Hogan thoughts and questions - pivot, no-flip follow through, wrist conditions

[teddyironboy]

I tried to DM @SwagGolf6112 but not sure he's active anymore. Perhaps @moehogan or @virtuoso know how to contact?

 

Anyways it could make some decent discussion.

 

 

Regarding the pivot, swag said the force used in the pivot drives the transition. That there's not stop and go at the top. Is it partly because his hips aren't just simply winding and unwinding in place? The hips are moving backwards a little bit, so it seems like there could be an uninterrupted motion there. They move backwards but he doesn't fall on his a** because there's hip flexion. It's like a loop, and there's enough momentum to open the hips in transition. Like push back into the right hip, and the momentum rolls the hips open. Another force does have to be applied in transition to roll open, but could it still be considered as continuous of a motion as it gets? Here's a picture from the top:

Hard to describe the direction of the force, but I'm picturing a car drifting to a sideways stop.

 

 

Side note, I've been learning from Gankas's site (although I try to be more like a baseball swing than their stock). I could never really get his pivot down until I started doing the roll pivot. Then my lead leg started opening automatically instead of forcing it open with my knees. I'm starting to be a big believer in just putting focus on my big muscles like my glutes instead of my knees. Or seeing my torso and arms as one when trying to shallow instead of my elbows and wrists. For the roll pivot, putting a chair against my butt and pushing it backwards has been a great drill for this. When Gankas says "leave your hands in place and let your pivot shallow the club" I didn't get it until using the chair drill.

 

 

Back to Hogan, swag seems to really suggest that whatever he is doing it should lead to no flip of the club well past impact into the follow through. I can kind of do that by driving my right elbow external through the ball, but it is a bit manufactured, and definitely not a feeling that starts from the the beginning of the swing. (my swing when I try this move: dtl https://streamable.com/uypse0, fo https://streamable.com/b1e19y, right click to slow down. not a Hogan swing attempt, it's more my own swing + the move. although the roll pivot is a mainstay in my swing now) Could this be considered firing of the hands/arms that causes this no-flip finish, because swag did say that Hogan was firing at the ball with his right hand. It also kind of feels like I am uppercutting through the ball. When swag said fire one hand, in transition, and then fire another - I feel my pivot pulling my left arm down (feel also extends to the back of my left hand) and shallowing out the club, and then uppercutting the ball with my right hand. Could this be what he was talking about? The face has not flipped over at all. Whenever I do this move, it really feels like the club is moving on it's own and I'm guiding it. It feels "correct" but I've talked to a top teacher and a pro about this very subject and they seem to not care about what happens after impact too much. Also results haven't been great with it but it's a different feeling and I haven't worked much at it. Sometimes this release happens accidentally too.

(Yes I know my hair is f-d up)

 

 

Also I wonder how he goes from cupped wrist to a no-flip release. Is the club square to his back at P6? If it's open at P6, would think the face would have to close fast into impact to square up, and then slow down somehow and stay on plane for the release. Hard to see from his videos. Although supinating/rolling the wrists over while rotating isn't flipping the club. Swag had a post about Rahm and DJ and they bow their wrists a ton, so I guess the secret doesn't have to do much with grip?

Edited July 7, 2023 by teddyironboy

[virtuoso]

No one can communicate with Swag when he is up on the mountain, but don’t worry, he will come back down to do a Swag-drop again at some point.

[moehogan]

My only contact with Swag is reading his posts here and occasionally posting a comment. I think virtuoso nailed it! 😎

[powerfade66]

On 7/9/2023 at 8:14 AM, moehogan said:

My only contact with Swag is reading his posts here and occasionally posting a comment. I think virtuoso nailed it! 😎

Still holding to your winding theory?

[powerfade66]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:41 PM, teddyironboy said:

I tried to DM @SwagGolf6112 but not sure he's active anymore. Perhaps @moehogan or @virtuoso know how to contact?

 

Anyways it could make some decent discussion.

 

 

Regarding the pivot, swag said the force used in the pivot drives the transition. That there's not stop and go at the top. Is it partly because his hips aren't just simply winding and unwinding in place? The hips are moving backwards a little bit, so it seems like there could be an uninterrupted motion there. They move backwards but he doesn't fall on his a** because there's hip flexion. It's like a loop, and there's enough momentum to open the hips in transition. Like push back into the right hip, and the momentum rolls the hips open. Another force does have to be applied in transition to roll open, but could it still be considered as continuous of a motion as it gets? Here's a picture from the top:

Hard to describe the direction of the force, but I'm picturing a car drifting to a sideways stop.

 

 

Side note, I've been learning from Gankas's site (although I try to be more like a baseball swing than their stock). I could never really get his pivot down until I started doing the roll pivot. Then my lead leg started opening automatically instead of forcing it open with my knees. I'm starting to be a big believer in just putting focus on my big muscles like my glutes instead of my knees. Or seeing my torso and arms as one when trying to shallow instead of my elbows and wrists. For the roll pivot, putting a chair against my butt and pushing it backwards has been a great drill for this. When Gankas says "leave your hands in place and let your pivot shallow the club" I didn't get it until using the chair drill.

 

 

Back to Hogan, swag seems to really suggest that whatever he is doing it should lead to no flip of the club well past impact into the follow through. I can kind of do that by driving my right elbow external through the ball, but it is a bit manufactured, and definitely not a feeling that starts from the the beginning of the swing. (my swing when I try this move: dtl https://streamable.com/uypse0, fo https://streamable.com/b1e19y, right click to slow down. not a Hogan swing attempt, it's more my own swing + the move. although the roll pivot is a mainstay in my swing now) Could this be considered firing of the hands/arms that causes this no-flip finish, because swag did say that Hogan was firing at the ball with his right hand. It also kind of feels like I am uppercutting through the ball. When swag said fire one hand, in transition, and then fire another - I feel my pivot pulling my left arm down (feel also extends to the back of my left hand) and shallowing out the club, and then uppercutting the ball with my right hand. Could this be what he was talking about? The face has not flipped over at all. Whenever I do this move, it really feels like the club is moving on it's own and I'm guiding it. It feels "correct" but I've talked to a top teacher and a pro about this very subject and they seem to not care about what happens after impact too much. Also results haven't been great with it but it's a different feeling and I haven't worked much at it. Sometimes this release happens accidentally too.

(Yes I know my hair is f-d up)

 

 

Also I wonder how he goes from cupped wrist to a no-flip release. Is the club square to his back at P6? If it's open at P6, would think the face would have to close fast into impact to square up, and then slow down somehow and stay on plane for the release. Hard to see from his videos. Although supinating/rolling the wrists over while rotating isn't flipping the club. Swag had a post about Rahm and DJ and they bow their wrists a ton, so I guess the secret doesn't have to do much with grip?

Another aspect of the continuous transition is that Hogan and players of his era had more of a one piece early swing then with the later right arm folding and wrist cocking this added momentum to the top of the swing such that the change of direction is unlikely to be a staccato kind of back-pause-down. 

[moehogan]

4 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

Still holding to your winding theory?

Yep.

 

[teddyironboy]

On the pivot: I've figured for my own swing that I shallow it way better when I start my lower body before I complete my backswing. Some days I would do it by accident when trying to increase tempo, but finally figured exactly why my swing would look better on those days. I'd need to not just make a continuous motion with the pivot in transition but really load my lower body to get ready to spring around. And not only that, but try to get my arms going even further back through transition (a little...too much can hurt the back). Really helps get my chest more open relative to arms on the downswing. Getting the shaft perpendicular to the spine at P5, and a very bent right arm and open chest at impact. Quite often have the magical no-flip Hogan release.

 

Not specifically a Hogan thing, but a good every swing thing I think. I mean this is a very common golf tip, but maybe not implemented as much as it should be. Really can't get chest open at impact without doing this.