Iron Shaft Comparison

[Zanesmith5]

In late 2018 I was fit for KBS Tour 130x iron shafts. I recently hit AMT Tour White’s in the new Titleist t100 shafts. 
 

im looking to get a slightly higher ball flight in my long irons. Would these be a good option? Other suggestions? Thanks all 

[Howard_Jones]

Tweak lofts for higher ball flight if the shafts feels good as they are.
If your thinking is that more loft at impact from a shaft is any different than changing static loft you are wrong. The reason is very simple, the ball has no clue about where loft came from, so it could not care less. Its the heads position at impact that decides loft, and now its to low, so just bend the clubs to weaker lofts to get higher ball flight.

[Stuart_G]

Listen to Howard.   Chasing launch and spin numbers with shaft changes can frequently turn into an expensive wild goose chase.    How the swing might respond to the change in feel from the change in shaft stiffness makes the effect much more subjective and therefore unpredictable than the shaft marketing folks let on.   It's much more effective to do that with head selection and managing lofts.

[Howard_Jones]

30 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Listen to Howard.   Chasing launch and spin numbers with shaft changes can frequently turn into an expensive wild goose chase.    How the swing might respond to the change in feel from the change in shaft stiffness makes the effect much more subjective and therefore unpredictable than the shaft marketing folks let on.   It's much more effective to do that with head selection and managing lofts.

This one is a classic, and maybe we should put together a "standard answer" with full information about how this actually works?

The shaft is chosen to work for the players swing
Heads and lofts is chosen for ball flight

Many players has the idea that bending lofts will change bounce, and that's correct enough, but since loft and bounce is forever connected, we cant change one without changing the other.

if a shaft could deliver the club head to the ball with 1* extra of loft, the club head will in that position also have 1* more on bounce, and its no way we can overrule that.

The same goes for distance and gaps. We cant use a shaft that adds 1* on loft without interfering with distance on the same time, so we are back to where we started, we cant change one parameter without consequences for the others, so "loft is simply loft" no matter where it came from, and the ball will never know how we did it.

ONLY if shaft weight, profile or feel is not as wanted, we should go for a shaft change.

If weight, feel and dispersion is good from the shafts we play, keep them, and adjust static lofts to get ball flight as wanted.
That's why this bending machines was invented, and club heads was designed to be adjusted on both loft and lie..

The classic example - Tiger Woods.
Tiger has always played Dynamic Gold X100, so we might think , ahh sure he wants a low ball flight like this shafts deliver, but thats WRONG.
Tiger plays DG X100 because weight, feel and dispersion is good for him, and to get the ball flight he wants, he plays his irons with lofts about 2* weak to get it.

If he tried to use a shaft to get the same ball flight, the risk would be large that this shafts would not be good for his swing, so shafts is for the players swing, heads and lofts is for ball flight.

If we follow this simple rules, the hunt for "the right shaft" is way easier than many think it is, since the player very often plays that shaft already. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Zanesmith5]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

This one is a classic, and maybe we should put together a "standard answer" with full information about how this actually works?

The shaft is chosen to work for the players swing
Heads and lofts is chosen for ball flight

Many players has the idea that bending lofts will change bounce, and that's correct enough, but since loft and bounce is forever connected, we cant change one without changing the other.

if a shaft could deliver the club head to the ball with 1* extra of loft, the club head will in that position also have 1* more on bounce, and its no way we can overrule that.

The same goes for distance and gaps. We cant use a shaft that adds 1* on loft without interfering with distance on the same time, so we are back to where we started, we cant change one parameter without consequences for the others, so "loft is simply loft" no matter where it came from, and the ball will never know how we did it.

ONLY if shaft weight, profile or feel is not as wanted, we should go for a shaft change.

If weight, feel and dispersion is good from the shafts we play, keep them, and adjust static lofts to get ball flight as wanted.
That's why this bending machines was invented, and club heads was designed to be adjusted on both loft and lie..

The classic example - Tiger Woods.
Tiger has always played Dynamic Gold X100, so we might think , ahh sure he wants a low ball flight like this shafts deliver, but thats WRONG.
Tiger plays DG X100 because weight, feel and dispersion is good for him, and to get the ball flight he wants, he plays his irons with lofts about 2* weak to get it.

If he tried to use a shaft to get the same ball flight, the risk would be large that this shafts would not be good for his swing, so shafts is for the players swing, heads and lofts is for ball flight.

If we follow this simple rules, the hunt for "the right shaft" is way easier than many think it is, since the player very often plays that shaft already. 

 

Got it and thank you for the in depth explanation, I appreciate this. 
 

i should have lead with this, I no longer have the KBS Tour as I parted ways with that iron set. 

[Howard_Jones]

2 minutes ago, Zanesmith5 said:

 

Got it and thank you for the in depth explanation, I appreciate this. 
 

i should have lead with this, I no longer have the KBS Tour as I parted ways with that iron set. 

As i understood your first post, you now play AMT White where ball flight is the issue, so if thats right, and the shafts feels good, play them, and have the lofts tweaked, thats how it should be done.

If you look at the best players out there, they hardly ever change the shaft model they play, Tiger is one, Stenson has played the BLUE in his 3W for longer than i have played golf, and its for the reasons described above. The shaft is for the swing, the head and loft is for ball flight.

[animalgolfs]

This is another thread deserving of a stickie

 

Good stuff 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

This one is a classic, and maybe we should put together a "standard answer" with full information about how this actually works?

 

You forgot the "again" in that sentence 🙂

 

[Howard_Jones]

7 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You forgot the "again" in that sentence 🙂

 

or maybe the word "until" (wrx makes another update).....;-)

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, animalgolfs said:

This is another thread deserving of a stickie

 

Good stuff 

Thats not needed, just copy the text and re-post it when ever its relevant, and that could be quite often in here. Its always been a hunt for this unicorn shaft, it never ends.

Let me add that i was running my own True Temper Performance Fitting Center, and i had the full line up of aftermarked and Tour Issue models from True Temper, Rifle, Project X and Grafalloy, plus all models from Swing Science and Tom Wishon. My shop was #7 on the globe for sale of Tour Issue products in this brands back in 2011.

Said with other words, i was one of the largest shaft pushers out there, but i NEVER sold shafts without a good reason, and never "on demands only".

As one of very few shops, i even offered "re-fitting" and modifications of ALL clubs the players had, even brand new ones bought from the net, and shaft changes was done in less than 10% of those cases, mostly because the shaft weight or feel was totally off for the player and there was nothing i could to by modifications to improve it.  

i did not allow anyone to buy without a fitting that proved a shaft change was beneficial, so we very often ended with a regular loft and dispersion tweak to make the players set play as he wanted it, and that often included a little head weight tweak up or down. The same for drivers, woods and hybrids. A little shorter, sometimes tip trim, and often a slight weight adjustment with hot melt, and players could also come to me to have their own irons and wedges grinded.

So, when a shaft pusher at my level say, keep playing the shafts you have if weight, feel and dispersion is good, and tweak lofts, you can trust that this advice is solid, and based on true shaft knowledge.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Howard_Jones

[Zanesmith5]

6 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Thats not needed, just copy the text and re-post it when ever its relevant, and that could be quite often in here. Its always been a hunt for this unicorn shaft, it never ends.

Let me add that i was running my own True Temper Performance Fitting Center, and i had the full line up of aftermarked and Tour Issue models from True Temper, Rifle, Project X and Grafalloy, plus all models from Swing Science and Tom Wishon. My shop was #7 on the globe for sale of Tour Issue products in this brands back in 2011.

Said with other words, i was one of the largest shaft pushers out there, but i NEVER sold shafts without a good reason, and never "on demands only".

As one of very few shops, i even offered "re-fitting" and modifications of ALL clubs the players had, even brand new ones bought from the net, and a shaft changes was done in less than 10% of those cases, mostly because the shaft weight or feel was totally off for the player and there was nothing i could to by modifications to improve it.  

i did not allow anyone to buy without a fitting that proved a shaft change was beneficial, so we very often ended with a regular loft and dispersion tweak to make the players set play as he wanted it, and that often included a little head weight tweak up or down. The same for drivers, woods and hybrids. A little shorter, sometimes tip trim, and often a slight weight adjustment with hot melt, and players could also come to me to have their own irons and wedges grinded.

So, when a shaft pusher at my level say, keep playing the shafts you have if weight, feel and dispersion is good, and tweak lofts, you can trust that this advice is solid, and based on true shaft knowledge.

 

Cheers Howard i appreciate you.

[SBH9458]

Great thread!

[Golf Pig]

Great info as usual Howard. It's too bad because locating a qualified fitter nearby can be extremely hard, which means finding the right shafts to match our swings likely involves a ton of trial and error (and luck). Hopefully we stumble upon the right weight, bend profile, etc. and then stick with it like you mentioned.