Can not rotate. At a loss.

[Cunni035]

I get lessons, practice a lot, use launch monitor etc. 

 

I just can’t stop the early extension. No teacher seems to be able to solve it. 
 

help! 

[Valtiel]

A couple questions: What sorts of things have teachers tried to get you to do? What would you say you've tried or attempted to solve the problem? Any feels or things you tend to focus on when practicing?

You have a pretty clear sequencing issue where you're basically doing very little with your hips while being completely arm driven. I'm sure this was pointed out previously unless literally every teacher you've had was incompetent, so I wanted to skip past the "you need to sequence correctly" spiel and instead try to figure out why you're maybe not able to. 

[golfarb1]

Actually it is not that much of mystery

First you need to understand why you EE . Simply put , you EE because the right side of your body is blocking your RIGHT ELBOW in the impact zone. To hit the ball you must EE , stall your pivot and disconnect your arms.

Second , you need to understand how the pelvis “rotates”. Rotation of the pelvis is dependent on the position of your hip sockets at impact . The more that your left hip socket is away from the target line , the more that you can pivot going down

 

To fix your EE , all you need to know is simple  math. The more distance that your right elbow has to.move going down , the less likely that your elbow can move in front of your right hip at impact and the more likely that you will EE

SO your first swing change should involve cutting down the length of your backswing.

First try the easy route 

a. Make sure that your front foot is flared out 1/4 turn towards the target 

b. Make sure that your trail foot is NOT flared away from the target ; make sure that it is perpendicular to the target line 

c. OPEN your stance slightly by pulling back 

your front foot 1 to 2 inches away from the target line . Do this before flaring out your left foot. This will serve a dual purpose . It will reduce the amount that your pelvis can “ rotate going back, thus reducing the length of your backswing . Second it will make it easier to rotate your pelvis going down because you have preset the position of your left hip socket

One note with this open stance . Only your feet will be open . Your hips and shoulder should both be parallel to your target line at setup. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by golfarb1

[Cunni035]

3 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

A couple questions: What sorts of things have teachers tried to get you to do? What would you say you've tried or attempted to solve the problem? Any feels or things you tend to focus on when practicing?

You have a pretty clear sequencing issue where you're basically doing very little with your hips while being completely arm driven. I'm sure this was pointed out previously unless literally every teacher you've had was incompetent, so I wanted to skip past the "you need to sequence correctly" spiel and instead try to figure out why you're maybe not able to. 

Well they have tried the chair drill to keep me back, they have tried for me to pump my arms so I fell arms first. They have tried to get me to swing way left while hitting the ball right of a stick. They have tried to get me to feel my arms drop then turn.  
 

When I practice I start with short chips. Take club back half way stop for second then just use “body” to hit. I tried a drill where you set up to the ball take your front foot put next to back foot. As I back swing I step forward and hit the ball. 
 

I’ve tried feels from feeling hands go first to a bump to getting weight to front heel. I’m just at a complete loss as I got so many different things. 

[Cunni035]

2 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Actually it is not that much of mystery

First you need to understand why you EE . Simply put , you EE because the right side of your body is blocking your RIGHT ELBOW in the impact zone. To hit the ball you must EE , stall your pivot and disconnect your arms.

Second , you need to understand how the pelvis “rotates”. Rotation of the pelvis is dependent on the position of your hip sockets at impact . The more that your left socket is away from the target line , the more that you can pivot going down

 

To fix your EE , all you need to know is simple  math. The more distance that your right elbow has to.move going down , the less likely that your elbow can move in front of your right hip at impact and the more likely that you will EE

SO your first swing change should involve cutting down the length of your backswing.

First try the easy route 

a. Make sure that your front foot is flared out 1/4 turn towards the target 

b. Make sure that your trail foot is NOT flared away from the target ; make sure that it is perpendicular to the target line 

c. OPEN your stance slightly by pulling back 

your front foot 1 to 2 inches away from the target line . Do this before flaring out your left foot. This will serve a dual purpose . It will reduce the amount that your pelvis can “ rotate”, thus reducing the length of your backswing . Second it will make it easier to rotate your pelvis going down.

One note with this open stance . Only your feet will be open . Your hips and shoulder should both be parallel to your target line at setup. 

I’ve thought about the backswing. Not one instructor has ever said it’s too long. I’ve tried to shorten on my own but years and years of a longer swing I got no clue how to do it. I feel it’s not as simple as swing shorter. There has to be a feel. 

[Cunni035]

7 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Actually it is not that much of mystery

First you need to understand why you EE . Simply put , you EE because the right side of your body is blocking your RIGHT ELBOW in the impact zone. To hit the ball you must EE , stall your pivot and disconnect your arms.

Second , you need to understand how the pelvis “rotates”. Rotation of the pelvis is dependent on the position of your hip sockets at impact . The more that your left hip socket is away from the target line , the more that you can pivot going down

 

To fix your EE , all you need to know is simple  math. The more distance that your right elbow has to.move going down , the less likely that your elbow can move in front of your right hip at impact and the more likely that you will EE

SO your first swing change should involve cutting down the length of your backswing.

First try the easy route 

a. Make sure that your front foot is flared out 1/4 turn towards the target 

b. Make sure that your trail foot is NOT flared away from the target ; make sure that it is perpendicular to the target line 

c. OPEN your stance slightly by pulling back 

your front foot 1 to 2 inches away from the target line . Do this before flaring out your left foot. This will serve a dual purpose . It will reduce the amount that your pelvis can “ rotate going back, thus reducing the length of your backswing . Second it will make it easier to rotate your pelvis going down because you have preset the position of your left hip socket

One note with this open stance . Only your feet will be open . Your hips and shoulder should both be parallel to your target line at setup. 

Do you have a video or picture of elbow in front or drill? 

[golfarb1]

2 minutes ago, Cunni035 said:

I’ve thought about the backswing. Not one instructor has ever said it’s too long. I’ve tried to shorten on my own but years and years of a longer swing I got no clue how to do it. I feel it’s not as simple as swing shorter. There has to be a feel. 

Maybe that is why no one has ever fixed you.

The simple changes that I suggested will automatically reduce the length of your backing and improve your right elbow position without any swings thought s on your part 

[Cunni035]

1 minute ago, golfarb1 said:

Maybe that is why no one has ever fixed you.

The simple changes that I suggested will automatically reduce the length of your backing and improve your right elbow position without any swings thought s on your part 

I do flare my front foot. When I get so far back I do feel my arms lift and then my wrist breaks down. 
 

I found and old file on my V1 golf here is a screen shot of when one instructor messed with my backswing. This was years ago. 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Cunni035 said:

Well they have tried the chair drill to keep me back, they have tried for me to pump my arms so I fell arms first. They have tried to get me to swing way left while hitting the ball right of a stick. They have tried to get me to feel my arms drop then turn.  
 

When I practice I start with short chips. Take club back half way stop for second then just use “body” to hit. I tried a drill where you set up to the ball take your front foot put next to back foot. As I back swing I step forward and hit the ball. 
 

I’ve tried feels from feeling hands go first to a bump to getting weight to front heel. I’m just at a complete loss as I got so many different things. 

Interesting, and makes sense why you might still be struggling then. Aside from the using the body to "hit" drill, ALL of those drills are passive when what you're attempting to go is a very deliberate, active movement. Telling someone do all sorts of arm related drills (pumping, swinging left, dropping etc) when they don't understand how to use their hips is liking trying to teach someone to drive stick without telling them anything about when to engage the clutch.

Right now your hips are lagging way behind in the sequence of your swing because you aren't engaging them at the right time, or really engaging them much at all. If you're used to moving the way you are now then what is "correct" will likely feel foreign and very early. Check out the video linked at the bottom with the goal of understanding the idea that the hips lead the downswing, and therefore need to start shifting and engaging well before the downswing starts. Just about every pro has gotten off their trail leg and is close to 50/50 on both feet by the time the backswing finishes and is already driving into their front side at the beginning of the downswing. Right now your legs and hips are passively following your upper body and aren't being actively engaged to create power or resist the centrifugal force of the swing pulling you towards the ball.
 

 

[Cunni035]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Interesting, and makes sense why you might still be struggling then. Aside from the using the body to "hit" drill, ALL of those drills are passive when what you're attempting to go is a very deliberate, active movement. Telling someone do all sorts of arm related drills (pumping, swinging left, dropping etc) when they don't understand how to use their hips is liking trying to teach someone to drive stick without telling them anything about when to engage the clutch.

Right now your hips are lagging way behind in the sequence of your swing because you aren't engaging them at the right time, or really engaging them much at all. If you're used to moving the way you are now then what is "correct" will likely feel foreign and very early. Check out the video linked at the bottom with the goal of understanding the idea that the hips lead the downswing, and therefore need to start shifting and engaging well before the downswing starts. Just about every pro has gotten off their trail leg and is close to 50/50 on both feet by the time the backswing finishes and is already driving into their front side at the beginning of the downswing. Right now your legs and hips are passively following your upper body and aren't being actively engaged to create power or resist the centrifugal force of the swing pulling you towards the ball.
 

 

Thanks. 
 

 

I’ve seen this video before. I just can’t feel it. 
 

So I have to feel my butt is pushing back while going forward as I start? 
 

when I do they I hit it so bad. 

[jamgam]

1 hour ago, Cunni035 said:

when I do they I hit it so bad. 

 

You're going to hit it bad / awful making a change like this.  Just have to be ok with it for a while.  I hit it terrible for a long while trying to make the same change.  Just swing SLOW.  Real slow to get the feel and start putting the club head on the ball.  It will come around.  

 

The feel for me was to get my elbow in front of me.  When i did that and early extended at the same time talk about hosel rocket city.  I have to over exagerate my slow swings.  butt going backwards hard and elbow in front.  I don't care where the ball goes, just make the right swing and it will come around

[TheDeanAbides]

Put the club down for a minute and cross your arms across your chest in your address position. Now feel like your left shoulder goes straight back behind you while you let your hips move freely along with that. 
 

You SHOULD feel like your weight is moving into the right heel, but with the tension going down the inside of the right leg. It should feel completely different to anything you’ve experienced before and feel very secure and solid. 
 

This will give you a better understanding experientally of a better pivot. From there add the arms and do some Justin Rose drills to slow the opening of your shoulders in the downswing. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by TheDeanAbides

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, jamgam said:

 

You're going to hit it bad / awful making a change like this.  Just have to be ok with it for a while.  I hit it terrible for a long while trying to make the same change.  Just swing SLOW.  Real slow to get the feel and start putting the club head on the ball.  It will come around.  

 

The feel for me was to get my elbow in front of me.  When i did that and early extended at the same time talk about hosel rocket city.  I have to over exagerate my slow swings.  butt going backwards hard and elbow in front.  I don't care where the ball goes, just make the right swing and it will come around

 

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Put the club down for a minute and cross your arms across your chest in your address position. Now feel like your left shoulder goes straight back behind you while you let your hips move freely along with that. 
 

You SHOULD feel like your weight is moving into the right heel, but with the tension going down the inside of the right leg. It should feel completely different to anything you’ve experienced before and feel very secure and solid. 
 

This will give you a better understanding experientally of a better pivot. From there add the arms and do some Justin Rose drills to slow the opening of your shoulders in the downswing. 

 

6 hours ago, Cunni035 said:

Thanks. 
 

 

I’ve seen this video before. I just can’t feel it. 
 

So I have to feel my butt is pushing back while going forward as I start? 
 

when I do they I hit it so bad. 

Agreed with these guys above. You will hit bad shots as you work towards correcting the issue as you're simply used to hitting shots without actively engaging half your body. Metaphorically you're going to trip and fall a bunch as you're learning to transition from walking to running. The main thing you have to get your head around is learning how to actually move differently. You say you can't feel it, which is understandable, but your lower body isn't doing anything in transition, so my response to "I can't feel it" would be "of course, because you aren't doing anything", hah. Right now you're shifting into your lead side at the start of your downswing when you should be doing that as your backswing is ending, which is much earlier. This is the order of operations you need to start feeling:

1) As your backswing completes you're getting pressure off your trail leg into a more 50/50 distribution. Right now you're doing this much later at the start of your downswing. 
2) Once your backswing is completed and you're roughly 50/50, the very first move is shifting into your lead leg. With weight on that leg you can now effect movement, that movement being a combo of driving your left knee towards the target and pushing your left hip backwards.
3) As your downswing starts you should be executing those left leg movements aggressively. Right now you aren't starting to do this until well into your downswing which is too late. 

You may need to really exaggerate these moves to approach what you should be doing, and you'll likely hit some bad shots along the way. Don't worry about the "butt back" stuff right now because that is mostly useful for someone that is already rotating but doing so incorrectly, which you aren't doing yet. Getting your head around doing this early enough will be the toughest part as you likely can't feel it because you're trying to do all of way too late. Give that a shot and post videos, even if they are bad shots. 

[Cunni035]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

 

 

Agreed with these guys above. You will hit bad shots as you work towards correcting the issue as you're simply used to hitting shots without actively engaging half your body. Metaphorically you're going to trip and fall a bunch as you're learning to transition from walking to running. The main thing you have to get your head around is learning how to actually move differently. You say you can't feel it, which is understandable, but your lower body isn't doing anything in transition, so my response to "I can't feel it" would be "of course, because you aren't doing anything", hah. Right now you're shifting into your lead side at the start of your downswing when you should be doing that as your backswing is ending, which is much earlier. This is the order of operations you need to start feeling:

1) As your backswing completes you're getting pressure off your trail leg into a more 50/50 distribution. Right now you're doing this much later at the start of your downswing. 
2) Once your backswing is completed and you're roughly 50/50, the very first move is shifting into your lead leg. With weight on that leg you can now effect movement, that movement being a combo of driving your left knee towards the target and pushing your left hip backwards.
3) As your downswing starts you should be executing those left leg movements aggressively. Right now you aren't starting to do this until well into your downswing which is too late. 

You may need to really exaggerate these moves to approach what you should be doing, and you'll likely hit some bad shots along the way. Don't worry about the "butt back" stuff right now because that is mostly useful for someone that is already rotating but doing so incorrectly, which you aren't doing yet. Getting your head around doing this early enough will be the toughest part as you likely can't feel it because you're trying to do all of way too late. Give that a shot and post videos, even if they are bad shots. 

So I need to feel that my weight is going before I get to the top of downswing. Today I worked on more of an earlier wrist set like Monte talks about and shortening my back swing and getting onto my right heal. 
 

one step at a time. Lol. 
 

Thanks for the advice.