Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

Travis from Lakeland,

 

From the description of your swing it sounds like you really (bigtime) feel the need to muscle your swing. That's not helping you at all to make a 'swinging swing' with your golf club.

 

Every time you interject muscular force into the swing at any point (e.g. from the top, midway or at the bottom) in an effort to hit the ball harder (further) or to square the clubface, you really destroy any chance that your golf swing will be a true 'swing'. If you do that even when swinging a weight around on the end of a string it will cause both the weight and the string to get all jerky and that once nice orbiting weight gets upset and becomes discombobulated and falls out of its orbit. So, how do we prevent that from happening? The answer is simple and the results are nothing like what you'd expect. The answer is to learn to swing at half speed. Seriously, swing at half the speed you typically swing a given club to hit the ball x distance. If I can convince you to swing at half speed do it, you will be amazed at what happens. It won't be easy to swing at half speed given your admitted habit of trying to muscle the swing, but I know you can do it if you will just give it an honest try.

 

Here is what you'll learn when you can get to the point where you can make six swings in a row at half speed and make decent contact with the ball at impact. You'll learn that swinging at half speed produces better distance, better ball flight, better distance control, better accuracy and better impact feel than your typical lumberjack 'watch me flex my muscles' golf swing. 

 

How does it happen that a swing that you make at half speed can be better than your best effort when displaying your lightning bolt speed using your manly brawn you ask? For one, getting rid of the contracted shoulder/arm/wrist/hand muscles helps a lot. For another, your rip-roaring muscular swing is very inefficient at producing swing speed because you upset and caused total disaster of the swing orbit which makes any hope of a pure swing impossible. Your half speed swing will top your muscular swing every time! Lastly, with a pure uninterrupted no-jerk swing the timing of the release will be spot on, and physics will be handling the pendulum levers without the interference you typically induce into your swing. Give it an honest to goodness try! Try to get six swings in a row at half speed without your typical muscular interference. Then eight swings in a row. By then you will have seen the light and the fruits of your labor!                     

 

    

 

     

Edited May 12, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[rolling green]

Hocus thanks for the advice. I’ve always found great success trying to swing at 1/2 speed as you describe. But I always revert back to swinging hard with the driver. Anytime I swing light or less with the driver I get 0 spin, ball goes straight but very low but runs out with less distance.  I find myself swinging harder and it infects my irons and the cycle begins again.   Any advice?

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, rolling green said:

Hocus thanks for the advice. I’ve always found great success trying to swing at 1/2 speed as you describe. But I always revert back to swinging hard with the driver. Anytime I swing light or less with the driver I get 0 spin, ball goes straight but very low but runs out with less distance.  I find myself swinging harder and it infects my irons and the cycle begins again.   Any advice?

 

@rolling green,

 

It's more a drill, much like trying to hit a particular club only half the distance it would normally travel, or hitting shots with your feet together. The reason for the low flight with zero spin with the driver is lack of adequate clubhead speed and very little loft. I'm guessing you are trying to maintain the half swing speed for the entire downswing from start down to impact. You may have even intentionally lowered your swing speed further after starting down in an effort to accomplish the drill.  You could counter that issue with the drill by swinging at half speed from start down only through midway down and then let it go freely through impact. Doing that should provide a freer release helping to increase clubhead speed some. The whole point of the drill is to learn to stop adding unnecessary muscular force to the swing, otherwise it upsets the dynamics of a swing.

 

One of the pitfalls of swinging at half speed is failure to engage and rotate the hips and torso which takes the legs out of use. That's one reason why I think practicing hitting balls from a sidehill lie with the ball above your feet is a really good routine and very helpful in learning your natural release action that mimics your release when swinging horizontally like a baseball swing. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:54 PM, rolling green said:

Hocus thanks for the advice. I’ve always found great success trying to swing at 1/2 speed as you describe. But I always revert back to swinging hard with the driver. Anytime I swing light or less with the driver I get 0 spin, ball goes straight but very low but runs out with less distance.  I find myself swinging harder and it infects my irons and the cycle begins again.   Any advice?

 

@rolling green,

 

I highly recommend that you get your wrists active and you want your wrists to be kinda flippy like Padraig Harrington says in his Part 1 video (below). Watch both his Part 1 and Part 2 'Get Your Wrists Active' videos as they are absolutely 100% spot on!

 

You'll learn a lot about how to make a sound golf swing and what your swing capabilities are. You'll also probably increase your distance by 25% to 30% and you'll have better clubface control too.   

 

There's little doubt that most amateur golfers' golf swings suffer largely from poor wrist action. This poor wrist action may be caused by trying to roll the hands over or square the clubface using muscular manipulation, or trying to maintain a flat left (lead) wrist throughout the swing, or trying to bow the lead wrist or add shaft lean through impact. Take the advice provided in these two Padraig Harrington 'Get Your Wrists Active' videos and your golf swing will make a monumental (impressive and overwhelming) improvement.     

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[KMeloney]

H_P -- I'm sure you're familiar with Manuel de la Torre's "swing down with (from?) the upper arms" swing idea. Does that idea jive with what you recommend? For me, it seems to. I've recently had some pretty eye-opening success with the thoughts of making a full shoulder turn, "collecting" the club in transition and directing the club head onto the arc down, and then just letting the club swing as an extension of my shoulder/torso turn. Walking 9 holes last night with these intentions I hit 3 shot from the rough that came out completely clean and sailed forever with a slight draw. Normally, I'd have a tendency to chop down on these shots, get down too deep into the grass, and get @ 70% out of the shot. I was really impressed with the results of these (and all, really) shots last night with this approach.

 

BTW, I'm not a follower of MDLT per se. It's just that the idea of swinging with the upper arms (which previously didn't make any sense to me), especially to someone who has muscled his swing for so long, is something that resonates with me now as a feel for getting the club to swing instead of man-handling it.

[GreatStrike]

7 hours ago, KMeloney said:

H_P -- I'm sure you're familiar with Manuel de la Torre's "swing down with (from?) the upper arms" swing idea. Does that idea jive with what you recommend? For me, it seems to. I've recently had some pretty eye-opening success with the thoughts of making a full shoulder turn, "collecting" the club in transition and directing the club head onto the arc down, and then just letting the club swing as an extension of my shoulder/torso turn. Walking 9 holes last night with these intentions I hit 3 shot from the rough that came out completely clean and sailed forever with a slight draw. Normally, I'd have a tendency to chop down on these shots, get down too deep into the grass, and get @ 70% out of the shot. I was really impressed with the results of these (and all, really) shots last night with this approach.

 

BTW, I'm not a follower of MDLT per se. It's just that the idea of swinging with the upper arms (which previously didn't make any sense to me), especially to someone who has muscled his swing for so long, is something that resonates with me now as a feel for getting the club to swing instead of man-handling it.

 

@KMeloney,

 

I admittedly am only vaguely familiar with the name Manuel de la Torre, but I'm not aware of his teachings or the swing method he teaches, therefore I'm unable to provide any meaningful discourse about the 'swing down with the upper arms' precept. My only response to the arms in the golf swing is that I'm a believer that the arms must be linked and in-sync with the golfer's shoulder/torso rotation, otherwise the golfer is asking for his arms to rotate at a different rpm than the rotational rpm of his shoulder/torso, which causes his arms to either drag behind his body rotation or causes his body to lag behind the speed of his arms - either way it's a mismatch and a loss of both clubshaft and clubface control is the result with the golfer's ability to truly 'swing' his golf club next to impossible.

 

To use an old style record player as an example, the center spindle of the record player represents the golfer's shoulders/torso and it rotates at [say] 33 rpm. The outside circumference edge of the vinyl record represents the golfer's arms and hands and they too by design rotate at exactly the same 33 rpm as the center spindle. They must, right? However, even when the golfer's arms and torso are linked and rotating at the same exact 33 rpm the golfer's arms and hands are traveling at a greater travel speed compared to his torso because the arms and hands are traveling a greater distance in the same period of time, like the circumference edge of the vinyl record. When the golfer's arms and torso are linked (matched) perfectly to rotate at the same rpm there is distinct conformity of balanced energy. But the sensation the golfer has when his arms and torso are nicely in-sync oftentimes makes him feel like he is not doing enough work and he needs to speed up his arms. That, of course, automatically makes his arms and torso fall out-of-sync! When/if the golfer's arms are made (manipulated) to travel faster (or slower) than his torso there has to be a mismatch in their representative rpms. This is the same as a golf swing that is out-of-sync. 

 

When a golfer's swing is out-of-sync the golfer finds that his clubface is oftentimes left open at impact (from having been drug slower or behind the rpm of his torso), or that he has purposely sped up his arms to make them move faster and his arms therefore outraced his torso's rpm which then causes his body rotation to stall, which in-turn causes his lead arm to jackknife and his lead wrist to break down due to the weight and momentum of his golf club coming to a quick, abrupt halt due to his body stall, then a massive flip takes place, scooping a big chunk of dirt and turf with the clubface likely missing the golf ball entirely.

 

When a golfer's arms' and shoulders' RPM is off or out-of-sync, the golfer's rhythm is off. When that happens the clubhead tries to overtake the hands and the hands try to overtake the turning of the shoulders. This leads to a loss of power an control. A golfer's rhythm is important to his success in swinging his golf club. Without good rhythm a good golf swing cannot be made. So, if Manuel de la Torre's teaching methods have popularized that the arms and torso should be in-sync, then his swing idea does indeed jive...    

 

             

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Shannon (MB-Grand Strand),

 

Yes, I am definitely an advocate of having a bit of left (lead) wrist extension at impact. It definitely increases clubhead speed and provides better clubface control too, especially for amateur golfers that have difficulty squaring their clubface at impact. Let me be clear, I do not like seeing lead wrist cupping (excessive extension) at any time in the backswing or the downswing. A smidgen of extension in the lead wrist at the top of the backswing is perfectly okay if that works for you and your grip.

 

A little bit of extension approaching impact offers advantages of freedom to make an unencumbered golf swing. There's nothing worse than feeling all bound-up, trying not to do this, or to do that.

 

Moving into a little bit of lead wrist extension just prior to impact can best be described as accomplishing two important things while making one action. Take an iron for example; you're wanting to run the clubface  into the golf ball just a couple of grooves up from the leading edge while delivering the clubhead to the ball slightly delofted with ample shaft lean and with your low point about 3-4 inches after ball contact - and you're wanting to do this with your lead wrist 'releasing' (a.k.a. giving way or breaking down) at the instant these two things take place. It's truly not that difficult to learn. Call it hand-eye coordination, or athletic ability - if a child can learn to do it, so can you! 

 

If you can learn to release a baseball where you don't throw the ball into the clouds above you, then you can learn to do this. Even if you have always been one to death-grip the club and block any release action, this should be easy to learn. Yes, it does take some practice in order to time the wrist extension to happen a split second before impact, but the more you practice it the more it begins to feel natural to you and the right thing to do. You'll learn to put your body and arms into position for the iron strike its low point well ahead of ball contact. You'll learn that tight lies in the fairway are preferred lies. It won't take long before you'll become so precise at timing the release perfectly you'll wonder what took you so long to figure this out.  You'll picture in your mind's eye your iron's clubface at impact being nicely delofted, but you'll quickly learn from experience that your lead wrist extension during impact actually complements that effect and provides you with great clubhead speed and the line of compression that compresses the ball to the maximum like you've never experienced, felt or heard from your impact before. The more you practice it, the better you'll get at doing it.

 

Take a look at this Alistair Davies video about wrist extension. Hopefully it will help open your eyes and mind enough for you to give lead wrist extension a go.   

 

PS - Thanks for the kind words. 'preciate it...      

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Follow up question from Travis (Can there be shaft lean and a release with lead wrist extension at the same time?)

 

Excellent question, Travis! 

 

Absolutely there can be both shaft lean and lead wrist extension taking place at the same time. At first thought you might think it is impossible or unlikely to have two opposing conditions (both shaft lean and lead wrist extension) happening at the same time, but actually that is exactly what you try to make happen - and it's not that difficult to accomplish. 

 

Think about it this way - mimic a 7 iron (~34°) at impact position with [say] 12° of shaft lean which produces about 22° of effective loft at impact. Who is to say that coming into impact with some amount of lead wrist extension can't at the same time also produce a sizable amount of shaft lean? All it takes is for the hands to be ahead of the clubhead. So, how would you go about making those seemingly disparate conditions (shaft lean, lead wrist extension and hands ahead of clubhead) happen all at the same time? 

 

Don't make too much out of it and confuse yourself over matters that will fall into place with some practice time at the range. We humans can usually find a way to do two or three things at the same time, even when they are all actions - especially when our hands/fingers, forearms and wrists are called on to perform those actions. Back in biblical days we learned that little David was able to swing a rock around in his sling pouch and then release the sling with the precision to pummel the giant Goliath with that rock. 

 

Once you practice introducing lead wrist extension into your golf swing you will find that it is really quite easy to have some lead wrist extension while at the same time your lead wrist and handle is leading or ahead of the clubhead at impact, which subsequently provides the shaft lean condition you desire. That takes care of all those diverse conditions! The only remaining condition you'll work out for your iron play is your 'low point', which can be anything from ½ inch to 3-4 inches ahead of ball-contact depending on your personal preference of being either a picker or a digger.  Have fun with it while learning. You can do it... 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Take a look at Shawn Clement's release action in the video below. Note his lead wrist condition at the top, at start-down, through impact and post impact. There's little doubt Shawn uses his club's weight and momentum to get the club to the other side of his hands as quickly as possible. That's clubhead speed! That can only be done with a free moving lead wrist joint. There's no holding angles or flat left wrist in his swing! Do you notice any lead wrist extension in his release action? Oh yeah!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many golfers become so mechanically minded that they don't swing the club - rather, they just move it from one position to another. The same can be said about body positions - don't be a body part position golfer!

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Brian Manzella 'Feel the Flick'

 

Brian Manzella explains the concept of 'Feel the Flick' lead wrist action as: The lead wrist is most flexed approaching impact - is less flexed at impact - and is most extended post-impact in the exit. 

 

Brian Manzella's 'Feel the Flick' lead wrist action is not any different from the lead wrist action of Shawn Clement's golf swing! 

 

Golfers have destroyed their golf swing and their golfing potential by the advice to maintain a FLW (flat left wrist).   

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Hal - Hopefully this will make some sense to you.

 

You want to make contact with the golf ball with a slightly descending angle of attack and pinch the ball on the bottom grooves of the clubface, and then flick the compressed/pinched ball into the air at about knee height. That's about the perception of what your process will be to make that happen and how you might envision it.

 

You may perceive it as needing a swing that produces a slight downward moving clubhead, a combination of shaft lean approaching impact along with a robust, free-moving lead wrist release timed precisely right at impact. 

 

 

  

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

Hal - Hopefully this will make some sense to you.

 

You want to make contact with the golf ball with a slightly descending angle of attack and pinch the ball on the bottom grooves of the clubface, and then flick the compressed/pinched ball into the air at about knee height. That's about the perception of what your process will be to make that happen and how you might envision it.

 

You may perceive it as needing a swing that produces a slight downward moving clubhead, a combination of shaft lean approaching impact along with a robust, free-moving lead wrist release timed precisely right at impact. 

 

 

  

 

Or Hal, just watch a couple of good vids from Monte that explain and demonstrate without all the thoughts.  

 

That's too much to be "thinking of" or too many feels to be worrying about and that description could easily and wrongly be interpreted by you on the range to make "flick" a "flip" trying to implement all that.

[GreatStrike]

Hal - Yes, I know - moving on...

 

It's mostly a matter of timing which we humans are excellent at. The better you are at timing the lead wrist extension (a.k.a. throw release) the more solidly you'll compress the ball and the more flush your impact with the golf ball will be. 

 

On the other hand, if you're like most amateur golfers physically trying to twist your forearms or using your trail hand in an effort to roll the hands over or add some power you'll weakly slap or wipe the ball with a poorly aligned clubface which produces practically zero compression on the ball. The ball is likely to be hit most anywhere carrying very little energy.        

 

Most adult golfers that have never achieved a sound release (except by mistake) are moderately quick to narrow down their timing to be able to deliver a superb release and very solid impact 7 out of 10 swings. Within just minutes of practicing their timing they can usually make near perfect releases 9 out of 10 times. 

 

Don't try to overuse the trail hand in making the release action. If anything, take your trail hand out of the action (maybe not to the extent you see Vijay Singh and Phil Mickelson do it) and allow your lead wrist to react to the club's weight and momentum to make the release (extension) happen naturally without any muscular help from you. 

 

 

 

Here's even more thoughts, ideas and feels pertaining to the release that may help you understand the movement more thoroughly.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Thanks goes out to one of Randy Smith's assistants at Royal Oaks Country Club in Dallas for this very timely Craig Hanson (World Class Golf Instruction) video about the release action and how the lead wrist moves into extension. 

 

 

BINGO!   BINGO!   BINGO!  

 

 

 

   

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Sabrina,

 

Thank you for your note. I'm glad to have opened your eyes and been helpful... 👍

 

Yes, Sabrina - I agree. The Golfing Machine book and instructors/teachers of the book's author Homer Kelley's methods have destroyed not only many tens of thousands of golf swings with the FLW (flat left wrist) prerequisite, but also it has destroyed the dreams and aspirations of many young golfers worldwide.    

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[SHAFUA]

@Hocus_Pocus

 

Thoughts on the shaking the hands with target drill... i found the shoulder tilt discussion around 3-5 minute mark a bit of a light bulb went off where he says that if you were to stand up straight and shake hands with the target ... then add tilt the clubface would be open 

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

23 hours ago, SHAFUA said:

@Hocus_Pocus

 

Thoughts on the shaking the hands with target drill... i found the shoulder tilt discussion around 3-5 minute mark a bit of a light bulb went off where he says that if you were to stand up straight and shake hands with the target ... then add tilt the clubface would be open 

 

 

 

 

 

@SHAFUA,

 

Good question...which leads directly into your method or pattern of release!

 

When/if you have a release method in which your trail hand is positioned at release (P8) where it is like you are shaking hands with the target your release method is based on purposely twisting (muscularly manipulating) the shaft to square the clubface at impact.

 

There's nothing wrong with releasing that way (and yes, the shoulder tilt will definitely have an influence and an effect on the clubface alignment).  However, this ''twisting' release method has some drawbacks unless you grew up swinging that way and have hit thousands and thousands of balls using that 'twist' release method to finely tune and hone your timing and feels. 

 

Anytime your swing requires that you twist the shaft to square the clubface you're at the mercy of having impeccable timing with muscular manipulation. With a 'twist' release you are far more likely to hit curved shots which are usually unpredictable which way they might curve, and that is when your timing is darn near spot-on. Since timing can be very fleeting your accuracy will likely be only as good as your timing on any given day. But, unfortunately that's not the only drawbacks!  When you decide to go after one and hit another clubhead speed gear you stand a really good chance of making a very poor swing because your power (speed) is probably coming from a body source that does not adapt well to the twisting effort that must come about from your forearms/wrists/hands that is used to twist the shaft. 

 

I personally think that a 'throwing' release is best suited for the majority of golfers unless as I've said; you grew up swinging with a twist release and have hit thousands and thousands of balls using that 'twist' method to fully master it and have honed your timing and feels.

 

Take a look at this excellent video (directly below) to understand the difference between a twist release and a throw release. You'll see the right hand 'shaking hands with the target' post-impact when using a twist release.  Contrarily, you'll see a flexed right wrist and a extended cupped left wrist post-impact with the hands moving around and behind the golfer when using a throw release instead of straight out toward the target with a twist release. You'll be told in the video that the swing should be on an arc which is easier to accomplish with a throw release whereas a twist release usually takes the path of being straight out toward the target (which naturally opens the clubface unless it gets twisted soon enough and fast enough!). You'll also see in the video that with a throw release you can (and should) actually start the throw action not only sooner in the downswing but when the hands are higher than waist level, which is far more likely to satisfy most golfers than the twist release that takes place deeper or later in the swing and with the hands below waist level.   

 

See how closely the throw release in this first video compares to the Craig Hanson video (2nd video) in this post in terms of the trail wrist flexing and the lead wrist extending.       

      

Hope this helps and gives you something to think about. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammer

[GreatStrike]

@SHAFUA,

 

These two Craig Hanson videos should help to better understand the release.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Delacroix]

Oh boy.

 

I took your advice HP and I weakened my grip quite significantly. It feels like my hands are more just on top of the grip. The "golf pride" lies right between my index and thumb claw of the right hand.

 

I recently focused on "feeling the weight" of the arm club unit as Shawn says. And how the backswing and followthrough are essentially mirror images. I would swing my G-Force back and forth. Back and forth. Just as Shawn describes. Feeling the weight. Feeling how it carries itself to where it wants to go. Really trusting the club. i believe in the PRO video you posted last page something clicked. We are SWINGING the club. Not leveraging it. I can swing a rope super hard and super fast. And when I do that I'm not HITTING with any muscle. My hands/wrists are simply swinging. I believe the PRO guy mentioned the swing as an energy transfer mechanism. You don't need to infuse anything. It's a momentum system. If you try to inject anything into it with actively holding or flicking with muscles it disrupts the track of momentum of the system.

 

So I concluded that these releases aren't something we try to actively do, but they simply come about from swinging motions you perform.

 

I really worked on just RELAXING. Hold the club but don't inject anything into the system with your hand and forearm muscles. And it was the best I've ever struck it. And the wrist extension just kind of seems to happen.

 

I have a heavy rope and an orange whip. I would hit one ball... then swing the orange whip and rope back and forth back and forth for a bit. Then pick up a club and mirror the effortless energy transfer I felt in a rope, and try to picture that process but with a golf club. No more hitting instinct.

 

Just have to get over the trust issues and let the energy transfer system happen.

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, Delacroix said:

Oh boy.

 

I took your advice HP and I weakened my grip quite significantly. It feels like my hands are more just on top of the grip. The "golf pride" lies right between my index and thumb claw of the right hand.

 

I recently focused on "feeling the weight" of the arm club unit as Shawn says. And how the backswing and followthrough are essentially mirror images. I would swing my G-Force back and forth. Back and forth. Just as Shawn describes. Feeling the weight. Feeling how it carries itself to where it wants to go. Really trusting the club. i believe in the PRO video you posted last page something clicked. We are SWINGING the club. Not leveraging it. I can swing a rope super hard and super fast. And when I do that I'm not HITTING with any muscle. My hands/wrists are simply swinging. I believe the PRO guy mentioned the swing as an energy transfer mechanism. You don't need to infuse anything. It's a momentum system. If you try to inject anything into it with actively holding or flicking with muscles it disrupts the track of momentum of the system.

 

So I concluded that these releases aren't something we try to actively do, but they simply come about from swinging motions you perform.

 

I really worked on just RELAXING. Hold the club but don't inject anything into the system with your hand and forearm muscles. And it was the best I've ever struck it. And the wrist extension just kind of seems to happen.

 

I have a heavy rope and an orange whip. I would hit one ball... then swing the orange whip and rope back and forth back and forth for a bit. Then pick up a club and mirror the effortless energy transfer I felt in a rope, and try to picture that process but with a golf club. No more hitting instinct.

 

Just have to get over the trust issues and let the energy transfer system happen.

 

@Delacroix,

 

I think you're on the correct path. One of the most difficult things to overcome is the 'relaxing' part and not injecting unnecessary torque into the swing in an effort to leverage the weight. Learning to get the swing started in a 'swinging' motion and then allowing the club's weight and momentum to perpetuate is the goal. A perfect example of this is 'swinging' a weight on the end of a string. If I handed you a string with a weight tied to its end and asked that you swing the weight around, you would perform the act flawlessly time and time again a hundred times in a row, wouldn't you? You would accomplish this act because you (1) knew how to get the swing started and you (2) allowed  the swing's weight and momentum to perpetuate and keep it going as if it was simply swinging itself. 

 

The only time you would have any problem performing this act of swinging a weight around on the end of a string is if you at first (a) failed to get the swing started [getting the weight started swinging] or you (b) attempted to inject an unnecessary torque into the swing which induced a jerk to the swinging action, causing the swinging weight to fall out of its smooth perpetuating orbital swinging action.

 

So, what have we learned? We learned that you must get the weight started swinging from the get-go. And, you must not attempt to inject unnecessary torque (muscular energy) into the swing. Think about this. Combining the first prerequisite with the second requisite produces a perfect swinging action. We learned that failure to accomplish one of them prevents the action entirely from ever happening or destroys the action from continuing. 

 

Think about how you got that weight on the end of the string started to swing around. You certainly didn't just start twirling your hand around in the space of a couple of inches, did you? You certainly didn't push on the string, did you?  Those two choices might likely be what a small child would try to do, but we adults know better. We adults innately have learned through experience that to get the weight started swinging around in a circular arc we must 'pull' on the string in a straight line and drag (pull) the weight into circular orbit (like pulling an arrow from a quiver angled on your back, which is what Dan Martin's 'The Pro' helps ingrains) Then, like magic we can easily increase the weight's velocity by 'gently' and 'smoothly' pulling a little harder on the string until that weight is 'swinging' around so crazy fast it's making a whirling sound as it cuts through the air. This action is not all that much different from what is needed to get a bullwhip started moving effectively in order to crack its tip end - a gentle and smooth pulling action in a straight line to get things started, then drag (pull) the whip into a circular arc. When the start-down begins you must guard against applying any pressure to the side of the shaft and you must not inject a jerk motion. The first move needs to be stretching (pulling in a straight line) the shaft longitudinally, then dragging it into your downswing hand path arc. Once you can accomplish that the rest of the story is all about the release!

 

I'll stop here and suggest that you watch the three Craig Hanson videos I have posted recently (duplicated in this post) to hopefully pick up on how his downswing (actually his transition from backswing to downswing) has a very distinct and wonderful change of momentum to it heading toward impact which mimics someone loading and then cracking a bullwhip. He gets his golf club swinging nicely from the get-go and then uses the club's swinging weight and momentum to his advantage - not by attempting to keep the swinging action going as if he was swinging a weight around and around on the end of a string, but by the onset of his release method, which he describes and illustrates in detail in his videos. One last point to consider - When David was whirling the rock around in his sling, he didn't just keep whirling (swinging) it around forever, he made a release action that flung the rock from his sling with such speed to hit Goliath in the head, knocking the giant down to the ground.   

 

Thoughts to consider:

1- How to get the backswing started gently and smoothly.

2- How to get the downswing pulling action of the club started in a straight line (like pulling an arrow from a quiver angled on your back, which is what Dan Martin's 'The Pro' helps ingrains ) and drag its weight into a circular arc. 

3- How to get the release action started and continued. 

 

 

Below are the three Craig Hanson videos about THE RELEASE which are very nicely described and detailed.  

 

                  

          

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Here's a bonus Craig Hanson video about lag and him detailing his distinctive downswing action in which he uses his hands and wrists to attain good shaft lean and to make an effective release action.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

This is an interesting image of Craig Hanson demonstrating how his lead wrist has extended (cuppy) as his trail wrist has flexed (arches) on his through swing side. This truly is the result of his release action. He could literally backhand slap someone square in their chest with his lead hand if they were standing  beside him facing the target. Notice how this is reminiscent of 'swinging left'!  In contrast, the typical handicap golfer's arms and hands chase out toward the target on their through swing side (with an open clubface), not directly off their left hip as Craig Hanson is demonstrating...        

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

CraigY,

 

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. Yes, it's definitely long but it has been viewed over 1½ million times, more than any other thread, and it also has a lot of followers.

 

I agree about what you think you're doing. It's clear from your swing videos that you're applying force to the side of the shaft with your right hand and fingers, which kicks the shaft outward and causes an over-the-top, outside-in swing path and a flip of the clubhead. (Note: The 3rd video link titled 'Face-on 2' did not work, but I saw enough in the other two videos.) What you are doing is very common, but you probably have never really thought about, or been told, what you could do with a simple grip change to prevent it. Let me try to help.

 

Your right hand is applying damaging force to the side of the shaft. The primary reason this is happening is because your grip is not allowing you to pull the club's handle in the same direction using both hands. Your right hand grip is positioned in a way that is better to push on the side of the shaft. That definitely needs to change. The right hand needs to be able to pull and aid the left hand in pulling on the handle in the exact same direction, not in a diverging angle direction.  So, what needs to be done for you to accomplish that?  Obtaining a much better right hand grip and understanding how the change in the right hand grip will suddenly allow you to put the force into a pure pulling force in the exact same direction as the pulling force from your lead hand.

 

Craig, Your left hand grip appears to be acceptable but I'd like to see two adjustments - a slightly stronger left hand grip showing at least 2½ knuckles, and a longer left thumb positioned slightly right of center.  The biggest grip change will be needed for your your right hand. 

 

Currently, I do not think your right hand's lifeline is folded over your left thumb. It appears the meaty part of the base of your right thumb is over your left thumb, which puts the right hand in a right side oriented position to powerfully push on the side of the shaft, which is not good... It's just a poorly constructed right hand grip.

 

The right hand's lifeline needs to encompass your left (long) thumb. This is the position it needs to be in for the right hand to be able to pull (in the exact same direction as the left hand) instead of pushing on the side of the shaft. If your left thumbnail is visible in the V space between the base of your index finger and your right thumb, that's perfectly okay and just confirms you have a long left thumb.  The thumb pad of your right thumb should be positioned almost on top of your left thumbnail, maybe slightly leftward.   

 

Practice taking this grip I've described (long left thumb and surround the left thumb with your right lifeline) with just your hands and no club.  I want you to imagine your left hand is gripping a rope hanging down from the clouds. With this grip you should be able to feel that you can pull down on the imaginary rope with both hands - that your right hand is fully connected with your left hand, and both your hands are engaged and up-to-the-task of pulling on the rope in the exact same downward direction - without the right hand separating or wanting to pull or push in a different direction. Once you're able to get this feel I want you to reposition your hands (keeping the same grip) over your right shoulder as if you were starting your downswing from the top. See if can feel that with this grip you can pull horizontally on an imaginary rope using both hands without your right hand wanting to get active pushing. Move your hands around (keeping your grip intact) to different positions - in front of you pulling vertically down, in front of your right shoulder pulling horizontally to the left, different positions - to get the feel that your two hands are able to work together to both pull in the same exact direction...without the right hand becoming a nuisance wanting to push in a divergent angle.

 

Below are some images to study. I want you to envision what you think the golfer's intention is with respect to their hands (grip) and the force their two hands are applying to the handle. Can you perceive that the golfer's intent is to have a grip in which both hands pull on the club's handle in the same exact direction?  You should get a distinct sense from the images that with their sound grip there is no chance their right hand will push on the side of the shaft...because both hands are pulling in the exact same direction.   That is the feel and sense that you want your grip to administer to you - that both hands are able to pull in the exact same direction without the feeling that the right hand or fingers are breakaway troublemakers. 

 

 

 

 

                        

           

 

 

 

 

This is what happens when push force is applied to the side of the shaft. 

 

   

Edited May 24, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

 

[jgonz69]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:45 PM, Hocus_Pocus said:

CraigY,

 

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. Yes, it's definitely long but it has been viewed over 1½ million times, more than any other thread, and it also has a lot of followers.

 

I agree about what you think you're doing. It's clear from your swing videos that you're applying force to the side of the shaft with your right hand and fingers, which kicks the shaft outward and causes an over-the-top, outside-in swing path and a flip of the clubhead. (Note: The 3rd video link titled 'Face-on 2' did not work, but I saw enough in the other two videos.) What you are doing is very common, but you probably have never really thought about, or been told, what you could do with a simple grip change to prevent it. Let me try to help.

 

Your right hand is applying damaging force to the side of the shaft. The primary reason this is happening is because your grip is not allowing you to pull the club's handle in the same direction using both hands. Your right hand grip is positioned in a way that is better to push on the side of the shaft. That definitely needs to change. The right hand needs to be able to pull and aid the left hand in pulling on the handle in the exact same direction, not in a diverging angle direction.  So, what needs to be done for you to accomplish that?  Obtaining a much better right hand grip and understanding how the change in the right hand grip will suddenly allow you to put the force into a pure pulling force in the exact same direction as the pulling force from your lead hand.

 

Craig, Your left hand grip appears to be acceptable but I'd like to see two adjustments - a slightly stronger left hand grip showing at least 2½ knuckles, and a longer left thumb positioned slightly right of center.  The biggest grip change will be needed for your your right hand. 

 

Currently, I do not think your right hand's lifeline is folded over your left thumb. It appears the meaty part of the base of your right thumb is over your left thumb, which puts the right hand in a right side oriented position to powerfully push on the side of the shaft, which is not good... It's just a poorly constructed right hand grip.

 

The right hand's lifeline needs to encompass your left (long) thumb. This is the position it needs to be in for the right hand to be able to pull (in the exact same direction as the left hand) instead of pushing on the side of the shaft. If your left thumbnail is visible in the V space between the base of your index finger and your right thumb, that's perfectly okay and just confirms you have a long left thumb.  The thumb pad of your right thumb should be positioned almost on top of your left thumbnail, maybe slightly leftward.   

 

Practice taking this grip I've described (long left thumb and surround the left thumb with your right lifeline) with just your hands and no club.  I want you to imagine your left hand is gripping a rope hanging down from the clouds. With this grip you should be able to feel that you can pull down on the imaginary rope with both hands - that your right hand is fully connected with your left hand, and both your hands are engaged and up-to-the-task of pulling on the rope in the exact same downward direction - without the right hand separating or wanting to pull or push in a different direction. Once you're able to get this feel I want you to reposition your hands (keeping the same grip) over your right shoulder as if you were starting your downswing from the top. See if can feel that with this grip you can pull horizontally on an imaginary rope using both hands without your right hand wanting to get active pushing. Move your hands around (keeping your grip intact) to different positions - in front of you pulling vertically down, in front of your right shoulder pulling horizontally to the left, different positions - to get the feel that your two hands are able to work together to both pull in the same exact direction...without the right hand becoming a nuisance wanting to push in a divergent angle.

 

Below are some images to study. I want you to envision what you think the golfer's intention is with respect to their hands (grip) and the force their two hands are applying to the handle. Can you perceive that the golfer's intent is to have a grip in which both hands pull on the club's handle in the same exact direction?  You should get a distinct sense from the images that with their sound grip there is no chance their right hand will push on the side of the shaft...because both hands are pulling in the exact same direction.   That is the feel and sense that you want your grip to administer to you - that both hands are able to pull in the exact same direction without the feeling that the right hand or fingers are breakaway troublemakers. 

 

 

 

 

                        

           

 

 

 

 

This is what happens when push force is applied to the side of the shaft. 

 

   

So you believe that the Pro by Dan Martin is a good way to train?

[GreatStrike]

18 hours ago, jgonz69 said:

So you believe that The Pro by Dan Martin is a good way to train?

 

 

 

@jgonz69 - I definitely do. Just watching videos of Dan Martin or students using 'The Pro' provides valuable knowledge pertaining to how the club should be moved in the downswing, especially at the very beginning of the downswing which is extremely important to get the swing started 'swinging' from the get-go.  As you are probably already aware, applying force to the side of the shaft destroys any chance of 'swinging' the club as it was meant to be used.

 

'The Pro' provides the similarity of pulling an arrow straight out from a quiver angled on the golfer's back.

 

In my post that you replied to I discuss the need to have a proper grip in which a pulling force is applied to the club's handle in the exact same direction by 'both' hands, not just one hand. Most amateur golfers with right side dominance will use their right hand/forearm/wrist/fingers to apply force incorrectly, divergent to the direction that is needed, which using 'The Pro' illustrates nicely.    

 

 

    

Edited May 26, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

@jgonz69 - You can certainly help yourself without the use of 'The Pro'. Let me help you along... 

 

The first step is to understand the concept of 'The Pro' and what it helps to make you accomplish. In short - 'The Pro' gets you to start the downswing in a way that resembles stretching the shaft longitudinally. It also gives you feedback when you fail to do it correctly. AND, it gives you feedback if you exert any right side force onto the side of the clubshaft.    

 

When practicing starting the downswing I would recommend that you do everything in your ability to take any and all influence from the  right side out of your downswing scenario. The dominant right side is a huge troublemaker!  Keep the right hand on the grip but try your very best not to exert any force onto the clubshaft (in any direction) with the right side. Just let the right hand go along for the ride without doing anything else. It will pay big dividends in your advancement by learning not to exert even an ounce of force from that right side. You can do it! 

 

Have a decent left hand grip showing 2½ knuckles. Have a good understanding in your mind's eye of how the clubshaft points at your target when at the top of your backswing. Envision how pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft (that is pointing at your target) with your left hand only - as if to stretch the shaft - will align the clubshaft with your left forearm (since no right side force is exerted on the shaft to kick it outward) in the early part of the downswing. That's a really good indicator that you're on the right path when you feel the clubshaft is matching up alignment with your left forearm movement. 

 

Don't try to speed up your left arm and definitely don't try add any help from the right side.  You should have a reasonably good delivery slightly from the inside when using only your left arm to pull on the clubshaft. You should experience some solid strikes and see soft draw ball flights as you progress. You should practice making contact with the ball with the sole of your club ¼ inch above the turf or mat. This is so you become aware of your swing's natural tendency to swing the clubhead in a slightly downward angle of attack in the impact zone.

 

Hope this helps...

 

 

 

This video (below) of Adam Scott starting his downswing should help you to envision how pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft (that is pointing at your target) with your left hand only - as if to stretch the shaft - will align the clubshaft with your left forearm (since no right side force is exerted on the shaft to kick it outward) in the early part of the downswing.  

 

 

 

           

 

     

 

  

Edited May 28, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[jgonz69]

1 hour ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

@jgonz69 - You can certainly help yourself without the use of 'The Pro'. Let me help you along... 

 

The first step is to understand the concept of 'The Pro' an what it tries to make you accomplish. In short - 'The Pro' tries to get you to start the downswing by stretching the shaft longitudinally. It also gives you feedback when you fail to do it correctly. AND, it gives you feedback if you exert any right side force onto the side of the clubshaft.    

 

When practicing starting the downswing I would recommend doing everything necessary to take any and all influence from the  right side out of your downswing scenario. It's a huge troublemaker!  Keep the right hand on the grip but try your very best not to exert any force onto the clubshaft (in any direction) with the right side.  It will pay big dividends in your advancement by learning not to exert even an ounce of force from that right side. You can do it! 

 

Have a decent left hand grip showing 2½ knuckles. Have a good understanding in your mind's eye of how the clubshaft should point at your target at the top of your backswing. Envision how pulling on the clubshaft that is pointing at your target - as if to stretch it - will align the clubshaft with your left forearm (since no right side force is exerted on the shaft) in the early to mid downswing. That's a really good indicator that you're on the right path when you feel the clubshaft is matching up with your left forearm movement. 

 

Don't try to speed up your left arm and definitely don't try add any help from the right side.  You should have a reasonably good delivery slightly from the inside by using only your left arm to pull on the clubshaft. You should experience some solid strikes and see soft draw ball flights as you progress. You should practice making contact with the ball with the sole of your club ¼ inch above the turf or mat. This is so you become aware of your swing's natural tendency to swing the clubhead in a slightly downward angle of attack in the impact zone.

 

Hope this helps...

 

           

 

     

 

  

Thanks for taking the time, I do have the Pro, gonna revisit while keeping in mind what you’ve said. I would love to get a lesson from Dan, what he says makes a lot of sense to me

[GreatStrike]

22 hours ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

@jgonz69 - You can certainly help yourself without the use of 'The Pro'. Let me help you along... 

 

The first step is to understand the concept of 'The Pro' and what it helps to make you accomplish. In short - 'The Pro' gets you to start the downswing in a way that resembles stretching the shaft longitudinally. It also gives you feedback when you fail to do it correctly. AND, it gives you feedback if you exert any right side force onto the side of the clubshaft.    

 

When practicing starting the downswing I would recommend that you do everything in your ability to take any and all influence from the  right side out of your downswing scenario. The dominant right side is a huge troublemaker!  Keep the right hand on the grip but try your very best not to exert any force onto the clubshaft (in any direction) with the right side. Just let the right hand go along for the ride without doing anything else. It will pay big dividends in your advancement by learning not to exert even an ounce of force from that right side. You can do it! 

 

Have a decent left hand grip showing 2½ knuckles. Have a good understanding in your mind's eye of how the clubshaft points at your target when at the top of your backswing. Envision how pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft (that is pointing at your target) with your left hand only - as if to stretch the shaft - will align the clubshaft with your left forearm (since no right side force is exerted on the shaft to kick it outward) in the early part of the downswing. That's a really good indicator that you're on the right path when you feel the clubshaft is matching up alignment with your left forearm movement. 

 

Don't try to speed up your left arm and definitely don't try add any help from the right side.  You should have a reasonably good delivery slightly from the inside when using only your left arm to pull on the clubshaft. You should experience some solid strikes and see soft draw ball flights as you progress. You should practice making contact with the ball with the sole of your club ¼ inch above the turf or mat. This is so you become aware of your swing's natural tendency to swing the clubhead in a slightly downward angle of attack in the impact zone.

 

Hope this helps...

 

 

 

This video (below) of Adam Scott starting his downswing should help you to envision how pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft (that is pointing at your target) with your left hand only - as if to stretch the shaft - will align the clubshaft with your left forearm (since no right side force is exerted on the shaft to kick it outward) in the early part of the downswing. 

 

           

 

     

 

  

 

@jgonz69 - There is one very important (often overlooked) benefit of having a sound left hand grip showing with 2½ knuckles. With an incorrect weak left hand grip which holds the handle basically in the palm of the left hand - the tendency is not to pull on the clubshaft in-line, longitudinally but instead to actually rotate the left forearm which pushes or kicks the clubshaft outward, outside and over-the-top - - this is exactly what you are trying to avoid if the right side exerts any force on the side of the shaft! You are much better off with a slightly strong left hand grip than a weak left hand grip for this reason. Experiment with a weak left hand grip and a stronger left hand grip to see (and feel) the difference it makes in starting the downswing by pulling on the clubshaft in-line longitudinally. 

 

Note in the video of Adam Scott how Adam's clubshaft and his left forearm are nicely aligned in the early stage of his downswing. This clubshaft/left forearm alignment is made possible by three things (1) his clubshaft pointing at target at the top, (2) his sound 2½ knuckle grip, and (3) by only his left hand pulling the clubshaft with no right side influence. 

 

 

    

 

             

Edited May 29, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Delacroix]

HP

 

I'd like to pick your brain

 

I recently over the last week went down the path of reading the SliceFixer 9 to 3 drill thread and all that. Not to slander SF he seems to be a very knowledgeable instructor and has done well to garner his following. And with the 9-3 dill I felt like I was "compressing" the crap out of the ball like I haven't before.

 

However part of the deal to attain this feel is to HOLD the right hand extension for as long as possible and just "rotate through". It seems very much like what Gankas teaches (whose lessons I subscribed to for a very long time). You just set the angle and just open up and turn through and everything will seem to work out. This is what I've been trying to do for 20 years.

 

I feel like golf has two camps. Angle holders - and Free Wheelers (or whatever you'd want to call it).

 

When I hold the angle my swing feels so clunky. There is no fluidity. It feels so jerky. I played lacrosse for like 15 years so I definitely understand the sensation of slinging a weight and releasing it correctly and letting the body and arms work together. Holding an angle (which I did for all of my amateur golf career) NEVER felt natural. Your methodology of tipping over etc definitely feels as close to that sensation I've felt in golf. - When I finally did your release it was like a blind person seeing for the first time. I'm not even kidding.

 

Today while playing my round I committed to holding the angle in the swing and see how I fared. And wedges to 9 iron felt pretty good. I mean I had a driver in my hand and it was the most ungodly unathletic thing ever.

 

So I just want to pick your brain about what you think of "holding the angle". I believe also in your "unscrew the screw" image you said the right hand MUST be in extension correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

When I do this "flip" I don't really feel any right hand angle holding.

 

Is "angle holding" reconcilable with your release methodology? Is it an either or type of camp you have to follow? My friend who is nearly scratch says he is frustrated how some people recommend turning the club over yet some recommend angle holding as well.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Delacroix