Losing distance, shaft change required?

[Kal L]

Hey all, I need some help trying to figure out why I'm losing distance with my irons, especially with the 7 and 8 iron (I don't usually use anything below a 7). I have several sets of irons and the same thing seems to be happening with all of them. My mp68's have the stock ns pro 950's in stiff in them and my p7mc's have OTI 100's in stiff with them soft stepped once. They both feel nice when I hit with them but distance is lacking.

An example would be my 7-9 iron have roughly the same distance with the same swing speed and tempo, the only way I can get more distance out of let's say the 7 or 8 irons would be to hit harder, and then they still don't get the distance I'm supposed to get. Another example is I was 150 yards out today and I used my 7 iron. I had a beautiful hit, felt nice off the face, good solid contact, smooth, and I was 20-25 yards short. I've read somewhere that this might be due to the shafts not being stiff enough. The same article said that if you fade or slice (which I do on occasion) it is also because the shafts aren't stiff enough but I have no idea. Any ideas or feedback is welcome. This is driving me nuts, I love the feel of these irons but the lack of distance is depressing...

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, Kal L said:

Hey all, I need some help trying to figure out why I'm losing distance with my irons, especially with the 7 and 8 iron (I don't usually use anything below a 7). An example would be my 7-9 iron have roughly the same distance with the same swing speed and tempo, the only way I can get more distance out of let's say the 7 or 8 irons would be to hit harder, and then they still don't get the distance I'm supposed to get. Another example is I was 150 yards out today and I used my 7 iron. I had a beautiful hit, felt nice off the face, good solid contact, smooth, and I was 20-25 yards short.

 

Distance predominantly comes from three things:

1) swing speed

2) dynamic loft delivered (launch angle + spin)

3) quality and location of the face impact

 

If you want to figure out where the problem is - we'd really need to look at more detailed launch numbers from those irons.   And you can always use foot powder spray or impact tape to check your face impact location and consistency.

 

Also - can you think of anything that's changed between the time when you were getting the expected distance and now?   How long has this been going on?  Was it sudden - or has it been gradual?

 

11 hours ago, Kal L said:

I've read somewhere that this might be due to the shafts not being stiff enough. The same article said that if you fade or slice (which I do on occasion) it is also because the shafts aren't stiff enough but I have no idea. Any ideas or feedback is welcome. This is driving me nuts, I love the feel of these irons but the lack of distance is depressing...

 

I wouldn't pay to much attention to those articles.  It's rarely (ok, never) that simple.

 

For many people, shaft stiffness (loading feel) will have little to no effect on any aspect of the swing and ball flight results.  But for others it can have a wide range of effects.  Most commonly is on the release timing and face control (accuracy and shot shape control).  But it's not fixed by any means.  For one person, too soft could mean a hook - for another it can mean a slice.   There is no telling what exactly will happen until you get out and try different options and compare the results side-by-side.   And for some, too stiff can be just as problematic as too soft (and just as inconsistent in how it might be problematic.

 

Most of the problems comes from the feel of the shaft loading and unloading not meeting the expectations or preferences of the player.  Which when simplified means that if it feels too soft or it feels too stiff, it probably is.   But the corollary of that is If it feels just right - it also probably is.    But as I said before, that is a simplification - so never hurts to experiment and test different options.

 

Shaft weight tends to be more influential in the results - but you're already at a lower/mid weight shafts.   You could try going even lighter. That might work for some to increase swing speed but there is no guarantee that you'll get more club head speed by going lighter.  And there can potentially be adverse effects in terms of consistency and dispersion if you go too light.

 

Both shaft weight and swing weight can also sometimes have some effects on the release timing - and therefore the dynamic loft delivered.   So never hurts to play around with lead tape on the head.

[seis]

I am 69 years old with two replacement hips. This year I started swinging graphite senior flex irons. I have recovered some distance with a bit less accuracy. That is the trade off. Father Time is undefeated and you have to give in eventually to keep enjoying the game.

Edited July 10, 2023 by seis

[Kal L]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Distance predominantly comes from three things:

1) swing speed

2) dynamic loft delivered (launch angle + spin)

3) quality and location of the face impact

 

If you want to figure out where the problem is - we'd really need to look at more detailed launch numbers from those irons.   And you can always use foot powder spray or impact tape to check your face impact location and consistency.

 

Also - can you think of anything that's changed between the time when you were getting the expected distance and now?   How long has this been going on?  Was it sudden - or has it been gradual?

 

 

I wouldn't pay to much attention to those articles.  It's rarely (ok, never) that simple.

 

For many people, shaft stiffness (loading feel) will have little to no effect on any aspect of the swing and ball flight results.  But for others it can have a wide range of effects.  Most commonly is on the release timing and face control (accuracy and shot shape control).  But it's not fixed by any means.  For one person, too soft could mean a hook - for another it can mean a slice.   There is no telling what exactly will happen until you get out and try different options and compare the results side-by-side.   And for some, too stiff can be just as problematic as too soft (and just as inconsistent in how it might be problematic.

 

Most of the problems comes from the feel of the shaft loading and unloading not meeting the expectations or preferences of the player.  Which when simplified means that if it feels too soft or it feels too stiff, it probably is.   But the corollary of that is If it feels just right - it also probably is.    But as I said before, that is a simplification - so never hurts to experiment and test different options.

 

Shaft weight tends to be more influential in the results - but you're already at a lower/mid weight shafts.   You could try going even lighter. That might work for some to increase swing speed but there is no guarantee that you'll get more club head speed by going lighter.  And there can potentially be adverse effects in terms of consistency and dispersion if you go too light.

 

Both shaft weight and swing weight can also sometimes have some effects on the release timing - and therefore the dynamic loft delivered.   So never hurts to play around with lead tape on the head.

Very good questions. Let's see, I didn't really have this problem with my g25's (stock steel stiff shafts which im going to guess were about 115-120 grams), then I went to my ben hogan's and the impacts felt good but the distance fell short unless I really swung hard. At the time I had the original BH stiff shafts in them. So basically the same problem I'm having in my 68's and p7mc's. I did change my swing a bit, more of a ben hogan type of swing (I was more of a punch shot type of hitter, I want to be more fluid), but even when I get full rotation and it's fluid and feels good I'm still coming up short. When I do botch my shots it usually has a fade or full on slice, which I'm guessing is due to my lower body not rotating because my back is locking up (lower back problems). If I swing easy 7-9 irons usually end up in the same place, the distance only changes when I start swinging hard, and it's short. 

I don't have a way to check the launch data right now, though I'm looking into getting a swing speed radar thing so I can see how fast I'm actually swinging because I have no idea, lol.

As far as impact on the face I'll try the foot powder thing, but so far when I'm swing right it's usually in the center of the face, when I'm off it's more towards the toe. When I'm really off it's more at the toe edge.

I went with lighter shafts during the rebuilds of the BH's and p7mc's because I was starting to get fatigued during a round and I thought it might help. The 68's came with the 950 shafts, and feelwise I really like them, even more than the OTI 100's actually. The swing weight of the p7mc's are around a D4-D5 with mid grips, and the 68's were a D0 before I put mid grips on it. No idea what they are now. I also have no idea what the BH's are, maybe a D3-D4.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Kal L

[Kal L]

2 hours ago, seis said:

I am 69 years old with two replacement hips. This year I started swinging graphite senior flex irons. I have recovered some distance with a bit less accuracy. That is the trade off. Father Time is undefeated and you have to give in eventually to keep enjoying the game.

I just got into swinging graphite shafts. I was told it really helps people with back problems, joint issues, etc... They take some getting used to but I like the one I have right now, though that 950 steel shaft is my favorite so far. 😆 

[seis]

2 minutes ago, Kal L said:

I just got into swinging graphite shafts. I was told it really helps people with back problems, joint issues, etc... They take some getting used to but I like the one I have right now, though that 950 steel shaft is my favorite so far. 😆 

I had played a set of Ping G5 irons, steel stiff, for the last 10 years. I loved these clubs but, like you, the last 2 years I was coming up short by 10 yards especially on par 3’s. Awhile back I had bought a set of Ping G20 irons from Golfsmith, senior graphite, that were a great price because the store was closing. I put them in the crawl space with the idea that eventually I would have to go to them. That time was last year. I am hitting greens again with a bit less accuracy than the steel shafted but I am getting better each time out with them. My hands don’t hurt as much either. Sucks getting old…

 

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, Kal L said:

Hey all, I need some help trying to figure out why I'm losing distance with my irons, especially with the 7 and 8 iron (I don't usually use anything below a 7). I have several sets of irons and the same thing seems to be happening with all of them. My mp68's have the stock ns pro 950's in stiff in them and my p7mc's have OTI 100's in stiff with them soft stepped once. They both feel nice when I hit with them but distance is lacking.

An example would be my 7-9 iron have roughly the same distance with the same swing speed and tempo, the only way I can get more distance out of let's say the 7 or 8 irons would be to hit harder, and then they still don't get the distance I'm supposed to get. Another example is I was 150 yards out today and I used my 7 iron. I had a beautiful hit, felt nice off the face, good solid contact, smooth, and I was 20-25 yards short. I've read somewhere that this might be due to the shafts not being stiff enough. The same article said that if you fade or slice (which I do on occasion) it is also because the shafts aren't stiff enough but I have no idea. Any ideas or feedback is welcome. This is driving me nuts, I love the feel of these irons but the lack of distance is depressing...

Sounds like the aging process is upon you.  I am probably older, and been battling distance for the last five years, in pretty good shape too.  I could be stronger, but I doubt that's going to happen at my age.  Shaft flex might not be stiff enough when someone has a fast tempo and transition, like me. 

 

Best guess, your ball striking is not what you'd like it to be.

 

Swing elasticity and physical strength and proper transition are required for max SS, and max SS doesn't necessary equate to good ball striking.  My iron SS is 80ish, but depending on my body, 7 iron is 145-148yds carry, that's with composite MMT 95 stiff and PX 5.5 stiff steel.  I hoped new T100s strong lofted irons would improve distance, but they don't help much, least with my mechanics.  I hit T100 7i a bit further than T100s 7i, but both are a bit longer than traditional lofted 620 MB & CB 7 irons.  If my ball striking is off, I lose 10+ yards of carry.

 

There is NO distance you, or I should get; only what your mechanics, flexibility, strength, ball striking and proper club loft creates.

 

If I want more spin, I hit the ball HARDER; that doesn't necessarily equate to greater distance.  If I want greater distance with a give club – I swing faster.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

Very good questions. Let's see, I didn't really have this problem with my g25's (stock steel stiff shafts which im going to guess were about 115-120 grams), then I went to my ben hogan's and the impacts felt good but the distance fell short unless I really swung hard.

 

How long ago was that?   But first thing to do is to compare the lofts of the two sets.   What shaft was in the Hogan's (I don't see a reference to them in the OP - only the mizuno's and TM's).

 

Also you moved to irons that were much less forgiving for off center hits - so the foot powder spray use might tell us about that possibility.

 

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

 I did change my swing a bit, more of a ben hogan type of swing (I was more of a punch shot type of hitter, I want to be more fluid)

 

Did you do anything to check and track swing speed changes during that swing change?

 

Did the swing get more shallow?  (thinner divots?)  That could mean adding loft - which can also hurt distance.

 

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

which I'm guessing is due to my lower body not rotating because my back is locking up (lower back problems). If I swing easy 7-9 irons usually end up in the same place, the distance only changes when I start swinging hard, and it's short.

 

Another possible sign of adding loft.  The harder swing could also be speeding up the release resulting in less shaft lean at impact.     Also harder doesn't always mean faster - especially with back problems. 

 

That's why it's important to monitor the actual numbers with an LM - particularly during swing changes.

 

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

I don't have a way to check the launch data right now, though I'm looking into getting a swing speed radar thing so I can see how fast I'm actually swinging because I have no idea, lol.

 

A local pro might have a LM you could pay for a session to do some checking.  Also most retail golf outlets have LM's you might be able to sneak on for no cost during low periods.

 

Swing speed radar is something - but don't always give the speed right at impact.  Also doesn't help with the dynamic loft question.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

The swing weight of the p7mc's are around a D4-D5 with mid grips, and the 68's were a D0 before I put mid grips on it.

 

That might be considered a bit on the light side - which can also (sometimes) speed up the timing of the release and add dynamic loft.   Couldn't hurt to play around with some lead tape on the heads just to see what happens.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Kal L]

2 hours ago, seis said:

I had played a set of Ping G5 irons, steel stiff, for the last 10 years. I loved these clubs but, like you, the last 2 years I was coming up short by 10 yards especially on par 3’s. Awhile back I had bought a set of Ping G20 irons from Golfsmith, senior graphite, that were a great price because the store was closing. I put them in the crawl space with the idea that eventually I would have to go to them. That time was last year. I am hitting greens again with a bit less accuracy than the steel shafted but I am getting better each time out with them. My hands don’t hurt as much either. Sucks getting old…

 

 

 

 

Tell me about it. I haven't quite hit 50 yet but my body is broken down. The g20's ain't a bad iron. Had a friend with them, and that was kinda what steered me to the g25's I used to have.

[Kal L]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

How long ago was that?   But first thing to do is to compare the lofts of the two sets.   What shaft was in the Hogan's (I don't see a reference to them in the OP - only the mizuno's and TM's).

 

Also you moved to irons that were much less forgiving for off center hits - so the foot powder spray use might tell us about that possibility.

 

 

Did you do anything to check and track swing speed changes during that swing change?

 

Did the swing get more shallow?  (thinner divots?)  That could mean adding loft - which can also hurt distance.

 

 

Another possible sign of adding loft.  The harder swing could also be speeding up the release resulting in less shaft lean at impact.     Also harder doesn't always mean faster - especially with back problems. 

 

That's why it's important to monitor the actual numbers with an LM - particularly during swing changes.

 

 

A local pro might have a LM you could pay for a session to do some checking.  Also most retail golf outlets have LM's you might be able to sneak on for no cost during low periods.

 

Swing speed radar is something - but don't always give the speed right at impact.  Also doesn't help with the dynamic loft question.

 

 

 

That might be considered a bit on the light side - which can also (sometimes) speed up the timing of the release and add dynamic loft.   Couldn't hurt to play around with some lead tape on the heads just to see what happens.

You bring up a lot of good points! I got the BH's back in February and they had the stock BH shafts in I'm assuming stiff. They had a 4 on them. I have since swapped them out for steel fiber stiffs double soft stepped. 

Yea, I'll grab a can of foot powder next time I go to the store. They are less forgiving but I love the heck out of them, especially the 68's. Way smoother than my past sets. 

 

I don't have a way to check my actual swing speed. I did notice when I changed to somewhat of the ben hogan method I got smoother, not as Jerry, though I still have a tendency to pause at the top of my backswing and speed up on the downswing from time to time. The swing also got shallow, as in I don't leave a divot very often. 

Do you have a suggestion on an affordable LM I could get? I don't have a local pro here and I don't have any big box store type places or indoor hitting ranges by me. The closest is about 3 hours away.

Which one is on the light side? And what swingweight do you suggest? I'll go put some lead tape on them this afternoon so they are ready for the range tomorrow. What your saying makes sense. If I'm understanding it correctly the lighter shafts are messing with my timing and the lag. If I put the tape on them and it turns out I need more weight is it better to add weight to the head, get a little heavier shaft, or a combination of both? I was going to change the shafts out in the 68's anyway since I have to add a 1/2" to them and I don't like extensions. I was thinking of the same shaft, the 950's, unless you suggest a heavier shaft like the 1050's or 1150's.

 

Forgot to mention, all three sets are set at factory lofts, though I did adjust the lies 2 degrees up due to my height. 

 

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Kal L said:

Do you have a suggestion on an affordable LM I could get?

 

Depends on your definition of "affordable."  🙂

 

At one point, the Mevo was one that was both affordable and reliable.   No club data but good ball data.   There have been other "affordable" options released since then but I haven't been keeping up on them.  Just make sure it actually does measure ball spin (and not calculate it) if you want reliable distances.   Just because a personal LM shows you spin numbers - doesn't mean it measures it.

 

13 hours ago, Kal L said:

And what swingweight do you suggest? I'll go put some lead tape on them this afternoon so they are ready for the range tomorrow. What your saying makes sense. If I'm understanding it correctly the lighter shafts are messing with my timing and the lag. If I put the tape on them and it turns out I need more weight is it better to add weight to the head, get a little heavier shaft, or a combination of both?

 

 

It's just a possibility that the weight is influencing the timing.   That's what testing will help you figure out.

 

Shaft weight and head weight are separate aspects that should be fit somewhat independently.   Each can effect different individuals differently.   So feel free to experiment with both.   Just realize that anytime you do change the shaft weight, ideally you should go through the process of finding the best head weight for that shaft weight.

 

13 hours ago, Kal L said:

Forgot to mention, all three sets are set at factory lofts, though I did adjust the lies 2 degrees up due to my height.

 

 

Not all models have the same lofts from the factory.   You have to look up and compare the stock specs for the different models - especially the g25 vs the newer heads.

 

[Kal L]

11 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Depends on your definition of "affordable."  🙂

 

At one point, the Mevo was one that was both affordable and reliable.   No club data but good ball data.   There have been other "affordable" options released since then but I haven't been keeping up on them.  Just make sure it actually does measure ball spin (and not calculate it) if you want reliable distances.   Just because a personal LM shows you spin numbers - doesn't mean it measures it.

 

 

It's just a possibility that the weight is influencing the timing.   That's what testing will help you figure out.

 

Shaft weight and head weight are separate aspects that should be fit somewhat independently.   Each can effect different individuals differently.   So feel free to experiment with both.   Just realize that anytime you do change the shaft weight, ideally you should go through the process of finding the best head weight for that shaft weight.

 

 

Not all models have the same lofts from the factory.   You have to look up and compare the stock specs for the different models - especially the g25 vs the newer heads.

 

I think your right. I was using my p7mc's at the range yesterday afternoon and due to the extra weight my timing was coming back. I haven't had a chance to get the foot powder spray yet, but from the grass stains and range ball marks I'm hitting slightly off center going towards the toe. Why, I haven't a clue. 

I took a quick peak at that LM you were talking about. It's going to be about a month before I can get a LM, finances being what they are and all that. 

Do you know off the top of your head a good thread to read on how to determine shaft weight and head weight? 

I added some weight to the 68's and tried to go to the range after work today. Didn't turn out so well... I was so tired and sore I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I made about 5 good strikes out of a large bucket of balls and that was about it. 

And your right about the lofts. I set each set to their factory setting for each brand/set, and there was a difference between them, usually about a degree or two. 

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, Kal L said:

Do you know off the top of your head a good thread to read on how to determine shaft weight and head weight? 

 

It was written for driver tune up's - but the part about testing and finding best shaft weight and head weight are valid for any club.  Just ignore the parts about changing playing length.  Fitting iron length is quite a bit different from fitting playing length in drivers/woods.

 

 

[shart6]

On 7/9/2023 at 4:42 PM, Kal L said:

Hey all, I need some help trying to figure out why I'm losing distance with my irons, especially with the 7 and 8 iron (I don't usually use anything below a 7). I have several sets of irons and the same thing seems to be happening with all of them. My mp68's have the stock ns pro 950's in stiff in them and my p7mc's have OTI 100's in stiff with them soft stepped once. They both feel nice when I hit with them but distance is lacking.

An example would be my 7-9 iron have roughly the same distance with the same swing speed and tempo, the only way I can get more distance out of let's say the 7 or 8 irons would be to hit harder, and then they still don't get the distance I'm supposed to get. Another example is I was 150 yards out today and I used my 7 iron. I had a beautiful hit, felt nice off the face, good solid contact, smooth, and I was 20-25 yards short. I've read somewhere that this might be due to the shafts not being stiff enough. The same article said that if you fade or slice (which I do on occasion) it is also because the shafts aren't stiff enough but I have no idea. Any ideas or feedback is welcome. This is driving me nuts, I love the feel of these irons but the lack of distance is depressing...

Well I can't imagine playing irons with Maltby Playability Factors of 342 and 417.  That may be most of your problem.  In my case at 69 I noticed a loss of distance on solid hits. I built a set of Ping S58 irons with old Project X 5.5 shafts. My distance is back to what I consider normal.

[Kal L]

14 hours ago, shart6 said:

Well I can't imagine playing irons with Maltby Playability Factors of 342 and 417.  That may be most of your problem.  In my case at 69 I noticed a loss of distance on solid hits. I built a set of Ping S58 irons with old Project X 5.5 shafts. My distance is back to what I consider normal.

Ok, you lost me. What's a maltby playability factor?

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

Ok, you lost me. What's a maltby playability factor?

 

You didn't miss much.  Just one person's opinion on what makes an iron design more easy to play than another.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/head-mpf-ratings/

https://www.golfworks.com/about-mpf/

 

The individual data collected on the heads can be useful (or just interesting) but the final rating is arguably not very useful by itself.   Lots of threads on that already so probably best not to dig it up again here. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Stuart_G

[NCDuffer]

1 hour ago, Kal L said:

Ok, you lost me. What's a maltby playability factor?

https://www.golfworks.com/head-mpf-ratings/ 

[Kal L]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You didn't miss much.  Just one person's opinion on what makes an iron design more easy to play than another.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/head-mpf-ratings/

https://www.golfworks.com/about-mpf/

 

The individual data collected on the heads can be useful (or just interesting) but the final rating is arguably not very useful by itself.   Lots of threads on that already so probably best not to dig it up again here. 

 

 

 

 

Gotcha. 👍 I'll look it up while I'm doing laundry, 😆. I play those clubs fine, they feel great, the ball goes where I want it to go, I just don't get the distance like I used to. Even without getting the distance I wouldn't go back to the pings. These feel too nice. 😆 I was hitting on the range today and I think your right. The way I was coming through I don't think I was "delofting" them enough like you said. That and after a few hits my lower body started to lock up so that didn't help...

 

I talked to a buddy of mine, he's going to look into getting a launch monitor. He was talking about maybe a Garmin (like what Rick shils uses) or something but I have no idea...

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, Kal L said:

The way I was coming through I don't think I was "delofting" them enough like you said.

 

FYI - I didn't mean to imply there was a right or wrong amount of delofting,  there really isn't any ideal or optimal numbers here.    It's a trade off between how far it goes and how soft it lands on the green (how much roll out).  So it's really a balance between carry distance vs distance control.  And each person has to find what balance works best for them and their game.

 

[Kal L]

14 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

FYI - I didn't mean to imply there was a right or wrong amount of delofting,  there really isn't any ideal or optimal numbers here.    It's a trade off between how far it goes and how soft it lands on the green (how much roll out).  So it's really a balance between carry distance vs distance control.  And each person has to find what balance works best for them and their game.

 

You were still right though. I delofted the heads today and with a smoother swing I started to get some distance back with my pw and 9 iron. In going to try the 7 and 8 next time I go, but your right, it's kinda like a balancing act and trade off. I was able to get it to land a little more focused and softer today but it cost me distance, so now I know I'm going to have to step a club to do the same thing but get the distance.  I'm far from perfect at it but I'm working on it. I was even able to hit the steel fiber shafts and it feel ok,  though I still like the OT 100's better.