Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

@jgonz69 - Watch these two videos. The first video explains perfectly the absolute importance of pulling on the clubshaft in-line and not applying any force to the side of the clubshaft. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

15 hours ago, Delacroix said:

HP

 

I'd like to pick your brain

 

I recently over the last week went down the path of reading the SliceFixer 9 to 3 drill thread and all that. Not to slander SF he seems to be a very knowledgeable instructor and has done well to garner his following. And with the 9-3 dill I felt like I was "compressing" the crap out of the ball like I haven't before.

 

However part of the deal to attain this feel is to HOLD the right hand extension for as long as possible and just "rotate through". It seems very much like what Gankas teaches (whose lessons I subscribed to for a very long time). You just set the angle and just open up and turn through and everything will seem to work out. This is what I've been trying to do for 20 years.

 

I feel like golf has two camps. Angle holders - and Free Wheelers (or whatever you'd want to call it).

 

When I hold the angle my swing feels so clunky. There is no fluidity. It feels so jerky. I played lacrosse for like 15 years so I definitely understand the sensation of slinging a weight and releasing it correctly and letting the body and arms work together. Holding an angle (which I did for all of my amateur golf career) NEVER felt natural. Your methodology of tipping over etc definitely feels as close to that sensation I've felt in golf. - When I finally did your release it was like a blind person seeing for the first time. I'm not even kidding.

 

Today while playing my round I committed to holding the angle in the swing and see how I fared. And wedges to 9 iron felt pretty good. I mean I had a driver in my hand and it was the most ungodly unathletic thing ever.

 

So I just want to pick your brain about what you think of "holding the angle". I believe also in your "unscrew the screw" image you said the right hand MUST be in extension correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

When I do this "flip" I don't really feel any right hand angle holding.

 

Is "angle holding" reconcilable with your release methodology? Is it an either or type of camp you have to follow? My friend who is nearly scratch says he is frustrated how some people recommend turning the club over yet some recommend angle holding as well.

 

@Delacroix - Thanks for the question. To be very candid and honest, there are many methods to get the job done. There are pure swingers, there are hitters (sluggers), there are body rotators, and on and on. What may work for one likely won't work for another. The reasons are many; right/left side dominance, athletic abilities, innate feelings and senses, the ability to envision, to visualize, to imagine, the ability to perceive an object (e.g. golf club) being moved in-space over your right shoulder that you cannot actually see with your own eyes. Not everybody can use the same method that someone else uses or endorses because we are all a little different in so many different ways.

 

Think of all the various traits we humans have that precludes some of us to use certain methods whereas others can. Just to name a few traits: natural athleticism vs virtually no athleticism, ambidexterity, double jointed, left brain vs right brain, left eye dominant vs right eye dominant, fast talker vs slow talker. What swing method may work or benefit one person may be terrible for another person.  We've all seen the boy or man that simply cannot make an overhand pitch/throw - the view is; he throws like a girl. However, who knows - maybe that same person might make a terrific golfer because he or she has other traits that lend more toward swinging a golf club. No one person has all good traits, and no person doesn't have any traits. That's one reason why everyone's golf swing looks differently. Obviously the better players find what works for them on their own - or they are taught - methods/styles that fit their natural traits well. Some people can't balance themselves on either foot for 30 seconds. Some people can't walk on a balance beam or curb without falling off. Some people can't dance. Some people's hand-eye coordination is truly magical whereas others is atrocious.          

 

I would say that you are the perfect golf swing experimenter. You've been playing for a long time, experimenting and struggling for many years. You know what sometimes works and what never works. You know full-well by now that whatever you have tried can give temporary success but likely not through the entire bag, and sometimes not even for more than a few days at a time. IF YOU'LL LEARN TO SWING THE GOLF CLUB you'll never have to search for random tips or methods to repair your golf swing or make it temporarily usable.    

 

If you are really wanting to become a really good player I think you must learn to SWING the golf club. I would strongly encourage you to give it your all in learning to SWING the golf club. If you play right-handed, you need to build up your strength and your agility in your left side because SWINGING the golf club is all about the left side and that is KEY. If you are right side dominant (as most people are) there is no question that you can do amazing things with your right side - box/punch, pitch/throw ball, racket ball, tennis, Jai Alai, archery, shooting marksmanship - you're amazing at doing lots of things really, really good, especially with your dominant side!  But SWINGING a golf club (AT THIS TIME) is sadly not one of them. I think you already know that - but it needs to sink in if you are overcome this discrepancy you have with your all-important, high-priority, left side. If you are unwilling to work on making your left side as capable as your right side, then it is unlikely you'll ever get any better at golf...it's just that simple!   

 

Have you ever seen an experienced roofer switch his hammer to his other hand and pound nails into the roofing? He has learned over-time to be just as proficient using his hammer in either hand. Most of us can't comb our hair using our non-dominant hand - or brush our teeth using our non-dominant hand without jabbing our gums or covering our face with toothpaste - or shave using our non-dominant hand without gouging, scrapping and cutting our pretty face and making a bloody mess. This should give you my view of why some swing methods work for some but not for others...but also my view that most anyone can adapt and learn to use their non-dominant side with great efficiency and agility if they will only just work on it. Too many times we just fall back into our own bad habits without giving what we know we should be doing an honest to goodness try.    

 

If you can just learn to start the downswing by pulling in-line on the clubshaft (with a sound left hand grip showing 2½ knuckles and without any interference from your  right side) I'd wager $100 bucks you could quickly learn to strike every iron in your bag solidly on the sweetspot 20 times in a row without missing a shot - something typical handicap golfers cannot do. While your distance may not be quite what you are capable of producing I'd wager another $100 bucks that if you continued practicing SWINGING the golf club that your non-dominant left side will get much stronger and become more proficient and agile in just a matter of a few weeks time; really increasing your distance to what a solid amateur golfer achieves...and becoming so precise with your improved 'left' hand-eye coordination that you can run your clubhead into the golf ball with such precision that you're able to make contact with the sweetspot the size of a dime. You'll also learn that chipping is done by 'swinging' the golf club too.  I'd bet another $100 bucks that your handicap drops very quickly...and that you'll get great self-satisfaction in your improvement, and the unhappiness of your golfing buddies.            

 

I'm sure you know from this lengthy thread that I have discussed numerous methods and ways of moving a golf club - some ways that only a rare individual with some of those multiple traits could only find suitable for their game, but in my honest opinion there is really only 'one best way' to [literally] SWING a golf club and it absolutely must start with the first move of the downswing and it should never be interfered with - otherwise the swing is destroyed, which is what happens to most amateur's golf swings.  If you'll put your heart and soul into making your left side be as capable as your right side - then there is no limit on what you can do playing this great game called golf. 

 

 

Here's some videos of examples of a some people that may not have the best natural traits for things that require a bit of athleticism.  Good for some laughs too!

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Nickc]

Not sure if this vid had been posted in this thread, but here Bobby Jones talks about keeping the right hand out of it (at least at the beginning of the down swing)

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, Nickc said:

Not sure if this vid had been posted in this thread, but here Bobby Jones talks about keeping the right hand out of it (at least at the beginning of the down swing)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Asian golfers are taught how to 'swing' the golf club when they are young juniors, unlike most other parts of the world.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Ezgolfer]

13 hours ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

 

@Delacroix - Thanks for the question. To be very candid and honest, there are many methods to get the job done. There are pure swingers, there are hitters (sluggers), there are body rotators, and on and on. What may work for one likely won't work for another. The reasons are many; right/left dominance, athletic abilities, innate feelings and senses, the ability to envision, to visualize, to imagine, the ability to perceive an object (e.g. golf club) being moved in-space over your right shoulder that you cannot actually see with your own eyes. Not everybody can use the same method that someone else uses or endorses because we are all a little different in so many different ways.

 

Think of all the various traits we humans have that precludes some of us to use certain methods whereas others can. Just to name a few traits: natural athleticism vs virtually no athleticism, ambidexterity, double jointed, left brain vs right brain, left eye dominant vs right eye dominant, fast talker vs slow talker. What swing method may work or benefit one person may be terrible for another person.  We've all seen the boy or man that simply cannot make an overhand throw - the view is; he throws like a girl. However, who knows - maybe that same person might make a terrific golfer because he or she has other traits that lend more toward swinging a golf club. No one person has all good traits, and no person doesn't have any traits. That's one reason why everyone's golf swing looks different. Obviously the better players find on their own - or are taught - methods/styles that fit their natural traits well. Some people can't balance themselves on either foot for 30 seconds. Some people can't walk on a balance beam or curb without falling off. Some people can't dance. Some people's hand-eye coordination is magical whereas others is atrocious.          

 

I would say that you are the perfect golf swing experimenter. You've been playing fore a long time, experimenting and struggling for many years. You know what sometimes works and what never works. You know full-well by now that whatever you have tried can give temporary success but likely not through the entire bag, and sometimes not even for more than a few days at a time. 

 

If you are really wanting to become a really good player I think you must learn to SWING the golf club. I would strongly encourage you to give it your all in learning to SWING the golf club. If you play right-handed, learn to build up your strength and your agility in your left side because when SWINGING the golf club it's the left side that is KEY. If you are right side dominant (as most people are) there is no question that you can do amazing things with your right side - box/punch, throw ball, racket ball, Jai Alai, archery, shooting marksmanship - you're amazing at doing lots of things, especially with your dominant side!  But SWINGING a golf club (AT THIS TIME) is sadly not one of them. I think you already know that. 

 

Have you ever seen an experienced roofer switch his hammer to his other hand and pound nails into the roofing? He has learned over-time to be just as proficient using his hammer in either hand. Most of us can't comb our hair using our non-dominant hand - or brush our teeth using our non-dominant hand without jabbing our gums or covering our face with toothpaste - or shave using our non-dominant hand without gouging, scrapping and cutting our pretty face and making a bloody mess. This may give you my view of why some swing methods work for some but not for others...but also my view that most anyone can adapt and learn to use their non-dominant side with great efficiency if they will only just do it. Too many times we just fall back into our own bad habits without giving what we know we should be doing an honest to goodness try.    

 

If you can just learn to start the downswing by pulling in-line on the clubshaft (with a sound left hand grip showing 2½ knuckles and without any interference from your  right side) I'd wager $100 bucks you could quickly learn to strike every iron in your bag solidly on the sweetspot 20 times in a row without missing a shot - something typical handicap golfers cannot do. While your distance may not be quite what you are capable of producing I'd wager another $100 bucks that if you continued practicing SWINGING the golf club that your non-dominant left side will get much stronger and become more proficient and agile in just a matter of a few weeks; really increasing your distance to what a solid amateur golfer achieves...and becoming so precise with you improved 'left' hand-eye coordination that you can run your clubhead into the golf ball and make contact with the sweetspot the size of a dime.  You'll also learn that chipping is done by 'swinging' the golf club too.  I'd bet another $100 bucks that your handicap drops quickly...and that you'll get great satisfaction in your improvement, and the unhappiness of your golfing buddies.            

 

You know from this lengthy thread that I have discussed numerous methods and ways of moving a golf club - some ways that only a rare individual with some of those multiple traits could find suitable, but in my honest opinion there is really only 'one best way' to [literally] SWING a golf club and it absolutely must start with the first move of the downswing and it should never be interfered with - otherwise the swing is destroyed, which is what happens to most amateurs' golf swings.  If you'll put your heart and soul into making your left side be as capable as your right side - then the sky is the limit on what you can do playing this great game called golf. 

 

 

Here's some videos of examples of a some people that may not have the best natural traits for things that require a bit of athleticism.  Good for some laughs too!

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

Great post … 

[GreatStrike]

Here is nice video that discusses the lead arm's acceleration and the importance of the lead arm's free-moving wrist joint -  and how a rapid deceleration (a.k.a putting on the brakes) provides what is necessary for a sound release action, which helps increase your clubhead speed.

 

The same situation applies concerning how the swing is first started and the importance not to destroy the swing by trying to add force by the right hand. Nothing has changed in that regard - you're still stretching the clubshaft longitudinally from the get-go of the downswing. 

 

Naturally, you'll want to spend some time on the range improving your lead arm's strength and agility needed to accelerate the lead arm swing, and to work on fine-tuning your hand-eye coordination (timing) of your 'braking action' so your free-moving lead wrist joint makes a sound release for maximum clubhead speed.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

DaveAz - Thanks for the note and your kind words.

 

Your inability to start the downswing effectively by pulling in-line, longitudinally on the clubshaft from the top when the clubshaft is basically horizontal and pointing at your target is likely the result of a poorly anatomical constructed left hand grip, which is too weak. When the lead hand grip is too weak it is not turned (rotated or 'twisted') enough clockwise. You may think a few degrees of grip position doesn't really matter, but I can assure you it matters a LOT!

 

What happens when your lead hand grip is too weak is that your left forearm and wrist is in a weak and poor anatomical position to be able to pull on the clubshaft as if to stretch it. 

 

You may wonder why amateurs ever choose a weak lead hand grip to begin with. It's because a weak grip provides the most comfort and is the easiest to make - it's just not made correctly and the comfort is deceptive. I can assure you the best comfort and the easiest to make grip does NOT make for the best outcome when swinging a golf club!    

 

A grip that is too weak also is a very common cause of early extension and casting because it puts the wrist joint in an uncomfortably weak position in which the natural tendency is to relieve the discomfort by opening the forearm-to-wrist angle, thus early extending or casting.  Grab a club and see for yourself which is best to accomplish 'stretching the shaft' to begin the downswing - a weak grip versus a 'twisted' 2½-3 knuckle lead hand grip.  Choose the slightly uncomfortable 'twisted' forearm/hand grip over the most comfortable for the best way to hold the club in order to make a sound golf swing... 

 

Apart from making sure your dominant right side (hand, forearm & shoulder) does not apply any force onto the clubshaft at any time during the downswing - beginning at the very start of the downswing - your first charge is to make sure your grip actually puts your lead hand and forearm in the best anatomical position to pull in-line, longitudinally, on the clubshaft.

 

What you will find is that when your lead hand grip is in the best anatomical position to pull in-line, longitudinally, on the clubshaft it becomes much easier to keep the trouble-inducing right hand and right side at bay so it does not interfere with the swing by applying any force onto the clubshaft.    

 

With a correctly 'twisted' 2½-3 knuckle (slightly uncomfortable) lead hand grip you are taking care of two common problems (early extension & the inability to pull in-line on the clubshaft) in the downswing with one easily made correction.

 

I hope this helps...  

 

 

    

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

 

Quote

Liveonce said: Hocus_Pocus - Do you mind if I send you a short Face on and DTL to take a peek at?
 

 

@Liveonce - Can you post them on this thread? 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

DaveE (Tulsa) - Thanks for the note. It appears that your lead wrist and hand is not providing the 'twisted structure' needed in the backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing. When the lead wrist is not engaged with proper tension and 'twisted' the golf club is being gripped like a rag doll is holding it. You've got to get into a stronger lead hand/wrist grip position that feels 'twisted' and a bit uncomfortable...and you must maintain that that feeling during the backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing.

 

Look at the images below and try to imagine how these tour player's lead forearm, wrist and hand must feel to them. You should get the sense that their lead forearm, hand and wrist is twisted, under tension, and somewhat uncomfortable. That's perfect! 

 

 

          

 

  

 

I like a semi-strong grip with 2½-3 knuckles showing. I like the wrist and hand to be 'load-twisted'. Imagine that your wrist and hand is twisted and under tension like this spring (see the spring image below). When the load-twisted wrist and hand is maintained your lead forearm, wrist and hand are in a strong, powerful structured position to control and swing the golf club as it should be done. Without this structured position the wrist and club is rag doll lolly-gagging with no control or purpose, just flapping around. Starting with a stronger grip that is already pre-twisted is very beneficial to achieve what you hopefully can sense by looking at these player's lead forearm, wrist and hand.

 

The last thing you want is a weak grip - which is borderline what you have now -  or trying to have a flat left wrist. You want your hold on the club to be uncomfortable! 

 

Hold your hand out in front of you with the palm down and c0ck your wrist. You should see a slight cup in the wrist and the wrist will feel twisted and somewhat uncomfortable.  You'll only get this feeling if you begin with a stronger grip. That's the feeling you want in your backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing. 

 

It will almost certainly greatly improve your kinematic sequencing and should help tremendously to eliminate your desire to come over-the-top or use your right hand which causes your casting and flipping. The right hand usually kicks-in causing trouble because the lead wrist is not is a strong position, and instead is wobbly without much structure. You'll find it easier to swing on-plane, shallow the club and to come into the impact zone from the inside.  

 

I hope this helps!            

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Rodney (AZ) -

 

Here are some questions for you to think about that will should help you to decide to change your weak one-knuckle grip to a more favorable and appropriate 2½-3 knuckle grip.

 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able anatomically to obtain a maximum wrist c0ck? 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able anatomically to sustain the wrist c0ck in the downswing?  

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to pull longitudinally in-line on the clubshaft in the early downswing? 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to naturally shallow the club in the downswing?   

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to naturally prevent the club from moving out over-the-top in the downswing? 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to curb (keep in check) the use of the right in the downswing? 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to swing the club on-plane? 

 

Is a stronger lead hand grip better able to naturally square the clubface through impact?

 

The answer to all of these questions is a resounding 'YES'! 

 

 

If you know how to throw a football with a tight spiral then you know that it's all about the wrist configuration and the action that condition gives.. It's much the same with your grip and the golf swing...       

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Chunkitgood]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:16 PM, Hocus_Pocus said:

DaveE (Tulsa) - Thanks for the note. It appears that your lead wrist and hand is not providing the 'twisted structure' needed in the backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing. When the lead wrist is not engaged with proper tension and 'twisted' the golf club is being gripped like a rag doll is holding it. You've got to get into a stronger lead hand/wrist grip position that feels 'twisted' and a bit uncomfortable...and you must maintain that that feeling during the backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing.

 

Look at the images below and try to imagine how these tour player's lead forearm, wrist and hand must feel to them. You should get the sense that their lead forearm, hand and wrist is twisted, under tension, and somewhat uncomfortable. That's perfect! 

 

 

          

 

  

 

I like a semi-strong grip with 2½-3 knuckles showing. I like the wrist and hand to be 'load-twisted'. Imagine that your wrist and hand is twisted and under tension like this spring (see the spring image below). When the load-twisted wrist and hand is maintained your lead forearm, wrist and hand are in a strong, powerful structured position to control and swing the golf club as it should be done. Without this structured position the wrist and club is rag doll lolly-gagging with no control or purpose, just flapping around. Starting with a stronger grip that is already pre-twisted is very beneficial to achieve what you hopefully can sense by looking at these player's lead forearm, wrist and hand.

 

The last thing you want is a weak grip - which is borderline what you have now -  or trying to have a flat left wrist. You want your hold on the club to be uncomfortable! 

 

Hold your hand out in front of you with the palm down and c0ck your wrist. You should see a slight cup in the wrist and the wrist will feel twisted and somewhat uncomfortable.  You'll only get this feeling if you begin with a stronger grip. That's the feeling you want in your backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing. 

 

It will almost certainly greatly improve your kinematic sequencing and should help tremendously to eliminate your desire to come over-the-top or use your right hand which causes your casting and flipping. The right hand usually kicks-in causing trouble because the lead wrist is not is a strong position, and instead is wobbly without much structure. You'll find it easier to swing on-plane, shallow the club and to come into the impact zone from the inside.  

 

I hope this helps!            

 

 

 

I’ve been experimenting with more left arm  external rotation combined with left forearm pronation.

 

Is this the “twist” of which you speak?

[Delacroix]

Coming to reply to this great topic again.

 

Still working at it. It seems like this is the way to swing.

 

However this is so easy to do with a wedge or a 9 to 8 iron. I finally have that impact sound I've always wanted. However with like a 6iron, and then driver I cant quite get the hold of it.

 

I think I end up rolling the club TOO soon. I have a fairly strong grip how you like it.... just not sure if I should slow down the rate of the twist, or if I should just try and twist LATER

[GreatStrike]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:24 PM, Delacroix said:

Coming to reply to this great topic again.

 

Still working at it. It seems like this is the way to swing.

 

However this is so easy to do with a wedge or a 9 to 8 iron. I finally have that impact sound I've always wanted. However with like a 6iron, and then driver I cant quite get the hold of it.

 

I think I end up rolling the club TOO soon. I have a fairly strong grip how you like it.... just not sure if I should slow down the rate of the twist, or if I should just try and twist LATER

 

 

@Delacroix - You've kinda lost me a little.  The new fairly strong grip is fine. but rolling too soon - I don't understand that. Let's talk about the twist in hopes it's better understood, when and how it's done to set you on a better track. 

 

I like to think of 'Twist Loading the Lead Wrist to Start the Backswing'.  Before actually starting the backswing it may help to exchange (substitute) your [likely] wobbly loose waggle for levering or hinging it back by twist loading the lead wrist. Let me define what I mean by twist loading the lead wrist..

 

If you are setup at address to strike an iron shot the shaft is basically in a position that could be described as a straight extension of your lead arm/hand. This is where you change how you start your backswing. I want you to start your backswing by moving the club toward the P2 position (clubshaft parallel with ground on takeaway) by slowly and methodically twisting (torqueing) your lead wrist while at the same time starting to c0ck your lead wrist. Twist Loading is a combination of twisting and cocking the lead wrist. You'll have a slight cup or extension in the lead wrist when you lever the club into the backswing.  Twist loading the club is not easy to do if you aren't used to doing it and have built up some lower forearm/wrist/hand strength. It's a feeling of loading a coiled spring, by twisting the spring even tighter. The move is done smoothly, even slowly. You should get the feeling of it by starting with replacing your waggle with twist loading. Practice levering or hinging the club back toward P2 (not all the way to P2 while getting the feel for doing it) by twist loading the club back. Some may call this a form of presetting the wrist, but presetting in my thinking is almost fully completing the wrist c0ck right away at the start of the backswing. Twist Loading is a more gradual, concerted method of beginning the combination of both backswing and cocking process. It's quite the opposite of loosely taking the club into the backswing and loosely cocking the wrist somewhere in the backswing or at the top and then immediately uncocking the wrist early in the downswing, which is typical for many amateurs.     

 

Once you get the hang (feel) for how the twist loading makes your lead wrist and hand feel 'twisted/ torqued' you'll appreciate how easy it is to guide the club into a good backswing position when you have this feeling and maintain its control. But equally important is how - with a fairly strong grip along with twist loading -  you have an excellent wrist c0ck angle that happens automatically with the levering back action of twist loading (a good wrist c0ck is something you probably never experienced with your weak grip and your backswing method). Twist Loading the lead wrist to start the backswing (lever the club back) changes everything for the better. So, what's next that you do now that you understand twist loading the lead lower forearm/wrist/hand? Primarily it is to sustain or maintain the rather uncomfortable twist loading of the lower forearm/wrist/hand from the top and into the downswing.   

 

Your task now is to sustain or maintain the twist loading in the downswing. And you do that while stretching the clubshaft longitudinally in the downswing with your twist loaded wrist maintained. Don't let it become untwisted - unloaded, because that is the swing and the wrist action of a beginner golfer. Maintaining the twist loading will feel a little uncomfortable until you get used to it. You should key on that feeling - strive for it!  Your twist loaded lower forearm/wrist/lead hand becomes like a coiled spring in the downswing, able to sustain your newfound wrist c0ck angle. Maintaining your twist loading in the downswing will explosively make your release happen at just the right time, so don't be concerned that maintaining it will cause a block or handle dragging. it won't take long to get use to doing this. You'll find that maintaining the twist loading in the downswing will allow you to naturally have a delivery path nicely coming from the inside. And by maintaining twist loading in the downswing it is practically impossible for the right hand to take over, and those over-the-top swings are a thing of the past...     

 

Hope this helps!            

 

This picture of a twisted spring reminds me of how the lower forearm/wrist and hand feels and looks as an inanimate object when twist loaded.  

       

 

 

 

          

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[KMeloney]

Hocus -- I'm not following the "twist" aspect of the lead wrist in your post above. Is this an active, clockwise (to the right for righties) movement of the lead had? Do you move the lead hand into that position, or does is start in that "torqued" position?

 

Thanks.

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Hocus -- I'm not following the "twist" aspect of the lead wrist in your post above. Is this an active, clockwise (to the right for righties) movement of the lead had? Do you move the lead hand into that position, or does is start in that "torqued" position?

 

Thanks.

 

@KMeloney- Thanks for the question.

 

The lead wrist (lower forearm/wrist/hand) is actively moved ('twist loaded' as I call it) clockwise from the beginning of the backswing. This action actually starts the establishment of the 'wrist set' which is what produces the lever angle and ultimately the wrist c0ck that permits this lever action to happen. (Levering the club from address position toward P2 (clubshaft parallel with ground) should provide you with what the 'twist loading' is to accomplish - in such a way that it aids or helps set the club in a good position throughout the backswing and at the top, and aids or helps retain the angle and maintains a good club position in the downswing as long as you retain this 'twist loading' [uncomfortable] feeling of the lower forearm/wrist/hand in the downswing. 

 

The golfer's grip must be the recommended or accepted standard of being slightly strong (2½-3 knuckles showing). It should be noted that if the grip is too weak (too much in the palm or the left thumb not slightly on the rear side of the grip) it is practically impossible to start the backswing correctly to obtain adequate wrist c0ck (and lever angle). Also, a weak grip prevents the golfer from naturally sustaining wrist c0ck in the downswing  and having a natural release (and squaring of the clubface) in the impact zone.        

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

The following was taken from a swing instructor's advice to one of his students that just couldn't accomplish what the instructor was asking his student to do:

 

The instructor said about his student - He would always manage to turn his shoulders a little first in the downswing, so when he brought his hands down he brought them down outside.  He always wanted to use his hands to hit the ball, so he would release his lead wrist angle too soon.

 

Finally, I said to him; "How do you feel when you are at the top of the swing?"

 

"When I go there by myself I feel comfortable "he replied," but when you put me there with my awkwardly strained left wrist I am uncomfortable."

 

That was the clue!

 

"Okay "I said. "Just go to the top a few times the way I want you to go, so that you are uncomfortable."  He did.

 

"Now," I said; "Go up the same way, only stay uncomfortable as you come down to the ball."

 

He followed the instructions (staying uncomfortable) and drilled a 7 iron that was practically perfect - inside out with a late hit. You could see a light go on inside him!

 

 

 

 

This same advice - to stay uncomfortable (with your 'twist loaded' wrist) as you come down to the ball is needed...    

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[KMeloney]

My grip is and always has been strong, so that part is a non-issue. Beyond that, are you talking about maintaining the cup in the lead wrist? To the top, and down through the swing? Is this "twist" kind of an anti-flat-left-wrist feeling to establish and maintain? Or am I looking at this wrong?

[GreatStrike]

5 hours ago, KMeloney said:

My grip is and always has been strong, so that part is a non-issue. Beyond that, are you talking about maintaining the cup in the lead wrist? To the top, and down through the swing? Is this "twist" kind of an anti-flat-left-wrist feeling to establish and maintain? Or am I looking at this wrong?

 

Most people will have a slight extension or cupping in their lead wrist when straining to lever or hinge the club back toward P2 (which causes the wrist to undergo both a cocking and a twisting motion (what I refer to as 'twist loading').  It's this awkwardly strained or uncomfortable feeling (of the combined levering and twisting of the lead wrist area - comprised of the lower forearm/wrist/hand) that is maintained in the backswing and is vitally important to be sustained in the downswing until the release naturally happens (due to the uncomfortable wrist condition cannot be held any longer). 

 

To specifically answer your question - chances are good that most people will possess the slight extension or cupping of their lead wrist as long as they continue to maintain the somewhat uncomfortable 'twist loading' wrist.  Hopefully this answers your question...

 

 

One of the best examples of seeing the positive results of 'twist loading' the lead wrist is to practice chipping.  Sustaining the twist loading of the lead wrist provides a direct, very solid, almost explosive impact...but relieving this uncomfortable 'twist loading' wrist condition leaves behind an unruly, wayward, unconnected, loose, wobbly wrist joint where the clubface and clubhead can end up going most anywhere - but seldom making a crisp chip.           

 

 

 

     

Edited July 19, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Carlito]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:03 AM, Hocus_Pocus said:

I want you to start your backswing by moving the club toward the P2 position (clubshaft parallel with ground on takeaway) by slowly and methodically twisting (torqueing) your lead wrist while at the same time starting to c0ck your lead wrist. Twist Loading is a combination of twisting and cocking the lead wrist. You'll have a slight cup or extension in the lead wrist when you lever the club into the backswing. 

          

 

Epic thread, thank you HP...

 

Do you think it is the best way to finish the "twist loading" by reaching P2? 

How can the right hand support this motion? 

What do you think about deepening the "twist loading angles" in the downswing?

 

Thank you for your time. 

[Millbrook]

Does the twist loading have the effect of keeping the club face pointing down the plane - some would call it closed but actually it would be square.

[KMeloney]

19 hours ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

 

Most people will have a slight extension or cupping in their lead wrist when straining to lever or hinge the club back toward P2 (which causes the wrist to undergo both a cocking and a twisting motion (what I refer to as 'twist loading').  It's this awkwardly strained or uncomfortable feeling (of the combined levering and twisting of the lead wrist area - comprised of the lower forearm/wrist/hand) that is maintained in the backswing and is vitally important to be sustained in the downswing until the release naturally happens (due to the uncomfortable wrist condition cannot be held any longer). 

 

To specifically answer your question - chances are good that most people will possess the slight extension or cupping of their lead wrist as long as they continue to maintain the somewhat uncomfortable 'twist loading' wrist.  Hopefully this answers your question...

 

 

One of the best examples of seeing the positive results of 'twist loading' the lead wrist is to practice chipping.  Sustaining the twist loading of the lead wrist provides a direct, very solid, almost explosive impact...but relieving this uncomfortable 'twist loading' wrist condition leaves behind an unruly, wayward, unconnected, loose, wobbly wrist joint where the clubface and clubhead can end up going most anywhere - but seldom making a crisp chip.           

 

 

 

     

Thanks for the reply. I THINK I might understand. Let’s see if I can be sure with this next question: If you consider the position with the club at the top, parallel to the ground, and pointed down the line, is the twisted feeling of the left wrist felt by way of the left wrist being cupped, cocked, and feeling like it’s trying to push the club (head) to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position? Is the feeling that the left wrist turns toward and collapses into the left hand’s snuff box?

 

Asked another way, if you held your left arm in front of you, gave the “thumbs-up” sign with your wrist as cocked-back toward you as possible, and then rolled your thumb/hand slight to the right while still maintaining the cocking pressure back at you, is this the feel?

[GreatStrike]

22 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

Thanks for the reply. I THINK I might understand. Let’s see if I can be sure with this next question: If you consider the position with the club at the top, parallel to the ground, and pointed down the line, is the twisted feeling of the left wrist felt by way of the left wrist being cupped, cocked, and feeling like it’s trying to push the club (head) to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position? Is the feeling that the left wrist turns toward and collapses into the left hand’s snuff box?

 

Asked another way, if you held your left arm in front of you, gave the “thumbs-up” sign with your wrist as cocked-back toward you as possible, and then rolled your thumb/hand slight to the right while still maintaining the cocking pressure back at you, is this the feel?

 

Yes, on the last paragraph.  Not so sure I understand the 'feeling like it’s trying to push the club (head) to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position' comment. 

 

At the top the clubshaft should be pointing at the target or slightly parallel left of the target. The clubshaft should not cross the line (be pointing off the target). The clubhead should not be laid-off. The clubface will be angled or aligned pretty much with your lead forearm or your lead wrist (that likely has a little cup to it). I don't follow you about feeling like it's trying to push the club (head)  to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position... 

[GreatStrike]

@KMeloney - The best way to get a good sense for the results of 'twist loading' the club in the backswing is to practice hitting 10-12 foot (air distance) chip shots with [say] an 8-iron. Lever the club back just a little with 'Twist Loading' (you're not wanting to hit the ball but 10-12 feet in the air) and make sure to retain the 'Twist Loading' on the through swing, hitting the ball. You should get crisp, explosive little chip shots that get airborne easily, have good distance and direction control and carry nice spin. The backswing is where 'Twist Loading' condition is created, and the downswing is where the condition is sustained.

 

If you can throw a spiral football you know that the hand and wrist needs to be a bit stressed or twisted to load and unload the wrist joint so the football comes off the hand/fingers with a tight, explosive spiral. "Twist Loading' is much the same principle...            

[Carlito]

[KMeloney]

23 hours ago, Hocus_Pocus said:

 

Yes, on the last paragraph.  Not so sure I understand the 'feeling like it’s trying to push the club (head) to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position' comment. 

 

At the top the clubshaft should be pointing at the target or slightly parallel left of the target. The clubshaft should not cross the line (be pointing off the target). The clubhead should not be laid-off. The clubface will be angled or aligned pretty much with your lead forearm or your lead wrist (that likely has a little cup to it). I don't follow you about feeling like it's trying to push the club (head)  to a laid-off/left of the target and downward-pointing position... 

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the motion of the left hand/wrist to "twist-load." I wasn't saying that the club should be more than parallel and across the line at the top -- I'm asking whether that's the loaded/twisted up force being applied by the left hand at the top (such that the club head would move that way if the right hand and backswing motion didn't work against it).

 

If my last paragraph was correct, then I must have the feeling correct.

 

Thank you!

[KMeloney]

3 hours ago, Carlito said:

 

Um... Looks like in #5 they're showing the hand/wrist rotating counter-clockwise but imparting clockwise rotation on the ball. Not a great illustration!

[GreatStrike]

42 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the motion of the left hand/wrist to "twist-load." I wasn't saying that the club should be more than parallel and across the line at the top -- I'm asking whether that's the loaded/twisted up force being applied by the left hand at the top (such that the club head would move that way if the right hand and backswing motion didn't work against it).

 

If my last paragraph was correct, then I must have the feeling correct.

 

Thank you!

 

Quote

If you held your left arm in front of you, gave the “thumbs-up” sign with your wrist as cocked-back toward you as [much as] possible, and then rolled your thumb/hand slight to the right while still maintaining the cocking pressure back at you, is this the feel?

 

@KMeloney - I think you have it... It should make the wrist/hand feel somewhat strained and uncomfortable.  The way this lower forearm/wrist/hand condition/action moves the club, it positions it nicely throughout the backswing...and also (when continued to be sustained in the downswing) moves and positions the club wonderfully during the downswing. 

 

As an aside, when chipping you'll want to retain the 'twist loading' through impact. However, with a fuller swing of the club you'll find that retaining the 'twist loading' actually enhances an automatic, well-timed release to happen. During a full swing you simply cannot prevent the release (uncocking) from happening - and the reason this is the case is because the wrist/hand when 'twist loaded' is in a purposely strained or weakened wrist joint condition and literally must naturally uncock (release) when the swing force overpowers your ability to prevent it. You'll find the timing of the release to be magnificently perfect!            

 

 

[Carlito]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:01 PM, KMeloney said:

 

 

Asked another way, if you held your left arm in front of you, gave the “thumbs-up” sign with your wrist as cocked-back toward you as possible, and then rolled your thumb/hand slight to the right while still maintaining the cocking pressure back at you, is this the feel?

Many thanks both of you. This was the missing piece in understanding the twist loading. 

[Carlito]

On 6/24/2022 at 4:16 AM, Hocus_Pocus said:

 

 

Hold your hand out in front of you with the palm down and c0ck your wrist. You should see a slight cup in the wrist and the wrist will feel twisted and somewhat uncomfortable.  You'll only get this feeling if you begin with a stronger grip. That's the feeling you want in your backswing, at the top and throughout the downswing.    

 

 

 

 

Other description but the same motion. Correct?

[GreatStrike]

9 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Other description but the same motion. Correct?

 

Yes, I'd say it's essentially the same - one description started off with thump up and cocking the wrist up before the forearm is rotated to lever or hinge the club back toward the P2 position - whereas the other description started off with the forearm already rotated with the palm down and then cocking the wrist, which both descriptions  produce the same motion to lever or hinge the club back toward the P2 position.  Hopefully that is clear!   

[GreatStrike]

@KMeloney & @Carlito - You'll also find that when incorporating the 'twist loading' procedure or technique in your golf swing your lower lead forearm/wrist/hand will tend to naturally rollover (i.e. baton twirl) during the release phase and post-impact action, which is what golfers often see and admire happening in the golf swings of the tour pros...and is such a highly sought-after element of a sound golf swing that golfers have always tried their best to duplicate the rollover action by using force to 'make' it happen, using muscular manipulation which only leads to poor swing results. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar