A reason to cast?

[moerkb]

Hello!

 

I am a new member here, but been reading (quietly) for quite a while now. Shout out to all you wonderful people who are posting here!

 

For this topic: I am casting the club and I cannot figure out why. In the video and these stills you can see, that the shaft and my lead forearm are aligned well before the ball:

 

 

 

My former teaching pro wanted me to float load in order to learn the "right timed hitting". I managed to do the float load, but it made me a hosel warrior (shanked everything) and having pain in my right wrist, besides still leaving a little bit of cast:

 

 

My current pro wants me to fload load, hold the lag and perform a "free hitting" motion at the same time. Yea, I know. In the many lessons with him I managed to do it correctly every now and then on a random shot. Trackman numbers showed a significant boost in clubhead speed (my cruising driver atm is ~85 mph and 90 mph full out, with those shots in his lessons, I managed to hit a 7-iron at 85 mph with an easy half swing...). So I know I am loosing something by casting the club, but am unable to repeat those random shots from the lessons.

 

According to the great @MonteScheinblum, the cast is not a swing fault, but there to save another (actual) swing fault: rebelliongolf.com/the-truth-about-casting-the-golf-club/ and golftipsmag.com/instruction/full-swing/the-true-secret-of-great-lag

 

I absolutely buy that, because despite the cast, the impact is not too bad: a reasonable amount of shaft lean, downward angle of attack (about 2 to 2.5° avg.), ball-first contact. It is just inconsistent and weak.

 

But I do not see any of those reasons in my swing:

- There is overswinging or too long of a backswing.
- There is no reverse pivot or tilting towards the target.

 

Maybe there is to much lateral movement of the hip? I always had that, but restricting it, did not work either:

 

Swing plane is not too bad, imho:

 

So, does anyone have any idea why I am casting?

[KD1]

Trail elbow action looks a little off to my untrained eye. I'll hang up and listen.

 

edit: Welcome aboard!

Edited September 13, 2023 by KD1

[SNIPERBBB]

Looks more like a flip than a cast, you could call it casting from the bottom if you wish. People tend to get flippy trying to "hold the lag".   You have to flip at the end in order to not whiff the ball  or block it off the planet when trying to hold the lag.

[D0ch0l1d4y]

Video looks like a fair amount of lateral shift. Hips kinda stall and you have to throw your hands at it to make contact.

[moerkb]

14 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Trail elbow action looks a little off to my untrained eye. I'll hang up and listen.

 

edit: Welcome aboard!

 

Thanks 🙂

So by "a little off" you mean it is trailing too much?

 

6 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Looks more like a flip than a cast, you could call it casting from the bottom if you wish. People tend to get flippy trying to "hold the lag".   You have to flip at the end in order to not whiff the ball  or block it off the planet when trying to hold the lag.

 

I am not (consciously) trying to hold lag. In fact I tried to do the "no turn cast" thing and "cast" it to 8 o'clock.

Not sure if to call this a flip. Guess it is a question of definition. By using this one, it would be neither of both, but simply an "early release"?

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, moerkb said:

 

Thanks 🙂

So by "a little off" you mean it is trailing too much?

 

 

I am not (consciously) trying to hold lag. In fact I tried to do the "no turn cast" thing and "cast" it to 8 o'clock.

Not sure if to call this a flip. Guess it is a question of definition. By using this one, it would be neither of both, but simply an "early release"?

Trail hand is starting to pass the lead before impact is a flip. You've got a baby one so you're in decent shape.

[slytown]

OK, before you did the float load, you were not casting. The reason you became a hosel warrior with the float load was because you were presenting a cupped wrist and open face near the bottom of the arc. Yes, on camera you have the lag look, but its manufactured.

 

Don't worry about lag. Worry about sequence and path. If you were hitting well before, stick to that swing. Don't try to manufacture lag.

 

Keep in mind that folks without a lot of speed NEED LESS SHAFT LEAN because they need to get the ball in the air. Only players with speed should have massive amounts of shaft lean in order to keep the ball from ballooning into the wind.

Edited September 13, 2023 by slytown

[KD1]

16 minutes ago, moerkb said:

So by "a little off" you mean it is trailing too much?

Take any thing I say with a few large tablespoons of salt...

 

I see more of a punching action than a yo-yo action with that right arm. Looks like it's a bit stuck behind you or reconnects late? Idk...

[MPStrat]

One suggestion that I think could help you is to forget about the face on angle for a while. Some of what you don’t like from the face on is because of things that are happening dtl.
 

Some of what these teachers are trying to fix  in your swing are effects, and in some cases 2d illusions. It sounds like you are learning to look for 2d club positions but below is an example of something that some would say is good positionally but it’s exactly what is causing the things you were told are bad from face on. 

 

Your knees are still closed here and the clubhead is on your hands. To fix what you see from face on, your body needs to rotate through the shot. If you tried to rotate from here you would either slice it or shank it. 
 

This swing is matched up in a lot of ways and if you’re playing the golf you want, you might not want to change things much. But if you’re struggling, the macro answer to to get the club trailing more so that you have incentive to rotate some amount. That’s the oversimplified way of explaining it anyway. 

 

[slytown]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

One suggestion that I think could help you is to forget about the face on angle for a while. Some of what you don’t like from the face on is because of things that are happening dtl.
 

Some of what these teachers are trying to fix  in your swing are effects, and in some cases 2d illusions. It sounds like you are learning to look for 2d club positions but below is an example of something that some would say is good positionally but it’s exactly what is causing the things you were told are bad from face on. 

 

Your knees are still closed here and the clubhead is on your hands. To fix what you see from face on, your body needs to rotate through the shot. If you tried to rotate from here you would either slice it or shank it. 
 

This swing is matched up in a lot of ways and if you’re playing the golf you want, you might not want to change things much. But if you’re struggling, the macro answer to to get the club trailing more so that you have incentive to rotate some amount. That’s the oversimplified way of explaining it anyway. 

 

 

Right? Like, most players can't dream of getting in that position, even at a young age.

 

Your hips could me more open here, but I wouldn't worry about it. If you are having contact issues, work on rotating more. It sounds like you have misses because you square the face only with your hands and arms. Work on chest and shoulder rotation in the downswing. The downswing sequence is composed of three things: lateral movement, release/cast, and rotation. Seems to me like you have two of the three. Just work on the rotation part. I wouldn't worry about swinging overthetop. Just try turning your shoulders more in the downswing.

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, slytown said:

I wouldn't worry about swinging overthetop. Just try turning your shoulders more in the downswing.

The big thing is that the club has to be shallower coming in or he will shank it trying to do that. 

[slytown]

2 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

The big thing is that the club has to be shallower coming in or he will shank it trying to do that. 

 

He is already coming in on plane. Why would he want to be shallower? That will cause him to need to flip it. Players like him that know how to release on plane don't need to get more shallow. They need to add more rotation.

 

@moerkb Check out this video. It explains really well why more shaft lean is bad.

 

 

[MPStrat]

Just now, slytown said:

 

He is already coming in on plane. Why would he want to be shallower? That will cause him to need to flip it. Players like him that know how to release on plane don't need to get more shallow. They need to add more rotation

What happens to a clubhead that is “on plane” when, all things being equal, rotation is added? 

 

[slytown]

5 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

What happens to a clubhead that is “on plane” when, all things being equal, rotation is added? 

 

 

Shoulder/Upper body rotation square the face, rather than hands and arms. He could slide or go vertical and square the face with hands and arms, or he could lower and rotate to square the face. But to say he needs to shallow more is gonna make things worse. The added benefit of that rotation is some shaft lean.

 

Also, if he tries to bow his wrist and shallow the club, he is gonna have to rotate HARD to get the clubhead to the ball. I don't think its realistic to ask most golfers to get super shallow and rotate super hard. It's bad for your back and hard to execute. Plus, the ball won't get airborne.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

Shoulder/Upper body rotation square the face, rather than hands and arms. 

 

This is false

 

3 minutes ago, slytown said:

But to say he needs to shallow more is gonna make things worse. 

The club has to be shallower in relation to his body so that he can rotate. It would require a much more shallow clubhead to deliver the same way he does now if he adds rotation.

 

9 minutes ago, slytown said:

Also, if he tries to bow his wrist and shallow the club, he is gonna have to rotate HARD to get the clubhead to the ball. I don't think its realistic to ask most golfers to get super shallow and rotate super hard. It's bad for your back and hard to execute. Plus, the ball won't get airborne.

I didn’t say he had to bow his wrist to shallow the club. I also didn’t say he needed to be super shallow. I said the club needs to be more shallow than it is now to encourage some amount of rotation.

 

But you didn’t answer my original question. I think you not understanding that simple concept is why we are having this conversation and it’s becoming clear I’m wasting my time.

[slytown]

7 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

This is false

 

The club has to be shallower in relation to his body so that he can rotate. It would require a much more shallow clubhead to deliver the same way he does now if he adds rotation.

 

I didn’t say he had to bow his wrist to shallow the club. I also didn’t say he needed to be super shallow. I said the club needs to be more shallow than it is now to encourage some amount of rotation.

 

But you didn’t answer my original question. I think you not understanding that simple concept is why we are having this conversation and it’s becoming clear I’m wasting my time.

 

But he already gets shallow, right?

 

Could you define shallow? Take P6 for example. Where do you think the clubhead should be?

 

Can you explain how I didn't answer your rotation question? If I'm not getting a simple concept, then you need to explain it to me. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, moerkb said:

Hello!

 

I am a new member here, but been reading (quietly) for quite a while now. Shout out to all you wonderful people who are posting here!

 

For this topic: I am casting the club and I cannot figure out why. In the video and these stills you can see, that the shaft and my lead forearm are aligned well before the ball:

 

 

 

My former teaching pro wanted me to float load in order to learn the "right timed hitting". I managed to do the float load, but it made me a hosel warrior (shanked everything) and having pain in my right wrist, besides still leaving a little bit of cast:

 

 

My current pro wants me to fload load, hold the lag and perform a "free hitting" motion at the same time. Yea, I know. In the many lessons with him I managed to do it correctly every now and then on a random shot. Trackman numbers showed a significant boost in clubhead speed (my cruising driver atm is ~85 mph and 90 mph full out, with those shots in his lessons, I managed to hit a 7-iron at 85 mph with an easy half swing...). So I know I am loosing something by casting the club, but am unable to repeat those random shots from the lessons.

 

According to the great @MonteScheinblum, the cast is not a swing fault, but there to save another (actual) swing fault: rebelliongolf.com/the-truth-about-casting-the-golf-club/ and golftipsmag.com/instruction/full-swing/the-true-secret-of-great-lag

 

I absolutely buy that, because despite the cast, the impact is not too bad: a reasonable amount of shaft lean, downward angle of attack (about 2 to 2.5° avg.), ball-first contact. It is just inconsistent and weak.

 

But I do not see any of those reasons in my swing:

- There is overswinging or too long of a backswing.
- There is no reverse pivot or tilting towards the target.

 

Maybe there is to much lateral movement of the hip? I always had that, but restricting it, did not work either:

 

Swing plane is not too bad, imho:

 

So, does anyone have any idea why I am casting?

Hopefully @MonteScheinblum will weigh in on your question.  In general, I'd run, not walk, away from anyone preaching float loading especially a combo of float loading and what appear to my very untrained eye as pretty static hips in terms of rotation through the downswing and impact.  

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

But he already gets shallow, right?

No. He is very steep in relation to the amount he rotates. This is a matchup.
 

Dynamically you can’t isolate one from the other. This is what you aren’t understanding.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by MPStrat

[cgasucks]

Wisdom from a former World #1 and 2021 British Open Champion

[cgasucks]

Wisdom from a former World #1 and 2021 British Open Champion

 

[slytown]

15 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

No. He is very steep in relation to the amount he rotates. This is a matchup.
 

Dynamically you can’t isolate one from the other. This is what you aren’t understanding.

 

 

 

We both agree he shouldn't float load, so what would you suggest he do to get more shallow and introduce rotation?

[MonteScheinblum]

I see no aesthetic issues here.  Is there a ball flight problem?

[moerkb]

Well, that escalated quickly 😉 

 

Thanks for your input and discussion!

 

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

One suggestion that I think could help you is to forget about the face on angle for a while. Some of what you don’t like from the face on is because of things that are happening dtl.
 

Some of what these teachers are trying to fix  in your swing are effects, and in some cases 2d illusions. It sounds like you are learning to look for 2d club positions but below is an example of something that some would say is good positionally but it’s exactly what is causing the things you were told are bad from face on. 

 

Your knees are still closed here and the clubhead is on your hands. To fix what you see from face on, your body needs to rotate through the shot. If you tried to rotate from here you would either slice it or shank it. 
 

This swing is matched up in a lot of ways and if you’re playing the golf you want, you might not want to change things much. But if you’re struggling, the macro answer to to get the club trailing more so that you have incentive to rotate some amount. That’s the oversimplified way of explaining it anyway. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Hopefully @MonteScheinblum will weigh in on your question.  In general, I'd run, not walk, away from anyone preaching float loading especially a combo of float loading and what appear to my very untrained eye as pretty static hips in terms of rotation through the downswing and impact.  

 

Maybe a little more background:

 

I am struggling with two things:

 

1. Vertically missing the sweet spot, i. e. thin shots, fat shots and sometimes even hitting to high on the face (what is that called?). I think main reason for this is the casting/flipping/early releease that I do. From a very flat surface like a driving range mat or a nice fairway, it is not big of a deal. But as soon as something is behind the golf ball (slope, grass, ...) I struggle to make good contact. Hence the pronounced lateral motion - that is my "quickfix" to hit ball first, then turf. If I don't do that, it's chunky most of the time.
2. Missing clubhead speed. There is a lot of effort going on, but not quite the rewarding speed. Padraig Harrington just released a video where he demonstrates this really well around 1:20. A little exaggerated, but it feels exactly like what I am doing.

I am really good with pitches using this technique. There is a german golf teacher and book author who likes to call this "paddling" (i.e. releasing to early but still getting shaft lean; feels like dragging a paddle through water) and actually recommends it for pitches. For full shots, this is really weak.

 

As for the float loading: I already moved away from that. In fact, that's what got me here in the first place. Search for the term and it does not take long for Monte to show up and talk about what I experienced...

What it did though, was giving me the experience of more club head speed, better strike and less effort. A real whip through the ball. So I know what is possible and now search for the correct way of doing it.

 

 

What I am not trying to do:

• Getting more shaft lean. Trackman and video show that I have between 4 and 10 degrees depending on club, shot and human error. Imho it is just fine.
• Getting more (or maximum) amount of lag. I don't try to maximize it, but something makes me loose it just too early.

Hope that clears things up.

 

As I understand it, the consesus from you guys is to get more rotation going on. And then maybe (or maybe not) work on shallowing if I am getting off plane...?

Edited September 13, 2023 by moerkb

[slytown]

25 minutes ago, moerkb said:

Well, that escalated quickly 😉 

 

Thanks for your input and discussion!

 

 

 

Maybe a little more background:

 

I am struggling with two things:

 

1. Vertically missing the sweet spot, i. e. thin shots, fat shots and sometimes even hitting to high on the face (what is that called?). I think main reason for this is the casting/flipping/early releease that I do. From a very flat surface like a driving range mat or a nice fairway, it is not big of a deal. But as soon as something is behind the golf ball (slope, grass, ...) I struggle to make good contact. Hence the pronounced lateral motion - that is my "quickfix" to hit ball first, then turf. If I don't do that, it's chunky most of the time.
2. Missing clubhead speed. There is a lot of effort going on, but not quite the rewarding speed. Padraig Harrington just released a video where he demonstrates this really well around 1:20. A little exaggerated, but it feels exactly like what I am doing.

I am really good with pitches using this technique. There is a german golf teacher and book author who likes to call this "paddling" (i.e. releasing to early but still getting shaft lean; feels like dragging a paddle through water) and actually recommends it for pitches. For full shots, this is really weak.

 

As for the float loading: I already moved away from that. In fact, that's what got me here in the first place. Search for the term and it does not take long for Monte to show up and talk about what I experienced...

What it did though, was giving me the experience of more club head speed, better strike and less effort. A real whip through the ball. So I know what is possible and now search for the correct way of doing it.

 

 

What I am not trying to do:

• Getting more shaft lean. Trackman and video show that I have between 4 and 10 degrees depending on club, shot and human error. Imho it is just fine.
• Getting more (or maximum) amount of lag. I don't try to maximize it, but something makes me loose it just too early.

Hope that clears things up.

 

As I understand it, the consensus from you guys is to get more rotation going on. And then maybe (or maybe not) work on shallowing if I am getting off plane...?

 

If you are having contact issues, its because you are release well, but lack rotation. Rotation will square the clubface better for you and add some shaft lean/compression. The clubhead speed thing is probably just poor contact. I would simply have you rotate more in the downswing. Don't be afraid to turn those shoulders A LOT. You have good backswing rotation. Just try to do the same thing in the downswing.

 

I had a similar issue. I was taught by old school guys like Curt Schnell (Hall of Fame instructor in Iowa.) It was a more linear swing with lots of timing for the hands. However, I've worked a lot on a more rounded, flatter swing, and its much more consistent.

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

We both agree he shouldn't float load, so what would you suggest he do to get more shallow and introduce rotation?

I don’t always like to give specific instruction on a message board. This is one of those cases. If some want to do that, that’s ok. What I think is most valuable is pointing someone in the right direction so that they can start thinking productively instead of focusing on the wrong things.
 

Not intending to sound overly critical, but the op is kind of slapping at the ball with his arms. This is a pattern that can work in some situations and depending on the individual it might not be worth diving down the rabbit hole and potentially getting lost. I will say, from the little bit we can see, it looks like the OP is more than capable of improving with the right guidance. 

 

The truth is that there are many ways that might work for him to get more shallow and allow for some amount of rotation, but that’s what golf lessons and a long term relationship with a good instructor are for. In this case it isn’t do x and you’re fixed. I could list any number of shallowing pieces. But there are important dynamics at work and there is too much we don’t know and can’t know on a message board. 

[MPStrat]

34 minutes ago, moerkb said:

As I understand it, the consesus from you guys is to get more rotation going on. And then maybe (or maybe not) work on shallowing if I am getting off plane...?

I would say kind of the opposite: The goal is to do the things that incentivize rotation. 
 

“Rotate more” probably isn’t going to work very well.

[slytown]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I don’t always like to give specific instruction on a message board. This is one of those cases. If some want to do that, that’s ok. What I think is most valuable is pointing someone in the right direction so that they can start thinking productively instead of focusing on the wrong things.
 

Not intending to sound overly critical, but the op is kind of slapping at the ball with his arms. This is a pattern that can work in some situations and depending on the individual it might not be worth diving down the rabbit hole and potentially getting lost. I will say, from the little bit we can see, it looks like the OP is more than capable of improving with the right guidance. 

 

The truth is that there are many ways that might work for him to get more shallow and allow for some amount of rotation, but that’s what golf lessons and a long term relationship with a good instructor are for. In this case it isn’t do x and you’re fixed. I could list any number of shallowing pieces. But there are important dynamics at work and there is too much we don’t know and can’t know on a message board. 

 

Why not give him specific instruction? It's what he came here for. The coaches he had in-person sure were not helpful. If he wants a new instructor, I would say just give Monte ur money.

[moerkb]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I would say kind of the opposite: The goal is to do the things that incentivize rotation. 
 

“Rotate more” probably isn’t going to work very well.

 

Ok, I understand your point and totally see that specific instruction on a message board can be difficult. 

But all I hope for on this board is some input and ideas. 

 

So when you talk about "things that incentivize rotation" - what do you have in mind, specifically? 

[moerkb]

23 minutes ago, slytown said:

The clubhead speed thing is probably just poor contact.

 

No, I know this for sure. There is launch monitor data from a longer period of time and it plateaued all the time. With working on the release with the pro, there were shots where "it just flew" and there was an instant boost of 10-15 mph. That's why I'm convinced I'm leaving something behind with that swing...

[slytown]

8 minutes ago, moerkb said:

 

No, I know this for sure. There is launch monitor data from a longer period of time and it plateaued all the time. With working on the release with the pro, there were shots where "it just flew" and there was an instant boost of 10-15 mph. That's why I'm convinced I'm leaving something behind with that swing...

 

Correct. Hitting high and low on the face will drop speed.

 

If you want a drill for feeling more rotation, I like the 9 to 3 drill. If you had a poor backswing position, this drill might make you swing over the top, but you have a good backswing.