Tilt turn, tilt turn instead of shift turn, shift turn

[Chunkitgood]

In my first post on this forum I had some naive things to say about “shift turn, shift turn.”  Now a year later I have arrived at “tilt turn, tilt turn” as a better description of how to swing.

It is apparent most people have what is commonly called a flat shoulder plane.  It is equally apparent that most people strike the ground before they hit the ball (if only a little) and “add loft.”  Could the two be related?  Rather how can they not be?
 

The problem with shift turn shift turn is that you can do it (and most people seem to do it) with a flat shoulder plane and a sway of the upper body, instead of the hips.  Just look at Dr. Kwon’s demo videos.  On the other hand, if you (left) tilt instead of shift, while keeping your head mostly in place, your weight will shift as your hips initially sway right, and you will get a steeper shoulder plane at the same time.  How much tilt?, you ask.  As much as you can without moving your head around, I answer.

 

Then turn your shoulders, and you will find yourself with a much steeper shoulder plane at the top.  You can do this as a drill: lilt then turn as separate motions, then blend then with a little turn during the tilt, but still mostly tilting first.

 

Reverse process forcefully for downswing.

 

Sure I no have credibility or authority, but it works.  The initial tilt allows your left shoulder to swing past and under the chin, while preventing any thrusting of the left shoulder towards the target line, so when you do the turn your right hip moves away from the target line and towards the target.  And you won’t suck the club inside at the start.  On the downswing, the initial right tilt (which is necessarily accompanied by some “hip thrust”) followed by a turn stops you from coming over the top and let’s you hit the ball first.

 

Even if you don’t believe all this (why would you other than the intrinsic logic of the thing?), believe that good golfers typically have a ton of left tilt (I’ve seen the number 36 degrees) at the top and a bigger ton of right tilt and hip movement on the downswing than everybody else so you better figure out some other way to get them if you don’t have them.

[Liveonce]

Ironic how everything comes back to Stack and Tilt/MORAD principles

[iacas]

Immediate reaction: not a fan.

 

I get a good number of students whose heads go down/forward early on in the backswing. You don't tilt much in the golf swing — many people feel very little tilt (and, yes, for sure I have some students that I have to get to tilt more).

 

The problem isn't that "shift, turn, shift, turn" is bad, the problem is that people aren't doing the "turn" part correctly.

[Zitlow]

It's like walking, there's an alternating supporting side and a swinging or kinetic side. 

 

Shift, tilt and turn. Extend the right knee while flexing the left knee and you're on your way. 

 

His forward press kickstarts the motion. 

 

[Zitlow]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

In my first post on this forum I had some naive things to say about “shift turn, shift turn.”  Now a year later I have arrived at “tilt turn, tilt turn” as a better description of how to swing.

It is apparent most people have what is commonly called a flat shoulder plane.  It is equally apparent that most people strike the ground before they hit the ball (if only a little) and “add loft.”  Could the two be related?  Rather how can they not be?
 

The problem with shift turn shift turn is that you can do it (and most people seem to do it) with a flat shoulder plane and a sway of the upper body, instead of the hips.  Just look at Dr. Kwon’s demo videos.  On the other hand, if you (left) tilt instead of shift, while keeping your head mostly in place, your weight will shift as your hips initially sway right, and you will get a steeper shoulder plane at the same time.  How much tilt?, you ask.  As much as you can without moving your head around, I answer.

 

Then turn your shoulders, and you will find yourself with a much steeper shoulder plane at the top.  You can do this as a drill: lilt then turn as separate motions, then blend then with a little turn during the tilt, but still mostly tilting first.

 

Reverse process forcefully for downswing.

 

Sure I no have credibility or authority, but it works.  The initial tilt allows your left shoulder to swing past and under the chin, while preventing any thrusting of the left shoulder towards the target line, so when you do the turn your right hip moves away from the target line and towards the target.  And you won’t suck the club inside at the start.  On the downswing, the initial right tilt (which is necessarily accompanied by some “hip thrust”) followed by a turn stops you from coming over the top and let’s you hit the ball first.

 

Even if you don’t believe all this (why would you other than the intrinsic logic of the thing?), believe that good golfers typically have a ton of left tilt (I’ve seen the number 36 degrees) at the top and a bigger ton of right tilt and hip movement on the downswing than everybody else so you better figure out some other way to get them if you don’t have them.

That sounds plausible. Some people overdo it and get out of balance. Dr. Kwon has a rope drill for the pivot, here is one with Mike Dunaway. He calls it the A-Frame drill which is the same drill.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hilts1969]

19 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

In my first post on this forum I had some naive things to say about “shift turn, shift turn.”  Now a year later I have arrived at “tilt turn, tilt turn” as a better description of how to swing.

It is apparent most people have what is commonly called a flat shoulder plane.  It is equally apparent that most people strike the ground before they hit the ball (if only a little) and “add loft.”  Could the two be related?  Rather how can they not be?
 

The problem with shift turn shift turn is that you can do it (and most people seem to do it) with a flat shoulder plane and a sway of the upper body, instead of the hips.  Just look at Dr. Kwon’s demo videos.  On the other hand, if you (left) tilt instead of shift, while keeping your head mostly in place, your weight will shift as your hips initially sway right, and you will get a steeper shoulder plane at the same time.  How much tilt?, you ask.  As much as you can without moving your head around, I answer.

 

Then turn your shoulders, and you will find yourself with a much steeper shoulder plane at the top.  You can do this as a drill: lilt then turn as separate motions, then blend then with a little turn during the tilt, but still mostly tilting first.

 

Reverse process forcefully for downswing.

 

Sure I no have credibility or authority, but it works.  The initial tilt allows your left shoulder to swing past and under the chin, while preventing any thrusting of the left shoulder towards the target line, so when you do the turn your right hip moves away from the target line and towards the target.  And you won’t suck the club inside at the start.  On the downswing, the initial right tilt (which is necessarily accompanied by some “hip thrust”) followed by a turn stops you from coming over the top and let’s you hit the ball first.

 

Even if you don’t believe all this (why would you other than the intrinsic logic of the thing?), believe that good golfers typically have a ton of left tilt (I’ve seen the number 36 degrees) at the top and a bigger ton of right tilt and hip movement on the downswing than everybody else so you better figure out some other way to get them if you don’t have them.

 

Basically stack and tilt argue about an initial shift. The Kwon thing will lead to a generation of flat shoulder swayers

[me05501]

I'm no or swing expert but the idea of side bending on purpose seems like a slippery slope to me.

 

If you're in a good posture and make a good turn you are going to get side bend. You shouldn't fight it of course but it doesn't seem like something the average person should be trying to do intentionally. 

[slytown]

Again, it depends.

 

If a player only moves laterally and has no natural tilt, then they need to learn how the axis of the golf swing, compared to say a baseball swing, is tilted more toward the ground.

If a player does a reverse pivot or has back issues from introducing too much side bend through the ball, then they need to learn a more linear and lateral approach.

 

I think in general tilt and turn is not helpful because it usually gets the club too far under plane and stuck. If you focus so much on taking the arms out of the swing and lateral movement out of the swing, the more the club will get stuck. IMO, that's why Matt Wolf does that big redirect. If he didn't, the club would get incredibly stuck.

 

All of the greats of the early ear especially (Jack, Trevino, Casper) did lateral shift, especially with irons. If you did it too much, you would slide and have no rotation, but at least you would be creating that necessary compression and space for the downswing to come down on plane.

 

 

[Chazb]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:15 PM, Hilts1969 said:

 

Basically stack and tilt argue about an initial shift. The Kwon thing will lead to a generation of flat shoulder swayers

Agreed and a fast back swing.

[Nard_S]

For me, seems how well hips move is large determinant. If they move further away from target line, deeper, more perpendicular to it, those upper tilts become more natural. If my mind's eye sees ''rotation & shift'' or "turn & tilt", it seems easier to lose tilt and lose plane. The more I embrace the depth aspect of swing, and working from that, the better my swing gets. Get hips deeper, move the hands faster while they remain deeper and away too, stay more patient about tilt too. Trust the new geometry of it because it's weird to a body that pretty much did the opposite for decades. It has not fully stuck, I go in & out and between new & old but it's such a better way to swing, I'm not letting go anytime soon.

[golferdude54]

Your shoulders will tilt naturally as long as your head stays on a "wall" during your backswing. Here's Hogan from 1953, he drags his head down the "wall" in his backswing. At the same time his head is moving laterally away from the target but that is allowed as well as zero lateral movement as long as it stays on the "wall". 

 

[Krt22]

Can you demonstrate with a video? At least chipa has videos of his madness 

[Sean124]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Can you demonstrate with a video? At least chipa has videos of his madness