Do you throw or twist?

[mocokid]

On 7/9/2020 at 2:18 PM, GreatStrike said:

I agree. Most people should be using their right (dominant) forearm/wrist in a primary role to make their golf swing.

As I have said before, golfers have been told for hundreds of years to use their lead forearm/wrist in a primary role to make a golf swing, but that theory needs to change because it is not necessarily the best method for a lot of people. In fact, it's probably not the best approach for the majority. As we look at most sound golf swings it is difficult to determine which side (lead or trail) is actually initiating certain conditions or actions. Some golfers may be better at supinating their left forearm/wrist whereas other golfers may be better served to pronate their right forearm/wrist to obtain the exact same lead wrist condition at impact. Does it make any difference 'how' the lead wrist gets to that condition? The answer is no, it does not. Right side dominant golfers (which make up practically 90% of all golfers) are far more likely to advance and lower their handicap if they give their dominant right side the primary role it should have.

Some people have said that to use the right side the golf swing becomes a pushing motion instead of a pulling motion. That couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is - as long as the clubhead is behind the force it is a pulling motion. In other words, you can pull the club with the left side or pull with the right side...and since both hands are on the club's grip it's practically impossible to determine which side has the dominant or primary role of doing the pulling in one's golf swing, or if both sides are contributing equally.

The problem most amateur golfers face is: (a) trying to achieve a neutral or bowed lead wrist through the impact zone (b) that produces adequate shaft lean and © a level or slightly descending angle-of-attack that (d) does not cause early extension and (e) is able to make sweet spot contact every time (f) that does not move the clubhead at any time outside the target line and (g) delivers a square clubface. For 99% of golfers those requirements cannot be accomplished with their non-dominant lead (left) forearm/wrist providing the primary role. Is there any wonder why amateur golfers struggle so much? Most amateur golfers do not realize how much more their trail arm/elbow/forearm/wrist must do compared to the lead forearm/wrist. It should be easy to realize that the right side needs to carry so much more of the burden. Ben Hogan, Mike Austin and many others have said so...or all but said so.

Ask a golfer to hammer 20 roofing nails through shingles and into roof decking with his left hand and see what the results are. Ask someone to throw a baseball or spiral a football with their left hand and see what the results are. Most people can't even effectively brush their teeth or throw a wadded-up piece of paper into a wastepaper basket from 5 feet away with their left hand. Yet they think their left side should have the primary role in making their golf swing.

So, yes - it is easy to learn how to pronate the right, which naturally leads to the left being supinated. But, equally important is the fact that it is absolutely essential that the right wrist must be in a bent-back condition anyway, so why not put the onus on the right side to have the primary duty of making the golf swing. The right forearm/wrist technique that I have described in this thread provides what is needed to accomplish the imperative conditions 'a' thru 'g' as noted in the fourth paragraph above - something that most all amateur golfers fail at miserably.

Good study - you are on the right track...

 

I'm a right hander trying to overcome 50 years of left hand dominance, especially the tight pressure in the last 3 fingers of the left hand on the down swing.  Instead of pulling the club to the ball on the shortest path, I'm now trying to throw the club head away from the target.  This I think increases the length of the club head path to the ball allowing the club more time to square up and gain speed.  My challenge is to neutralize the left hand pulling and add more right hand dominance.  Any thoughts?  

Edited December 5, 2022 by mocokid
Update

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, mocokid said:

I'm a right hander trying to overcome 50 years of left hand dominance, especially the tight pressure in the last 3 fingers of the left hand on the down swing.  Instead of pulling the club to the ball on the shortest path, I'm now trying to throw the club head away from the target.  This I think increases the length of the club head path to the ball allowing the club more time to square up and gain speed.  My challenge is to neutralize the left hand pulling and add more right hand dominance.  Any thoughts?  

 

@mocokid - Here are some notes applicable to 'Hitting" you will likely find very helpful. I have used bold red to identify certain parts of the notes to help them stand out because I believe they are most important to digest and refer back to if needed.

 

Hitting

 

Muscular Thrust:
Unlike the Swinger who manipulates centrifugal force, the pure Hitter ONLY uses his right arm to activate the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole). Swinging is about dragging (pulling) the club whereas Hitting is about driving (pushing) the club - yet with the hitting method the clubhead lags behind the  force, so there's that to contemplate. 

 

When hitting the muscle involved here is the right triceps as it is responsible for straightening the right arm. The main action involved here is a muscular thrust of the right arm to the base of the left thumb (PP#1) which drives against the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole).

 

The clubhead is not thrown into orbit by the pivot like with a Swinger, instead the Hitter pushes radially against the radius - against the shaft with his right arm only onto the base of his left thumb (PP#1). Think of it like pushing against one spoke of a bicycle wheel to put the wheel into motion – Swinging would make you drag the rim of the wheel.

 

The proper action is to straighten the right arm without flattening the bent right wrist in a piston like action. The right wrist bend is maintained from address ‘impact fix’ to where both arms are straight. The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands from his right-to-left in front of his body and toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).  

Address: Impact Fix:
It all starts at address – the Hitter usually sets up with his hands in a position that is called ‘Impact Fix’. This position, while not mandatory, allows for an easier pickup of the Primary Lever Assembly as a whole by the right arm (the right forearm takeaway). Also it establishes the proper impact alignments right away which includes a bent back right wrist that must be maintained through impact. From this position all you have to do is to freeze your wrists into their position and move the whole thing back and forth with your right arm pretty much in a piston like motion. A good way to feel this motion is, without a club, to hold your left wrist with your right hand and move your left arm back and forth. This is the principle of the Hitting motion.

 

Half Roll of the clubface:
Due to the way the club is moved, the clubface doesn’t open as much as the Swinging motion during the backswing and doesn’t close as much in the downstroke. Consequently, Hitting naturally produces what is called a ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface: When you look at the clubface at both arms straight, you should see the clubface looking 45 degrees left (for righties) instead of 90 degrees left in the Swinging motion (full roll, clubface closed). This ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface produces a no-roll feel which is very important to note as you might intuitively search to feel a roll. This Half Roll also has a natural fade tendency. As a consequence, the Hitter tends to adopt a stronger grip position to counterbalance that effect and produce straight shots. You should also take into account that the more forward the ball in your stance (Driver for example), the more the need for a slightly closed face and/or a stronger grip because of the more layback of the clubface is at this point. Experiment with your grip to find the correct amount of shut face to induce.

 

Face constantly looking at the ball:
Another interesting fact is the way the clubface swivels during the swing. Unlike the Swinger whose clubface almost immediately swivels against the plane of the swing, the Hitter doesn’t rotate the clubface but rather keeps it ‘looking at the ball’ during the backswing. The clubface stays at right angles against the face of the plane. This is the natural byproduct of the angled hinge and you must not intend to rotate it clockwise/open on the backswing or you will have to consciously rotate it back counterclockwise on the downswing for proper contact.
 

Backstroke (DEVELOP THRUST):
The backstroke of a  Hitter begins from 'impact fix' with the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to apply a push force which extends (straightens) the left arm and moves the arm/club structure to the top of the backstroke. It is imperative to have the right wrist in a bent-back condition to carry it in that same bent-back position throughout the backstroke and downstroke. The left arm resists the right arm’s push motion against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to form a solid structure of the arm/club unit as it moves into the backstroke. This is the loading process that develops THRUST! The left arm resisting the right arm's push motion provides an extended (straight) left arm that will naturally be driven downward in the downstroke by the right arm thrusting straight outward from the launching pad that is the right shoulder. The straight left arm, although inert, is very important to the right arm as it acts as a checkrein, preventing the right arm from bending too much when accumulating its thrust power when folding at the elbow. The straight left arm also helps to guide the hands into impact when releasing the right arm's stored thrust power. The golfer moves his right shoulder (which is a launching pad for the thrusting right arm) down plane at start down to get it closer to the ball so he does not run out of right arm before impact.  

 

Establishing the Lag: Drive Loading:
You will discover that the piston like action of the right arm produces a shorter backswing than the Swinger due to the position of the right elbow set to push against the shaft instead of pulling. From there, usually the hands cannot go higher than shoulder high – which is called the Top. But, from such a shorter backstroke, the tendency is to rush on the downstroke. Make sure you give yourself enough time to transition from Top to Start Down and accomplish the necessary Drive Loading.

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

Power Accumulators for Hitting:

You’ll use 3 power accumulators but will only have to think of using just one

The key power accumulator is PA#1):

► Power Accumulator #1: Straighten out (straight out) thrust of the right arm 
Power Accumulator #2: The uncocking of the left wrist
Power Accumulator #3: The rotation of the entire left  
► PA#2 & PA#3 happens automatically with the action and motion of PA#1

 

Pressure Points for Hitting:
You’ll use 3 pressure points:

The key pressure point is PP#1
► Pressure Point #1: The palm of your right hand against the aft section of the grip and the base of your left thumb.
Pressure Point #2: The last 3 fingers of your left hand.
Pressure Point #3: The index/trigger finger of the right hand resisting against the club wanting to stay behind.

 

 

 

 

 

[mocokid]

3 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@mocokid - Here are some notes applicable to 'Hitting" you will likely find very helpful. I have used bold red to identify certain parts of the notes to help them stand out because I believe they are most important to digest and refer back to if needed.

 

Hitting

 

Muscular Thrust:
Unlike the Swinger who manipulates centrifugal force, the pure Hitter ONLY uses his right arm to activate the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole). Swinging is about dragging (pulling) the club whereas Hitting is about driving (pushing) the club - yet with the hitting method the clubhead lags behind the  force, so there's that to contemplate. 

 

When hitting the muscle involved here is the right triceps as it is responsible for straightening the right arm. The main action involved here is a muscular thrust of the right arm to the base of the left thumb (PP#1) which drives against the Primary Lever Assembly (that is the Left Arm plus the club as a whole).

 

The clubhead is not thrown into orbit by the pivot like with a Swinger, instead the Hitter pushes radially against the radius - against the shaft with his right arm only onto the base of his left thumb (PP#1). Think of it like pushing against one spoke of a bicycle wheel to put the wheel into motion – Swinging would make you drag the rim of the wheel.

 

The proper action is to straighten the right arm without flattening the bent right wrist in a piston like action. The right wrist bend is maintained from address ‘impact fix’ to where both arms are straight. The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands from his right-to-left in front of his body and toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).  

Address: Impact Fix:
It all starts at address – the Hitter usually sets up with his hands in a position that is called ‘Impact Fix’. This position, while not mandatory, allows for an easier pickup of the Primary Lever Assembly as a whole by the right arm (the right forearm takeaway). Also it establishes the proper impact alignments right away which includes a bent back right wrist that must be maintained through impact. From this position all you have to do is to freeze your wrists into their position and move the whole thing back and forth with your right arm pretty much in a piston like motion. A good way to feel this motion is, without a club, to hold your left wrist with your right hand and move your left arm back and forth. This is the principle of the Hitting motion.

 

Half Roll of the clubface:
Due to the way the club is moved, the clubface doesn’t open as much as the Swinging motion during the backswing and doesn’t close as much in the downstroke. Consequently, Hitting naturally produces what is called a ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface: When you look at the clubface at both arms straight, you should see the clubface looking 45 degrees left (for righties) instead of 90 degrees left in the Swinging motion (full roll, clubface closed). This ‘Half Roll’ of the clubface produces a no-roll feel which is very important to note as you might intuitively search to feel a roll. This Half Roll also has a natural fade tendency. As a consequence, the Hitter tends to adopt a stronger grip position to counterbalance that effect and produce straight shots. You should also take into account that the more forward the ball in your stance (Driver for example), the more the need for a slightly closed face and/or a stronger grip because of the more layback of the clubface is at this point. Experiment with your grip to find the correct amount of shut face to induce.

 

Face constantly looking at the ball:
Another interesting fact is the way the clubface swivels during the swing. Unlike the Swinger whose clubface almost immediately swivels against the plane of the swing, the Hitter doesn’t rotate the clubface but rather keeps it ‘looking at the ball’ during the backswing. The clubface stays at right angles against the face of the plane. This is the natural byproduct of the angled hinge and you must not intend to rotate it clockwise/open on the backswing or you will have to consciously rotate it back counterclockwise on the downswing for proper contact.
 

Backstroke (DEVELOP THRUST):
The backstroke of a  Hitter begins from 'impact fix' with the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to apply a push force which extends (straightens) the left arm and moves the arm/club structure to the top of the backstroke. It is imperative to have the right wrist in a bent-back condition to carry it in that same bent-back position throughout the backstroke and downstroke. The left arm resists the right arm’s push motion against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) to form a solid structure of the arm/club unit as it moves into the backstroke. This is the loading process that develops THRUST! The left arm resisting the right arm's push motion provides an extended (straight) left arm that will naturally be driven downward in the downstroke by the right arm thrusting straight outward from the launching pad that is the right shoulder. The straight left arm, although inert, is very important to the right arm as it acts as a checkrein, preventing the right arm from bending too much when accumulating its thrust power when folding at the elbow. The straight left arm also helps to guide the hands into impact when releasing the right arm's stored thrust power. The golfer moves his right shoulder (which is a launching pad for the thrusting right arm) down plane at start down to get it closer to the ball so he does not run out of right arm before impact.  

 

Establishing the Lag: Drive Loading:
You will discover that the piston like action of the right arm produces a shorter backswing than the Swinger due to the position of the right elbow set to push against the shaft instead of pulling. From there, usually the hands cannot go higher than shoulder high – which is called the Top. But, from such a shorter backstroke, the tendency is to rush on the downstroke. Make sure you give yourself enough time to transition from Top to Start Down and accomplish the necessary Drive Loading.

 

Drive Loading:
For the Hitter, an efficient way to establish Lag - is to resist the backstroke motion (by the right arm pushing against the base of the left thumb (PP#1) that extends the left arm), then perform a right arm thrust (straight out from the right shoulder's launching pad that has moved down plane to get closer to the ball) against the lagging clubhead and the resulting stressed/loaded clubshaft - striving to accelerate the stressed/loaded clubshaft with a slow and heavy start-down through impact to where both arms are straight. The Downstroke Pivot of the Hitter 'is' the Right Shoulder. The 'Hitter' does not need to rotate his body like a swinger must. The Right Shoulder must also provide the initial acceleration of the Power Package (Shoulders, Arms, Hands and Club). But beware! Since there is no torso pivot rotation like a swinger, you only have your bent right arm to provide the needed impetus (THRUST) to drive the arm/club structure. So, if the right arm begins to straighten too soon, you will have triggered the release, and you will run out of right arm before impact and produce Clubhead Throwaway. 

 

Slow Start Down;
For the Hitter a Slow Start Down is mandatory to allow for the right arm to properly get into position. In the transition from the Top to Start Down think Slow and Heavy.

 

Right Arm Straightens (Straight Out):
The Hitter’s right arm thrust is a straightening (straight out from the shoulder's launching pad) of the right arm at the elbow. This thrust force of the right arm causes the left hand to move away from the right shoulder which in turn drives the resisting hands downward which in turn drives the arm/club structure in the downstroke The Hitter must refrain from intentionally moving or driving his hands toward the target (this is a bad habit of amateurs that causes poor swings).

 

Pivot Action:
The Pivot (the body) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to push against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. In the Hitting stroke, you have to move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact.  

 

 

Power Accumulators for Hitting:

You’ll use 3 power accumulators but will only have to think of using just one

The key power accumulator is PA#1):

► Power Accumulator #1: Straighten out (straight out) thrust of the right arm 
Power Accumulator #2: The uncocking of the left wrist
Power Accumulator #3: The rotation of the entire left  
► PA#2 & PA#3 happens automatically with the action and motion of PA#1

 

Pressure Points for Hitting:
You’ll use 3 pressure points:

The key pressure point is PP#1
► Pressure Point #1: The palm of your right hand against the aft section of the grip and the base of your left thumb.
Pressure Point #2: The last 3 fingers of your left hand.
Pressure Point #3: The index/trigger finger of the right hand resisting against the club wanting to stay behind.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow thanks. Couple of questions, PP1 is produced by the bending and twisting of the right hand correct?  The 45* half roll, this is at P8?

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, mocokid said:

Wow thanks. Couple of questions, PP1 is produced by the bending and twisting of the right hand correct?  The 45* half roll, this is at P8?

No, no...  

 

PP#1 is a extremely important 'pressure point' where the palm (lifeline) of your right hand applies pressure against the base of your left thumb. Without properly using PP#1 all things fall apart...

 

Read and earnestly try to comprehend the list of notes I posted to you above...  

[KMeloney]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:02 PM, GreatStrike said:

No, no...  

 

PP#1 is a extremely important 'pressure point' where the palm (lifeline) of your right hand applies pressure against the base of your left thumb. Without properly using PP#1 all things fall apart...

 

Read and earnestly try to comprehend the list of notes I posted to you above...  

 

Speaking of the pressure against the base of the thumb... I find that I tend to put pressure into the grip just above my left thumb (further down the shaft). If I then pull or hook the ball, is it likely in part from not getting the pressure into the thumb? In other words, is the pressure maybe just too far down the shaft and causing the clubhead to release into the ball too early? Or, is the thumb pressure just a general guide, and any lefts are more the result of pressuring the shaft -- even if close to the thumb -- too early in the down swing?

[GreatStrike]

13 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

Speaking of the pressure against the base of the thumb... I find that I tend to put pressure into the grip just above my left thumb (further down the shaft). If I then pull or hook the ball, is it likely in part from not getting the pressure into the thumb? In other words, is the pressure maybe just too far down the shaft and causing the clubhead to release into the ball too early? Or, is the thumb pressure just a general guide, and any lefts are more the result of pressuring the shaft -- even if close to the thumb -- too early in the down swing?

 

@KMeloney - Wonderful perception and excellent question! 

 

It would make me think that a bit too much pressure was indeed being applied too far down the shaft from what is known as the 'coupling point'. So yes, your sense that it causes an early release of sorts (or the clubhead about to overtake the shaft) is likely spot-on. For what it's worth, a shaft that is too weak in the tip can cause a similar result.   

 

Oftentimes the conscious thought, or even unconscious thought, that moving the trail hand down the shaft a little bit closer toward the 'business end' (clubhead) can increase your speed, energy, force - but by doing this you actually create a little imbalance in that perfect arms/hands/club structure you so carefully built, which you now are able to recognize and feel regularly because you are able to make very sound golf swings on a regular, consistent basis. 

 

As with the tour pros, they focus on precise attention to detail - whether it be a particular feel or the grip with a full swing or when putting - they want to 'repeat' it precisely every time - because it means so much to the results. Swing problems can go from minor to dreadful even for the elite golfer rather quickly. You can probably understand that what might start out as being something very insignificant can cause major trouble if the player deviates much at all from he knows full well to be his line or proven boundary.  A good example of this is getting off a little bit with the grip or with alignment.  That's why you see so many tour pros fidgety about taking their grip - gripping and then re-gripping. And, using alignment sticks on the range and devices on the practice putting green.                   

 

As for considering 'any lefts' (pull or hook) to possibly be the result of pressuring the shaft too early in the downstroke - again, a very astute theory - I believe that it certainly can be caused by being a bit quick (i.e. too early) to thrust the right arm. However, I think you'll find that when you make that error (being a bit quick or early to thrust the right arm) you'll now just 'feel it' and know right away what you've done wrong from a self-awareness perspective. 

 

I gather from our communications that you are well on your way to having a really sound golf swing that you are already finding to be rewarding... Congrats to you!               

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[KMeloney]

Epic response, GS. Thank you.

 

I think that I've probably also misinterpreted the writings about the role of the pivot in the hitting swing to suggest that you don't really need to pivot or turn. You DO have to pivot and turn. Not turning enough has always -- regardless of swing "method" -- contributed to me hitting the ball left, and that holds true in the hitting swing, too.

Edited December 9, 2022 by KMeloney
spelling

[GreatStrike]

22 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Epic response, GS. Thank you.

 

I think that I've probably also misinterpreted the writings about the roll (sic) of the pivot in the hitting swing to suggest that you don't really need to pivot or turn. You DO have to pivot and turn. Not turning enough has always -- regardless of swing "method" -- contributed to me hitting the ball left, and that holds true in the hitting swing, too.

 

@KMeloney- I presume you meant 'role' (performance or action) of the pivot...

 

First and foremost, when Hitting the clubhead is not thrown into orbit by the pivot like it is with a Swinger therefore it would be a mistake to think that a similar amount of pivot (degree and speed) the Swinger needs is also needed by the Hitter. In fact, think of the pivot for the Hitter being the right shoulder moving into launch position in the downstroke. That one move naturally triggers plenty enough body/torso pivot for the Hitter. And this one simple move also prompts that mysterious weight shift and kinematic sequence that so many people find difficult to achieve. I've never seen a Hitter move his right shoulder down plane 'ready for launch' that didn't have a nice hip bump and weight shift which are biomechanically linked together and is a key indicator that the kinematic sequence is on-form.         

 

The Pivot (the body/torso rotating/turning) of the Hitter doesn’t perform the blast of the left arm off the chest like that of a Swinger. Instead, the purpose of the body pivot for a Hitter is really quite simplistic - to put the right shoulder into position (closer to the ball - down plane) as a platform to thrust or push the right arm straight outward against. Think of a sprinter pushing against his starting-blocks. The simplicity of a Hitting golf swing makes learning it easy and uncomplicated compared to all the unnatural nuances of a Swinging golf swing.  

 

In the Hitting golf swing, you must move your right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball and deliver the right arm thrust. Moving the right shoulder down plane closer to the ball prevents the golfer from running out of right arm before impact. Also, by moving the right shoulder down plane to get it closer to the ball, this causes the body to pivot, rotate and turn. Not to any great degree like needed by the Swinger mind you, but plenty enough to get the job done. That's all the pivot and turn that is needed by the Hitter. Attempting for more pivot would be a mistake and probably throw the Hitter's kinematic sequence out of kilter.   

 

I think any Hitter would be very hard-pressed 'not' to pivot (rotate/turn) enough when moving their right shoulder down plane as the precursor to thrusting the right arm straight out. That is why the Hitter moving the right shoulder down plane can be thought of as 'the pivot' for his swing. 

 

 

 

  

Edited December 9, 2022 by GreatStrike
orthography

[KMeloney]

11 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@KMeloney- I presume you meant 'role' (performance or action) of the pivot...

 

 Ack. Yes, sure did. Corrected.

[rondo01]

 

[GreatStrike]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:03 PM, rondo01 said:

 

 

@rondo01 - Thanks for the private message including your kind words, and the video of your golf swing progress. This 'move' video you posted (above) is dedicated for those golfers that are learning a 'swinging' method golf swing. The 'swinging' method begins by a pure pulling action on the clubshaft longitudinally as if to stretch the shaft telescopically. If you believe 'swinging' is the best method for you, then please know ahead of time that 'swinging' is by far the most difficult method to learn and to maintain in good form because it is so delicate and so easy to disrupt.

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by GreatStrike
orthography

[rondo01]

Absolutely; I’m afraid I’m on the swing train whether I want to be or not — more a matter of “listening to the body” instead of a conscious choice. Anytime I’ve moved towards a hit motion I automatically want to power it with the shoulders and send it over the top. The pull negates most if not all of that!
 

I plan on grab Dan’s pro in the new year and getting a few online lessons from him in the spring to see how it goes. 
 

anyone else in this boat? Helpful drills? 

Edited December 17, 2022 by rondo01

[GreatStrike]

On 12/17/2022 at 5:14 PM, rondo01 said:

Absolutely; I’m afraid I’m on the swing train whether I want to be or not — more a matter of “listening to the body” instead of a conscious choice. Anytime I’ve moved towards a hit motion I automatically want to power it with the shoulders and send it over the top. The pull negates most if not all of that!
 

I plan on grab Dan’s pro in the new year and getting a few online lessons from him in the spring to see how it goes. 
 

anyone else in this boat? Helpful drills? 

 

@rondo01 - When what you say happens,it means you are overusing the upper body in the downswing.

 

Pulling the clubshaft longitudinally (as the 'swinging' method requires) the golfer must use his hands (primarily his lead hand) to get things moving without any aid from the shoulders. If the golfer can't isolate his shoulders from using his lead hand to 'stretch the shaft' he'll be prone to swing over-the-top. It's a common problem.

 

However, what is unique with the 'hitting' method is that the golfer's intent and focus is on an entirely different part of his body as well as an entirely different  direction of travel compared to that of a 'swinging' method. Once you understand this about the 'hitting' method and the light bulb starts flashing, your outlook and all things golf-related can change drastically for the better. 

 

With 'hitting' the golfer's intent and focus is entirely on his trail (dominant) arm straightening  (straightening straight outward) from the launch pad of his the right shoulder (as if to throw a punch out beyond the toes of his right foot) This right arm straightening thrust is created by his tricep. This right arm travel direction is 90 degrees opposed to where 99.9% of amateur golfers try to make their left arm (or both arms) travel, which is toward their target or toward the ball. I fully realize that this likely makes no sense to you, but it's an absolute fact...   

 

So to recap a bit - instead of a left hand that makes a pulling action we have a right arm that straightens. But here is the most important and most bizarre and mysterious thing of all - - Instead of the right hand and the club traveling in the direction of the target or toward the ball (like with the 'swinging' method) - the 'hitting' method has the right arm's direction of travel moving straight outward like he's thrusting his straightening right arm out in front of his right foot!  Bizarre, huh? When this outward direction of travel is the intent and focus there is literally no way the golfer is going to use his shoulders to make a swing over-the-top.  With that said, it is clear that in the past when you have 'moved towards a hit motion' you simply did not know or understand what you were supposed to do...which unfortunately is the epitome of amateur golfers everywhere. Sadly, they usually go throughout their entire lives never being taught or understanding what they need to do. And they wonder why they can't improve!     

 

   

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Delacroix]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:30 PM, GreatStrike said:

 

@moehogan -  This rather old Lynn Blake video about PP#3 (Pressure Point #3, Where are You?) is quite interesting I think. I recall having seen this video before but I apparently overlooked specifically what Lynn Blake was explaining. I must admit, watching it again now, it has definitely piqued my interest!

 

He says PP#3 moves to the top of the shaft (grip) at the top of the backswing - and that is why many people can't feel it...because they think PP#3 is always behind the shaft (grip). I think I thought that also! Please tell me what you think.

 

   

 

I think this is what threw me off for so long

 

Hogan said this pressure point like pushes through to impact so I always thought I should feel it on the side.... well at the top of the swing and in transition it very much so feels on top of the grip so I thought that was wrong... but it eventually returns to the side of the grip

 

So topsy turvy man this game is nuts

[GreatStrike]

 

Eric - I think this is what you're asking about... 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by GreatStrike

[rondo01]

GS, curious if this is your pickle jar idea referenced around 4:40 min into the video:

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by rondo01

[GreatStrike]

17 hours ago, rondo01 said:

GS, curious if this is your pickle jar idea referenced around 4:40 min into the video:

 

 

 

@rondo01 - Correct - but the pickle jar method I covered is definitely not for everyone. Keep in mind that using this method (in the video you posted) for shaft lean and to square the clubface requires exquisite use of the hands, wrists and forearms and impeccable timing which typically only a very small percentage of highly dedicated golfers can accomplish. Most are totally unsuccessful with the ingredients for that recipe. The reason why is because there are elements of both 'swinging' and 'hitting' in that method, which most people simply aren't able to find success with. It's like twirling a lasso while cracking a bullwhip at the same time - two completely different actions. Most believe that 'swinging' and 'hitting' are mutually exclusive and cannot happen simultaneously - and should not be attempted simultaneously.       

 

In my opinion you are much better served learning a true 'swinging' method (pure pulling longitudinally on the clubshaft) first and then work up toward using minor hand and forearm manipulation to control the clubface and shaft lean/trajectory. To seek the latter first before learning the 'swinging' method is going to prove practically impossible. You must first figure out how a true 'swinging' golf swing can square the clubface without any muscular manipulation from the hands. Then and only then should you attempt to add very subtle influences with the hands/wrists.  

 

Even the white arrow of the video is misleading to most golfers because it gives the distinct impression that the arms and club are to be slung toward the target or the ball. That is indeed commonsense, but the golf swing throws commonsense out the window - unless of course you want an open clubface at impact and an over-the-top out-to-in club path and an early extension release with no shaft lean and muscle-bound shoulders, arms and hands with dead clubhead speed and fat gouges taken before the ball. That's why the 'hitting' method makes much more sense once you actually learn what it does and you feel it and see the results yourself firsthand...      

 

But by far the easiest golf swing method to learn and become an expert golfer with a sound golf swing in my opinion is what we've been discussing most recently - using the dominant right hand/wrist to control the shaft lean with a simple half-roll to perfectly square the clubface (which can be achieved virtually every single swing you make), and the piston thrust of the right arm straightening straight out from the shoulder for massive ball flattening compression power. 

 

Learning a 'swinging' golf swing is very difficult for most everyone and most people never can accomplish doing it after decades of trying with multiple lessons and all sorts of training aids. To add to the mysterious character of a 'swinging' golf swing - it's very easy to lose and lasting results are actually somewhat rare, especially with a layoff due to injury or sickness. It's very fleeting even for the most experienced golfers. Read up on 1991 British Open Champion Ian Baker-Finch and how he totally lost his ability to 'swing' a golf club.

 

The message I'm attempting to get across is that to learn a 'swinging' golf swing with elements of a 'hitting' golf swing method intertwined is just asking for failure from the get-go, which is exactly what most amateurs try to do every time that take a swing with their golf club. I'm afraid the hand/wrist action in the video you are asking about would likely lead most people to face the same frustrating results we see on driving ranges and golf courses all the time.    

 

Pick one - 'swinging' or 'hitting'...but not a combination of both.     

 

 

         

Edited December 24, 2022 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

Joseph - You're quite the amateur sleuth!

 

Yes, I did two cameos with Hunter Mahan for Ace Hardware back then and a separate one for Scotts Company.  

[Delacroix]

GS you are a wizard and I am eternally grateful for your patience and constant well thought out responses to these threads

 

I have felt the swinging sensation a few times, I have felt that my right hand overpowers my backswing and I am well under plane on the backswing so I thought this would be a good fix. I proceeded to hit about 50 balls at the range with my lead hand only with an 8 iron and once I felt the swing sensation it was quite easy to with one hand power a sequence to get a one handed 8 iron nearly 150 yards. However like you said it feels inconsistent. My lead hand is not my dominant hand, it is not an intelligent hand and is at the mercy of the forces applied to the loose lead arm being flung off the body and succumb to the centripital forces to square the face.

 

However when you get it down it feels good. Like I stated a few months ago I feel like I get to the top of the BS, bow the left wrist, and I can actually feel the toe of the head and like I fling a frisbee. However like you said it is wildly inconsistent. Too much bow and it is duck hook city, further more... there is more wiggle room to bow the frisbee throw with higher lofted clubs, but less so with say a 6 iron... like suddenly I'm fighting the toppling of the clubhead.

 

So I would like to try a hitting motion but feel that that is what I've been trying to do for my 20 years of piss poor golf. But I need consistency. Some days I go to the course and it feels like I can't get an iron up in the air.

 

I feel like I am mixing hitting and swinging now which you said is a recipe for disaster. Can you tell me whether these methodologies are swinging or hitting, so I can sort them out and stick to one methodology alone?

 

1. Gankas

There is a lot of perseverance about wrist angles, and then rotating through the shot. It feels quite clunky for me so I don't set my wrist angles until transition. I have to say that this makes the least sense to me. But my friend is a scratch golfer and has it figured out and says I should stick with it.

 

Gankas demonstrating G snaps for wrist angles to simply turn through the ball

 

I got both G snaps for Christmas and have been experimenting with them in the garage for a few days

 

2. Monte Scheinblum

I actually attended a clinic with Monte a few years ago, but my swing was vastly different, my backswing was so long and my reverse pivot was insane I could actually see my club head in the backswing, like John Daly exagerrated. His one piece of advice to me was "don't turn in the backswing" and it fixed it immediately.

 

However years later now my backswing is sucked in and so flat, my arms are under my right shoulder. But when I try to not turn and simply "throw the angles" I can actually connect quite well. 

 

Monte No Turn Cast

 

3. Kallasy Swing Magic

I saw a video of someone who found this thing at a yard sale and I had to try it. It helps apply the trail hand correctly, but sometimes I feel like I'm swinging it with the left and the right hand kind of passively reconnects, and sometimes I hit with it and and trying to forcibly reapply the right hand. I must say that one range session I brought this with me and would take 10 practice hits with it thinking about the no turn cast and then hit a ball with a real iron.... and it was like the name suggests, swing magic. That beautiful feel when you feel the ball compressing on the sweet spot of the club, almost as if I was dumping everything a foot or two behind the ball and the club connected perfectly.

 

Kallasy Swing Magic Tutorial

 

4. Swing a rope

I use this to warm up, not necessarily as a drill. Sometimes I focus on my lead hand which feels like a swing. Sometimes I focus on my trail hand which feels like a hit. I feel like this one doesn't ingrain a hit or a swing but can be used for either modality.

 

Random rope swinging video

 

 

So if you wouldn't mind... can you give your opinion on whether options 1, 2, 3, and 4 are trying to ingrain swing feels? Or hit feels? I can't decide which one to focus on, but would very much like to take your advice and stick with hitting (even though my scratch friend says he feels like he swings it). 

 

I am a dedicated student I spent 2 hours in my garage practicing and am just looking to focus on a single methodology and will gladly take whatever advice you impart. Just hesitant because I feel like I've been trying to hit for 20 years... but am obviously doing it incorrectly with duck hooks, I mean I can barely get a 7 iron in the air most rounds it's flat out embarrassing.

 

I had a lesson last month and will gladly post my awful video if you'd like to see it.

 

Thank you once again... honestly I would gladly venmo you some $ for all of your time

[berndgeurts]

11 hours ago, Delacroix said:

GS you are a wizard and I am eternally grateful for your patience and constant well thought out responses to these threads

 

I have felt the swinging sensation a few times, I have felt that my right hand overpowers my backswing and I am well under plane on the backswing so I thought this would be a good fix. I proceeded to hit about 50 balls at the range with my lead hand only with an 8 iron and once I felt the swing sensation it was quite easy to with one hand power a sequence to get a one handed 8 iron nearly 150 yards. However like you said it feels inconsistent. My lead hand is not my dominant hand, it is not an intelligent hand and is at the mercy of the forces applied to the loose lead arm being flung off the body and succumb to the centripital forces to square the face.

 

However when you get it down it feels good. Like I stated a few months ago I feel like I get to the top of the BS, bow the left wrist, and I can actually feel the toe of the head and like I fling a frisbee. However like you said it is wildly inconsistent. Too much bow and it is duck hook city, further more... there is more wiggle room to bow the frisbee throw with higher lofted clubs, but less so with say a 6 iron... like suddenly I'm fighting the toppling of the clubhead.

 

So I would like to try a hitting motion but feel that that is what I've been trying to do for my 20 years of piss poor golf. But I need consistency. Some days I go to the course and it feels like I can't get an iron up in the air.

 

I feel like I am mixing hitting and swinging now which you said is a recipe for disaster. Can you tell me whether these methodologies are swinging or hitting, so I can sort them out and stick to one methodology alone?

 

1. Gankas

There is a lot of perseverance about wrist angles, and then rotating through the shot. It feels quite clunky for me so I don't set my wrist angles until transition. I have to say that this makes the least sense to me. But my friend is a scratch golfer and has it figured out and says I should stick with it.

 

Gankas demonstrating G snaps for wrist angles to simply turn through the ball

 

I got both G snaps for Christmas and have been experimenting with them in the garage for a few days

 

2. Monte Scheinblum

I actually attended a clinic with Monte a few years ago, but my swing was vastly different, my backswing was so long and my reverse pivot was insane I could actually see my club head in the backswing, like John Daly exagerrated. His one piece of advice to me was "don't turn in the backswing" and it fixed it immediately.

 

However years later now my backswing is sucked in and so flat, my arms are under my right shoulder. But when I try to not turn and simply "throw the angles" I can actually connect quite well. 

 

Monte No Turn Cast

 

3. Kallasy Swing Magic

I saw a video of someone who found this thing at a yard sale and I had to try it. It helps apply the trail hand correctly, but sometimes I feel like I'm swinging it with the left and the right hand kind of passively reconnects, and sometimes I hit with it and and trying to forcibly reapply the right hand. I must say that one range session I brought this with me and would take 10 practice hits with it thinking about the no turn cast and then hit a ball with a real iron.... and it was like the name suggests, swing magic. That beautiful feel when you feel the ball compressing on the sweet spot of the club, almost as if I was dumping everything a foot or two behind the ball and the club connected perfectly.

 

Kallasy Swing Magic Tutorial

 

4. Swing a rope

I use this to warm up, not necessarily as a drill. Sometimes I focus on my lead hand which feels like a swing. Sometimes I focus on my trail hand which feels like a hit. I feel like this one doesn't ingrain a hit or a swing but can be used for either modality.

 

Random rope swinging video

 

 

So if you wouldn't mind... can you give your opinion on whether options 1, 2, 3, and 4 are trying to ingrain swing feels? Or hit feels? I can't decide which one to focus on, but would very much like to take your advice and stick with hitting (even though my scratch friend says he feels like he swings it). 

 

I am a dedicated student I spent 2 hours in my garage practicing and am just looking to focus on a single methodology and will gladly take whatever advice you impart. Just hesitant because I feel like I've been trying to hit for 20 years... but am obviously doing it incorrectly with duck hooks, I mean I can barely get a 7 iron in the air most rounds it's flat out embarrassing.

 

I had a lesson last month and will gladly post my awful video if you'd like to see it.

 

Thank you once again... honestly I would gladly venmo you some $ for all of your time

This post sums up my feelings, questions and progress throughout this thread 

[GreatStrike]

 

On 1/2/2023 at 12:23 PM, Delacroix said:

GS you are a wizard and I am eternally grateful for your patience and constant well thought out responses to these threads

 

I have felt the swinging sensation a few times, I have felt that my right hand overpowers my backswing and I am well under plane on the backswing so I thought this would be a good fix. I proceeded to hit about 50 balls at the range with my lead hand only with an 8 iron and once I felt the swing sensation it was quite easy to with one hand power a sequence to get a one handed 8 iron nearly 150 yards. However like you said it feels inconsistent. My lead hand is not my dominant hand, it is not an intelligent hand and is at the mercy of the forces applied to the loose lead arm being flung off the body and succumb to the centripital forces to square the face.

 

However when you get it down it feels good. Like I stated a few months ago I feel like I get to the top of the BS, bow the left wrist, and I can actually feel the toe of the head and like I fling a frisbee. However like you said it is wildly inconsistent. Too much bow and it is duck hook city, further more... there is more wiggle room to bow the frisbee throw with higher lofted clubs, but less so with say a 6 iron... like suddenly I'm fighting the toppling of the clubhead.

 

So I would like to try a hitting motion but feel that that is what I've been trying to do for my 20 years of piss poor golf. But I need consistency. Some days I go to the course and it feels like I can't get an iron up in the air.

 

I feel like I am mixing hitting and swinging now which you said is a recipe for disaster. Can you tell me whether these methodologies are swinging or hitting, so I can sort them out and stick to one methodology alone?

 

Thank you once again... 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 11:26 PM, berndgeurts said:

This post sums up my feelings, questions and progress throughout this thread 

 

 

Both @Delacroix & @berndgeurts :

 

There is an excellent book titled See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside by 1991 PGA Teacher of the Year Michael Hebron.

 

 

I highly suggest reading this book to better understand what a golfer must really do to accomplish having a 'swinging' golf swing. 

 

What is typical for nearly all golfers to do when trying the swing a golf club is to muscle the golf club with the thinking that the golf club should be swung around their body from the outside. This is the problem! It is 100% incorrect if the golfer is to have a 'swinging' golf swing. 

 

There should be no doubt about it - there is nothing wrong or incorrect about having a 'hitting' golf swing which is often said to be the complete opposite of a 'swinging' golf swing - with the elements of these two very different golf swing techniques being mutually exclusive and can not happen simultaneously without total disaster being the end result.

 

Most recently in this thread, the 'hitting' golf swing technique has been discussed. It is by far the easiest to learn and for most people, probably the best method...and the method that should be taught to all aspiring golfers.        

 

  

Edited January 10, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[nitram]

21 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

 

 

 

There is a book titled See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside by 1991 PGA Teacher of the Year Michael Hebron.

 

 

I highly suggest reading it to better understand what a golfer must do to accomplish having a 'swinging' golf swing. 

 

What is typical for nearly all golfers to do when trying the swing a golf club is to muscle the golf club with the thinking that the golf club should be swung around their body from the outside. This is the problem! It is 100% incorrect if the golfer is to have a 'swinging' golf swing. 

 

There is nothing wrong or incorrect about having a 'hitting' golf swing which is often said to be the complete opposite of a 'swinging' golf swing - with the elements of these two very different golf sing techniques being mutually exclusive and can not happen simultaneously without total disaster being the end result.

 

Most recently in this thread the 'hitting' golf swing technique has been discussed. It is by far the easiest to learn and for most people probably the best method...      

 

  

One of the best (top 3) golf instruction books ever written.

[Delacroix]

Excellent... purchasing now

 

I never played baseball except for in my backyard growing up

 

However I played lacrosse year round for nearly 2 decades. And I feel like lacrosse definitely is more of a slinging type action which may fit into a swinging golf swing.

 

You feel the weight of the ball in the mesh and you can drop it or raise it to any plane you want during the backswing and where the ball releases and travels to the goal; high corner, goalie's legs, left post... is simply an unexplainable feeling to me but as if you were slinging a weight off of the stick itself. Like the ball is a weight donut around the stick freely sliding around and where it goes is more based on the sequence of your timing... holding the release, flicking through the release, etc. In my wind up my body knows EXACTLY what to do to get it directly to where I want it to go, I don't think about a damn thing.

 

I've been DESPERATELY searching for a golf instructor or youtube video who can translate some lacrosse feels into a golf swing but alas. 

 

But I think I'm a swinger. 😉

Edited January 10, 2023 by Delacroix

[GreatStrike]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:33 AM, Delacroix said:

Excellent... purchasing now

 

I never played baseball except for in my backyard growing up

 

However I played lacrosse year round for nearly 2 decades. And I feel like lacrosse definitely is more of a slinging type action which may fit into a swinging golf swing.

 

You feel the weight of the ball in the mesh and you can drop it or raise it to any plane you want during the backswing and where the ball releases and travels to the goal; high corner, goalie's legs, left post... is simply an unexplainable feeling to me but as if you were slinging a weight off of the stick itself. Like the ball is a weight donut around the stick freely sliding around and where it goes is more based on the sequence of your timing... holding the release, flicking through the release, etc. In my wind up my body knows EXACTLY what to do to get it directly to where I want it to go, I don't think about a damn thing.

 

I've been DESPERATELY searching for a golf instructor or youtube video who can translate some lacrosse feels into a golf swing but alas. 

 

But I think I'm a swinger. 😉

 

@Delacroix - I clearly understand your description of lacrosse related feelings with the weight of the ball in the mesh and timing the release, etc. However, 'swinging' a golf club is vastly different, at least in my perception.

 

The reason I am an advocate of the 'hitting' method for most aspiring golfers is because the 'hitting' method encompasses some of the major conditions or elements that 'swingers' nearly always have major trouble with, or are never able to achieve. Yet these conditions are absolutely necessary (must-have) if the 'swinging' golfer is to have much success and progress. 

 

For example, the 'hitting' method demands these elements: shaft lean, delofting the clubface and maintaining a bent-back trail wrist - all of which are quite easy for 'hitting' golfers to learn but are extremely troubling for 'swinging' golfers to acquire in their golf swing. Even a proper backstroke for the 'hitter' is easy to learn because it actually contains a principal facet of the hitter's full golf swing, unlike with the 'swinging' golfer because their backstroke is often or typically a one arm unstructured, weak wavering in space carryback performed by the non-dominant lead arm and a lackadaisical weak lead wrist.

 

The 'swinger' has a lot of collateral things to manage - things such as: the pivot, shoulder turn, lead wrist c0ck, sustaining lead wrist c0ck, the release or uncocking of the lead wrist, the roll, twist or swivel of the lead arm and wrist to square the clubface, incorporating ample shaft lean and delofting the clubface through the impact zone for good compression and desired trajectory. The 'hitter' isn't vexed with all that!           

 

Here are some questions to ponder: 

What percentage of amateur golfers can't figure out how to obtain shaft lean?

What percentage of amateur golfers can't maintain a bent-back trail wrist and end up flipping? 

What percentage of amateur golfers swing over-the-top or have an out-to-in clubhead path with an open clubface?

What percentage of amateur golfers suffer early extension?

What percentage of amateur golfers are unable to square the clubface through impact most of the time?

What percentage of amateur golfers are unable to make contact precisely on the sweet spot? 

What percentage of amateur golfers lack solid contact and don't compress the ball as they should?

What percentage of amateur golfers lack distance they feel they should have?

What percentage of amateur golfers can't figure out how to obtain a good kinematic sequence?

 

The answer to all the above questions is - By and large, almost every amateur golfer that follows customary golf swing advice that proposes a 'swinging' golf swing method.      

  

Best of luck figuring out how to be a successful 'swinger'!  By the looks and the results of most, it ain't easy...

 

 

 

             

Edited January 11, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

Brad,

 

Fair question. I'll get to the answer in a moment.

 

Only 1% of the population is truly ambidextrous. I happen to be one of those rare individuals. I can play golf equally well right-handed or left-handed. As you might imagine I can only guess what it really feels like to have a dominant side, and of course a less skilled or generally weaker, non-dominant side. What you might find interesting is that I can play golf from either side with the 'swinging' method golf swing or the 'hitting' method golf swing.

 

I am admittedly oblivious to the difficulties the average person has when trying to 'swing' (literally) a golf club, but as you might can surmise I can easily see what they are doing wrong - the reason why I can is because - being able to 'swing' or 'hit' and being able to play from either side I know that if I were to make the same incorrect or bad movement or action; I know what the unfavorable result would be. This gives me the unique ability to see things from a different perspective that is helpful with instruction and making recommendations.  

 

Brad, I have experienced first-hand enough people that have struggled trying to learn how to 'swing' a golf club to know they would be 'ahead of the game' (so to speak) if they chose to give the 'hitting' method an honest try. I have seen individuals change from literally being unable to strike a golf ball well enough to score under triple-digits to play in the high 70s or low 80s just two or three months after switching to the 'hitting' method. Then as well I have seen individuals that have tried for many decades to learn the 'swinging' method never to get any better...   

 

PS - Thanks for the kind words in your message! 

 

 

     

Edited January 11, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Moonbison]

I need to transition to throwing rather than twisting. My square take away in combo with twisting is causing me to come out to in with a presented open club face. 

[GreatStrike]

Clint - Think about how your downswing resembles someone making a weak, wide roundhouse open-hand slap and compare that to how a pro boxer extends his right arm out straight to make a straight right (a.k.a. right cross) knockout punch.

 

With a 'hitting' method golf swing your power and ball compressing energy comes from the thrust of your right arm straightening straight out from the shoulder which drives the hands and club in a radius arc in the downstroke.

 

 

 

     

[GreatStrike]

Clint - Yes! You're on the right track. When cycling, your power to the bicycle's pedals (and to the chain and cassette gears) comes from the thrust of extending or straightening out your legs. And, in a similar way to how your feet travel in an arc as you pedal due to the bike's pedals being connected to the crankset - in a 'hitting' method golf swing your hands and the club's handle (and the golf club) travels in an arc too - for the reason that your hands are connected to the end of your lead arm and therefore must travel an exact radius arc that is created by the lead arm. 

 

Contrarily to this, is the 'swinging' method golfer doesn't have the benefit of the pushing force of the right arm pushing the palm of the right hand on the lead hand's thumb (PP#1) to drive the hands and the club's handle (and golf club) in a very definite radius arc with solid structure in the downstroke. What typically happens is the golfer that tries to use a 'swinging' method golf swing attempts to swing or guide his hands and golf club handle in a non-exact radius arc in mere space without much solid structure and without the stretch tension that 'hitting' naturally provides from the push force on the lead hand's thumb (PP#1). In other words, it is like he is attempting to swing a weight around on the end of a string without the string being taut under tension and with no structured travel arc. 

 

I think you're gaining an understanding of it now. It appears its all starting to make sense...                

[GreatStrike]

Sean - Thanks!

 

To change to, or to adopt, a hitting technique I have found the best approach is to change the mindset from that of using clubhead speed to that of actually doing what is necessary to compress the golf ball. In other words, instead of thinking about applying clubhead speed to launch the golf ball, think instead about applying force or pressure onto the ball to compress and launch the golf ball off the clubface. The entire axiom of golf, and the golf swing in particular, concerns compressing the golf ball, whether it be a putt or a drive. 

 

Too often golfers will acquire bad or inferior swing mechanics (form) by trying to maximize their clubhead speed at impact when their results would be far better by learning to develop and apply maximum force onto the golf ball instead of hitting the golf ball with maximum clubhead speed. I think a lot of the wild and unorthodox golf swings are the result of golfers pursuing clubhead speed. Learning to compress the golf ball is what, in my opinion, is the difference between typical amateur golfers and the experts they desire to be.      

 

Just because an object is moving fast when it collides with another object (e.g. golf ball) doesn't necessarily mean it can or will apply maximum force to the other object. A perfect example of this is a head-on crash compared to a sideswipe, or a slap compared to a deep driving forceful blow. it is the deep driving force applied onto a golf ball that compresses and squeezes it to make the ball rebound and propel it off the clubface. A flush and square contact with a delofted clubface is a somewhat rare accomplishment when the golfer's focus is on clubhead speed. A 'hitting' technique golf swing actually sharpens the focus necessary to apply force onto the golf ball. 

 

 

 

Look at the result in the image below of this boxer's deep driving forceful, thrusting blow.

His target is his opponent's other jaw at least 6 inches beyond where he is making contact.

 

Do you drive your delofted and square clubface to a point beyond where it actually makes contact with your golf ball? 

Or are you more interested in your clubhead just going fast? 

A change in intent and mindset can lead to great improvement...   

 

 

 

I hope that helps! 

 

              

       

Edited March 24, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

Adam  - A Swinging action requires a lot of learning and a whole lot of maintenance. A Hitting action requires some building and only an average amount of right arm straightening (tricep) strength.

 

As the Australian multiple major winner tour professional Bradley Hughes says: A Hitting action can be likened to riding a bicycle. You turn up each day and start the engine. A Swinging action is like riding a bike BUT with amnesia. You would have to find that feel and swing and 'time' the arms straightening out away from the body on a daily basis.

 

Actually, a hitting action is very much like peddling a bicycle. A bicycle rider straightens his legs to apply a thrusting straightening motion onto the bike's pedals which drives the crank gear that causes the rear wheel to rotate. A golfer with a hitting action straightens his right arm to apply a push thrust motion onto his left thumb which drives his golf shaft and clubhead into the golf ball with both speed and force. This method is also the same principle of how the settlers would push on a wagon wheel's spoke to drive their wagon out of being stuck in mud. It's the same principle used for hundreds of years to swing an axe with both speed and force. Can you imagine chopping down a tree or forming logs for a log cabin with an axe using a swinging action (without the right arm straightening to drive the shaft/handle)?