Must I take "complete" relief from a hazard?

[deaddog]

This seems like it should be easy to find the Rule but I can't.  When taking a drop from a hazard (incurring a penalty), must I take "complete" relief, including stance, as required when I get free relief from a manmade obstruction (cart path)?  Here is the scenario - my shot goes into a red line water hazard; I drop appropriately with the ball outside the hazard; but my stance has one foot on the red line (so in the hazard)?  Is that permitted or is it a violation, and if a violation, can you cite the rule?

 

Thanks

[Mr. Bean]

39 minutes ago, deaddog said:

This seems like it should be easy to find the Rule but I can't.  When taking a drop from a hazard (incurring a penalty), must I take "complete" relief, including stance, as required when I get free relief from a manmade obstruction (cart path)?  Here is the scenario - my shot goes into a red line water hazard; I drop appropriately with the ball outside the hazard; but my stance has one foot on the red line (so in the hazard)?  Is that permitted or is it a violation, and if a violation, can you cite the rule?

 

Thanks

 

No, you do not necessarily get complete relief from a Penalty Area. The position of your ball is what matters, that is, your ball has to be outside of the PA after the drop.

 

Rule 17 is what you need to study.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Colin L]

Permitted. Where your ball comes to rest after being dropped is all that matters.  

It must be in the relief area  and that must be in a part of the course other than the penalty area your ball was.                                                                                                                                                    

Edited June 30, 2023 by Colin L

[deaddog]

Thanks.  Is the analysis that R 17 does not use term "complete relief" and instead states "relief"  --vs R 16 (Abnormal Obstruction) which uses "complete relief?"  And, if that is true, is there an actual definition of "complete relief" or is it just implied that it means that you are no longer obstructed in stance and swing?  Any decisions/opinions addressing the issue?

 

Further context - played with a guy the other day who was not very friendly and super uptight.  Friendly game, no money or tournament on the line, not even a game, just a guy added to our foursome.  He made a very big deal of my foot on the red line.  I didn't engage with him but - since I like to know my rules - I want to pin this down for the future.  For the record, I had no problem with him raising the issue, but given his attitude, chose not to discuss it with him. 

[davep043]

29 minutes ago, deaddog said:

And, if that is true, is there an actual definition of "complete relief" or is it just implied that it means that you are no longer obstructed in stance and swing?

Look in the Definitions for Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  Note that that specific phrase is only used under Rules that allow Free Relief, Rule 16.1 and 16.2, and for No Play Zone relief when playing a ball in a Penalty Area. For Penalty Relief, its only the location of the ball that matters, not relief for stance and swing.  This becomes evident when reviewing the potential Reference Point and Relief Area for the different situations.

One approach I've taken when someone tells me about a Rule is to ask them to show me the specific wording.  I'll often phrase it as a request to be educated, so that I can read and understand the Rule better when I have more time.  Get the Rules app for your phone, from the R&A or USGA, and let him try to find it there.  Its not always effective, but it works more often than not.

Edited June 30, 2023 by davep043

[Schulzmc]

There is this in the Q&As on the USGA site. Note the specific situations when complete relief is called for (a drop from a penalty area is NOT one of them). It also says the relief must be "in a position where the condition you are taking relief from doesn’t interfere with the stroke you would have made from the original spot if the condition was not there." So if taking relief from a cart path your relief could not be taken in such a way as your feet were still on the path. I'm guessing that's what the gentleman who brought this up was thinking about. But he was incorrectly applying that to your penalty area drop.

 

Nearest Point of Complete Relief

Q.How do I find the nearest point of complete relief and when is it used?

A.The nearest point of complete relief is used for taking free relief from an abnormal course condition, a dangerous animal condition, a wrong green or a no play zone. It is the estimated point where the ball would lie that is nearest to the ball’s original spot, not closer to the hole than that spot, in the required area of the course, and in a position where the condition you are taking relief from doesn’t interfere with the stroke you would have made from the original spot if the condition was not there (see Definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief).

Edited June 30, 2023 by Schulzmc

[TheBiles]

What random single calls out penalties on the group he joined and is not competing against?  Super weird. Even worse when he doesn't know the rules himself.

[Colin L]

There is a common format to relief rules:  each kind of relief has a defined reference point which is the spot  from which is  measured the area within which you drop your ball and in which it must come to rest.  

 

in relief from an abnormal course condition  such as GUR or an immovable obstruction the reference point is the nearest spot not nearer the hole at which you get complete relief from the condition. The relief area is then one club length from the reference point.  The requirement to take complete  relief is in the definition of the reference point which is known as the nearest point of complete relief.

 

In relief from a penalty area, the reference point is where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area and the relief area is two club lengths.  The relief area can be in any part of the course other than the same penalty area.  since the relief area starts at the edge of the penalty area, it is clearly possible and legitimate for your ball to be on or close to the reference point and your foot to be in the penalty area.

[deaddog]

You guys have been incredibly helpful.  Much appreciated.  And, yes, the rando guy spouting incorrect rules was kind of weird but I try not to engage on those issues in real time as it screws up my game.  

[LeoLeo99]

4 hours ago, deaddog said:

Thanks.  Is the analysis that R 17 does not use term "complete relief" and instead states "relief"  --vs R 16 (Abnormal Obstruction) which uses "complete relief?"  And, if that is true, is there an actual definition of "complete relief" or is it just implied that it means that you are no longer obstructed in stance and swing?  Any decisions/opinions addressing the issue?

 

Further context - played with a guy the other day who was not very friendly and super uptight.  Friendly game, no money or tournament on the line, not even a game, just a guy added to our foursome.  He made a very big deal of my foot on the red line.  I didn't engage with him but - since I like to know my rules - I want to pin this down for the future.  For the record, I had no problem with him raising the issue, but given his attitude, chose not to discuss it with him. 

Guys like that really bring out my mischievous side.  

[teejaywhy]

On 6/30/2023 at 9:46 AM, TheBiles said:

... Even worse when he doesn't know the rules himself.

 

Always the case though, isn't it?