swings fit the clubs !

[Louis_Posture]

The common belief is that clubs should be fit to a player's swing. However I think that most often a player develops a swing to match their club (s).

For example lots of guys with a bag of heavy weight X flex shafts are swinging out of their shoes because they've subconsciously learned that their club specs require that type of swing to produce a respectable shot.  In contrast, Rose Zhang is out there swinging with a beautiful rhythm and tempo 98 gram R flex shafts shafts.

My point here is to consider being fit for clubs that match how you would LIKE to swing. In other words if you would like to swing smoother and with less effort then maybe consider a lighter shaft or maybe a softer flex, and have faith that your swing will adapt to those specs.

[phizzy30]

Rose has the luxury of a tour level fitting whenever she wants.  She basically has Callaway at her beck and call.  With that being said, I'm a firm believer of letting the clubs do the work for you and not forcing yourself to adapt to the clubs.  So in a way, I do agree with you.  I have an aggressive and quick tempo so heavy TX shafts are usually what fit the bill.  I mostly self fit these days but have done tons of fittings in the past. 

[bladehunter]

It’s all about context.  You can’t put ladies clubs in the hands of a 6-3 204 lb man and expect his “ smooth “ to match her “ smooth “.  

[Louis_Posture]

48 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Rose has the luxury of a tour level fitting whenever she wants.  She basically has Callaway at her beck and call.  With that being said, I'm a firm believer of letting the clubs do the work for you and not forcing yourself to adapt to the clubs.  So in a way, I do agree with you.  I have an aggressive and quick tempo so heavy TX shafts are usually what fit the bill.  I mostly self fit these days but have done tons of fittings in the past. 

 

Fair enough.

My guess is that from the time she was a youngster instructor (s) have guided Rose Zhang to the equipment specs which promote the swing rhythm/tempo that the instructor (s) wanted.

[Louis_Posture]

33 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

It’s all about context.  You can’t put ladies clubs in the hands of a 6-3 204 lb man and expect his “ smooth “ to match her “ smooth “.  

 

I agree about context. I guess Mark O'Meara would be a decent comparable for Rose Zhang's swing rhythm-tempo. He is about 6" taller and 70 pounds heavier than her, and for him 130 gram X flex shafts got the job done.

Also related to context, petite women must use good swing tempo-rhythm because otherwise the  ball won't go anywhere. Some big strong guys can fake it by muscling the ball.

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

I agree about context. I guess Mark O'Meara would be a decent comparable for Rose Zhang's swing rhythm-tempo. He is about 6" taller and 70 pounds heavier than her, and for him 130 gram X flex shafts got the job done.

Also related to context, petite women must use good swing tempo-rhythm because otherwise the  ball won't go anywhere. Some big strong guys can fake it by muscling the ball.

I’d argue that guys who you think are muscling it , are more in tempo and rythm than not.  Rory is a great example of this. He’s in perfect balance.  There’s a huge huge huge difference in strength from Rose to any pga tour male.  I mean it’s 4-1 at least.  

[tthomasgolfer605]

Another thing is length and lie angle. If the toe is way up, you have no choice but to stand up and flip in an attempt to hit a decent shot. Get the lies where they're flush to the ground or just a hair toe up. Jack Nicklaus talked about having no built in corrections in his clubs. 

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’d argue that guys who you think are muscling it , are more in tempo and rythm than not.  Rory is a great example of this. He’s in perfect balance.  There’s a huge huge huge difference in strength from Rose to any pga tour male.  I mean it’s 4-1 at least.  

By "muscling it" I am referring to some amateurs with faulty mechanics who compensate by using their physical strength.

Petite LPGA players do not have the strength to do that, so that Tour shows lots of good rhythm, easy tempo swings.

Equipment changes have somewhat diminished the easy tempo swings which decades ago was common on the PGA Tour, as the heads-shafts-balls today allow players to now get away with going at the ball harder.

Rory's mechanics are excellent, and he does not muscle the ball, but he does go at it a little harder than maybe is necessary. On the recent Memorial Tournament broadcast, when asked about Rory, Nicklaus said he would be better off not going at it so hard, especially with the shorter length clubs.

[Louis_Posture]

50 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Another thing is length and lie angle. If the toe is way up, you have no choice but to stand up and flip in an attempt to hit a decent shot. Get the lies where they're flush to the ground or just a hair toe up. Jack Nicklaus talked about having no built in corrections in his clubs. 

 

Good point about length and lie angle. I like Karsten Solheim's original concept, which was static fitting. These days professional fitters dismiss static fitting as not worth more than at best a "starting point" The current standard of dynamic fitting which uses ball flight and other factors of shot flight, I believe often results in club specs which compensate for faulty swing technique. In contrast, static fitting uses only physical body measurements which results in club specs set for that player to make fundamentally sound swings.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

By "muscling it" I am referring to some amateurs with faulty mechanics who compensate by using their physical strength.

Petite LPGA players do not have the strength to do that, so that Tour shows lots of good rhythm, easy tempo swings.

Equipment changes have somewhat diminished the easy tempo swings which decades ago was common on the PGA Tour, as the heads-shafts-balls today allow players to now get away with going at the ball harder.

Rory's mechanics are excellent, and he does not muscle the ball, but he does go at it a little harder than maybe is necessary. On the recent Memorial Tournament broadcast, when asked about Rory, Nicklaus said he would be better off not going at it so hard, especially with the shorter length clubs.

What you’re leaving out is that they too are swinging full bore a lot. Their full bore is just that slow.  We men think they’re these controlled smooth calculated players. I don’t really believe that. I think they’d hit it harder if they could. Just like the guys. 
 

rorys issue isn’t muscling it. Jack said something that wasn’t a complete thought.  Rory doesn’t flight his short irons. He hits them straight up and hopes . Rory needs to pay tiger to impart the wisdom.  Beg him.  And hope he can understand.  

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

Good point about length and lie angle. I like Karsten Solheim's original concept, which was static fitting. These days professional fitters dismiss static fitting as not worth more than at best a "starting point" The current standard of dynamic fitting which uses ball flight and other factors of shot flight, I believe often results in club specs which compensate for faulty swing technique. In contrast, static fitting uses only physical body measurements which results in club specs set for that player to make fundamentally sound swings.

I have to bend standard lies to whatever it takes to get them soled correctly. Usually 4 degrees flatter depending on the manufacturer and length of the club. I just got a set of Mizuno jpx 921 tour ordered flat and they're still too upright. Time to get the bending bar out.

[Louis_Posture]

7 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I have to bend standard lies to whatever it takes to get them soled correctly. Usually 4 degrees flatter depending on the manufacturer and length of the club. I just got a set of Mizuno jpx 921 tour ordered flat and they're still too upright. Time to get the bending bar out.

 

Mark Calcavecchia had Ping set up his iron sets 5* flat. His strategy was to never miss shots left and he knew that very flat lie angles would help the cause.

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

Mark Calcavecchia had Ping set up his iron sets 5* flat. His strategy was to never miss shots left and he knew that very flat lie angles would help the cause.

Makes sense. I always hear people say if they choke way down on it they hit it better. It's not more control, it's a more playable lie angle. 

[Louis_Posture]

23 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I have to bend standard lies to whatever it takes to get them soled correctly. Usually 4 degrees flatter depending on the manufacturer and length of the club. I just got a set of Mizuno jpx 921 tour ordered flat and they're still too upright. Time to get the bending bar out.

 

What do you consider to be "soled correctly"? 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Just now, Louis_Posture said:

 

What do you consider to be "soled correctly"? 

Toe and Heel flush to the ground. 

[Louis_Posture]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Toe and Heel flush to the ground. 

 

So you don't buy the "toe droop" story  ?

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

So you don't buy the "toe droop" story  ?

Not with irons. Have no choice with drivers because they sit about 15 degrees upright. 

[Louis_Posture]

5 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Not with irons. Have no choice with drivers because they sit about 15 degrees upright. 

Your perspective is interesting . I remember 20 years ago when club fittings were first gaining popularity. The fitters used a lie board and nearly every customer made impact towards the toe so fitters would recommend 2*, 3*, 4* etc... upright. Whatever it took to get the customer's impact marks centered. After the clubs were built the toes of the irons would stick way up off the ground but the fitters would say "don't worry about it, during a swing toe droop happens and that will make the sole flush to the ground at impact".

I don't believe in fitting and have never done it, but to me the toe droop story did sound a bit sketchy.

[tthomasgolfer605]

26 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Your perspective is interesting . I remember 20 years ago when club fittings were first gaining popularity. The fitters used a lie board and nearly every customer made impact towards the toe so fitters would recommend 2*, 3*, 4* etc... upright. Whatever it took to get the customer's impact marks centered. After the clubs were built the toes of the irons would stick way up off the ground but the fitters would say "don't worry about it, during a swing toe droop happens and that will make the sole flush to the ground at impact".

I don't believe in fitting and have never done it, but to me the toe droop story did sound a bit sketchy.

That's because most people are steep causing a toe down release pattern. That much upright is a band-aid for steep swings. If you have the irons soled properly as I said and you come in with the toe deep, you better learn the proper swing arc, not just bend the clubs up.

Edited July 10, 2023 by tthomasgolfer605

[AntLockyer]

I think any able bodied person under the age of 50 who can practice 5 times a week should play blades with x100

 

Pretty sure with a good grip they'd all get good.

[iacas]

Ummm, not only does almost everyone return the club with the handle higher at impact than at setup, but shaft droop is very real.

 

But please tell us more about how the earth is flat.

[phizzy30]

3 hours ago, AntLockyer said:

I think any able bodied person under the age of 50 who can practice 5 times a week should play blades with x100

 

Pretty sure with a good grip they'd all get good.

I'm hoping this is sarcasm.................

[cac022]

Does having a really flat club force you to not early extend etc? I've just followed matched_up_golf on IG and he is building a 7 iron with low bounce, swing weight D7 and using X100 as a training aid club to help produce a better swing. 

 

Just wondering if many have tried this out?