Bryson on shallowing - thoughts?

[Duffer Mark]

Bryson says not to use your hands (ulnar deviation?) to shallow. 
 

Thoughts?
 

https://x.com/officialtourpro/status/1790534051285090812

[phizzy30]

This video speaks to me.  I tend to get steep on the way down and am working to shallow out a bit more so with with my arms and it's been working.  I almost have to exaggerate casting during my practice swings in order to naturally shallow out.  My divots are thinner and smaller and for whatever reason, my ball doesn't curve as much although that probably has to do more with better face control and path. 

Edited May 15 by phizzy30

[MidwestHacker]

It's pretty rare that I agree 100% with Bryson, but I do on this. I don't get the manipulation with the hands to shallow the club. At all. When Im hitting the ball best, it feels to me basically like what Btyson is describing; land on my front side foot, my hands are dropping "into" my trail pocket and Im rotating through the ball as hard as I want. No ulnar deviation forcing a shallowing motion. Maybe this helps players who are not in textbook positions after the backswing recover and get back on plane? 

[naj959]

Thought that video was more about speeding up the arms as opposed to leaving them up (gg style)? He still looks like he ulnar deviates to me. I'd be curious what Dana thinks. Obviously a feel BD likes/needs.

[Duffer Mark]

23 minutes ago, naj959 said:

Thought that video was more about speeding up the arms as opposed to leaving them up (gg style)? He still looks like he ulnar deviates to me. I'd be curious what Dana thinks. Obviously a feel BD likes/needs.

Yes, he ulnar deviates at the bottom of the arm drop. I meant he doesn’t seem to be consciously or purposely UDing to force the shallowing with the hands. 

[Hilts1969]

10 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Bryson says not to use your hands (ulnar deviation?) to shallow. 
 

Thoughts?
 

https://x.com/officialtourpro/status/1790534051285090812

RPReplay_Final1715738856.mov

 

He doesn't, he is using ulnar there. 

[Rdailey9108]

9 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Yes, he ulnar deviates at the bottom of the arm drop. I meant he doesn’t seem to be consciously or purposely UDing to force the shallowing with the hands. 

Yeah but do you think that if you don't ulnar deviate without thinking that it maybe a good idea to practice doing it?

[MK7Golf21]

from an implementation standpoint he is right, am's can try to do that super shallowing stuff but it rarely works out and makes them a worse golfer in the process. Much easier to do what he is saying which is keep the hands from going out too much which is an over the top move for most. 

[Socrates]

Must be my mindset....

 

Could've sworn it said "Bryson on Swallowing."

[Jugs]

12 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Bryson says not to use your hands (ulnar deviation?) to shallow. 

 

Thoughts?

 

1 hour ago, Rdailey9108 said:

...but do you think that if you don't ulnar deviate without thinking that it maybe a good idea to practice doing it?

 

Deviation is not the problem, it's a symptom, a symptom of a disconnect between top and bottom working together- it's not speed of one against the other rather unnecessarily moving a portion of a top against the bottom.     Making a full back turn from the ball to a good set up top, then working from ground up delays the hands and wrists until needed later when the right hand gets into the action.   If set properly at the top it's difficult to not rotate from ground up, it's about the only way to untangle, or unwind.   

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

You have to do it consciously if you’re not already doing it. 
 

You have to have the intention to do it as the first move down because the downswing takes 0.2 seconds and nobody, including Bryson, can consciously do this halfway to the ball. 
 

 

[KMeloney]

16 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Bryson says not to use your hands (ulnar deviation?) to shallow. 
 

Thoughts?
 

https://x.com/officialtourpro/status/1790534051285090812

 

Is he advocating against ulnar deviation, or against rotating the wrists clockwise to lay the shaft down? Because I don't see him ulnar deviating in the taboo move.

[Rbsiedsc]

1 minute ago, KMeloney said:

 

Is he advocating against ulnar deviation, or against rotating the wrists clockwise to lay the shaft down? Because I don't see him ulnar deviating in the taboo move.

I think he is arguing against focusing on wrist movements and instead focusing on hand/arm movement down which will naturally shallow out your club head. I think the AMG video on this also pointed that out.

[KMeloney]

8 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

I think he is arguing against focusing on wrist movements and instead focusing on hand/arm movement down which will naturally shallow out your club head. I think the AMG video on this also pointed that out.

I agree. But that isn't the contention of a few in this thread.

[Duffer Mark]

10 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

I think he is arguing against focusing on wrist movements and instead focusing on hand/arm movement down which will naturally shallow out your club head. I think the AMG video on this also pointed that out.

Yes, that is what I was attempting to say which is why I put a ? next to ulnar deviation. Bryson says stop trying to "manually" shallow. I don't know why folks focused on UD in particular. 

[Jugs]

Any measured BD hand graphs with that video showing or not, hard to see on screen view, but shaft gets under forearm plane so if any little bit is there that's where it would probably show up under load, maybe even a little bit there statically that we can't see.   The overall emphasis on a shallowing preference is an acquired taste.   

 

Shallowing comes from the feet and legs.    Bryson even states the progression:   with hands dropping in right hand pocket 'feel' being led by 'rotate' through the shot. 

[KMeloney]

58 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

Yes, that is what I was attempting to say which is why I put a ? next to ulnar deviation. Bryson says stop trying to "manually" shallow. I don't know why folks focused on UD in particular. 

 

I don't know why they did either, except that you brought it up. So, I guess I'm wondering why you brought it up, since I don't think Bryson did. lol

[Duffer Mark]

@KMeloneybecause part of Bryson’s illustration of manually shallowing included UD even if not mentioned by name. 😬 Funny thing is, I hardly said anything and made no judgements, just observations. 

[GoldenAges]

In my experience with speed training, shallowing is something that occurs naturally when you have a very fast transition at the top of the swing. With my natural swing tempo there is no shallowing. If you feel you need to shallow the club for some reason, swing faster at the transition and it will happen. 

[Righty to Lefty]

Amazing how much backlash I got for saying that the upper body should be passive long enough for the club to get back on plane but those same people are in here agreeing with with what DeChambeau is saying.  Smh....where is that same energy? Elder @virtuoso please chime in and tell DeChambeau is not correct in his assertion immediately. 

[MonteScheinblum]

He had a video last year where he said it’s both.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Amazing how much backlash I got for saying that the upper body should be passive long enough for the club to get back on plane but those same people are in here agreeing with with what DeChambeau is saying.  Smh....where is that same energy? Elder @virtuoso please chime in and tell DeChambeau is not correct in his assertion immediately. 

 

He's making his hands drop down to his right pocket. He's not passive in doing that.

 

And… as always with you… #FeelAintReal. We can measure what good players actually do; what they feel like they do is important, but it's not gospel.

[Hilts1969]

11 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Yes, that is what I was attempting to say which is why I put a ? next to ulnar deviation. Bryson says stop trying to "manually" shallow. I don't know why folks focused on UD in particular. 

Because you put this 

 

Bryson says not to use your hands (ulnar deviation?) to shallow. 
 

Would seem very strange for replies to ignore it.

[Trippels]

In a recent video with that Scratch to scratch guy YouTube golfer, Dana said that you shouldn't bring your arms down manually. He said he sees even pros practicing it, mentioning Fleetwood and demonstrating essentially what Bryson shows here, and says he doesn't know why they do it. Because it doesn't happen in a real swing. 

So a little strange dissonance considering Dana is Bryson's current instructor. 

 

Dana of course is a high ranking instructor with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing.

He says don't bring your arms down.

 

AMG of course are high ranking instructors with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing. 

They say do bring your arms down. 

 

So no one really know what to do, just have to figure out for yourself what works. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

In a recent video with that Scratch to scratch guy YouTube golfer, Dana said that you shouldn't bring your arms down manually. He said he sees even pros practicing it, mentioning Fleetwood and demonstrating essentially what Bryson shows here, and says he doesn't know why they do it. Because it doesn't happen in a real swing. 

So a little strange dissonance considering Dana is Bryson's current instructor. 

 

Dana of course is a high ranking instructor with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing.

He says don't bring your arms down.

 

AMG of course are high ranking instructors with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing. 

They say do bring your arms down. 

 

So no one really know what to do, just have to figure out for yourself what works. 

If you’re stuck and your arms are not moving fast enough because you’re trying to “swing from the  ground up” or “hold the lag” then you absolutely have to do it consciously at first. 
 

It’s part of going through the stages of competence/learning. 
 

If you’ve learnt incorrectly the only way change that is to relearn. 
 

I think Monte posted recently showing where most am’s arms are at P5 compared to pros, and they’re almost always lagging too far behind. I’m not sure how you’d speed them up unconsciously or by doing something else. 

[enfuego]

Tried using this Bryson video tip today and it was just enough to shallow out the club a little and all my clubs were going one club further, +5mph ball speeds. I think from better smash factor with same club head speed but all I had were ball speeds on a trackman range, I'll try to confirm on a GC quad next week. I'm typically a swing your own swing guy, never had a lesson and any change to my natural swing is really tough. For some reason the hands explanation just seemed to work and was repeatable.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

In a recent video with that Scratch to scratch guy YouTube golfer, Dana said that you shouldn't bring your arms down manually. He said he sees even pros practicing it, mentioning Fleetwood and demonstrating essentially what Bryson shows here, and says he doesn't know why they do it. Because it doesn't happen in a real swing. 

So a little strange dissonance considering Dana is Bryson's current instructor. 

 

Dana of course is a high ranking instructor with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing.

He says don't bring your arms down.

 

AMG of course are high ranking instructors with many years of experience working with amateurs and pros and uses tech to measure what goes on in the swing. 

They say do bring your arms down. 

 

So no one really know what to do, just have to figure out for yourself what works. 

 

The arms move downward faster than the combination of the chest turning and gravity would make them. The angles in the trail elbow or the adduction across the chest would decrease (the bend and adduction would increase, resulting in smaller angles) if the arms were passive.

 

It doesn't happen in the swings of good players.

[Righty to Lefty]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

He had a video last year where he said it’s both.

Yeah and then after he got with Berkshire in that time and realized that he was wrong in trying to pull on the club from the top of the backswing and that there is a part of the swing where he has to be "passive" in order for his sequence to be maintained.  

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

He's making his hands drop down to his right pocket. He's not passive in doing that.

 

And… as always with you… #FeelAintReal. We can measure what good players actually do; what they feel like they do is important, but it's not gospel.

No he is not making his hands drop...you gotta be kidding me. Without rotation the club would fall to the trail hip, but that same action with rotation make the fact that the club is in fact still falling to the trail hip more difficult to be seen.  Countering the force that the club is creating because you have begun the down swing portion of the swing motion while the club is still in the backswing motion is very different that actively pulling on the handle, which will reroute it because it will be moving at slow speed at the top of the backswing.  At the top of the backswing the club is above plane, thus how in the world will it ever get back on plane if you actively pull on it from the backswing?  

 

The difference between the two can be seen and are pretty dramitic:  

 

DeChambeau is fast, but inefficient because he is late in delivering his speed while Berkshire is more patient and put on speed much later in the downswing.  I would bet that most people, if just looking at the video of the two swings not knowing who each of them is, would say that DeChambeau is swinging faster than Berkshire.  The later the athlete puts on speed in the downswing, the smoother they will look.  

 

Case in point...as he is in the same speed class as DeChambeau: 

 

Edited May 16 by Righty to Lefty

[TheDeanAbides]

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah and then after he got with Berkshire in that time and realized that he was wrong in trying to pull on the club from the top of the backswing and that there is a part of the swing where he has to be "passive" in order for his sequence to be maintained.  

 

No he is not making his hands drop...you gotta be kidding me. Without rotation the club would fall to the trail hip, but that same action with rotation make the fact that the club is in fact still falling to the trail hip more difficult to be seen.  Countering the force that the club is creating because you have begun the down swing portion of the swing motion while the club is still in the backswing motion is very different that actively pulling on the handle, which will reroute it because it will be moving at slow speed at the top of the backswing.  At the top of the backswing the club is above plane, thus how in the world will it ever get back on plane if you actively pull on it from the backswing?  

 

The difference between the two can be seen and are pretty dramitic:  

 

DeChambeau is fast, but inefficient because he is late in delivering his speed while Berkshire is more patient and put on speed much later in the downswing.  I would bet that most people, if just looking at the video of the two swings not knowing who each of them is, would say that DeChambeau is swinging faster than Berkshire.  The later the athlete puts on speed in the downswing, the smoother they will look.  

 

Case in point...as he is in the same speed class as DeChambeau: 

 

And that’s another thread ruined. 

[GoGoErky]

44 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah and then after he got with Berkshire in that time and realized that he was wrong in trying to pull on the club from the top of the backswing and that there is a part of the swing where he has to be "passive" in order for his sequence to be maintained.  

He more Berkshire are passive in anyway.

 

here is a video I have from my range if Berkshire hitting balls. He’s not being passive or he’s not letting gravity do anything or letting the arms fall