How to get distance without early extending?

[hacker40]

Hello, I'd love to get some thoughts on the attached three swings (all with 7 iron).  Note the ball flight for each of those shots was a push draw that ended up near the center (per my GC2).

 

Swing 1 - This my "standard" swing that I've had forever.  The carry distance on this one was 180 (which is typical).  You'll notice obvious early extension with rolling/flipping of the hands through impact.  As you would expect, it is very inconsistent.  Lots of pushes and hooks.  Having said that, my distances are pretty good hitting the ball like this.

 

Swing 2 - In this swing I rotate hard through the ball and there is very little early extension.  I also get a nice lower exit path with the hands and club.  The ball flights tend to be more consistent using this swing.  However, my distances are way down and the launch angles are too low.  The carry distance on this was 163, which is about as good as I can do with this swing.  What can I do to improve distance and launch angle without early extending?

 

One of the obvious flaws with each of the swings above is that at the start of the downswing my left arm is stuck to my chest and the hands and right elbow get way behind me.  That's where swing 3 comes in:

 

Swing 3 - In this swing I attempt to get the hands and right elbow out in front of me (which is very challenging for me, but I can somewhat do it).  Similar to swing 2, no early extension and a nice low exit of the hands and club.  The club also shallows better in the early part of the downswing.  However, again, distance and launch angle are way down.  The carry on this was 160, and I can't do much better than that with this swing.  You may also notice that in order to square the clubface with this swing I have to have the club about 40 degrees closed at address.  Any thoughts on that would also be appreciated.

 

Ultimately, I have a couple questions.  First, which swing would you recommend I work from and what would you do to improve it?  Second, how can I create more distance with either of the latter two swings, given they are seemingly "better" swings than the first, but distance is lacking with them.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

You've accurately identified several things it looks like, the common thread that is causing issues is that pinning of your arms in the downswing.

Swing 1 - The dropping of your hands behind you and the pinning of the left arm across the chest combined with your right hip kicking out in the downswing gets the club coming down steep which leads to the early extension/loss of spine angle. The flip that is then created at the bottom seems to force your arms off your chest creating a little extra speed, hence the distance difference IMO.

Swing 2 - You do a much better job of maintaining hip depth in this one so you're not forced to lose your spine angle as much here. This means less flip at the bottom but as a result also less speed.

Swing 3 - This one is the most impressive aesthetically and is a great example of how club plane in the downswing effects spine angle retention/side bend. You keep the hands out more in the downswing as noted and you shallow the club far more than the previous two. This combined with the same type of better hip action of #2 means you're able to completely retain your spine angle, but again the pinned arms are reducing your speed and the lack of wrist set at the top means less ability to release the club at the bottom, hence needing the shut face.

Swing #3 with a better wrist set at the top, less spine tilt (you're too extreme here IMO) and arms getting off your chest in transition would be ideal. The club path/plane in #3 is objectively between than the other two which both see your hands dropping too far behind you in transition. You just need to get those arms working because that exaggerated pinning hurts your speed. The excessive spine tilt might be making you feel you can't throw your arms at all, so i'd either start more upright or work on not increasing your tilt in the backswing like you do currently (you drop down quite a lot). Feel taller in the backswing and the drop can happen more naturally in transition.

[hacker40]

Thank you for the feedback!  I appreciate it.  I can certainly work on less tilt in the back swing and more wrist set.

 

Getting the left arm off the chest is very challenging for me, though.  Let me know if you have any recommendations for drills.  Just letting the club drop does not work for me since the hands just fall behind me.  I have tried pushing the arms away from me in transition, but it tends to throw off my balance and hurt my lower back.

[slytown]

Agreed. You can take cues from #3 like good rotation and shallowing, but its making the ball go too low.

 

The biggest thing you can do is getting a wider backswing, use the arms more for power, and reduce the tilt. The tilt is making your swing so up to down that there is no space to swing on plane. Work on a more rounded, wider, and flatter swing. I like this for a concept.

 

 

[hacker40]

Thank you!

 

Beyond having less tilt, can you clarify what you mean by "wider backswing"?  Does that mean keeping the arms more in front of me and not getting the left arm stuck against my chest?

[voodoo13]

I see too much emphasis on the body turning down which results in your left arm just riding the chest. 
 

Keep back to the target longer and let left arm drop. This will shallow the club. You might even try throwing the club head away from you at the top as you start down. This will prompt the correct arm movement before the rotation down begins. 

[slytown]

16 hours ago, hacker40 said:

Thank you!

 

Beyond having less tilt, can you clarify what you mean by "wider backswing"?  Does that mean keeping the arms more in front of me and not getting the left arm stuck against my chest?

 

[hacker40]

Thank you all!  I appreciate it.

 

Probably the main thing that eludes me is getting the left arm off the chest in the downswing.  I've been working on and off on that for probably close to 10 years, with no success whatsoever.

 

Below is a swing where I'm exaggerating the feel of just letting the arms fall from the top of the backswing.  Would you consider this move useful at all?  The club does shallow nicely.  But I would argue that the left arm really doesn't get off my chest much, even in this exaggerated version.  Also, I don't see how I would be able to all of a sudden active the lower body to generate speed doing this.

 

Below is a picture of Morikawa in his downswing.  If you draw a vertical line down from his left shoulder, his left hand is well out to the right of it.  Most good players are similar to this, although to varying degrees.  What forces cause this to happen?  I'm assume it's something in the lower body.  Your arms would be moving so fast at that point you couldn't do anything with your shoulders/arms to make that happen.  Sure, you can early extend and throw the arms out that way (which is what I do), but obviously there is something else he does that causes it.  Without early extending, I've never been able to get my left arm past vertical at this stage in the swing.

[slytown]

3 hours ago, hacker40 said:

Thank you all!  I appreciate it.

 

Probably the main thing that eludes me is getting the left arm off the chest in the downswing.  I've been working on and off on that for probably close to 10 years, with no success whatsoever.

 

Below is a swing where I'm exaggerating the feel of just letting the arms fall from the top of the backswing.  Would you consider this move useful at all?  The club does shallow nicely.  But I would argue that the left arm really doesn't get off my chest much, even in this exaggerated version.  Also, I don't see how I would be able to all of a sudden active the lower body to generate speed doing this.

 

Below is a picture of Morikawa in his downswing.  If you draw a vertical line down from his left shoulder, his left hand is well out to the right of it.  Most good players are similar to this, although to varying degrees.  What forces cause this to happen?  I'm assume it's something in the lower body.  Your arms would be moving so fast at that point you couldn't do anything with your shoulders/arms to make that happen.  Sure, you can early extend and throw the arms out that way (which is what I do), but obviously there is something else he does that causes it.  Without early extending, I've never been able to get my left arm past vertical at this stage in the swing.

Swing 4.mov

 

Letting the arms fall is a misnomer. You want to swing your arms at, or through, the ball. The difference for players like Colin is that they have good sequencing that gets the arms in front. A deep backswing will help keep the club from coming OTT, but the main reason he and other players get the arms in front and good rotation through the ball is from good sequencing.

 

Work on a deeper backswing first. Then you can work on sequencing. The sequencing goes pressure into your lead side, rotation, and armswing. Different players need to work on different starting points for each of the 3. I think for you you should work on the arms coming down earlier.

 

 

[hacker40]

Thank you very much for the feedback!

 

I am mildly surprised by the comment about more depth in the backswing. If you look at my Swing 1 from above, I assume the arms are too deep in that swing, with the right elbow flying out and the left arm strapped to my chest. Thus, I've been working on keeping the arms more in front of me.  Per the AMG videos below, I was thinking this would put me in a better position to not have to move them so far to get them in front of me in the downswing.  Am I thinking of this incorrectly?  I recognize that in swings 3 and 4 my left arm is getting above the shoulder plane at the top, which I can adjust.

 

 

 

https://m.facebook.com/AthleticMotionGolf/videos/lead-arm-adduction-angle-is-a-huge-key-element-that-will-help-you-create-lag-nex/2634891159926400/

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by hacker40

[hacker40]

Here is a practice swing broken into 3 segments.  I feel like there are some good things happening here. I know my head drops too much in the downswing, but I feel like I wouldn't hit the ground if I didn't drop enough. I will also have to figure out how to close the club face at some point.

 

 

[slytown]

Deeper meaning your hands and the clubhead are more behind your body at the top of the backswing and away from your chest. If you just kept your arms straight in front of your chest and then turned, you would get depth. In the real swing, your arms will bend a little going back, but the idea is that the hands and clubhead stay as far away from the chest as possible throughout the swing.

 

You did a perfect analysis of your swing here in the last video. You feel like if you didn't side bend, then you wouldn't hit the ball. That's why you need to work on release. By releasing the club earlier, you will get the clubhead to the ball without bending so much. Look at Monte's amazing no turn cast drill.

 

 

Also look at Scott Hogan's analysis here of why you need to release the club earlier.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by slytown

[hacker40]

Thank you!!

 

The concept of less right elbow bend to achieve more depth makes sense to me. Sometimes I instinctively been the right elbow more when I try to get more wrist hinge.  How is the backswing below?  Too much body turn?

 

On a related note, from DTL my hands appear to come in early on the backswing, but it is just because my body turns early.  Should I change the sequencing in my backswing so that the arms go a little earlier and the body a little later?

 

I will work on those downswing concepts. Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slytown]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:21 AM, hacker40 said:

Thank you!!

 

The concept of less right elbow bend to achieve more depth makes sense to me. Sometimes I instinctively been the right elbow more when I try to get more wrist hinge.  How is the backswing below?  Too much body turn?

 

On a related note, from DTL my hands appear to come in early on the backswing, but it is just because my body turns early.  Should I change the sequencing in my backswing so that the arms go a little earlier and the body a little later?

 

I will work on those downswing concepts. Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its better but i still see a lot of tilting towards the ball in the backswing and the arms going too far, mostly due to the body/hips over rotation and reverse pivot in the backswing. The hands and clubhead are in a decent position at the top, but the way u got there was over rotating. See how straight your right leg is at the top? If u rotated a more reasonable amount, it would still be bent.

 

Try to stay more stood up and just work the club back with your arms like in the first video i showed. U dont need to try and turn ur hips, or ur shoulders, or "wind up" in the backswing. I think u are doing those things to get power.  But, understand that the purpose of the backswing is to put the club in a decent position. Shoulders and hips will follow what the arms do. No extra effort needed. Power is created in the downswing. If u think like this, it should make the backswing feel more effortless.

[uitar9]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:17 PM, hacker40 said:

One of the obvious flaws with each of the swings above is that at the start of the downswing my left arm is stuck to my chest and the hands and right elbow get way behind me. 

 

On 8/27/2023 at 5:48 AM, slytown said:

U dont need to try and turn ur hips, or ur shoulders, or "wind up" in the backswing.

 

On 8/27/2023 at 5:48 AM, slytown said:

Shoulders and hips will follow what the arms do. No extra effort needed.

 

It seems you have no room for the arms / hands fall into that 'slot' so you don't have to flip to catch up. Have you tried starting the back swing and downswing with your hips. It might help organically flattening the plane.

[hacker40]

Thanks again, slytown!  I appreciate you bearing with me on this.

 

What I'm hearing is that I need to turn my hips less, turn my shoulders less, and do less with my arms.  So, in the examples below I've tried to exaggerate limiting all three of them. I guess I'm still getting to about 90° with the shoulders.  Thoughts?

 

The two things I don't like is that the club is very laid off and the right elbow is too far below the left elbow.  How do I resolve these issues without turning more, tilting more, or letting the right elbow fly out?

 

 

 

 

[slytown]

1 hour ago, hacker40 said:

Thanks again, slytown!  I appreciate you bearing with me on this.

 

What I'm hearing is that I need to turn my hips less, turn my shoulders less, and do less with my arms.  So, in the examples below I've tried to exaggerate limiting all three of them. I guess I'm still getting to about 90° with the shoulders.  Thoughts?

 

The two things I don't like is that the club is very laid off and the right elbow is too far below the left elbow.  How do I resolve these issues without turning more, tilting more, or letting the right elbow fly out?

 

 

 

 

 

That looks much better. If you don't want the club so laid off (I think its fine for shorter clubs) work on less forearm rotation. If you were holding a steering wheel, instead of doing a right turn and pointing the clubhead left of your target line, work on pointing it at the sky and then setting the wrists so the clubhead points more towards the target at the top of the backswing.

 

Hit some balls and see what the flight is like. Until we see some shots, we won't know if these practice drills are taking effect.

[hacker40]

Okay, thanks.  Here are a couple swings with the improved backswing (I think?).  The downswing is still a trainwreck. The hands fall a mile behind me.  The first swing is what it instinctively looks like without me really thinking about anything. The second one is what it looks like if I really try to turn through impact and get the hands moving off to the left.  Impact was not good on either of these swings and the clubface was open, but I could figure that out with enough shots.  I just don't know how to get my hands working out away from me at the start of the downswing.

[slytown]

Looks great!. Only thing I see in the downswing is not an early enough release. The release comes late and that's why it looks flippy at the bottom. You are trying to catch the clubhead up late to get to the ball. Work on releasing the club early. If you add some more wrist set in the backswing you can feel the clubhead a little more. That should help you feel the need to release it earlier in the downswing.

 

You basically turn the shoulders in the downswing before the clubhead gets down into the slot. That's why you have that shank in the first video.  The second video looked like a straight ball flight, probably because you squared the face better with your rotation. Release and turn! (This is where Monte's No-Turn Cast is useful.)

Edited August 29, 2023 by slytown

[Valtiel]

I wanted to add to what @slytown said about release here because throughout basically all of these swings you're doing what Padraig talks about here. I knew I wanted to link this video here and I was going to explain separately what I found Padraig saying almost verbatim here, that you appear to be REALLY restricting wrist loading/releasing to your detriment. It isn't simplifying your swing or making it more "one piece" or anything like that, it's restricting/limiting something that you need and forcing you to make up for it later, actually making your swing MORE complex and introducing more moving parts at more volatile points (late in the downswing). This is why it feels/looks "like a trainwreck" in your words, because you have zero hand speed and you're trying to overuse all this big muscle trunk rotation to get the club to the ball, which in your first swing creates this:



This reverse "J" kind of path here where the hands work very vertical initially (dropping) and are then forced to work increasingly horizontally as you approach the ball is emblematic of the "overly passive hands/arms" issue that gets you stuck and flippy, as observed. It is very important that this is what happens "...without me really thinking about anything" as it firmly establishes a tendency that you'll have to consciously work on to overcome. When you don't think and "swing naturally", your hands become way too passive, so I highly recommend the drills Padraig talks about later in that video (definitely watch the whole thing) to get your hands/wrists working correctly.

[hacker40]

Thank you both!  To clarify, when you say release the club earlier, is that effectively unhinging the wrists earlier in the downswing?

 

I am trying the Padraig drill below (feet close together).  How does it look?  I am focusing on getting more movement in the wrists earlier.  It still feels pretty flippy though impact.  But maybe it has to with this drill since I can't turn my body?

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by hacker40

[slytown]

18 minutes ago, hacker40 said:

Thank you both!  To clarify, when you say release the club earlier, is that effectively unhinging the wrists earlier in the downswing?

 

I am trying the Padraig drill below (feet close together).  How does it look?  I am focusing on getting more movement in the wrists earlier.  It still feels pretty flippy though impact.  But maybe it has to with this drill since I can't turn my body?

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

The wrist set is there in the backswing, but u are still flipping at the bottom because your arms are too passive. Get those arms moving.

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, hacker40 said:

Thank you both!  To clarify, when you say release the club earlier, is that effectively unhinging the wrists earlier in the downswing?

I am trying the Padraig drill below (feet close together).  How does it look?  I am focusing on getting more movement in the wrists earlier.  It still feels pretty flippy though impact.

 

The drill is less about "feet together" and far more about using what you feel like is almost *exclusively* your wrists/hands to swing the club, which you aren't doing. You're still hinging them late at the top of the backswing:



Which is also WAY longer than it should be here, this is nearly a full swing, and you're doing this in the downswing:



You're spinning your shoulders and just dropping your arms, this is nearly the opposite of what Padraig is talking about. The hurdle you have here is that when given the prompt of "swing with your hands/wrists/arms" you're not actually doing anything differently, so either you just narrowed your stance and then made the same swing you always make, or you feel like you're swinging different when you actually aren't. Here is the visual you'll need for reference:



There is a roughly 60* difference in shaft angle here due to a massive difference in wrist hinge/set highlighted in red. I know this is an older swing of yours, but your most recent swing looks more or less the same in this regard, ignoring the stance width difference. Your goal then is simple; film yourself face on and get to this position. Left arm parallel to the ground, clubhead pointing straight up, basically creating an "L". You aren't using your wrists properly until you can get to that point, and these should be your "full" swings for now until you get comfortable with that concept.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Valtiel

[hacker40]

Thank you! Not a problem to hinge my wrists earlier. I recognize that drill is a little bit exaggerated, but for some reason I didn't realize I should be doing that.  It's funny... I'm effectively reversing everything that I worked to achieve when I learned golf in the late 90s and early 2000s (use your big muscles, passive arms and wrists, wide backswing).

 

For purposes of the drill, how are these swings?  There is no ball, but I'm just trying to get some of the motions correct. I'm hinging the wrists earlier in the backswing, and then trying to restrict body turn in the downswing.

 

 

[slytown]

4 hours ago, hacker40 said:

Thank you! Not a problem to hinge my wrists earlier. I recognize that drill is a little bit exaggerated, but for some reason I didn't realize I should be doing that.  It's funny... I'm effectively reversing everything that I worked to achieve when I learned golf in the late 90s and early 2000s (use your big muscles, passive arms and wrists, wide backswing).

 

For purposes of the drill, how are these swings?  There is no ball, but I'm just trying to get some of the motions correct. I'm hinging the wrists earlier in the backswing, and then trying to restrict body turn in the downswing.

 

 

 

 

If you look in the first video, u see that your path of the arms is still out, away from your body. It doesn't matter how much or how little you use your wrists, if you can't bring the arms on a downward path instead of horizontally out, you will start the ball left.

 

I agree wrist set will help you with power, but you need to work on moving those arms.

[pingfool]

Going to suggest your distance difference with 3 swings due to angle of attack and whether or not you have de-lofted face @ impact. 

[mizunotpz]

Now I havent read all the posts but the early extension is often a result of bad setup. In your case the hipbones are too far back causing you to stand up and move pelvis closer to the ball. Also looks like you turn around your left side resulting in a reverse pivot. Which also causes early extension. Just trying to get the arms in a good position without fixing posture/setup and turn first is a little backwards. You want the hipbone to be inline with the ankles.

[mizunotpz]

You dont have space for the arms to drop with current posture and then standing up.