturally with proper wrist action.

 

v

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

Sean & wife Emily - Thank you both for the message. That was nice!

 

Ever since The Golfing Machine book bombarded golfers with its convoluted swing information there have been a gazillion amateurs that never reached their potential trying to maintain a 'flat left wrist' (FLW) throughout the swing and through the impact zone, or they unsuccessfully tried to roll their wrists while trying to keep their left wrist from breaking-down. I can sense the muscular tension and mental frustration from afar!  My advice is to throw The Golfing Machine book away or hide it where you won't ever find it!

 

To achieve a sound golf swing the lead wrist MUST release - that release action is the left wrist giving way into some extension. I said 'some', that does not mean a 'flip' where the lead wrist bends markedly and the handle backs-up putting the clubhead well ahead of the handle. 

 

When the lead wrist begins to hinge (a.k.a. extension) a little is when the golfer's soft wrists can and does easily rollover/rotate-over/swivel/baton-twirl which is propagated by the club's weight and momentum.  Watch this video (below) and you will not deny that these well-known tour pros' left wrist is purposely allowed to both give way or breakdown (a.k.a hinge into extension) and to rollover/rotate-over/swivel/baton-twirl.  

 

 

 

 

      

Edited April 29, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

Getting back to the subject and title of this lengthy thread 'Do you Throw or Twist' - this is an excellent video (below) that explains the importance of letting (allowing) the lead wrist to give way or breakdown a little so the left wrist can hinge or cup a little - but mind you, not an out-n-out bend or 'flip' of the left wrist. Truth be told, a flip left wrist is a whole lot closer to good hand/wrist action than trying to maintain a 'flat left wrist' (FLW).       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[Delacroix]

I am still fighting the flip at the bottom. I like to feel the left hand flex a little bit instead of the right wrist extending move. I flex the left wrist a little bit, get to the top of the backswing twist a tiny bit more and then try to feel the toe of the club kick out ever so slightly to get the momentum going to rotate through. 

 

I have weakened my grip a bit to trade off for the fact I'm now keeping the clubface square with the left wrist flex. 

 

I have noticed that even with the square clubface I REALLY like to grab the handle with the index and thumb of the right and flick at the ball. This is causing some mid-flight to low draws.

 

I began thinking about how Hogan said the pincers of the trail hand (thumb and index) are the swing killers. But was confused as to why he would stress the pressure point at the bottom of the index finger, and also say he wished he had three right hands? This has always confused me. But I figured a good place to start was the get rid of the "swing killers" and I thought about the picture on the cover with his grip with no thumb or index wrapped around (which some say is his "secret" he hid in plain sight... if you believe those kinds of things). [Image 1] So I tried to limit the thumb and index in the right hand to the point where those fingers are merely a passive backstop to the transitioning momentum of the club. 

 

This is what I feel in the swing with my right hand. I pinch the thumb and index together at the base. I believe Ernie Els said every good golfer has that "pinch" in their grip. [Image 2] The right index pad has nothing loaded at address. I get to the top of the swing and my left wrist is bowed so I know the right wrist is cocked as it should be. I twist a touch more with the left wrist.... and from then on the right hand does ABSOLUTELY nothing. The index/thumb backstop I've created are still nestling the club at index pressure point... but the thumb and index tips aren't wrapped around the lead side of the grip and anticipating pincering down to flip or steer the clubhead or flick it through impact. Essentially it feels like the right hand is "open" on the lead side... Aside from the wrapped around pinky ring and long finger, there is no contact from the right index or thumb on the lead side of the grip.

 

So the right hand is completely cocked and the shaft loads into the "cradle" centered on the right index base as Hogan described. But all I do is hold the right wrist c0ck and fire downwards and my body now can feel the sweet spot... almost as if I feel like I'm swinging the toe instead of the hosel. And since the right hand is "open" on the lead side; at some point in my mind at least I feel nothing in the "cradle" anymore near what my body interprets to be around P6 and it feels like the grip flings away from the "cradle" as my hands slowly start to turn over and release. Which would make sense that the club at this point is outracing my right hand which is slowly losing flexion.

 

I'm not sure if this is correct but my irons are longer AND higher than ever before.

 

I had always been trying to DRIVE the index pressure point into the ground and it had led me to HIT at the ball... engaging the thumb and index to snatch the grip, start to flip, and drastically close the clubface through impact.

 

I'm not sure if this cradle fling sensation is correct but it definitely seems to be working. It doesn't feel like i'm "letting go" per se with the right hand... it just feels like I'm ok with "not holding on"

 

This may seem unrelated to this thread but like most have said... if you do the "sweet spot out of its hiding spot" most poor golfers will proceed to hook the crap out of it. Which is me. Low hooks. A square club face seems so closed to me I'm still figuring out how to hit it high and straight instead of low and left at times.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Delacroix

[GreatStrike]

Allen - Yes, there is a degree of timing necessary to release properly and to prevent flipping. Think of the release like a coin, which has two distinct sides. On one side of the release quotient is the golfer that desperately wants to create as much clubhead speed as possible and errs on releasing too soon, causing a flip. (That is typically what happens with young boys early in their progress to becoming elite adult golfers.) On the other side of the release quotient is the golfer that has a casting problem and is trying his best not to cast or flip and therefore uses excessive forearm and grip tension to avoid the flip and never actually releases much at all, but instead ends up dragging the handle through impact with an open clubface and with paltry clubhead speed and pitiful form.

 

So, which mistake is worse? I tend to believe the latter is much worse because the golfer that is afraid of flipping and uses tension to prevent it from happening is moving further away from the centrum of having a perfectly timed release which is needed to produce a sound golf swing. On the other hand, the golfer that tends to flip every so often is actually right on the cusp of achieving perfection in his timing of the release.       

 

The better you get at timing the release, the better ball striker you will become. As you progress you will likely find that you'll move slightly to one side or the other of precise timing. But like other things related to sports that require good timing (e.g. pitching/throwing baseball, frisbee, darts, football, tennis, table tennis, etc.) most people are able to become very skilled with their exactness of timing the release that it practically is borderline machine-like accuracy - and it has next to nothing to do with age, strength or flexibility to become exceptionally proficient at timing the release.

 

Hone that timing! And, realize that a bit of a flip every once in a while is right on the cusp of achieving perfection in your timing of the release. But also remember, the wrist release is not propagated by muscular manipulation coming from the hands/forearms. If you could practice as if your lead wrist was like the free-moving swivel joint of a flail tool and time its release to begin releasing slightly before impact, you'd be dangerous!           

 

        

Below is an excellent video explaining how the lead wrist releases into extension. Note that the lead wrist slightly begins to move into a bit of extension a smidgen before impact. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[Delacroix]

I really wish I could see this Shawn Clement baton twirl video... it's gone from youtube. Is it on a paysite of his perchance?

[GreatStrike]

On 4/30/2022 at 3:18 PM, Delacroix said:

I really wish I could see this Shawn Clement baton twirl video... it's gone from youtube. Is it on a paysite of his perchance?

 

@Delacroix  I wish you could see the Baton Twirl video too. 

 

HERE are a few messages on Shawn's 'Wisdom in Golf' forum about the Baton Twirl with individuals discussing lead wrist hinging versus feeling it twirling.

 

I believe Shawn  is now making practically all his videos - with the exception of special videos made for like GolfWRX to advertise his website - available only with a membership. 

 

All of the video series below are available to stream for members of the Premium Channel. To get access to all of these amazing series, simply become a subscriber of Wisdom in Golf Premium and stream them as long as you’re an active member. If you want to download and own your own copy of a series, you can purchase below!

 

► https://wisdomingolf.com/video-series/

 

 

What you might find interesting is that Shawn's swing (both as a righty and lefty since he has equal strength and is equally skilled with his right-hand side and his left-hand side all the time - a.k.a. ambidextral) is based on his lead wrist hinging markedly at the top (see image below), which is a little bit old school style compared to the more flat left wrist (FLW) style commonly seen today.

 

However, Shawn's lead wrist release action in the downswing through the impact zone is very much like the 'baton twirl' wrist release action. Though at first glance you might think the 'baton twirl' release action is a firm wrist rollover type action, but it is not. If you were to do the baton twirl back-n-forth (with a baton held in the lead hand at the base of the fingers) it exhibits a perfect example of what I've been posting about recently, which is a distinct, unmistakable, lead wrist extension release action through impact with the wrist extension beginning to happen a smidgen before the clubface is run into the ball. 

 

If you'll pay close attention to the tour pros (PGA, LPGA, Champions, European, etc.) you'll see far more players with some lead wrist extension entering and exiting the impact zone compared to players maintaining a flat left wrist (FLW) or a bowed left wrist. 

 

 

 

A handful of years ago I was asked by Shawn to join him and about 12-15 of his students in Dallas as a guest to hit some balls with Shawn for the students.   I can assure you Shawn is the real deal. Every one of his students seemed to latch onto his unique verbal instruction jardon (e.g. cut the dandelion stem, grass whip, swing the sword, throw the club,etc...) right away, and Shawn backed-up his verbal instruction by displaying it in his own golf swing. He was quite impressive! I enjoyed being with Shawn and joining with him in his very insightful group lesson event that day.                  

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[Delacroix]

Still can't find the baton twirl on Shawns pay site... although he talks about in one video this new sensation. Imagine there is a gigantic globe in front of you. And through impact you want to SPIN the globe as hard as you can. You'd catch it with your right wrist totally extended as you first touch it... rotate... and eventually flick your wrist over to pronate it but also losing extension in the right wrist to spin the crap out of it. Is this analogous to the baton twirl? Seems close enough.

 

One major issue I'm having that I bounce back between on a day by day basis:

Do you HOLD the extension? I believe HocusPocus has said various things. SliceFixer in his encyclopedia definitely says hold onto it. And just TURN. (also that Hogans secret was maintaining pressure of the left upper arm to the chest - but that's another thought for another day). But for me when I have my right wrist completely extended and hold it back I feel insanely closed. My body can't turn fast enough to generate speed. Surely there is a "flick" through the impact albeit not conscious but momentum driven that will lessen the right wrist extension, no? I wouldn't spin a globe holding that extension. Yet some posts here say to do that. But when I do that my swing becomes clunky... it doesn't feel like a swing... it feels like a chop... A "swing" to me definitely would have an accumulation of momentum. LIke I said my miss is a hook so my body is SCREAMING at me when I'm fully torqued with the right wrist "holy crap you're going to absolutely hood this golf ball low and left"

 

It feels like some advocate

• HOLD the wrist in extension and turn

Or

• Turn the screw driver / twirl the baton / fling the box (a left handed Clay Ballard feel) / Get the club to the other side of the wrists

Perhaps the truth is in the adage where too much medicine is a bad thing

[KMeloney]

"Loose wrists" are mentioned a lot in this thread. Loose wrists can't hold any wrist angles.

[Delacroix]

Very good point

[Nickc]

7 hours ago, KMeloney said:

"Loose wrists" are mentioned a lot in this thread. Loose wrists can't hold any wrist angles.

By "loose" what is meant is probably flexible with fluid movement not weak and limp.

 

[GreatStrike]

9 hours ago, KMeloney said:

"Loose wrists" are mentioned a lot in this thread. Loose wrists can't hold any wrist angles.

 

You don't want to 'hold' any angle. Holding portrays using muscular tension. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

With respect to 'release', note in the video (below) the wrist angle coming into impact with the hammer, it's naturally hinged slightly with a smidgen of extension. This is tremendously helpful to allow the release action to proceed. 

 

Note also that Shawn makes a point of the fact that the hammer's weight and momentum releases the golfer's anatomy, thus causing the golfer's lead wrist and lower forearm to rollover, twirl, swivel.  This is true when the golfer exchanges the hammer for a golf club - it is the golf club's weight and momentum that causes the golfer's lead wrist and lower forearm to rollover, twirl, swivel.  It is most definitely not the other way around as most people think - that the release movement is caused by the golfer's muscular manipulation, making it to rollover. 

 

The video's title "Don't leave all that speed On The Table' is spot on!  Unless the release movement is unencumbered and free to move (rollover, twirl, swivel) the speed is drastically reduced - and any 'holding' of an angle prevents the clubface from squaring up.         

 

 

[jgonz69]

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by jgonz69

[GreatStrike]

 

Note the condition of the lead wrist in this posted video during and after the release, including Brian Manzella's lead wrist  - it's hinging markedly. If you don't want to sniffle and inhibit the speed of the clubhead the lead wrist must hinge (break down) - trying to retain a LFW through the release and early follow-through is a fool's game - a futile endeavor or an unwise course of action which is usually combined with the mistaken idea that brute hand/forearm strength is what should be use to produce clubhead speed and squaring the clubface - the flail action and golf club weight and momentum be damned. You might as well give the club's handle a magnitude 10 death grip and lockup your wrist and forearm. 

 

For those amateurs that aren't satisfied with their clubhead speed and distance and also can't figure out how to square the clubface at impact there's nothing better than hitting a bucket of balls with the full intention of having the club's weight and momentum purposely breakdown their lead wrist and have it react like a free-hinging joint...if you will only let (allow) it.   

 

 

 

    

5 hours ago, jgonz69 said:

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[Delacroix]

Hocus_Pocus I just would like to thank you for all the work you put in for all the responses in this thread you've made. It is truly astounding.

 

And thanks for your responses to my question. I had a feeling I was on the right path just wanted some positive validation that letting the club release the wrists was the right way to go.

 

I have implemented this move into my golf swing after never ever doing it before. I love playing table tennis when the opportunity arises and am pretty good at it. In college I hung out with a lot of guys on the golf team. And when we played table tennis in the dorms I could hold my own but it always ended up being a golfer who would win. And I remember one of my golf buddies saying that it always seemed like golfers were good at it. And now I know. Just like Shawn said in that video you posted. A golf release honestly doesn't feel too far off from a ripped forehanded top spin shot in table tennis. Where your opponent just leaves a floater out there and you really just want to stuff it home flying back to his side of the table.

 

So thank you. You've literally changed my entire brain's perception of what the objective and task is when I have an iron in my hand.

 

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

Here are six pearls of wisdom about the wrists from some of the best players and teachers of the game:

 

     1. The wrists make great followers, but terrible leaders.

 

     2. Everything ever said about light grip pressure should also probably be applied to wrist tension.

 

► 3. The wrists are the flail (release) in the golf swing and should snap or release unconsciously without being forced or restricted in any way.

 

     4. You can be confidently aware of your wrists or hands, but you should never try to control them.

 

► 5. The flail (release) of your wrists is about 40 percent or more of your clubhead speed.

 

     6. Find a wrist hinge release that feels comfortable and fits your desired shot shape. From there, work on body movements that allow for its repetition, especially under pressure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

Chris in PA - Thanks!

 

Don't feel like you are all by yourself in being puzzled by how the tour pros on the range seem to just casually swing their golf club yet the ball travels a mile with impeccable distance control and has either a soft draw of a soft fade ball flight. It's a mystery that has bewildered amateur golfers their entire golfing lives. Hopefully I can enlighten you about what the tour pros are doing that amateur golfers rarely ever do (except for the rare occasion when the amateur does it by mistake]. 

 

I have mentioned using the golf club's weight and momentum numerous times to achieve a sound golf swing, but unless it is explained more thoroughly the concept often falls on deaf ears or it is simply not understood. So, let me try to explain how the use of the golf club's weight and momentum is paramount and superior to using one's strength and muscular brawn to apply force in an effort to power the golf club through impact with the golf ball.  Hopefully this Martin Ayers video (below) 'Momentum In The Golf Swing' will help. 

 

Unless or until there is some weight for the golfer to get moving there cannot be any momentum. The momentum comes about by the golfer moving this weight (that we call a golf club). But it's not how most amateur golfers think they should go about moving the weight (i.e. golf club). You see, most amateur golfers think it's a matter of them using their muscular strength to swing move it. Well, this could not be any further from the actual truth of the matter. So, the question is; How is the golf club moved (swung) in a sound golf swing? The answer is as bizarre and incredible as trying to understand the golf swing itself! As weird and backward as it seems the answer is; the golf club actually swings itself! Let me do a bit of explaining so it makes more sense.

 

All you need to do is get the golf club's weight moving for it to have 'momentum'. Once you have momentum then all you have to do is not interfere with it. It may shock you how fast the downswing will be just from simply the weight, momentum and gravity. Remember, you control the amount of momentum in the swing, just like you control the amount of momentum when putting. So, how does one interfere with the golf club's momentum once it gets moving? That's the crux of the problem! momentum is essentially the heart of the swing. It is very easily interfered with; simply by attempting to help increase the momentum's speed by just a little, it upsets the swing, or if you really try to increase the speed like most amateur golfers so, it completely destroys the swing because the golfer tightens-up his shoulder muscles, arms, forearms/wrist/hands...all in a futile effort to increase its speed - weight and momentum swinging in an orbit becomes discombobulated ad falls out of orbit.  So, you're now probably thinking; 'you want me to believe that the speed of the golf club's momentum moving is all I need to hit 6 irons 200 yards and drives nearly 300 yards without me adding my manly lumberjack strength? Yep! You betcha! The golf club's weight and momentum and physics.

 

Try it! Just the momentum mind you - that's it, nothing else. NO strength, NO help from your manly, muscle-bound body to increase the speed even 1 mph. NO help to accelerate the clubhead through impact. NO help to do anything more than hold onto the handle and have soft wrists. Get used to hearing the sweet sound of compression. NO purposely manipulating your forearms or twisting/bowing your wrist to square the clubface. That clubface will square-up beautifully every swing with a decent grip. Just 'let the golf club's momentum be the swing'. Remove any notion that you can or should help in any way, because you are an absolute interferer, an interrupter, your help inflicts nothing but Trouble with a capital T. You see, the golf club's momentum in conjunction with the free-moving wrist joint of the physic's pendulum system is all that is needed for 100+mph clubhead speed and precision clubface alignment at impact from the golf club's head design and club/shaft weight/balance.

 

When you see tour pros on the range swing like they're almost trying to see how slow they can swing the club yet the ball flies an incredible distance, they are using the club's weight and momentum to make the swing. They are practicing (fine tuning) their ability 'not' to interfere with the swing.  Once they get their golf club momentum going their duty or charge is to not interject or interrupt. That is where the typical amateur golfer either lacks the training or experience of using the golf club's weight and momentum to make the swing or they are a cynic and never accepted the practice. Ever seen Sam Snead or Ernie Els make a swing? Their golf swings are personified by their practice of using the golf club's weight and momentum to carry-out their golf swing.

 

You already make a swing using the club's weight and momentum in all likelihood when you putt. Think about that! I doubt you have any problem preventing yourself from exerting unnecessary muscular manipulation on the club when putting. You get the putter's weight moving and control the putter's momentum to make the stroke you desire.  It's the same concept with an iron or wood except the club is longer and has loft.  

 

If you want to master the game of golf you must learn the practice of 'swinging' the golf club, not try to force the club to move with muscular manipulation like a novice lumberjack.       

 

                                            

 

 

 

 

 

    

Edited May 8, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[GreatStrike]

Jerry E. UT- You have to find a way to tame and curb your tendency to interject added speed by using muscular force. It's a learning process that is accomplished by seeing successful results of 'not' interjecting added speed.  

 

I have found that if the golfer's imaginary impression of his clubshaft where it attaches to the clubhead is a 'frozen rope' that can easily be snapped or broken, his backswing will be smooth with excellent momentum as he gets the club moving. He will not jerk it back for fear of snapping or breaking the frozen rope shaft. As the momentum carries the club to the top he knows the same concern challenges him for the downswing - he must not jerk it down for fear of snapping or breaking the frozen rope shaft. Accordingly, he will get the club moving smoothly with excellent momentum in the downswing. Usually from that point onward both the downswing and the club are nicely coupled and on laser-guided autopilot so the likelihood of the golfer exerting interfering/interrupting forces is greatly reduced as long as the golfer continues his assignment not to snap or break the frozen rope shaft. It's usually quite amazing to see the stunned and astonishing look on the face of the golfer with he sees the shot results of his swing performance.   

 

 

 

 

               

Edited May 8, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
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[Nickc]

Hocus_Pocus

"It may shock you how fast the downswing will be just from simply the weight,momentum and gravity."

 

I know this a silly question but instead of slower swingers using lighter equipment would they benefit from heavier clubs or at least clubs with a higher swing weight?

[GreatStrike]

56 minutes ago, Nickc said:

Hocus_Pocus

"It may shock you how fast the downswing will be just from simply the weight,momentum and gravity."

 

I know this a silly question but instead of slower swingers using lighter equipment would they benefit from heavier clubs or at least clubs with a higher swing weight?

 

@Nickc I think all golfers are better served by being fitted for clubs which may be quite different in shaft weight and swingweight from what they presently use. Better players will rarely find that lighter clubs benefit them. Slower swingers will usually find that being fitted for proper shaft flex benefits them the most.       

 

[Delacroix]

Would you say -- that irresepctive of whether you are feeling the motion as pronating the trail hand through impact or supinating the lead hand through impact -- that it would probably benefit one to use a weaker grip?

 

I assume this is an unanswerable question to some degree... but with the lead thumb at ~45* on the trail side of the shaft... if I start to tumble with the lead hand or to pronate with the trail hand as I near impact I am WAY way too shut. I was playing yesterday and 3H - 6i were snap hooks. 7i to PW I was literally playing a 30yd draw. Yeah it's cool to hit my 8 iron 155 but when I can't hold a green I just think it's worthless. All I want is to hit my mid irons sky high and just bomb a green and have it sit. 

 

For decades all I wanted was to hit a draw... and now it's my default shot shape and I overcook it at times and I can't get it out of me to save my life. 

[GreatStrike]

17 hours ago, Delacroix said:

Would you say -- that irresepctive of whether you are feeling the motion as pronating the trail hand through impact or supinating the lead hand through impact -- that it would probably benefit one to use a weaker grip?

 

I assume this is an unanswerable question to some degree... but with the lead thumb at ~45* on the trail side of the shaft... if I start to tumble with the lead hand or to pronate with the trail hand as I near impact I am WAY way too shut. I was playing yesterday and 3H - 6i were snap hooks. 7i to PW I was literally playing a 30yd draw. Yeah it's cool to hit my 8 iron 155 but when I can't hold a green I just think it's worthless. All I want is to hit my mid irons sky high and just bomb a green and have it sit. 

 

For decades all I wanted was to hit a draw... and now it's my default shot shape and I overcook it at times and I can't get it out of me to save my life. 

 

@Delacroix,

 

It truly is as unanswerable question to answer because 20 people could each have a vastly different grip and their kinematic results and range of motion can differ greatly. 

 

It sounds like you're trying out a very strong grip and learning it's not working out for you. I'm guessing your rate of clubface closing is way off the charts. I would recommend not deviating too far on either side of a normal two knuckle lead hand grip. I strongly suspect your 'tumble' will work much better with a normal to slightly weaker grip. Your goal is to learn what it takes to make a sound release to have the club get from one side of your hands to the other side of your hands without forcing it by using muscular manipulation. 

 

I know you wish you could see Shawn Clement's Baton Twirl video, and I wish you could too. I actually contacted Shawn recently and asked him about the video and he remembers the video but he said he has so many videos he could not find that particular video. He said it must be in one of his 'release'  albums...but that didn't help him find it or help me to find it. He referenced some Polish Release video, but that didn't compute with me. I'm not sure anyone could ever gain access to the Baton Twirl video if they had a premium WIG account.

 

So, let me try to describe The Baton Twirl video the best I can in written word, which obviously will not represent what the video conveys.

 

The video diplayed Shawn holding about a 16" baton, held right in the middle of the baton in his left hand at the base of his fingers with his arm held out straight horizonally at arm's length. His palm faced down and the back of his hand faced up. He moved his hand and baton to his left about two feet (say over his left foot) until his left arm naturally rotated and rolled over 180°, thus putting his palm now facing up and the back of his hand now facing down. In other words his hand an baton rotated and rolled over 180°. He then moved his hand and baton back to the right until his left arm once again rotated and rolled over with his palm now facing down again and the back of his hand now facing up again. This completed the twirl cycle of one 180° rotation and roll over, and this brought his hand and baton back 180° with rotation and roll over to where it began. Of course all you want is for the arm/wrist/hand unit to rotate and roll over 180° one time for a full release action. He made this complete twirl cycle a number of times and each time the motion followed an elongated figure-eight shape pattern as his hand and baton moved right-to- left and left-to-right. {I don't know if you can follow this and make sense of it.] Shawn pointed out that the baton had some weight to it, and the momentum of moving the baton created enough weight and momentum to cause his forearm/wrist/hand unit to rotate and roll over without him giving any thought to it.  It was a perpetual cycling motion that had a life of its own to it. Shawn made a point of explaining that you did not want the release (the 180° rotation and roll over to happen too soon. He had a small traffic cone setup to show how the release (the final  180° rotation and roll over must take place after passing the cone, otherwise the release would be too soon and crash into the cone. That's about the best I can do at describing what the Baton Twirl video was!     

 

 

       

      

Edited May 9, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Delacroix]

Thanks for reaching out HP you're too kind.

 

I think I can gather what you are saying. I thought the original description was about rolling a baton over your hand (flicking it over and letting go and letting the weight of the baton carry it over your hand and back to the starting position).... but this sounds much clearer. I think I understand the figure 8 thing as well. It seems like this is much more of a gradual natural roll. Something I have tapped into swinging my G-Force in my living room "feeling the weight of the arm club unit" as Shawn says. The arms naturally roll over on the backswing and do so again on the down swing. 

 

And yes I have a strong grip and I'm trying to start my tumble much too soon. It definitely wouldn't be in Shawn's cone zone. Feels like at P6 my club face is 45 degrees shut. I recorded my swing and my club face is facing the ground on take away which is clearly indicative of me over doing it. I've been subscribing to the "an open club face is BAD at any point in time" "a strong grip is way better than a weak grip" "you never want to be open coming into impact or you'll stall and flip" for so long that now a square club face just feels open to me unfortunately. If I set up about 10 degrees open my irons are extremely flush. 

 

Thanks again.

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, Delacroix said:

Thanks for reaching out HP you're too kind.

 

I think I can gather what you are saying. I thought the original description was about rolling a baton over your hand (flicking it over and letting go and letting the weight of the baton carry it over your hand and back to the starting position).... but this sounds much clearer. I think I understand the figure 8 thing as well. It seems like this is much more of a gradual natural roll. Something I have tapped into swinging my G-Force in my living room "feeling the weight of the arm club unit" as Shawn says. The arms naturally roll over on the backswing and do so again on the down swing. 

 

And yes I have a strong grip and I'm trying to start my tumble much too soon. It definitely wouldn't be in Shawn's cone zone. Feels like at P6 my club face is 45 degrees shut. I recorded my swing and my club face is facing the ground on take away which is clearly indicative of me over doing it. I've been subscribing to the "an open club face is BAD at any point in time" "a strong grip is way better than a weak grip" "you never want to be open coming into impact or you'll stall and flip" for so long that now a square club face just feels open to me unfortunately. If I set up about 10 degrees open my irons are extremely flush. 

 

Thanks again.

 

@Delacroix,

 

Yes, the Baton Twirl is a gradual, natural rollover. 

 

There are two ways to make a gradual yet natural rotation/rollover, each being quite different from one another. One way is what you'd see and feel happening if swinging a golf club horizontally (think baseball swing) where the arm/wrist/hand unit rotates and rolls over naturally without any thought or muscular manipulation by the golfer. It doesn't get any easier or better than that! The other way to make a gradual yet natural rotation/rollover is to use the golf club's weight and momentum to excite (inspire) that exact same rotation/rollover action. But the latter requires a degree of expectation and willingness on the golfer's part to 'let it happen', which actually becomes ingrained in the DNA of elite golfers with sound golf swings. That degree of expectation is best explained by comparing how you would fully expect a rebound effect if you allowed your arm to drop from an outstretched horizontal position. But this effect would be somewhat different if you had [say] something of weight and size (e.g. a golf club) in your hand when you dropped your arm from an outstretched horizontal position, wouldn't it? Then, the golf club's weight and momentum would dictate how your arm/wrist/hand unit may react, right? It's the same concept when talking about the perspective that once you get the golf club started moving, using the golf club's weight and momentum to practically carryout the swing for you. That's the way elite golfers with sound golf swings envision their golf swing. Amateurs, on the other hand, will focus on using muscular manipulation in order to accomplish what the elite golfer did by using his golf club's weight and momentum!    

 

As for the first way to make a gradual yet natural rotation/rollover of the arm/wrist/hand unit - there's nothing better than practicing hitting shots off a sidehill lie with the ball a few inches above your feet.  You can really gain some feeling and sense of the arm/wrist/hand unit rotation/rollover by hitting balls from such a lie, so much so that it may add to your frustration when hitting from a level lie and yearning for that good arm/wrist/hand unit rotation rollover you get so easily on a sidehill lie but vanishes when on a level lie...though it's a learning process and each stage or phase is helpful to attain the desired results. 

 

I hope this makes some sense to you! 

 

 

 

 

            

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

@Delacroix,

 

Here's an excellent video about directing momentum, and feeling the extending of momentum in the golf swing.     

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus

[GreatStrike]

 

@Delacroix,

 

Watch this video of Justin Thomas' range session with his father Mike and his caddie prior to the 2021 Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship. 

 

I want you to get the sense that Justin is allowing (letting) his club's weight and momentum to make the swing for him. As strange as it sounds - you don't want the feeling that you are swinging the golf club, you want the feeling that the golf club is swinging itself - and you're just going along for the ride as the swing releases you. In other words, there is 'no add'. Justin Thomas is not trying to add any additional speed or energy to his club's momentum. His club's weight and momentum is all he needs to make a powerful, accurate and repeating golf swing! His goal is to allow (let) his golf club swing without any help or interference from himself. He learned many years ago that trying to add speed or energy to the club's momentum is a mistake, so he knows better than to even try!

 

When you first try to duplicate this feeling of having the golf club's weight and momentum make the swing for you you'll almost certainly feel like you're not giving it anywhere near all you should be giving it. You'll be more than a little bit tempted to [try to] add additional speed and energy to the club's momentum.  That's to be expected and just part of the necessary learning experience you'll master. The weight and momentum your club is carrying, along with physics, is all you need to achieve an exceptional golf swing.         

 

I understand that Ernie Els learned the same as a junior golfer growing up - maybe that's why he has that beautiful 'big easy' golf swing!  

 

Do you want to learn how a first-rate, quality 'release' is made without using any muscular force or manipulation to bring it about? The answer is quite the same as the swing itself - you must allow (let) the club's weight and momentum to make the swing with soft wrists, which in-turn will provide a flawless and effective release. When you use the club's weight and momentum to make the swing you'll learn to 'expect' a superb release to happen, and it will happen just as you expected it to happen... Need I tell you that trying to add muscular force in an effort to increase swing speed will not only destroy the swing, but will also prevent a good release?   

       

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar