Elite golf schools video

[jomatty]

I’m starting to get a feel for this move. It is a very different first move then what I’ve done previously which is what led me to post about it to get others thoughts.  For it to feel good to me I have to have a much more active (active feeling anyways) pressure shift to the trail side.  I have a tendency to not shift enough so I like that it seems to encourage a shift in my swing.  Pairing that with a conscious thought towards the butt back, or butt towards the target since you are turned move, feels good.  Feels in rhythm and athletic when it is synced up well.  It is not ingrained very well yet so the misses are fairly catastrophic.  Off the planet, round destroying, left going left hooks, which are usually not part of my game (big miss is a big block right).  I’m not committed to going this route but am definitely going to keep working on it for awhile and see how it goes.

[KD1]

The face on view of the exaggerated moves are key for me

Step 0) neutral address

 

Step 1) hula hoop move, get over the trail side. Open up a little.

 

Step 2) Monte's zipper away. or sit on a chair behind your lead foot. or get on top of your lead side. I really like this visual of the reverse K, it jives with what I've seen from monte's instagrams and others (eg Jason Day analysis). Spine tilted away from the target is important for me personally.

 

 

Step 3) They describe this as opening a door hinging about the trail side. This move I'm having a hard time with. Maybe this is more counter to popular instruction than the 1st 'hula hoop' move? We want to swing the left hip away from the target rather than just away from the ball?

Edited December 27, 2023 by KD1

[11bravoveteran]

I get lost when they start talking about fascia lines and spirals, spiral engines, etc..

Edited December 27, 2023 by 11bravoveteran

[iacas]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll record both tomorrow if I can remember.

 

Here you go. First the pelvis (hips), then the chest (rib cage) (and if you can't tell which is which, you should never be allowed to post an opinion here in this sub-forum ever again 😄):

 

 

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

Step 3) They describe this as opening a door hinging about the trail side. This move I'm having a hard time with. Maybe this is more counter to popular instruction than the 1st 'hula hoop' move? We want to swing the left hip away from the target rather than just away from the ball?

 

I'm not the biggest fan of this part, personally. I have some students who can do it, or who do it almost naturally, but I generally prefer the more classic slight shift forward (like Rory's yellow line in the video above).

 

[KD1]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Here you go.

Gold. Thank you! I suppose this settles any question I had on the hula hoop move.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Gold. Thank you! I suppose this settles any question I had on the hula hoop move.

 

Sure thing. In neither case is it really > 6° at the pelvis or the chest, and the only one that's above about 3° is DJ's chest, which is ~6° (1 minute on a clock). Any way you look at it, you're they're not going very far around that hula hoop. 😄 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by iacas
struck out part

[Phabs]

3 hours ago, 11bravoveteran said:

I get lost when they start talking about fascia lines and spirals, spiral engines, etc..

Yeah the verbiage they choose to go with is a little over the top 

[jomatty]

22 hours ago, Phabs said:

Yeah the verbiage they choose to go with is a little over the top 

I get a kick out of when they talk about simplifying things and then throw some of these terms around.

[KD1]

3 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I get a kick out of when they talk about simplifying things and then throw some of these terms around.

 

They have acronyms for these terms too! So fist I gotta guess what the hell the acronym even stands for before I can even search the medical textbox for whatever the hell they're talking about lol

[JamesFoote]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:25 AM, iacas said:

 

Here you go. First the pelvis (hips), then the chest (rib cage) (and if you can't tell which is which, you should never be allowed to post an opinion here in this sub-forum ever again 😄😞

 

 

 

I'm not the biggest fan of this part, personally. I have some students who can do it, or who do it almost naturally, but I generally prefer the more classic slight shift forward (like Rory's yellow line in the video above).

 

So is this very slight opening of the chest that the initial hula hoop move brings on seen amongst a lot of the best players? I’ve not really seen any of this before.

 

I’m trying to look really closely at the Gears video you posted, but I’ve not spent any time with it before so it’s not as clear to me as it might be to others.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, JamesFoote said:

So is this very slight opening of the chest that the initial hula hoop move brings on seen amongst a lot of the best players? I’ve not really seen any of this before.

 

I’m trying to look really closely at the Gears video you posted, but I’ve not spent any time with it before so it’s not as clear to me as it might be to others.

 

I'll say two things to that:

1. It's very slight.
2. DJ and Rory might be the two biggest movers in this direction that I have.

Rory extends his left knee, for example, to push a little to his right side. DJ pushes his hands forward a bit to do a similar thing with his chest. Both are fine, and I wouldn't change a student away from it.

• DJ Hips: -2.47 to 0.42°, 2.89° total.
• DJ Chest: 3.57° to 9.63°, 6.06° total.
• DJ Shoulders: -0.8° to 4.2°, 5.0° total.
• Rory Hips: 8.35° to 9.97°, 1.42° total.
• Rory Chest: 11.89° to 14.92°, 3.03° total.
• Rory Shoulders: 0.x to 2.x (off the edge of the screen)

6° is 1 minute on a clock, and that's the most that either of them do this, and it's DJ's chest not his hips owing to his forward press.

 

So, long story short, I don't love the hula hoop move per se. I'll work with students on finding a trigger move, but my worry with the hula hoop idea is that people will make it too big. The above pair of golfers do it more than almost anyone else in my system, and they do it all of 2.89° and 1.42° with their hips.

[virtuoso]

These elite pivot movements seem to me to be what you would do if the club actually weighed as much as a sledge hammer.

 

The club only gets really heavy for a split second at the bottom, so I do believe in a good solid left foot plant to be prepared to manage that…..but all the other stuff seems overly elite.

Edited January 2 by virtuoso

[jomatty]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I'll say two things to that:

1. It's very slight.
2. DJ and Rory might be the two biggest movers in this direction that I have.

Rory extends his left knee, for example, to push a little to his right side. DJ pushes his hands forward a bit to do a similar thing with his chest. Both are fine, and I wouldn't change a student away from it.

• DJ Hips: -2.47 to 0.42°, 2.89° total.
• DJ Chest: 3.57° to 9.63°, 6.06° total.
• DJ Shoulders: -0.8° to 4.2°, 5.0° total.
• Rory Hips: 8.35° to 9.97°, 1.42° total.
• Rory Chest: 11.89° to 14.92°, 3.03° total.
• Rory Shoulders: 0.x to 2.x (off the edge of the screen)

6° is 1 minute on a clock, and that's the most that either of them do this, and it's DJ's chest not his hips owing to his forward press.

 

So, long story short, I don't love the hula hoop move per se. I'll work with students on finding a trigger move, but my worry with the hula hoop idea is that people will make it too big. The above pair of golfers do it more than almost anyone else in my system, and they do it all of 2.89° and 1.42° with their hips.

What you described is definitely the issue I was having when I first started messing with this.  I was way overdoing it and it was almost impossible not to get out of sync.  Once I dialed it way back and made the movement almost imperceptible things started to feel better.  It feels good now, although I still wonder if way too much time is being spent on incorporating this.

[JamesFoote]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I'll say two things to that:

1. It's very slight.
2. DJ and Rory might be the two biggest movers in this direction that I have.

Rory extends his left knee, for example, to push a little to his right side. DJ pushes his hands forward a bit to do a similar thing with his chest. Both are fine, and I wouldn't change a student away from it.

• DJ Hips: -2.47 to 0.42°, 2.89° total.
• DJ Chest: 3.57° to 9.63°, 6.06° total.
• DJ Shoulders: -0.8° to 4.2°, 5.0° total.
• Rory Hips: 8.35° to 9.97°, 1.42° total.
• Rory Chest: 11.89° to 14.92°, 3.03° total.
• Rory Shoulders: 0.x to 2.x (off the edge of the screen)

6° is 1 minute on a clock, and that's the most that either of them do this, and it's DJ's chest not his hips owing to his forward press.

 

So, long story short, I don't love the hula hoop move per se. I'll work with students on finding a trigger move, but my worry with the hula hoop idea is that people will make it too big. The above pair of golfers do it more than almost anyone else in my system, and they do it all of 2.89° and 1.42° with their hips.

So a forward trigger with the hands is likely to bring the same result?

 

I’m intrigued by the move. I’m someone that gets stuck on my trail side, staying there too long especially. I also move my trail hip back way too fast, getting everything out of sync. This video seems a good fit for me, but I wouldn’t try it if it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I’ll have a play with it, making sure the movement stays very small, and see how I go.

 

Appreciate the help!

[Duffer Mark]

How do the Elite videos compare to what Dan C. is teaching below in a lesson explaining that the lead knee has to get in front of the hip on the downswing? 

 

[Jaxtiger]

3 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

How do the Elite videos compare to what Dan C. is teaching below in a lesson explaining that the lead knee has to get in front of the hip on the downswing? 

 

It's quite similar. However, the point isn't that the lead knee is 'in front of the lead hip' but rather the lead hip gets into external rotation sooner to allow for greater range of motion of the pelvis rotating open coming down. Like Dan said in the video, when that lead knee doesn't get around soon enough there is a more restricted ROM to the lead hip. 

[Duffer Mark]

@Jaxtiger, I was thinking that Dan is encouraging not to turn the left knee in too much combined with sliding the hips left. This seems in contrast to Elite Golf (see screenshot in step 2 above) where they seem to encourage what Dan says not to do. 
 

I planned to note that originally but ran out of time. 

[MK7Golf21]

Do you really want the knee joint taking all that extra pressure of turning out on the downswing over and over? Seems you have to really exaggerate it as well. I’m not for sure, just asking really.

[Geralous]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:14 PM, 11bravoveteran said:

I get lost when they start talking about fascia lines and spirals, spiral engines, etc..

 

The Fascia being so elastic that is

 the source of power/torque is a misnomer.

Sure there is fascia present but its coiling muscles around the skeletal structure ie around bones via ligaments and tendons is what produces produce’s torque.

 

They’ve spoken to a medic and misinterpreted or made more of what the fascia does. 
 

it doesn’t help when people are always looking for a secret or new ways to describe what is obvious. For me it detracts from their otherwise great golf mechanics knowledge.
 

 

 

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Do you really want the knee joint taking all that extra pressure of turning out on the downswing over and over? Seems you have to really exaggerate it as well. I’m not for sure, just asking really.

Yeah, this is really where these types of teaching ideas lose me. I’m more interested in getting good joint alignments in the hips and knees to move and rotate the torso in a “healthier” way. This is where modern teaching has missed the boat entirely….especially in the exit left hip and knee alignments. They are using the left leg as a pole vault instead of a better vertically aligned spring board.

[Duffer Mark]

10 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

Do you really want the knee joint taking all that extra pressure of turning out on the downswing over and over? Seems you have to really exaggerate it as well. I’m not for sure, just asking really.

 

This was my thought also after seeing the Elite video which is why I thought of Dan's lesson. The Elite video has the knee pointed inward with pressure/weight outside of it with the expectation to push up to get the hips open, weight back, etc. This does not seem healthy for the lead knee. (Reminds me of protecting the knees while squatting where you want the knees to follow the toe line which is pointed at a slight angle.) 

What Dan describes in the lesson seems healthier for the lead knee. Yet, getting the knee outside the hip with any kind of speed/power doesn't seem easy.

[MK7Golf21]

38 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

 

This was my thought also after seeing the Elite video which is why I thought of Dan's lesson. The Elite video has the knee pointed inward with pressure/weight outside of it with the expectation to push up to get the hips open, weight back, etc. This does not seem healthy for the lead knee. (Reminds me of protecting the knees while squatting where you want the knees to follow the toe line which is pointed at a slight angle.) 

What Dan describes in the lesson seems healthier for the lead knee. Yet, getting the knee outside the hip with any kind of speed/power doesn't seem easy.

 

To me I'm ok with the lead knee coming in a little on backswing, that is natural and takes some pressure off the lower back with the twisting. Your lead hip is also turning in with the knee so less pressure on it.

 

More concerned with the downswing piece of the Dan lesson, opening the hips by leading with the left knee for right handed golfer. You are putting all that torque into your lead knee joint. You have to really exaggerate it as well to even pull it off.  

[KD1]

Elite Golf Schools take on lower body rotation dynamics, they touch on health/injury.

 

 

I hear from time to time that baseball pitchers make better golfers than baseball hitters. In the video above they liken the movements to a pitcher's windup

 

Edited January 3 by KD1
I don't spell gud

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Duffer Mark said:

push up to get the hips open

 

I think it's tangential so I'll be brief, but I find that "push" to be closer to horizontal than "up" (vertical). Of course there's going to be some up - you're standing on the ground - but I think of it and teach it most often as "back" away from the ball.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, KD1 said:

I always here that baseball pitchers make better golfers than baseball hitters. In the video above they liken the movements to a pitcher's windup

 

There are SO many levels to that, I generally just hate analogies like that. Baseball hitters are also used to hitting the ball with what would be the back of the hosel, too, if you consider where they make contact (inline with the shaft, not offset) and with their hands often 90° to that of a golfer's at impact, and with their weight still on their back foot (especially in the modern "home run or strikeout" game).

[KD1]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Baseball hitters are also used to hitting the ball with ... their weight still on their back foot (especially in the modern "home run or strikeout" game).

 

But this is kind of what I keyed in on with the videos linked above, deGrom, and the elite golf school (EGS) guys surely aren't hanging back on their back foot.

 

I see what you're saying, gotta be careful with those analogies.

 

Side note: I'm going to start calling elite golf school guys EGS. too much typing...

Edited January 3 by KD1

[Duffer Mark]

50 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

To me I'm ok with the lead knee coming in a little on backswing, that is natural and takes some pressure off the lower back with the twisting. Your lead hip is also turning in with the knee so less pressure on it.

 

More concerned with the downswing piece of the Dan lesson, opening the hips by leading with the left knee for right handed golfer. You are putting all that torque into your lead knee joint. You have to really exaggerate it as well to even pull it off.  

I see your point and agree. I don’t find either position too knee friendly. I’ll take a look at the video @KD1 posted above. 

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

Elite Golf Schools take on lower body rotation dynamics, they touch on health/injury.

 

 

 

 

yeah, that definitely seems healthier way to move IMO and is more achievable for golfers.

[naval2006]

I love it when they teach to play golf with your hips. There are different ways to have a good swing, but they all imply proper and active hip action.  

[virtuoso]

53 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

I love it when they teach to play golf with your hips. There are different ways to have a good swing, but they all imply proper and active hip action.  

I've been told that once you’ve nailed the basics of arm structure and club face awareness, the rest isn’t really that hard.