England: Player in Stableford competition skips holes without teeing off - Is that a DQ?

[ParHunter]

Hi

 

We had the case of a player stopping to play after hole 5, not teeing off on 6 and 7, making a birdie on 8 and then not playing again (even putting his bag into his car after 9) but he continued to walk around to score his playing partner. 
He put his card in with NS for all the holes that he didn't play. 

 

We were discussing in the committee whether this is a DQ or not.

I have found this old discussion 

which would indicate it is a DQ but the rules have changed since.

 

I am basing the DQ  on:

 

• 3.3c Failure to Hole Out
  • Stableford is still a Stroke play competition Rules 21.1 further clarifies what this means for Stableford.
• 6.1a When a Hole Starts - If a player doesn't start a hole he cannot finish it and would then be in violation of 3.3c?

 

What is your understanding? 

Edited March 12 by ParHunter

[Mr. Bean]

In Stableford a player gets zero points for not finishing a hole. Thus it makes no difference whether that player has started that hole or not. At least that is how I see this as anything else would be nitpicking and against the entire idea of Stableford format, IMO.

 

Putting this in other words. If a player has no score for a specific hole in Stableford what would be their score for that hole?

 

 

Edited March 12 by Mr. Bean

[ParHunter]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

In Stableford a player gets zero points for not finishing a hole. Thus it makes no difference whether that player has started that hole or not. At least that is how I see this as anything else would be nitpicking and against the entire idea of Stableford format, IMO.

 

Putting this in other words. If a player has no score for a specific hole in Stableford what would be their score for that hole?

 

 

The R&A has ruled before that this is a DQ (see referenced thread) but that was before the big rule change a few years ago. But I doubt they have changed their mind on this.

[ParHunter]

I think I have found the rule:

 

5.7a

When Players May or Must Stop Play

During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases:

• Suspension by Committee. All players must stop play if the Committee suspends play (see Rule 5.7b).
• Stopping Play by Agreement in Match Play. Players in a match may agree to stop play for any reason, except if doing so delays the competition. If they agree to stop play and then one player wants to resume play, the agreement has ended and the other player must resume play.
• Individual Player Stopping Play Because of Lightning. A player may stop play if they reasonably believe there is danger from lightning, but must report to the Committee as soon as possible.

Leaving the course is not, by itself, stopping play. A player’s delay of play is covered by Rule 5.6a, not by this Rule.If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

[Newby]

The Mapping Summary re 32.1/2 says Rules 21.1b(1) applies.

It includes the words:- A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

[ParHunter]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

The Mapping Summary re 32.1/2 says Rules 21.1b(1) applies.

It includes the words:- A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

I guess 5.7a is quite clear here. The player stopped play for no valid reason - DQ

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

I guess 5.7a is quite clear here. The player stopped play for no valid reason - DQ

 

I am pretty sure this is not a 5.7 situation.

 

5.7 would be someone saying "I think the weather is too bad, I'm going to stop for now" when the Committee hasn't stopped play, or similar things.

 

Stableford is a bit different because the player can take no points. The rules aren't going to make a guy hit a putt from the teeing area and pick up his ball.

 

 

No score returned earns zero points.

 

Other parts of that rule say:

 

A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points.

 

• If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in zero points being awarded.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, ParHunter said:

I guess 5.7a is quite clear here. The player stopped play for no valid reason - DQ

 

Did you actually look up and read the rule Newby posted ?

Rule 21 - Other Forms of Individual Stroke Play and Match Play

 

21.1 Stableford

 

The Rules for stroke play in Rules 1-20 apply, as modified by these specific Rules. Rule 21.1 is written for:

 

b. Scoring in Stableford

 

A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

 

To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points.

 

The hole is completed when the player holes out, chooses not to do so or when their score will result in zero points.

 

Edited March 12 by nsxguy

[st1800e]

Does being more than 5 minutes late for your tee time in a stableford competition result in a DQ or can you just catch up at the second tee and take no points for the first hole? 

[nsxguy]

47 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Does being more than 5 minutes late for your tee time in a stableford competition result in a DQ or can you just catch up at the second tee and take no points for the first hole? 

 

Read the post above yours.

 

Also,

 

c. Penalties in Stableford

All penalties that apply in stroke play apply in Stableford, except that a player who breaches any of these five Rules is not disqualified but gets zero points for the hole where the breach happened:

• Failure to hole out under Rule 3.3c,

• Failure to correct mistake of playing from outside the teeing area in starting a hole (see Rule 6.1b(2)),

• Failure to correct mistake of playing a wrong ball (see Rule 6.3c), 

• Failure to correct mistake of playing from a wrong place when there is a serious breach (see Rule 14.7b), or

• Failure to correct mistake of making a stroke in the wrong order (see Rule 22.3).

If the player breaches any other Rule with a penalty of disqualification, the player is disqualified.

[st1800e]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Read the post above yours.

I did, wasn’t sure if “fails to hole out “ included fails to start/tee off the hole.  

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

If the player breaches any other Rule with a penalty of disqualification, the player is disqualified.

That settles it, thanks.  

[ParHunter]

I still believe 5.7a is the correct rule here:

 

During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases: ...

 

 

If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

 

I think putting his golf clubs in his car after 9 holes does qualify as stopping a round!

[ParHunter]

4 hours ago, st1800e said:

Does being more than 5 minutes late for your tee time in a stableford competition result in a DQ or can you just catch up at the second tee and take no points for the first hole? 

5.3a

5.3a When to Start Round

A player’s round starts when the player makes a stroke to start their first hole (see Rule 6.1a).The player must start at (and not before) their starting time:

• This means that the player must be ready to play at the starting time and starting point set by the Committee.
• A starting time set by the Committee is treated as an exact time (for example, 9 am means 9:00:00 am, not any time until 9:01 am).

If the starting time is delayed for any reason (such as weather, slow play of other groups or the need for a ruling by a referee), there is no breach of this Rule if the player is present and ready to play when the player’s group is able to start.Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.3a: Disqualification, except in these three cases:

• Exception 1 – Player Arrives at Starting Point, Ready to Play, No More Than Five Minutes Late: The player gets the general penalty applied to their first hole.
• Exception 2 – Player Starts No More Than Five Minutes Early: The player gets the general penalty applied to their first hole.
• Exception 3 – Committee Decides that Exceptional Circumstances Prevented Player from Starting on Time: There is no breach of this Rule and no penalty.

[Newby]

See

Four-Ball 

Rule 23.9b(3)

 

When Breach by One Player Means Only That the Player Has No Valid Score for Hole. In all other situations where a player breaches a Rule with a penalty of disqualification, the player is not disqualified but their score on the hole where the breach happened cannot count for the side.

Edited March 13 by Newby

[ParHunter]

@Newby You've posted the discussion I've linked to in my original post and there the R&A ruled that it was DQ. 
Do you have the link to the original thread?

Why do you think the R&A would have changed their minds now?

Yes you can pick up on any hole in Stableford but in order to do that you have to start the hole first IMHO 61.a. And I think that is exactly the point they were making (I really would like to read their decision) 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, ParHunter said:

@Newby You've posted the discussion I've linked to in my original post and there the R&A ruled that it was DQ. 
Do you have the link to the original thread?

Why do you think the R&A would have changed their minds now?

Yes you can pick up on any hole in Stableford but in order to do that you have to start the hole first IMHO 61.a. And I think that is exactly the point they were making (I really would like to read their decision) 

Rule 23 makes Four Ball a special case. Rules 21 through 24 are all about when there are exceptions/variations to the other rules (1-20). That's what they are there for.

 

I don't remember what the original discussion was about, Singles or Fourball but the new Rule 23 is clearly specific to Fourball.

The old Decision 30-3a/1 (pre 2019) re an Absent Partner is mapped to 23.4 which says:

 

23.4  One or Both Partners May Represent the Side

The side may be represented by one partner during all or any part of a round. It is not necessary for both partners to be present or, if present, for both to play on each hole

Edited March 13 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I still believe 5.7a is the correct rule here:

 

During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases: ...

 

 

If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

 

I think putting his golf clubs in his car after 9 holes does qualify as stopping a round!

 

In the OP case the player did not stop play but did not play some holes and continued to walk/ride with the group. Stopping play means you STOP and possibly  leave the course, at least you leave your group.

 

Stableford is a completely different animal than normal stroke play.

 

EDIT: Would you feel differently if the player had dropped a ball on every teeing area, whiffed and picked the ball up? Outcome would be exactly the same, no score for those holes.

 

 

Edited March 13 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

I read the thread from 2014 and it seems rather clear that R&A had originally given an incorrect ruling, that is, the player should NOT be DQ'd unlike R&A answered. (or they concentrated on the foul weather and related that to stopping play, we'll never know. Later Newby got an answer pointing to D32-1/2.)

 

Here is the former Decision and it leaves absolutely no doubt whatsoever:

 

32-1/2 Omitting Holes in Bogey, Par or Stableford Competition

 

Q. In a bogey, par or Stableford competition, may a player omit, for example, two holes for the round and return a score for 16 holes?

 

A. Yes. Under Rule 32-1a, any hole for which a competitor makes no return in a bogey or par competition is regarded as a loss. Under Rule 32-1b, if no score is returned on a hole in a Stableford competition, the competitor scores no points for that hole.

 

Furthermore, as Newby mentioned earlier, the Mapping Summary Chart refers that Decision to Rule 21.1b(1) which is equally clear.

 

So, no DQ for a player who does not play all holes in Stableford.

 

Edited March 13 by Mr. Bean

[ParHunter]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

I read the thread from 2014 and it seems rather clear that R&A had originally given an incorrect ruling, that is, the player should NOT be DQ'd unlike R&A answered.

 

Here is the former Decision and it leaves absolutely no doubt whatsoever:

 

32-1/2 Omitting Holes in Bogey, Par or Stableford Competition

 

Q. In a bogey, par or Stableford competition, may a player omit, for example, two holes for the round and return a score for 16 holes?

 

A. Yes. Under Rule 32-1a, any hole for which a competitor makes no return in a bogey or par competition is regarded as a loss. Under Rule 32-1b, if no score is returned on a hole in a Stableford competition, the competitor scores no points for that hole.

 

Furthermore, as Newby mentioned earlier, the Mapping Summary Chart refers that Decision to Rule 21.1b(1) which is equally clear.

 

So, no DQ for a player who does not play all holes in Stableford.

Someone who skips a few holes, ok I can get that but this player skipped 2 holes, played 1 and then stopped playing altogether. And that is where I believe 5.7a comes into play. It is not just linked to bad weather. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

Someone who skips a few holes, ok I can get that but this player skipped 2 holes, played 1 and then stopped playing altogether. And that is where I believe 5.7a comes into play. It is not just linked to bad weather. 

 

Tha player had no score for holes 10-18 and got zero points for those holes. That is all.

[ParHunter]

Can you explain when 5.7a comes into play then. How is putting your golf clubs into your car after 9 holes not 'stop play'?

Edited March 13 by ParHunter

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

Can you explain when 5.7a comes into play then. How is putting your golf clubs into your car after 9 holes not 'stop play'?

 

I doubt there is anything I could possibly say that would change your view but I repeat:

 

1) Stableford is a completely different animal than normal stroke play.

 

2) Rule 21.1c Penalties in Stableford: All penalties that apply in stroke play apply in Stableford, except that a player who breaches any of these five Rules is not disqualified but gets zero points for the hole where the breach happened: • Failure to hole out under Rule 3.3c,

 

If I happened to be a referee in a Stableford competition I would draw the line whether the player wishes to return their score card or not. Anything else would not matter regarding Rule 5.7a.

[Mr. Bean]

One last thing.

 

If a player in normal stroke play happened to omit hole #11 and after having holed out on #10 would tee off on #12 they would be disqualified for not holing out on #11, Rule 3.3c. Thus Rule 3.3c does not require a hole to be started in oder to not hole out on that hole.

[ParHunter]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I doubt there is anything I could possibly say that would change your view but I repeat:

 

1) Stableford is a completely different animal than normal stroke play.

 

2) Rule 21.1c Penalties in Stableford: All penalties that apply in stroke play apply in Stableford, except that a player who breaches any of these five Rules is not disqualified but gets zero points for the hole where the breach happened: • Failure to hole out under Rule 3.3c,

 

If I happened to be a referee in a Stableford competition I would draw the line whether the player wishes to return their score card or not. Anything else would not matter regarding Rule 5.7a.

While I agree that skipping holes would not be a DQ stopping the round is different though. Another issue is that he submitted NS for those holes while the marker marked it as NR. 

I believe a player cannot simply mark a hole NS because he doesn't feel like playing it. He would need to mark it as NR in that case. Do you agree with that?

[ParHunter]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

One last thing.

 

If a player in normal stroke play happened to omit hole #11 and after having holed out on #10 would tee off on #12 they would be disqualified for not holing out on #11, Rule 3.3c. Thus Rule 3.3c does not require a hole to be started in oder to not hole out on that hole.

Yes in normal Stroke play the situation is quite clear. It would be a DQ. Stableford muddies the water a bit as it is permissible to pick up.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

While I agree that skipping holes would not be a DQ stopping the round is different though. Another issue is that he submitted NS for those holes while the marker marked it as NR. 

I believe a player cannot simply mark a hole NS because he doesn't feel like playing it. He would need to mark it as NR in that case. Do you agree with that?

 

What is NS and NR?

[ParHunter]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What is NS and NR?

NS means Not Started, you record that if e.g. a hole is closed and you can not play it. But this is defined by the Committee and not a player.

NR is No Return. That means he either didn't score enough points (0) or picked up on the hole.

 

NS is scored as a net par (?) and NR is scored as a net double bogey (for handicap purposes not for the actual competition)

I think these terms are specific to R&A (or England Golf?)

Edited March 13 by ParHunter

[antip]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

One last thing.

 

If a player in normal stroke play happened to omit hole #11 and after having holed out on #10 would tee off on #12 they would be disqualified for not holing out on #11, Rule 3.3c. Thus Rule 3.3c does not require a hole to be started in oder to not hole out on that hole.

That's not a 3.3c issue, but a 6.1b(2) DQ as soon as the player hits from the 12th.
 

[Newby]

27 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

NS means Not Started, you record that if e.g. a hole is closed and you can not play it. But this is defined by the Committee and not a player.

NR is No Return. That means he either didn't score enough points (0) or picked up on the hole.

 

NS is scored as a net par (?) and NR is scored as a net double bogey (for handicap purposes not for the actual competition)

I think these terms are specific to R&A (or England Golf?)

They are specific to the software in use. Different ISVs (Independent Software Vendors (ie in the UK) and other software suppliers around the world use different conventions to indicate 'not started' and 'not completed/finished'. But these are for scores being entered for WHS purposes only. They have nothing to do with the Rules of Golf. Of course 4BBB scores are not yet recognised in the UK for WHS purposes and only recently in the USA.

 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, ParHunter said:

NS means Not Started, you record that if e.g. a hole is closed and you can not play it. But this is defined by the Committee and not a player.

 

It is a WHS term. It does not specify what conditions apply to it's use.