Do you throw or twist?

[moehogan]

24 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@moehogan - Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I knew that you made no reference to PA#3 and were referring only to PP#3 being an effect or result of properly maintaining PP#1. 

 

I was just sharing my opinion that trying to feel and use PP#3 was oftentimes not a worthwhile endeavor - and while on the subject of TGM stuff I thought it suitable to reveal that I felt the same way about TGM's PA#3.

 

Back to PP#3 - it became apparent pretty quickly when the Pure Ball Striker (PBS) started being used and talked about, how many decent players could not feel what the PBS was meant to provide golfers in terms of feeling the shaft loading and lagging against the first joint of the trail index finger - and how the PBS was supposed to help sustain that stressed/loaded shaft lag. 

 

  

I bought one of those when they first came out years ago and tried it for a little while. Didn’t like it.

[GreatStrike]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:56 PM, virtuoso said:

could you post a video demonstrating the technique so we can get a taste of what it looks like?

 

@virtuoso - This video of a left arm only golfer appears to use a similar backswing takeaway technique of twist-loading the left wrist/lower forearm.

 

   

[GreatStrike]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:37 PM, moehogan said:

I bought one of those when they first came out years ago and tried it for a little while. Didn’t like it.

 

@moehogan -  This rather old Lynn Blake video about PP#3 (Pressure Point #3, Where are You?) is quite interesting I think. I recall having seen this video before but I apparently overlooked specifically what Lynn Blake was explaining. I must admit, watching it again now, it has definitely piqued my interest!

 

He says PP#3 moves to the top of the shaft (grip) at the top of the backswing - and that is why many people can't feel it...because they think PP#3 is always behind the shaft (grip). I think I thought that also! Please tell me what you think.

 

   

[TexasTurf]

1 hour ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@moehogan -  This rather old Lynn Blake video about PP#3 (Pressure Point #3, Where are You?) is quite interesting I think. I recall having seen this video before but I apparently overlooked specifically what Lynn Blake was explaining. I must admit, watching it again now, it has definitely piqued my interest!

 

He says PP#3 moves to the top of the shaft (grip) at the top of the backswing - and that is why many people can't feel it...because they think PP#3 is always behind the shaft (grip). I think I thought that also! Please tell me what you think.

 

   

 

I trolled your thread earlier for selfish / entertainment reasons, but I really like this. Respect.

[Chunkitgood]

I also find myself strangely agreeing with Greatstrike, part. when he says stuff like:

 

Chances are good that for some reason you might not be moving your body in the backswing and/or downswing effectively to produce a sound golf swing, which includes how your arms/wrists/hands and the golf club reacts to the body's downswing sequence action.  Just learning how to turn your back to generally face the target in the backswing and leaving it turned in the early stage of the downswing will pay big dividends (The video below addresses this). Sometimes doing this is all it takes for a golfer to start naturally making a correct kinematic sequence instead of making a muscular driven arm swing that lacks zip. 

 

On the other hand saying things like where you have the COG is what the swing is all about is a bit like saying the power steering is what a car is all about.  Too much discussion about golf simply ignores that you have to have a proper body sequence to get anywhere, and the degree to which having a proper sequence will tend to get the club head where it needs to be.  The difference between a pro and a 12 capper  (and even lower) is not in where the COG lies, it’s that the 12 capper is likelier than not making that arm driven swing.

 

I believe that if the effort put into describing arm positions and PA’s and PP’s were put into teaching people how to perform the fairly straightforward (after all, children learn it implicitly, that is, unconsciously) body sequence…well, it just ain’t gonna happen.

[moehogan]

12 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@moehogan -  This rather old Lynn Blake video about PP#3 (Pressure Point #3, Where are You?) is quite interesting I think. I recall having seen this video before but I apparently overlooked specifically what Lynn Blake was explaining. I must admit, watching it again now, it has definitely piqued my interest!

 

He says PP#3 moves to the top of the shaft (grip) at the top of the backswing - and that is why many people can't feel it...because they think PP#3 is always behind the shaft (grip). I think I thought that also! Please tell me what you think.

 

   

Everyone’s feels and grips are different. I agree that PP#3 is felt more in the base knuckle of the trail hand forefinger as the shaft reaches parallel to the ground at P4. This probably happens because the grip needs to support the weight of the club resulting in the handle falling deeper into the trail hand.

As the PP#1 load increases in transition and the trail wrist extension increases, the PP#3 load is felt more against the 1st phalanx of the forefinger. Again, IMO, PP#3 is a vapor trail, not an applied force.

[GreatStrike]

11 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

 

....I really like this. Respect.

 

@TexasTurf - Maybe we can start anew. 

 

If you care to share, I'd like to know your thoughts on PP#3 regarding Lynn Blake's video synopsis about it.   

 

OT - I think you frequent some North Texas/Dallas area golf courses. I don't know if you care or are even interested - Lakewood CC is planning a complete golf course redesign and renovation. Andrew H Green - The next 'Open Doctor' - will be the design architect in charge of the extensive project. His proposal options will take at least a year and then membership has to vote, but the project will definitely happen with a predetermined result - that the resulting membership assessment for the extremely expensive project is expected to cause a number of the older members to drop their membership; especially since the renovation will take a few years to complete. This is a welcomed result in that the club will be able to replace some of the older members with younger members which the club desires. Membership of the club is by invitation only and full golf membership initiation fee is expected to increase from the current $95k to $125k-150k.

 

   
  

Edited October 11, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, moehogan said:

Everyone’s feels and grips are different. I agree that PP#3 is felt more in the base knuckle of the trail hand forefinger as the shaft reaches parallel to the ground at P4. This probably happens because the grip needs to support the weight of the club resulting in the handle falling deeper into the trail hand.

As the PP#1 load increases in transition and the trail wrist extension increases, the PP#3 load is felt more against the 1st phalanx of the forefinger. Again, IMO, PP#3 is a vapor trail, not an applied force.

 

@moehogan - I was thinking more about PP#3 in regard to its use with a 'hitting' protocol.

 

With a 'hitting' swing technique there is definitely an intentionally applied strong, continual radial force thrust onto the club's handle via PP#3 at the back side of the grip through impact. Contrarily, with a 'swinging' swing technique PP#3 is definitely more for monitoring sensory feedback in that when swinging a longitudinal pulling force is applied to the clubshaft, which is 90° divergent to the force applied onto the clubshaft when hitting.       

 

I don't think it would be appropriate or practical for the club's handle to move (falling deeper) into the trail hand with either a 'swinging' technique or a 'hitting technique. 

 

What I was specifically referring to and what I find particularly interesting in the Lynn Blake video is what he says about 'where' PP#3 loading is actually felt - that PP#3 loading as a matter of fact moves to what he calls 'the top side', and he also refers to it being 'in the front' of the shaft/handle/grip. So, the trouble I'm having in understanding Lynn Blake's message is trying to digest what the golfer is supposed to do with this awareness. But, I'm not so sure he's right...or maybe it's me that is not comprehending his message.  Maybe I need some help to digest what he is saying so I can better understand it...

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

Lynn Blake says (alludes) that people think PP#3 is always located at the back side of the shaft/handle/grip, but he says PP#3 moves to the top or front as your lead arm and club rotates. I think it only rotates 90°, not 180° which I go into and make clearer below.  

 

The way I comprehend what Lynn Blake is describing - is that when the left arm is rotated clockwise in the backswing/takeaway and the shaft/handle/grip is taken to the top of the swing, PP#3 loading is then re-oriented or moved from a point behind the shaft to a point where it is on top of (or in front of) the shaft, opposite the back side. I can't fathom this! This envisaging or conception he states is something that I just can't wrap my  head around,. No doubt Lynn Blake thought this concept was important to convey to his audience and he was pleased with the message in the video. However, the realization of PP#3 loading actually moving 180° from the back side of the grip to a point on top of, or in front of, the grip (opposite the back side), based on where the club's shaft/handle/grip is oriented in the swing doesn't compute with me. 

 

From the backside of the grip to the opposite side of the grip - or as Lynn say; 'the top of the grip' or 'the front side of the grip') - the two points are 180° from one another. But during the backswing the lead arm and the club only rotates about 90°, so the back of the grip rotates to the side of the grip, not to the top or to the front of the grip as Lynn Blake says.     

 

Typically to reorient PP#3 back behind the grip again for impact the clubshaft handle/grip must be rotated 90° during the downstroke, which sounds like the job of PA#3. As PA#1 straightens the right arm in a straight line thrust action it drives PP#1 and PP#3 towards the ball or a desired aiming point, then PA#2 wrist c0ck releases and PA#3 rotates the entire left arm (supination) and clubshaft/handle/grip 90° that is needed to square the clubface.

 

What am I missing? Why did Lynn Blake even feel it important or necessary to make us aware that PP#3 moves during the swing as the club rotates up to the top of the backswing? And, why did Lynn Blake distinctly assert that PP#3 moves 180° to a point opposite of the back side of the grip when (at least the way I see it) PP#3 only moves or rotates about 90°? 

 

Interesting video, but I'm flustered by the message. Any help in understanding it will be appreciated.     

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[moehogan]

22 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@moehogan - I was thinking more about PP#3 in regard to its use with a 'hitting' protocol.

 

With a 'hitting' swing technique there is definitely an intentionally applied strong, continual radial force thrust onto the club's handle via PP#3 at the back side of the grip through impact. Contrarily, with a 'swinging' swing technique PP#3 is definitely more for monitoring sensory feedback in that when swinging a longitudinal pulling force is applied to the clubshaft, which is 90° divergent to the force applied onto the clubshaft when hitting.       

 

I don't think it would be appropriate or practical for the club's handle to move (falling deeper) into the trail hand with either a 'swinging' technique or a 'hitting technique. 

 

What I was specifically referring to and what I find particularly interesting in the Lynn Blake video is what he says about 'where' PP#3 loading is actually felt - that PP#3 loading as a matter of fact moves to what he calls 'the top side', and he also refers to it being 'in the front' of the shaft/handle/grip. So, the trouble I'm having in understanding Lynn Blake's message is trying to digest what the golfer is supposed to do with this awareness. But, I'm not so sure he's right...or maybe it's me that is not comprehending his message.  Maybe I need some help to digest what he is saying so I can better understand it...

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

Lynn Blake says (alludes) that people think PP#3 is always located at the back side of the shaft/handle/grip, but he says PP#3 moves to the top or front as your lead arm and club rotates. I think it only rotates 90°, not 180° which I go into and make clearer below.  

 

The way I comprehend what Lynn Blake is describing - is that when the left arm is rotated clockwise in the backswing/takeaway and the shaft/handle/grip is taken to the top of the swing, PP#3 loading is then re-oriented or moved from a point behind the shaft to a point where it is on top of (or in front of) the shaft, opposite the back side. I can't fathom this! This envisaging or conception he states is something that I just can't wrap my  head around,. No doubt Lynn Blake thought this concept was important to convey to his audience and he was pleased with the message in the video. However, the realization of PP#3 loading actually moving 180° from the back side of the grip to a point on top of, or in front of, the grip (opposite the back side), based on where the club's shaft/handle/grip is oriented in the swing doesn't compute with me. 

 

From the backside of the grip to the opposite side of the grip - or as Lynn say; 'the top of the grip' or 'the front side of the grip') - the two points are 180° from one another. But during the backswing the lead arm and the club only rotates about 90°, so the back of the grip rotates to the side of the grip, not to the top or to the front of the grip as Lynn Blake says.     

 

Typically to reorient PP#3 back behind the grip again for impact the clubshaft handle/grip must be rotated 90° during the downstroke, which sounds like the job of PA#3. As PA#1 straightens the right arm in a straight line thrust action it drives PP#1 and PP#3 towards the ball or a desired aiming point, then PA#2 wrist c0ck releases and PA#3 rotates the entire left arm (supination) and clubshaft/handle/grip 90° that is needed to square the clubface.

 

What am I missing? Why did Lynn Blake even feel it important or necessary to make us aware that PP#3 moves during the swing as the club rotates up to the top of the backswing? And, why did Lynn Blake distinctly assert that PP#3 moves 180° to a point opposite of the back side of the grip when (at least the way I see it) PP#3 only moves or rotates about 90°? 

 

Interesting video, but I'm flustered by the message. Any help in understanding it will be appreciated.     

 

 

 

 

As the club moves in space and needs to be balanced by the grip, pressure feels will change. Club position vs the effects of momentum and gravity.

Edited October 12, 2022 by moehogan

[GreatStrike]

On 9/28/2022 at 10:19 AM, virtuoso said:

Yeah, that sounds good, like a pushing action. I should push it down the line. That seems more simple than what G-Strike is saying. G-Strike is is like super technical and advanced, maybe too advanced for me.

 

 

@virtuoso - If you like a pushing action, especially if you are right side dominant, then you should definitely use a 'hitting' technique instead of a swinging' technique. 'Hitting' is a pushing action whereas 'swinging' is the manipulation of centrifugal force, which is not something that is easily learned or done by most people. 

 

Hitting is much easier to learn because it has basically just one primary body movement conveniently driving the lead arm plus the club as a whole unit very effectively by way of straightening the right arm. Simply put, the main action involved is a muscular thrust of the right arm against the lever assembly consisting of the left arm plus the golf club - this muscular push thrust is against the base of your left thumb. It's really just that simple!

 

What's nice about the hitting' technique is - it automatically and quite easily eliminates the most troubling and frustrating problems that a 'swinging' swing usually entails - such as golfers usually have to overcome a tendency to cast, early release, flipping, over-the-top downswing, fat shots, difficulty squaring the clubface, slicing, etc. Most hitters don't even have to think about or deal with a backstroke pivot or downstroke pivot because the right arm is their body pivot! So, with the lead arm plus the club resisting the force of the right arm straightening the golfer makes a perfect backstroke with a straight (extended) left arm. And, the downstroke is equally effective.

 

Another huge benefit of a 'hitting' technique is the easy ability to create lag, and to feel that lag (the sensation of a loaded/stressed clubshaft). That is a very rare occurrence with a 'swinging' swing in my opinion. Lag is needed to really compress the golf ball and make it explode off the clubface. With a 'hitting' swing, creating and sustaining that lag is quite easily acquired. A golfer that doesn't have the ability to create and use lag in his swing can't expect much good from his golf swing. 

 

What's  nice about a 'hitting' swing is that it is easily taught and is almost always quickly learned by most everyone regardless of age or strength. Just average coordination is all that is really necessary.  And, it's definitely far less frustrating for the student compared to 'swinging' and more overall rewarding.   

 

A 'swinging' swing can be very troubling at times even for high-level golfers that have been using the method for a long time. There are many body movements that must take place in sequence in a perfectly timed order. When you're dealing with something as fragile as a double pendulum working within the  scope of centrifugal force, it's not a cakewalk. Most people have a difficult time with the effort to pull their left arm and club into a straight line using (i.e. manipulating) centrifugal force. It usually results in an ill-timed glancing blow, slap or swipe with the lead wrist breaking down and the right hand trying to take over. 

 

While I personally don't think there's any real difference in what the two different swing techniques can offer in terms of end results for experienced users, I feel there is somewhat a feeling of rare accomplishment to use a 'swinging' golf swing. A solid, flushed shot feels remarkably good with fantastic results when 'hitting', but there's something unique about doing it when 'swinging' that gives your body an even bigger adrenaline rush. I think that good feeling comes about from how a 'swinging' swing materializes or originates from inside body or the body-center whereas a 'hitting' swing definitely feels like the power source is external, which it is - at least to the extent the right arm, hand and right shoulder is not rotating or reacting to centrifugal-centripetal force.    

  

I'll mishit far more shots when swinging than I will when hitting simply because I think swinging is more difficult for anyone - especially for right side dominant golfers. Hitting is more machine-like - especially for right side dominant golfers - because it has fewer moving parts. You aren't dealing with a left hand and arm pulling motion that has a weak left wrist joint midway in-line in between the pulling force at the grip and the clubhead weight at the far end of the shaft that you are trying to form a straight line with at impact by using centrifugal force. Quite a mission! For most, a mission impossible!

 

I can hit 40 or 50 balls back-to-back pretty much like a machine by using the hitting technique, but when using the swinging technique at least two out of 30 swings will be some form of a mishit, and some can be quite terrible. Distance-wise I believe the two swing techniques are about the same. I do however like the feel I get and the amazing sound of compressing the ball by making solid contact with what (in my mind) is a loaded/stressed clubshaft driven by my stronger and more able right side (arm/ hand and shoulder that has greater dexterity. I also like the feel of using my right shoulder moving down-plane as a launching pad to straighten (thrust/push hard) my right arm straight out from the shoulder like a powerful piston. 

 

Virtuoso - Give 'hitting' a try since you like the the idea of pushing better than pulling, as 'swinging' is not for everyone!              

 

 

       

Edited October 13, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[virtuoso]

19 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

@virtuoso -

 

I'll mishit far more shots when swinging than I will when hitting simply because I think swinging is more difficult for anyone - especially for right side dominant golfers.

           

 

 

     

Woah G-Strike, are you saying that you can switch back and forth between hitting and swinging?

[GreatStrike]

3 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Woah G-Strike, are you saying that you can switch back and forth between hitting and swinging?

 

Yes, I do switch back and forth fairly often, primarily just to see how adept at both swing techniques I am. But if I don't stay fresh and having practiced swinging recently 'swinging' definitely takes some practice time to get somewhat comfortable and confident with it again. If I had to play with all the marbles in peril I'd definitely choose to use the 'hitting' technique.         

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Yes, I do switch back and forth fairly often, primarily just to see how adept at both swing techniques I am. But if I don't stay fresh and having practiced swinging recently 'swinging' definitely takes some practice time to get somewhat comfortable and confident with it again. If I had to play with all the marbles in peril I'd definitely choose to use the 'hitting' technique.         

 

 

 

Nice, would you mind doing a quick video where you hit a ball using the hitting method and then hit one using the swinging method so I can see the difference? I’m more of a visual learner.

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Nice, would you mind doing a quick video where you hit a ball using the hitting method and then hit one using the swinging method so I can see the difference? I’m more of a visual learner.

 

There's plenty of example videos around. I think I may have posted one in this thread. I'll try to find it and maybe some others.

 

   

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - I think you will find the following interesting. 

 

The following are comments from John Erickson (a.k.a. 'Lag Pressure'), a retired former tour player that competed using a 'swinging' golf swing and changed to a 'hitting' golf swing. You (and others) hopefully will find his perspective about the topic of 'hitting' and 'swinging' interesting.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

We’ll, I must say that swinging and the use of longitudinal acceleration I believe to be the superior method of all things feel. Dumping the power package on the ball with soft hands is just a beautiful thing around the greens for all the chips, flops and around the green wedges.

I would argue that swinging makes a huge assumption that our hinges are always well oiled, free and flexible. The steady even acceleration to the moment of truth depends on exactly these things… steady, even, and well oiled firm, but flexible hinges.

We of course can debate the pressure gauge software inside the computer. Everyone seems to have a different setting. I am not likely to go into the red on a weekend game with guys at the club, but coming down the final three holes to win the South Australian Open might put me well into the red! lol

It’s natural when we feel pressure to tighten up, and these states of muscle constraint do not do well for the free flexible hinges.

Now if you have the mind of a Nicklaus, and pressure does not bother you, then your computer will keep pumping oil to those hinges right to the award platform on the 72nd green. For me that was not usually the case!

Once I learned how to hit, with a tight grip pressure, and radial acceleration with an angled hinge, I found that to be much better under the gun, and as my computer would cut off the oil and my muscles would tighten, I would typically just rotate a bit faster and I would just have to remember to pull one LESS club down the stretch and since I would practice with a very tight cohesive body tension, those moments would really just seem all too familiar…. I found I was able to perform much better under pressure with pure hitting techniques.

Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club out of orbit with the angled hinge, and the answer was really quite simple. So I could hit it straight consistently!  

 

................................

 

In simple terms..
Swingers typically but not necessarily always are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and effortless looking (don’t be fooled though).
Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing.

The heart of what I was saying is that I think pure swingers have a harder time under pressure, and in my years on the tour, I saw the games best using hitting methods. Clampett and I had a long talk about it one year at Q school. He agreed.

The best hitting striker I ever saw was Peter Senior from Australia. I was there when he we waxing everyone from Norman in his prime, Faldo, no one could touch him. No swinging going on with that fine move.

For pure CF swingers.. Moe Norman who I spent a lot of time with picking his brain while I was on the Canadian Tour in the late 80's early 90's.
With hitting, I didn't have to practice at all to keep the ball on the course, and there have been times since my retirement where I went over a year without touching a club. One year I went out with my father, having not played in over a year, and I shot 68 at Oak Creek CC in Sedona which is a decent test RT Jones track. Now I am not saying this to toot my horn here, but to make a point… there is absolutely no way I could have done that swinging with rusty hinges!

Since coming back to golf last year, I still don't practice, only play.. and hitting makes it possible to not have to grind thousands of golf balls to strike the golf ball properly.

Swingers pull, hitters push. I believe there are purists on each end of the spectrum, most players do some of both, often not all that effectively.

From a purely ideological standpoint swinging is superior I believe.
But for me hitting proved the better method to win money and tournaments on the world stage.

 

...............................

 

Swinging might feel like this:
If you were to let go of the club at impact the club would of course bounce off the ground move away from you.. say towards 10 or 11 o clock. using the ball as a reference to a clock... Aiming the hands at the inside quadrant of the ball.

Now if you go with that momentum you can use a full roll of the wrists and let the arms move away from the body after dumping all the force on the ball and then into the ground. This is the Doyle, McHatton approach I was taught early on, and it works well. I know. I can swing that way and have won tournaments with that kind of swing.

Hitting:
Now if you fight that expanding circle action, you have to use an angle hinge, no wrist roll and the club is released by the rotation of the body. If you stand behind a golfer with this motion, the hands will quickly disappear around the body after impact… kind of like cutting it left..... by pulling the club out of it’s natural longitudinal orbit, you create a massive amount of pressure in your hands, on all three pressure points. This pressure in your hands is FEEL! and this is the feel that you can learn to utilize to control the ball exactly how you want to…. a three yard draw, a five yard fade, low, high, it’s all yours if you can learn to do it. Warning! You have to have strong arms and hands if you are planning on rotating fast and hitting it far!

On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis. It’s a great move to master though, because if you can do it, you can’t ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
 

For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your shoulders are turning as flat as a 15th century Spanish globe.

I have seen that move win a lot of money and tournaments.

Swinging for me took a lot of practice, stretching, and all in all my body just had to feel really loose free and oily.. I couldn’t just step off the plane after a long flight, bad food, and go to the course and start flushing shots right away. Each week was like having to re lube the machine and get it all oiled up for Thursday. It really wore me out over time.. the road is a whole other thing. I saw a lot of compact short swing hitters just step off the plane at shoot 65 in a Tuesday round.. I was always quite envious of that until I learned how to do it myself.

I would strive for maximum swing radius so I would float load or drag load the club back to the top, so that my wrist would not c0ck until the very end of my backswing, then I would flex my knees into a big “sit down” bowlegged thing, this would start the change in direction, and I would hold 90 degree club shaft angle to the third parallel with a big gutty upper body rotation into this sit down leg squat.
 

Once there the left leg would straighten violently and the hips would clear fast and you just dump all that inertia onto the ball and into the ground with loosey goosey free flexible wrist and arms. The thing that was amazing about this, and so different is that after impact the upper arms would NOT stay packed and in tight to the body but would just move out away from the body with a full roll of the wrists, so free and spent feeling. You just have to trust that the forces that be will release the club into perfect alignment, and amazingly they do! ... but with this one disclosure … FREE FLEXIBLE HINGES WITH A STEADY AND EVEN ACCELERATION on the way down.

So my argument as a practical player and tester of this is that yes it does work, as long as the brain sends oil to the joints! .. meaning you don’t tighten up, get nervous or feel any pressure out on the course.

Swinging in general makes several big assumptions…
1. That the human body will create a steady even acceleration for all the laws of physics and geometry to do what they need to do..

2. That the hinges are properly lubed at all times when playing golf shots.. meaning free flexible wrists, heavy noodle like arms, and the “gutty” inner motion of the body is really driving the swing..(loading and delivering the power package)

I will say that the hitter must also feel that “gutty” body rotation (for fuller shots).. but accepting that we all have “off days” I like being off as a hitter much more than being “off” as a swinger.

I played today, and really felt “off’, but still managed 7 birdie putts inside 20 feet. I only hit one shot that I would say was “really” bad.. That would not have been the case back when I was for the most part a swinger..

 

...............................

 

The right arm and elbow have different roles for swingers and hitters..

Remember, Mac O’Grady is a hitter all the way, so his right arm straightens quickly on the downswing to the 3rd parallel. He rotates his shoulders very flat, and our swings (Mac and mine) would have a lot more similarities than differences. I say this because I really believe that I know what Mac is feeling in the swing. I don’t position my hands as low as Mac does at address… but I know why he does that..

Now with swinging, the right arm is passive all the way down, and the feeling of the right hand moving out to the right forever, seems appropriate in it’s description.

Swinging, you are feeling that you are throwing the club into the ground in an on plane way..everything is dumping into the ball. When the clubhead hits the ground it kinda bounces off the ground, and the arms make no attempt to stop this action, therefore the free flexible way is to have the upper arms detach from the body and the wrists make a full roll after impact… this is all a result of the club bouncing off the ground. If there was no ground you would likely feel that your arms were being pulled from their sockets!

Now in Mac’s style of hitting, and myself as well, we do everything we can to stop the club from doing everything I described above!

By pulling the clubhead out of it’s natural straight line descent into the earth, we muscle it around our body in a tight way, keeping the upper arms glued to the body, and rotating flat. But the key to this working is what the right arm does on the downswing. If you were to keep the right arm bent with this kind of motion, you would come OTT and pull every shot dead left. You HAVE to straighten the right arm on the way down or it’s OB left..

The plane is the same but it feels totally different because you can’t do both!

Now swinging does work, and it is of golf’s highest ideals...but from my experience of doing both fairly well in my career, I would say that swinging I might hit it like a (10) somedays, and like a (3) others.. but as a hitter I am like a (6) to an (8) all the time. I never hit the ball bad… and I say that in comparison to when I hit the ball bad as a swinger.. I could really spray it on an off day, but I never spray it now… never.

As far as the body, as a swinger I would like my body to feel like a yoga instructor, where as a hitter, I really need to feel like an athlete..

 

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On tour..I would keep my swinging activities to around the greens.. I believe the softness, sensitivity of the hands gives the great touch around the greens, and putting too.. so I might say I swing inside 30 yards… hit everything outside that..

Now that being said, I would say that with swinging… I like the hands and arms to feel heavy and deliberate. With hitting, I like the arms and hands to feel light and tight… so I would say at a high level of the game, this might explain why a lot of great short game players hit the ball poorly in comparison, and a lot of great ball strikers have trouble with touch around the greens.. I think this is a real reality for a lot of players, and this might give a very real insight into why this happens.

The players that figure out how to move from one feel to the other are the ones that really set themselves apart from the others..

Nowadays, since I don't play serious competitive golf, I'm hitting everything, even chips and pitches..
This way I can keep a decent short game with zero practice.. and that is what I am after now...
I'm even hitting putts now.. zero practice.. very simple action. 

 

................................

 

At transition, it's not a bad idea to have the arms feeling ahead at first, then as the torso starts turning it would feel behind, because of the lagging effect, or should I say, as the body rotates, the arms would feel that they lag behind.. as they compress into the body while the torso is rotating...

The hands need to be in the same relative position “on plane” from the third to fourth parallel, so if your hands are down low, right hip pocket on the downswing, make sure that when the hips have fully cleared, that the hands are now 4 or 5 inches from your belt buckle at the fourth parallel, on the same relative plane as they were on the downswing.
This again is angle hinge stuff, that of hitters..

Now with swingers, you would NOT want to do this, because when the club hits the ground as a swinger, it essentially “bounces” of the ground away from the body , and would appear to be off plane, but the intent is for the club to go down into the earth and stay on plane… (radial vs longitudinal acceleration)

If anyone doesn’t understand the difference here please let me know and don’t be afraid to ask questions, maybe I can learn a better way to explain all this without having to show someone in person.. which I am quite sure I could communicate these concepts much more easily.. 

 

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Rhythm is equally important in both hitting and swinging. The key is to have it…. and to really understand the difference between radial (hitting) and longitudinal acceleration. The intent is totally different, yet they both need an application of rhythm.

In a sense the third and fourth parallel should be mirror images, particularly if you are hitting, you could think of teeth on a saw blade. But the feel is a bit different in hitting because as a hitter… you are in a way, pulling the club out of orbit… in other words, if you were to let go of the club at impact it would hit the ground and bounce off to the right, into right field.. so the hitter does everything he or she can to resist this throw out action. The swinger would argue the opposite, allow as little interference as possible, loose free arms, wrists, let the clubhead roll over and so forth. The shaft of the swinger would appear to be OFF plane to the hitter, moving out and away from the body after impact. All this stems from the difference of intent from Longitudinal or radial acceleration… two very different objectives.

“The hitter attempts to bring a pre-stressed shaft into impact through radial acceleration. The swinger sees this as futile, and not realistic choosing to dump the force, lengthwise down the shaft telescopically…. and uses the virtue of a rhythmic, steady even acceleration to take full advantages of the physics of centrifugal force to activate the release motion of the club automatically through a straightening and inline throw that is guided by smooth, steady, even power supply.

I knew the difference here intellectually as a young TGM student, but it really didn’t crystalize for me until years later until I could really feel the difference. I spent half my career as a swinger, the other half as a hitter. I really know what these styles feel like in the body, and since golf is a game of feel, I became aware of the pros and cons as a real life test subject.

As a hitter, the mirror image “look” is interesting, because at parallel 3 the hitter would feel non manipulated, but to get the same look over at parallel 4, you would be under a sensation of heavy manipulation…. both with the plane of the shaft and with the attempt to hold off the closing of the clubface. The “word” manipulation sounds “bad” to most, but that “pulling it out of orbit”, and resisting the closing of the clubface, actually puts feel in your hands, and gives you an awareness of the clubhead, shaft and clubface a swinger could only dream about.

Distance from the ball is a great topic, it could start a new thread of it’s own.

Again you might have two different protocols here between hitters and swingers. The swinger might have greater success with the ball being farther away at address to take advantage of the maximum swing radius principle. The bigger the arc the faster the clubhead will travel given the same pivot speed… but of course longer means heavier too.. but now with the modern gear, you can have longer and lighter, so that is the main reason the ball is going farther.

The hitter would be more along the lines of a figure skater pulling everything inward to speed up the rotation when they go into one of those routine closing spins. The closer the hands are to the body the faster the hitter can rotate, which is the core of the hitters quest for developing radial speed… The hitter would argue that the swinger has little chance of repeating their swing on a day in day out basis due to the nature of the human body NOT being able to always accelerate steady and even, and that the wrist and arms could feel tight from time to time, and interfere with the freeness of the hinges that are so paramount to the swingers success..

So, back to the question.. how far to stand? Well first, are you hitting or swinging? This of course leads right into how to set up your irons flat or upright?

Personally I like flat irons for hitters, more upright for swingers.
Either way, you must set your irons to proper impact alignments, not “address” alignment… and not the markings on your club swinging the way you do on a black rubber mat. Fitting your clubs to your swing in the NOW state, with guarantee you stay with what you have good or bad.. nothing will foster poor impact alignments faster than poor club fitting.. It happens ALL THE TIME!  

 

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► Reference

 

About as polar opposite as two players could be releasing the club.
Ben Hogan the classic hitter and Rickie Fowler a swinger with pivot stall.

 

 

 

Here is the Golf Illustrated - October 2010 article:

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - Here are some notes applicable to 'Hitting" you will likely find very helpful. I have used bold red to identify certain parts of the notes to help them stand out because I believe they are most important to digest and refer back to if needed.

 

Hitting

 

Muscular Thrust:
Unlike the Swinger who manipulates centrifugal force, the pure Hitter ONLY uses his right arm to activate the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole). Swinging is about dragging (pulling) the club whereas Hitting is about driving (pushing) the club. 

 

The muscle involved here is the right triceps as it is responsible for straightening the right arm. The main action involved here is a muscular thrust of the right arm to the base of the left thumb (PP#1) which drives against the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole).

 

The clubhead is not thrown into orbit by the pivot like with a Swinger, instead the Hitter pushes radially against the radius - against the shaft with his right arm only onto the base of his left thumb (PP#1). Think of it like pushing against one spoke of a bicycle wheel to put the wheel into motion – Swinging would make you drag the rim of the wheel.

 

The proper action is to straighten the right arm without flattening the bent right wrist in a piston like action. The right wrist bend is maintained from address ‘impact fix’ to where both arms are straight. The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands from his right-to-left in front of his body and toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).  

Address: Impact Fix:
It all starts at address – the Hitter usually sets up with his hands in a position that is called ‘Impact Fix’. This position, while not mandatory, allows for an easier pickup of the Primary Lever Assembly as a whole by the right arm (the right forearm takeaway). Also it establishes the proper impact alignments right away which includes a bent back right wrist that must be maintained through impact. From this position all you have to do is to freeze your wrists into their position and move the whole thing back and forth with your right arm pretty much in a piston like motion. A good way to feel this motion is, without a club, to hold your left wrist with your right hand and move your left arm back and forth. This is the principle of the Hitting motion.

 

Half Roll of the clubface:
Due to the way the club is moved, the clubface doesn’t open as much as the Swinging motion during the backswing and doesn’t close as much in the downstroke. Consequently, Hitting naturally produces what is called a ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface: When you look at the clubface at both arms straight, you should see the clubface looking 45 degrees left (for righties) instead of 90 degrees left in the Swinging motion (full roll, clubface closed). This ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface produces a no-roll feel which is very important to note as you might intuitively search to feel a roll. This Half Roll also has a natural fade tendency. As a consequence, the Hitter tends to adopt a stronger grip position to counterbalance that effect and produce straight shots. You should also take into account that the more forward the ball in your stance (Driver for example), the more the need for a slightly closed face and/or a stronger grip because of the more layback of the clubface is at this point. Experiment with your grip to find the correct amount of shut face to induce.

 

Face constantly looking at the ball:
Another interesting fact is the way the clubface swivels during the swing. Unlike the Swinger whose clubface almost immediately swivels against the plane of the swing, the Hitter doesn’t rotate the clubface but rather keeps it ‘looking at the ball’ during the backswing. The clubface stays at right angles against the face of the plane. This is the natural byproduct of the angled hinge and you must not intend to rotate it clockwise/open on the backswing or you will have to consciously rotate it back counterclockwise on the downswing for proper contact.
 

Backstroke (DEVELOP THRUST):
The backstroke of a  Hitter begins from 'impact fix' with the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to apply a push force which extends (straightens) the left arm and moves the arm/club structure to the top of the backstroke. It is imperative to have the right wrist in a bent-back condition to carry it in that same bent-back position throughout the backstroke and downstroke. The left arm resists the right arm’s push motion against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to form a solid structure of the arm/club unit as it moves into the backstroke. This is the loading process that develops THRUST! The left arm resisting the right arm's push motion provides an extended (straight) left arm that will naturally be driven downward in the downstroke by the right arm thrusting straight outward from the launching pad that is the right shoulder. The straight left arm, although inert, is very important to the right arm as it acts as a checkrein, preventing the right arm from bending too much when accumulating its thrust power when folding at the elbow. The straight left arm also helps to guide the hands into impact when releasing the right arm's stored thrust power. The golfer moves his right shoulder (which is a launching pad for the thrusting right arm) down plane at start down to get it closer to the ball so he does not run out of right arm before impact.  

 

Establishing the Lag: Drive Loading:
You will discover that the piston like action of the right arm produces a shorter backswing than the Swinger due to the position of the right elbow set to push against the shaft instead of pulling. From there, usually the hands cannot go higher than shoulder high – which is called the Top. But, from such a shorter backstroke, the tendency is to rush on the downstroke. Make sure you give yourself enough time to transition from Top to Start Down and accomplish the necessary Drive Loading.

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

Power Accumulators for Hitting:

You’ll use 3 power accumulators but will only have to think of using just one

The key power accumulator is PA#1):

► Power Accumulator #1: Straighten out (straight out) thrust of the right arm 
Power Accumulator #2: The uncocking of the left wrist
Power Accumulator #3: The rotation of the entire left  
► PA#2 & PA#3 happens automatically with the action and motion of PA#1

 

Pressure Points for Hitting:
You’ll use 3 pressure points:

The key pressure point is PP#1
► Pressure Point #1: The palm of your right hand against the aft section of the grip and the base of your left thumb.
Pressure Point #2: The last 3 fingers of your left hand.
Pressure Point #3: The index/trigger finger of the right hand resisting against the club wanting to stay behind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - The first video is a 'Swinging' and the second video is a 'Hitting'

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by GreatStrike
added video

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - Here are some videos displaying and discussing 'swinging' versus 'hitting'. I grant you that it's often difficult to determine the difference by just watching a 'swinging' golf swing compared to a 'hitting' golf swing, but most golfers with sound golf swings know how they apply the power and what the difference is.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by GreatStrike
Added videos

[GreatStrike]

 

[GreatStrike]

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by GreatStrike
video

[GreatStrike]

@virtuoso - I hope the above information and videos help to explain the 'hitting' technique.

 

Whether you decide on a 'swinging' golf swing or a 'hitting' golf swing basically comes down to what you generally prefer to do with your hands and what you are best capable of doing with your hands based on the premise that 'Hitters' actively hit with the hands through impact, while 'Swingers' use the hands as passive hinges, letting centrifugal-centripetal force do the work for them. For most people, the latter is the most difficult method by far to accomplish and to become skillful at.  

 

I heard a pretty good player that was really struggling with his golf swing one day describe 'Swinging' as like trying to ride a horse bareback at a full gallop, sitting backwards with no reins while twirling a lasso and aiming a six shooter at the bad guy underneath the horse while trying not to lose your cowboy hat! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[moehogan]

Bingo!
 

About as polar opposite as two players could be releasing the club.
Ben Hogan the classic hitter and Rickie Fowler a swinger with pivot stall.

 

Pressure Points for Hitting:
You’ll use 3 pressure points:

The key pressure point is PP#1
Pressure Point #1: The palm of your right hand against the aft section of the grip and the base of your left thumb.
Pressure Point #2: The last 3 fingers of your left hand.
Pressure Point #3: The index/trigger finger of the right hand resisting against the club wanting to stay behind.

 

[b_f_c_99]

Great stuff on the swinger/hitter fundamentals.  I’m definitely a hitter and I do and feel all of that stuff for the reasons Mr Erickson described.  I believe the people that really struggle are caught between the fundamentals of the swing styles setting up as a hitter, then trying to do the moves of a swinger or vice versa.  Or said a different way they don’t have parts that match up!

[GreatStrike]

18 hours ago, b_f_c_99 said:

Great stuff on the swinger/hitter fundamentals.  I’m definitely a hitter and I do and feel all of that stuff for the reasons Mr Erickson described.  I believe the people that really struggle are caught between the fundamentals of the swing styles setting up as a hitter, then trying to do the moves of a swinger or vice versa.  Or said a different way they don’t have parts that match up!

 

@b_f_c_99 - I agree - it's typical for most amateurs to attempt to use both a swinging and hitting protocol at the same time which rarely works out well for them unless you have the DNA of a Ben Hogan that was able to use the beginning of a 'swinging' downswing (PA#4) where his lead arm blasted off his chest and then appeared to use a lot of hitter's technique thereafter. I don't think they'll ever really figure out how Hogan did what he did with his golf swing, which was truly special!

 

I was a friend of a much older gentleman that was a very close personal friend of Ben Hogan by the name of Eldridge Miles (a.k.a. 'Big E'), that played more rounds of golf with Ben Hogan than anyone else in history. Big E was a regular playing partner of Ben Hogan for more than 20 years. Big E was such a close friend that Mr. Hogan's wife asked him to speak at Hogan's funeral service. Big E had a lot of very interesting things to share about Ben Hogan.  

 

I know that Ben Hogan shared a lot of golf swing knowledge as well as personal stuff with Big E over the 20+ years they were such close friends in which they played many hundreds of rounds of golf together. Big E shared a lot of those nuggets about Ben Hogan's golf swing before he passed away a few years ago. I know through Big E that Mr. Hogan was adamant (to the point of being relentless about it) that a right-hand golfer must use his right arm and hand for both power and control of the club if he expected to play at the highest level, so much so that Hogan harped about it often.

 

                         Eldridge Miles

 

 

Eldridge Miles Obituary

 

 

 

 

                   

Edited October 15, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[virtuoso]

Wow, it’s amazing that Lynn Blake can make his swinging method and his hitting method look so similar. He must be a true master.

 

Now that I’m getting more educated about this stuff, my theory is that you should thrust your right arm and use centrifugal force. Then you get an even more explosive release because you are using both power sources.

Edited October 15, 2022 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

16 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Wow, it’s amazing that Lynn Blake can make his swinging method and his hitting method look so similar. He must be a true master.

 

Now that I’m getting more educated about this stuff, my theory is that you should thrust your right arm and use centrifugal force. Then you get an even more explosive release because you are using both power sources.

 

@virtuoso - It's very difficult to see a difference in 'swinging' from 'hitting' in most swings but there is absolutely a huge difference in how the swing is powered. 

 

Two totally different methods - 'Swinging' with a longitudinal pulling force on the end of the clubshaft as if to stretch it and using centrifugal force to sling the clubhead into the ball while manipulating the clubface square - - whereas 'Hitting' is accomplished with a muscular thrust of the right arm straightening (straight outward from the launching pad of the right shoulder having moved slightly down plane toward the  ball) to apply push thrust force radially onto the side of the clubshaft handle by the palm of the right hand against the base of the left thumb. The right arm thrust should be slow and heavy (like opening or closing a door by applying push force near the hinge of the door that moves the latch side of the door a great amount). This constant push force via the right hand on the left thumb is maintained through impact to a point where both arms are straight post-impact, which carries the stressed/loaded clubshaft with lagging clubhead through impact with the golf ball. 

 

Essentially the two forces (Swinging & Hitting) are 90° opposing ← ↓ (one a pull on the shaft and the other a push against the shaft). That is why attempting to use both power sources at the same time - which 90% of amateurs try to do, always ends in disaster. It's best to pick one method and only one!  Being that you have said you prefer to push instead of pull, you should choose the  'hitting' method.

 

 

Ben Hogan hits balls into the ocean - Rt arm thrust straight-out from shoulder moves hands/club into perfect DS arc 

  

 

 

 

 

      

Edited October 16, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[berndgeurts]

@GreatStrike I've been trying the swinging method for a few months now and I am flabbergasted. Even taking the swing to the course. 

The swing is hard to learn at first, but after some time I got better at it. It's a feeling which is unbelievable. The swing feels like sitting on a playground swing. Applying force at the right time in the right direction makes you swing faster. 

I was only focusing on this swinging, not positions, backswing thoughts, early extension or clubface. 

Filming my swing showed I nailed those without focussing on them. Swinging a golf club correctly and not hitting it, forces the body in the correct positions every pro is trying to teach.

Also Dr. Kwon makes a lot more sense.

Thanks for sharing this great thread and I'll keep on going this route. Swinging instead of hitting is the answer for me.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by berndgeurts
Grammar

[GreatStrike]

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by GreatStrike

[GreatStrike]

In regard to using the stronger, usually dominant right side to power the golf swing, take a look at the following video of Rory McIlroy's exquisite golf swing - focusing on his swing in two key areas that have recently been discussed.

 

•  Using the right arm to push against the base of the left thumb (TGM Pressure Point #1) to straighten/extend the left arm in the backstroke and keep the left arm straight/extended during the downstroke of the golf swing.

•  Straightening/extending the right arm in a straight out piston-like move from the right shoulder (TGM Power Accumulator #1) against the base of the left thumb ((PP#1) to push the hands along a wide circular arc track, which in turn drives the golf club through impact. 

 

The typical golf swing model is for shoulder rotation (torque) to move the hands in a circular arc, which provides the main power for the swing. But this shoulder torque has to be transmitted to the hands from the turning shoulders. Transmitting the torque is the work of the arms which is assumed to be a single, unyielding, rigid structure. But in actuality the hands can be driven along the circular arc by either (a) a pull from the left arm or by (b) a push by the right arm, or by (c) a combination of the two.

 

Almost all golf instruction focuses on a left arm pull for an 'authentic' centrifugal-centripetal golf swing. But, it is by far the most difficult to learn - and the less prone to regain after a layoff of not playing or practicing. There is no reason why any of the three choices (above) could not be used in making a golf swing. Just like the left arm pull method, the right arm push method has a component of its force that will move the hands along the circular arc.  The right arm push method may very well be a better choice in terms of learning and acquiring the best way to swing a golf club. A right arm push golf swing will likely be the much easier method to get your body to execute, especially if you are right side dominant.     

 

 

Reference: Dave Tutelman - The Golf Swing

 

 

One can easily see (and sense) Rory McIlroy incorporating these two TGM related elements (PP#1 & PA#1) in his golf swing.   

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[GreatStrike]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:20 AM, berndgeurts said:

@GreatStrike I've been trying the swinging method for a few months now and I am flabbergasted. Even taking the swing to the course. 

The swing is hard to learn at first, but after some time I got better at it. It's a feeling which is unbelievable. Applying force at the right time in the right direction makes you swing faster. I was only focusing on this swinging, not positions, backswing thoughts, early extension or clubface. Filming my swing showed I nailed those without focusing on them. Swinging a golf club correctly and not hitting it, forces the body in the correct positions every pro is trying to teach. Swinging instead of hitting is the answer for me.

 

@berndgeurts - That is what Ian Baker-Finch thought too, until he was totally and devastatingly surprised when he completely lost his 'swinging' golf swing and was unable to regain even a semblance of the form he once had. A 'swinging' golf swing is not only difficult for most people to learn, but it is often short-lived too, oftentimes never to be recaptured even by the most experienced professional golfers amongst us; as witnessed by none other than Ian Baker-Finch and documented in the video below.

 

 

Considered one of the saddest stories in golf, Ian Baker-Finch won the British Open and then embarked upon one of the saddest slumps in golf history.

 

 

 

  

Edited October 17, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar