I need some help..

[clemsontiger1]

I am not much of a tech guy when it comes to clubs, and I am hoping I could get some explanations as to something that happened today. I have really been struggling with my irons, hitting them a little too low. The shafts in me P790s is PX 5.5, and my 7i swing speed is about 84 mph. A friend of mine has a set of Mizunos MP20 HMBswith C Taper 130x shafts in it. I hit his clubs a few times, and I swear I hit his 4i with those shafts higher than I hit my 7i. Why would I hit a heavier and much stiffer shaft higher (and further)? I hit a few other clubs other than the 4i (was a practice round for a member guest), and I hit every club of his significantly higher than mine. I just cannot figure it out. Can someone explain to me why, and should I consider switching out the shafts in mine despite that not really matching my swing speed? 

[Jeff58]

First, his 7 iron has 32 degrees of loft, yours has 30.5. At least “club to club”, You should hit his higher, and with more spin, all else being equal.

As to shafts, your PX may not be optimal, but don’t conclude that heavier/stiffer is generically better.

Why can lighter shafts result in greater distance? The lighter weight can result in higher club head speed purely due to weight reduction.

 

Why can lighter shafts result in higher ball flight for the same launch angle? Higher ball speed creates greater spin that produces more lift. The ball will also spend more time in the launch (upward) phase.

 

Why can more flexible shafts create higher club head speeds or launch angles? During the down swing, the shaft will first deflect, then rebound. This rebound is occurring at impact, and its velocity is effectively added to the shaft speed. If the “zero point” of rebound isn’t at impact, it will also change your launch angle.

 

Why doesn’t all the stuff above work all the time? The somewhat obvious answer is that all the potential time/space/velocity variables aren’t optimal. The other situation that happens frequently is that a player is only accelerating the club over a limited range of time during the down stroke. The heavier club delays the point of maximum velocity, while the lighter one can be either “coasting” or decelerating at impact.

[clemsontiger1]

16 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

First, his 7 iron has 32 degrees of loft, yours has 30.5. At least “club to club”, You should hit his higher, and with more spin, all else being equal.

As to shafts, your PX may not be optimal, but don’t conclude that heavier/stiffer is generically better.

Why can lighter shafts result in greater distance? The lighter weight can result in higher club head speed purely due to weight reduction.

 

Why can lighter shafts result in higher ball flight for the same launch angle? Higher ball speed creates greater spin that produces more lift. The ball will also spend more time in the launch (upward) phase.

 

Why can more flexible shafts create higher club head speeds or launch angles? During the down swing, the shaft will first deflect, then rebound. This rebound is occurring at impact, and its velocity is effectively added to the shaft speed. If the “zero point” of rebound isn’t at impact, it will also change your launch angle.

 

Why doesn’t all the stuff above work all the time? The somewhat obvious answer is that all the potential time/space/velocity variables aren’t optimal. The other situation that happens frequently is that a player is only accelerating the club over a limited range of time during the down stroke. The heavier club delays the point of maximum velocity, while the lighter one can be either “coasting” or decelerating at impact.

I hit his 4i the same height as my 7i, not a 7i vs 7i. You point is valid though.

[PJE]

There are some club builder and club fitter guys in a different forum, WRX Club Techs, who really know their stuff. Maybe post over on that forum to get some insights?

You've got plenty of swing speed for the PX 5.5 shaft. I think they recommend the 5.5 flex for 84-96 mph with a driver, not a 7 iron. Both the PX and KBS shafts are low launch and low spin. The PX shafts also seem to play stiff to stated flex    So, it's not surprising you can hit a heavy, stout, shaft like the KBS well. 

If the Mizuno clubheads have more loft than the TM clubheads and since a heavier shaft seems to fit you well, maybe it's not that weird that you hit the Mizunos higher?

Some guys just get along with a specific model shaft or their swing fits a heavier shaft. 

I think the only way to find out for sure is to go to a golf store and get on a Trackman?  Check out some numbers. 

Never mind; disregard, I misread your post. If you hit the 4 iron higher than your 7 iron, I don't know... Sorry to muddy the water. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by PJE

[Jeff58]

2 hours ago, clemsontiger1 said:

I hit his 4i the same height as my 7i, not a 7i vs 7i. You point is valid though.

Your experience isn’t that unique. The heavier/stiffer combination is likely giving you more club head feedback, which is allowing you to be more aggressive through the strike zone. 
 

Do you recall whether the other clubs felt different? One way that players having issues with converting to lighter shaft use successfully is to increase swing weight a few points. It gives you the feedback while maintaining the weight and flex that may be more appropriate. 

[Stuart_G]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:48 PM, clemsontiger1 said:

Why would I hit a heavier and much stiffer shaft higher (and further)?

 

For many shaft weight and event he stiffness feel for some can effect the swing.   It has the potential to effect any of the following: Rhythm, tempo, release timing, swing plane, face impact location and consistency, etc...    And the effect can frequently be much more influential to the results than the (typically minimal) direct contribution of the shaft to the launch/spin.     It's more common for shaft weight to have more influence with more people than stiffness.   Any easy test is to take 15 gm of lead tape and wrap it around your shaft - about 4"-6" below the bottom of the grip to test how much of what you saw might have come from the heavier shaft weight.

 

But before you blame the shaft, make sure there weren't other possible factors.   Were there any other differences that may have played a part (other than the different head model/loft)?  grip size, swing weight, and/or playing length?

 

 

[clemsontiger1]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

For many shaft weight and event he stiffness feel for some can effect the swing.   It has the potential to effect any of the following: Rhythm, tempo, release timing, swing plane, face impact location and consistency, etc...    And the effect can frequently be much more influential to the results than the (typically minimal) direct contribution of the shaft to the launch/spin.     It's more common for shaft weight to have more influence with more people than stiffness.   Any easy test is to take 15 gm of lead tape and wrap it around your shaft - about 4"-6" below the bottom of the grip to test how much of what you saw might have come from the heavier shaft weight.

 

But before you blame the shaft, make sure there weren't other possible factors.   Were there any other differences that may have played a part (other than the different head model/loft)?  grip size, swing weight, and/or playing length?

 

 

I know we both use the MCC grip in different colors, so no difference there. According to the order forms, both were made to be at D2 swingweight, which is what I have always been fit to. The only difference I can tell is my irons are 1 degree upright, and his are standard.

[Pepperturbo]

PX profile and C-Taper 130 are different, including how each reaches apex, then there is this; MP20 = 32' loft/37" length vs. P790 = 30.5 loft/36.5" length

 

For reference, some years back, a retired Pro buddy let me use his irons over a weekend while my irons were on order.  His club heads were more forgiving and his shafts were Tour Issue X100, and his grips had 10 wraps and felt like logs.  Anyway, I played a great round with his clubs, didn't think twice about the flex, and I was least 15yrs older than him, in my 60s at the time.  My normal shafts were PX 6.0 and the club heads were blades. 

 

Apex is not IMO the measure of a properly fit shaft, and some days things just click.  Ask anyone who's experienced similar, a great honeymoon using clubs that technically are not right for you or me, happens.  Oh, I am 70+ iron SS is around 83-85.

[clemsontiger1]

I am bumping this back up, just to maybe discuss more.

 

I actually have the 4i now, because he bought a new set of Mizunos, and I wanted to try it a while. It is probably the straightest club in my bag. I use it on short or tight par 4s, and I believe I have flushed just about every singe one. This weekend, I played a round with his old irons, as we were curious how I would play with the heavier shaft.

 

His 5i was an HMB set up the same, and flushed it the 2 times I hit it. Seemed higher than my normal irons, and the contact was great. It was only 2 times I hit it, but it felt and looked just like my shots with the 5i. For example, one shot was on a 188 par 3 with no wind, and pretty warm (65 degrees or so). I normally would not get my 5i there, but decided to try it. I landed the ball past the flag (front pin). I know for certain this club goes further than mine, as I have played a ton of rounds with my P790s and never got to that green with a 5i. 

 

The 6-PW clubs were tour heads, and I did not hit them as well, but they were ok. I think they looked similar height to my P790s, but it was not as much of a difference as my longer clubs. I honestly think that combination of head and shaft (HMBs and C Tapers) just does something for me and my swing.

 

I have contemplated reshafting my 5i with a C Taper shaft, and trying that to see if the shaft makes a difference, or if it is the head. I am also trying to borrow the HMB 5i to see if I see a difference on the range as well. 

[Stuart_G]

19 hours ago, clemsontiger1 said:

I have contemplated reshafting my 5i with a C Taper shaft, and trying that to see if the shaft makes a difference, or if it is the head. I am also trying to borrow the HMB 5i to see if I see a difference on the range as well. 

 

That's a valid approach to help pin things down.