Swing Direction Explanation *Updated Data*

[kobe123]

All,

 

Can someone help me understand swing direction vs club path?

 

I recently was on trackman with an 8 iron and I was told I need to get my swing direction more negative.

 

Attack Angle: -6 to -8

Club Path: 0 to +2

Swing Direction: 0 to +2

 

These are the numbers I remember. I couldn't get my path nor swing direction negative no matter how hard I tried. 

 

Any suggestions?

Edited July 19, 2023 by kobe123

[GoGoErky]

From what I recall the positive number means you are under plane for right handed golfers. 

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, kobe123 said:

All,

 

Can someone help me understand swing direction vs club path?

 

I recently was on trackman with an 8 iron and I was told I need to get my swing direction more negative.

 

Attack Angle: -6 to -8

Club Path: 0 to +2

Swing Direction: 0 to +2

 

These are the numbers I remember. I couldn't get my path nor swing direction negative no matter how hard I tried. 

 

Any suggestions?

0 to +2 is a nice range for both swing direction and club path - will produce a baby push draw if you get the face to target about half of the path number. What did the instructor say was the reason you needed swing direction more left?

 

Since you’re already -6 to -8 AoA with an 8-iron (more down than most pros), moving your swing direction left will likely make you even more down. 

[glk]

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/swing-path-vs-swing-direction/

[kobe123]

9 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

0 to +2 is a nice range for both swing direction and club path - will produce a baby push draw if you get the face to target about half of the path number. What did the instructor say was the reason you needed swing direction more left?

 

Since you’re already -6 to -8 AoA with an 8-iron (more down than most pros), moving your swing direction left will likely make you even more down. 

 

This is what I thought, it if I swing left it will make it down even more, what I was told was basically that I need a negative swing direction hitting that much down. I'm not sure how to accomplish this and I feel super steep and swipey when I get the direction left.

Edited July 17, 2023 by kobe123

[GungHoGolf]

2 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

This is what I thought about if I swing left it will make it down even more, what I was told was basically that I need a negative swing direction hitting that much down. I'm not sure how to accomplish this and I feel super steep and swipey when I get the direction left.

Well, I didn’t want to complicate the discussion by bringing up the “D-plane”, but yes, usually when your AoA is that much down, your club path will be further right than your swing direction. But you said both were 0-2. 

 

So there’s either some bad data here (TrackMan setup issue?), or perhaps your ranges were misstated?

[kobe123]

Just now, GungHoGolf said:

Well, I didn’t want to complicate the discussion by bringing up the “D-plane”, but yes, usually when your AoA is that much down, your club path will be further right than your swing direction. But you said both were 0-2. 

 

So there’s either some bad data here (TrackMan setup issue?), or perhaps your ranges were misstated?

 

You may be right, my direction could of varied from -1 to +2 and my path could of varied from 0 to +4.

[betarhoalphadelta]

This doesn't seem to make sense...

 

I would think that if your swing path and swing direction are roughly identical, you'd be striking the ball at the low point of your swing. Because that's the point in time that they're identical. If you're striking before low point your path should be greater (further right) than your swing direction, and if you're striking after your low point your path should be lesser (further left) than your swing direction. 

 

Yet if you're at negative 6-8* AoA, clearly you're striking the ball well before your low point.  

 

Clearly I'm missing something here... 

[GungHoGolf]

1 minute ago, kobe123 said:

 

You may be right, my direction could of varied from -1 to +2 and my path could of varied from 0 to +4.

That makes more sense. Did he give you access to your raw data? If you create an account on mytrackman.com, and he entered your email into TrackMan, you may already have access to it. 

[kobe123]

9 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

That makes more sense. Did he give you access to your raw data? If you create an account on mytrackman.com, and he entered your email into TrackMan, you may already have access to it. 

 

No, but I can most likely get some tomorrow.  Also, I'm going to ask to start recording the shots. I may be misinterpreting the numbers. I just know, he wanted my swing direction more left.

[kobe123]

13 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

This doesn't seem to make sense...

 

I would think that if your swing path and swing direction are roughly identical, you'd be striking the ball at the low point of your swing. Because that's the point in time that they're identical. If you're striking before low point your path should be greater (further right) than your swing direction, and if you're striking after your low point your path should be lesser (further left) than your swing direction. 

 

Yet if you're at negative 6-8* AoA, clearly you're striking the ball well before your low point.  

 

Clearly I'm missing something here... 

 I'm sorry, let me get on trackman tomorrow and I'll get some actual numbers. (screenshots)

Edited July 17, 2023 by kobe123

[doctor220]

Swing direction or HSP represents the non-shifted horizontal direction of the swing path. So it represents the direction the club is going when AoA = 0. As AoA becomes negative it shifts path more right ( for a righty) and obviously the opposite for positive AoAs. 
 

as said above those numbers you recalled cannot be correct. For swing direction to equal path AoA would have to be 0. If AoA is -6 to -8 then path will be 4-5 degrees right of swing direction. 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

All,

 

Can someone help me understand swing direction vs club path?

 

I recently was on trackman with an 8 iron and I was told I need to get my swing direction more negative.

 

Attack Angle: -6 to -8

Club Path: 0 to +2

Swing Direction: 0 to +2

 

These are the numbers I remember. I couldn't get my path nor swing direction negative no matter how hard I tried. 

 

Any suggestions?

I hate this kind of teaching.  Numbers chasing.  That’s not what they’re for.  You diagnose the swing issue causijgnthe numbers to not be matched up and address that.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Swing direction or HSP represents the non-shifted horizontal direction of the swing path. So it represents the direction the club is going when AoA = 0. As AoA becomes negative it shifts path more right ( for a righty) and obviously the opposite for positive AoAs. 
 

as said above those numbers you recalled cannot be correct. For swing direction to equal path AoA would have to be 0. If AoA is -6 to -8 then path will be 4-5 degrees right of swing direction. 

Yes

[fjk]

The simplistic answer to your question is that club path is what the club is doing when it strikes the ball and swing direction is what your overall club path is doing before and after.

 

The hula hoop is a good illustration - the whole hula hoop "plane" is the swing direction, but if you trace along the hula hoop it is traveling "out" or "right" as it goes down and then "in" or "left" as it comes up. So depending on where the ball is on the strike, that is why club path and swing direction would be different numbers.

 

If you need your swing direction more left you can either set up aiming more left and adapt ball flight from there (based on ball position and what the clubface is doing) or you can try to swing less right/swing more left. A few degrees is subtle. It's not an aggressive move left.

[kobe123]

Here is some pictures. Not going to say these were the best strike, but here is data. 
 

first picture is a mishit 8 iron, 2nd is well struck 7 iron. These are not as far down with AOA as usual. The AOA range was -4 to -6

 

you can see I hit it in the heel when I try to get path negative 

Edited July 19, 2023 by kobe123

[PracticeSwinger]

5 hours ago, kobe123 said:

Here is some pictures. Not going to say these were the best strike, but here is data. 
 

first picture is a mishit 8 iron, 2nd is well struck 7 iron. These are not as far down with AOA as usual. The AOA range was -4 to -6

 

you can see I hit it in the heel when I try to get path negative 

AoA of -6.6 is a bit much but playable (hitting hit before low point and explaining the difference between swing direction and face path you asked). Biggest point is face to path though, your face is pretty much straight to the target already (thus starting at the target), and with your path being positive it creates a big FTP number that slings it left. Had your face been open 2* or so, it would have created that nice push draw.

[kobe123]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

AoA of -6.6 is a bit much but playable (hitting hit before low point and explaining the difference between swing direction and face path you asked). Biggest point is face to path though, your face is pretty much straight to the target already (thus starting at the target), and with your path being positive it creates a big FTP number that slings it left. Had your face been open 2* or so, it would have created that nice push draw.

I have been working on hitting lower. When I started 2 months ago my dynamic loft with an 8 iron was 28

[GungHoGolf]

This is tangential to your original query, but the point of data that jumped out for me in the two shots above is your Dynamic Lie of ~69°.

 

A standard 7-iron is 62-63°, so you’re effectively 6-7° up. Either very high hands at impact (typical of a “slinging draw”-style release), standing very close to the ball, and/or very tall with shafts too short for you. If your irons have not been bent up significantly (more than 3), your DL by itself with a neutral face and path will produce a push-fade ball flight with toe-deep divots, and could be a root cause of you learning to over-draw the ball (face too closed to path) to protect against the push-fade miss.  

 

If you are returning your hands to impact excessively higher than address, focusing on keeping them closer to your thighs coming through impact may help to neutralizing your path. 

 

Back to your original query: your swing direction (0-2) and path (4) are very playable, and you have nice speed - what’s your index?

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[kobe123]

48 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

This is tangential to your original query, but the point of data that jumped out for me in the two shots above is your Dynamic Lie of ~69°.

 

A standard 7-iron is 62-63°, so you’re effectively 6-7° up. Either very high hands at impact (typical of a “slinging draw”-style release), standing very close to the ball, and/or very tall with shafts too short for you. If your irons have not been bent up significantly (more than 3), your DL by itself with a neutral face and path will produce a push-fade ball flight with toe-deep divots, and could be a root cause of you learning to over-draw the ball (face too closed to path) to protect against the push-fade miss.  

 

If you are returning your hands to impact excessively higher than address, focusing on keeping them closer to your thighs coming through impact may help to neutralizing your path. 

 

Back to your original query: your swing direction (0-2) and path (4) are very playable, and you have nice speed - what’s your index?

 

 

 

I 100% agree on the dynamic lie, it's the first thing I noticed. I don't know how to get it down at all. I tried and tried and tried. My brain says if I get more a left swing direction, I'm going to have even higher hands at impact.

 

I end up with very high hands and impact, but rarely ever play a slinging draw, more of a pull draw. I'm 6' with +.25" and standard lie. My miss has been a ton on the toe lately. I would be okay with a 0-2 SD and 4 Club path, if my dynamic lie was lower.

 

My index is 0. 

 

Hopes this helps. I have access to a Trackman any time if you need more data. I'm just lost on how to swing "more left"

Edited July 19, 2023 by kobe123

[GungHoGolf]

13 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

I 100% agree on the dynamic lie, it's the first thing I noticed. I don't know how to get it down at all. I tried and tried and tried. My brain says if I get more a left swing direction, I'm going to have even higher hands at impact.

 

I end up with very high hands and impact, but rarely ever play a slinging draw, more of a pull draw. I'm 6' with +.25" and standard lie. My miss has been a ton on the toe lately.

 

My index is 0. 

 

Took a trackman combine last night score and 81.3, not sure what that means, I'd never taken one.

 

Hopes this helps. I have access to a Trackman any time if you need more data. I'm just lost on how to swing "more left"

 

The toe miss is typical of high hands. 

 

I have a similar tendency to get high hands. The feel that works for me is focusing on returning my hands closer to my thighs through impact (I look down and note where there are at address and try to return them there - only while practicing lol), which for me also requires more lead arm supination to get the clubhead out to the ball. 

 

You don’t have a typical pull draw pattern, since your path is positive. Just opening the face 2° (with a weaker grip or a feeling of holding off the release a bit) would produce a perfect push baby draw back to center. 

 

Bending your clubs more upright will accentuate your left miss. I’d first work on getting the DL back to 65 with the 7i, then bending it up 2° to match. Lower hands may help neutralize your path some. 

[kobe123]

2 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

The toe miss is typical of high hands. 

 

I have a similar tendency to get high hands. The feel that works for me is focusing on returning my hands closer to my thighs through impact (I look down and note where there are at address and try to return them there - only while practicing lol), which for me also requires more lead arm supination to get the clubhead out to the ball. 

 

You don’t have a typical pull draw pattern, since your path is positive. Just opening the face 2° (with a weaker grip or a feeling of holding off the release a bit) would produce a perfect push baby draw back to center. 

 

Bending your clubs more upright will accentuate your left miss. I’d first work on getting the DL back to 65 with the 7i, then bending it up 2° to match. Lower hands may help neutralize your path some. 

 

Agree with this, the dynamic lie is the issue. I know what it means thankfully, now I just don't know how to get there. LOL

[GungHoGolf]

15 minutes ago, kobe123 said:

 

Agree with this, the dynamic lie is the issue. I know what it means thankfully, now I just don't know how to get there. LOL

 

You may be a candidate for the “Malaska Move” (plenty of that on YouTube) - tipping the clubhead out more from the top, and thinking “hands in, clubhead out” through impact. Especially if you have any tendency to early extend or get “stuck.”

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, kobe123 said:

 

Hopes this helps. I have access to a Trackman any time if you need more data. I'm just lost on how to swing "more left"

 

I'd venture some of the folks in this thread (esp. Monte) would be a lot more helpful solving any issues you might have with your swing, if you provided swing videos rather than Trackman data. 

[kobe123]

23 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

The toe miss is typical of high hands. 

 

I have a similar tendency to get high hands. The feel that works for me is focusing on returning my hands closer to my thighs through impact (I look down and note where there are at address and try to return them there - only while practicing lol), which for me also requires more lead arm supination to get the clubhead out to the ball. 

 

You don’t have a typical pull draw pattern, since your path is positive. Just opening the face 2° (with a weaker grip or a feeling of holding off the release a bit) would produce a perfect push baby draw back to center. 

 

Bending your clubs more upright will accentuate your left miss. I’d first work on getting the DL back to 65 with the 7i, then bending it up 2° to match. Lower hands may help neutralize your path some. 

 

Practice getting my dynamic lie lower yesterday by putting an alignment stick by my hands. Worked wonders.

[MK7Golf21]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:22 AM, GungHoGolf said:

 

You may be a candidate for the “Malaska Move” (plenty of that on YouTube) - tipping the clubhead out more from the top, and thinking “hands in, clubhead out” through impact. Especially if you have any tendency to early extend or get “stuck.”

 

That's really the "Hardy move", don't know who Hardy got it from. It's part of the one plane swing model he put together. Malaska was into that back in the day and learned a lot from Hardy.