England: Player in Stableford competition skips holes without teeing off - Is that a DQ?

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I still believe 5.7a is the correct rule here:

 

During a round, a player must not stop play except in these cases: ...

 

 

If a player stops play for any reason not allowed under this Rule or fails to report to the Committee when required to do so, the player is disqualified.

 

I think putting his golf clubs in his car after 9 holes does qualify as stopping a round!

 

I am not sure what is confusing you here.

 

Rule 21 CLEARLY says its provisions override rules 1-20 and specifically addresses YOUR issue.

 

21.1(b) "A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

 

"To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points."

 

 

How can you still think 5.7 applies ?

 

 

[ParHunter]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I am not sure what is confusing you here.

 

Rule 21 CLEARLY says its provisions override rules 1-20 and specifically addresses YOUR issue.

 

21.1(b) "A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

 

"To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points."

 

 

How can you still think 5.7 applies ?

 

 

No 21.a says 

Quote

The Rules for stroke play in Rules 1-20 apply, as modified by these specific Rules

https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf/rule-21

It doesn't make all other rules obsolete. It only modifies some. The rule 3 has links to where this is modified by 21, rule 5 doesn't have that and you will not find anywhere in 21 that it overwrites 5.7

[Imp]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I am not sure what is confusing you here.

 

Rule 21 CLEARLY says its provisions override rules 1-20 and specifically addresses YOUR issue.

 

21.1(b) "A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

 

"To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points."

 

 

How can you still think 5.7 applies ?

 

 

 

 

OP, what difference would it be if the player teed off with a putter and picked up on all the holes not played? Or put the ball down, kicked it, got a penalty, and decided "ok, that's a zero"? Common sense should prevail here. He stayed for the round, walked all holes. Marked, did everything but hit the ball. Didn't leave. 0 on all holes. Not DQ. 

 

I feel you have an axe to grind. Did you lose out on a "skin" from the birdie on the hole, or it diminished the pot? 

[Imp]

While I see what you're getting at,  stopping play is generally thought as "going to resume in this position" hole when "play resumes after stopping" (not that leaving a course doesn't necessarily mean that play was stopped." 

This player didn't technically stop play. They scored every hole with the format for the round: zeros. They did not put strokes taken, because that is not a requirement. They didn't attempt to resume play. Seems everything is ok here.

 

Stableford 21.1.b(1)...

"The hole is completed when the player holes out, chooses not to do so or when their score will result in zero points."

Also, later under Stableford 21.1.b(2)... If Hole Is Completed Without Holing Out. If the player does not hole out under the Rules, the scorecard must show either no score or any score that results in zero points being awarded.

Player chose not to hole out, while at the tee box.  Soup. It really doesn't get any more clearer than that, I would hope. 😉

[ParHunter]

I think technically it does make a difference whether someone just skips a hole or whether they touch the ball with their putter on the teeing ground and pick up.

The first one does not start the hole (6.1a) while in the second case they do.

A hole starts with 6.1a and finishes with 6.5 Completing Play of a Hole

A fellow committee member brought this case up on our last committee meeting questing whether it is ok that the player won the 2s money (we put £1 each into a pot that is then divided by the players that get a 2 on any hole) and as he was the only one that got a 2 on that day he won the pot (I wouldn't have gotten anything in any case, so I don't have a vested interested).

I just think it is bad behaviour and should not be 'encouraged'. The player fell out with one of his playing partners and then simply stopped playing. It is also not the first time that he stomped off during a round.

 

He is actually a nice guy and very helpful but I still think that is the wrong way to behave and is not in the spirit of the game or the rules.

Edited March 13 by ParHunter

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I am not sure what is confusing you here.

 

Rule 21 CLEARLY says its provisions override rules 1-20 and specifically addresses YOUR issue.

 

21.1(b) "A player who does not hole out under the Rules for any reason gets zero points for the hole.

 

"To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points."

 

 

How can you still think 5.7 applies ?

 

 

 

I am afraid you are confusing things here...

 

"To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score will result in zero points."

 

This does not concern situations where a player has not commenced a hole. In other respects I agree with you.

 

P.S. I wonder how this is still going on?? The answer is clear, no DQ in Stableford for not commencing a hole to be entered onto the score card.

[Newby]

It still all comes down to this clause

 

23.4  One or Both Partners May Represent the Side

The side may be represented by one partner during all or any part of a round

 

So one partner does not need to start any or all holes

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, ParHunter said:

NS means Not Started, you record that if e.g. a hole is closed and you can not play it. But this is defined by the Committee and not a player.

NR is No Return. That means he either didn't score enough points (0) or picked up on the hole.

 

NS is scored as a net par (?) and NR is scored as a net double bogey (for handicap purposes not for the actual competition)

I think these terms are specific to R&A (or England Golf?)

 

Oh my, you are totally mixing things up...

 

Brother, this is STABLEFORD...

[ParHunter]

I am going to give up on this now but I can't believe the R&A would want rule 21 to be a 'free for all' kind of rule. 

[ParHunter]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

It still all comes down to this clause

 

23.4  One or Both Partners May Represent the Side

The side may be represented by one partner during all or any part of a round

 

So one partner does not need to start any or all holes

 

It wasn't a pairs competition. Normal Stableford

[Imp]

23 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

I think technically it does make a difference whether someone just skips a hole or whether they touch the ball with their putter on the teeing ground and pick up.

The first one does not start the hole (6.1a) while in the second case they do.

A hole starts with 6.1a and finishes with 6.5 Completing Play of a Hole

A fellow committee member brought this case up on our last committee meeting questing whether it is ok that the player won the 2s money (we put £1 each into a pot that is then divided by the players that get a 2 on any hole) and as he was the only one that got a 2 on that day he won the pot (I wouldn't have gotten anything in any case, so I don't have a vested interested).

I just think it is bad behaviour and should not be 'encouraged'. The player fell out with one of his playing partners and then simply stopped playing. It is also not the first time that he stomped off during a round.

 

He is actually a nice guy and very helpful but I still think that is the wrong way to behave and is not in the spirit of the game or the rules.

Not to pat myself on the back, but *nailed it*: Money on the hole he shot low on. Did he pay into the pot? Yes. Therefore, he's eligible for the proceeds he won fairly on the hole he played.

 

As it applies to the rules, maybe the R&A had thought "stopping play" and "resuming play" in the same section, 5.7 was really, really clear. Evidently, not. That section applies to the tournament, along with a player doing the following (clarifications)... 

 

Examples where the Committee is likely to disqualify a player under Rule 5.7a for stopping play include when:

The player walks off the course in frustration with no intent to return.

The player stops in the clubhouse after nine holes for an extended time to watch television or to have lunch when the Committee has not allowed for this.

The player takes shelter from rain for a significant amount of time.

 

The player did none of the three, AND returned a VALID scorecard for the tournament with zeros on it stuck around, scored for other player, did not leave until all players in his group finished, including himself. 

 

If I was told that I couldn't take a zero from skipingp a hole, I would take a ball. Drop it on the tee box. Kick it, (ball moved by player)  Pick it up (improper lift) and mark a zero on the card... and there's a ZERO on the card AND zero you can do about it. Or take a putter to the ball on the tee and doing the same ... "put me down for a zero." He followed the letter of the rules. He just saved the steps. Cutting to the chase.... start with a zero is the exact same thing. 

Again, common sense should prevail.

 

 

 

[ParHunter]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Oh my, you are totally mixing things up...

 

Brother, this is STABLEFORD...

Are you from the US? In the UK most competition rounds (which this one was) are played as Stableford. We are not talking about your Sunday round with mates and beer here. Stableford doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. 

And I don't think I am mixing NS and NR up here. 

[jholz]

So, from what I am reading here, and what some folks are suggesting...

 

The next time my club has a Stableford tournament, I can choose to just play some of the holes? Like, I could make up my own little mini course, choosing just the holes that I might perform well on and just taking zeros on the rest?

 

That would result in an "legitimate" score for the competition?

 

If you wanted to force every competitor to officially complete every hole, would a committee need to create a specific rule?

 

Why weren't the pros doing this a Castle Pines for all those years? 

 

 

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

Are you from the US? In the UK most competition rounds (which this one was) are played as Stableford. We are not talking about your Sunday round with mates and beer here. Stableford doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. 

And I don't think I am mixing NS and NR up here. 

However, NS and NR are not part of the Rules of golf; they are not found in the Rule book.

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, jholz said:

So, from what I am reading here, and what some folks are suggesting...

 

The next time my club has a Stableford tournament, I can choose to just play some of the holes? Like, I could make up my own little mini course, choosing just the holes that I might perform well on and just taking zeros on the rest?

 

That would result in an "legitimate" score for the competition?

 

If you wanted to force every competitor to officially complete every hole, would a committee need to create a specific rule?

 

Why weren't the pros doing this a Castle Pines for all those years? 

 

 

May have been a rhetorical question?  But who knows what conditions of the competition the PGA Tour implemented for that event?

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, ParHunter said:

Are you from the US? In the UK most competition rounds (which this one was) are played as Stableford. We are not talking about your Sunday round with mates and beer here. Stableford doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. 

And I don't think I am mixing NS and NR up here. 

Stabkeford is stableford whether it’s a Sunday round or in a competition.

 

It’s really not that hard. The golfer did nothing wrong and scored as per the rules of stableford in the rulebook.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

So, from what I am reading here, and what some folks are suggesting...

 

The next time my club has a Stableford tournament, I can choose to just play some of the holes? Like, I could make up my own little mini course, choosing just the holes that I might perform well on and just taking zeros on the rest?

 

That would result in an "legitimate" score for the competition?

 

 

 

What would you achieve by doing that?

 

Is it not the idea of a round of golf to get the best possible score?

 

Get real, dude.

[jholz]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

May have been a rhetorical question?  But who knows what conditions of the competition the PGA Tour implemented for that event?

 

Not a rhetorical question. Rather, just trying to play with the logic and implications of the suggested rule on this one. 

 

It seems that several folks are saying that under Stableford scoring, there is nothing to force a player to play all of the holes. 

 

This sounds like crazy talk and a giant can of worms to me.  

 

 

[jholz]

34 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What would you achieve by doing that?

 

Is it not the idea of a round of golf to get the best possible score?

 

Get real, dude.

 

Theoretically, I could play in a golf league on a "part-time" basis. I could just come out and play 5 holes - and still post a legitimate score. 

 

Again, this sounds like crazy talk - and I wouldn't put it past the clowns I've seen playing in golf leagues. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I am going to give up on this now but I can't believe the R&A would want rule 21 to be a 'free for all' kind of rule. 

I know the USGA has a phone number to call, you can get an immediate answer to questions like this.   Or an email address specifically for rules questions. I bet the R&A has a similar resource to use.  You clearly don't believe the answer you've received from some pretty knowledgeably folks, I suggest you go right to the top with your question.

Edited March 13 by davep043

[ParHunter]

32 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Not a rhetorical question. Rather, just trying to play with the logic and implications of the suggested rule on this one. 

 

It seems that several folks are saying that under Stableford scoring, there is nothing to force a player to play all of the holes. 

 

This sounds like crazy talk and a giant can of worms to me.  

 

 

From a Handicapping standpoint we are encouraged to come down hard on people that just walk off by applying Penalty scores.

 

Quote

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/whs/world-handicap-system-no-return-penalties/

 

Gemma Hunter, England Golf’s head of handicapping and course rating, said one of the key principles of the rules of handicapping was that players competed with the intention of trying to return their best score.

 

“As golfers, we shouldn’t just be walking off the course because we’ve had a bad day,” she explained. “We want to try and discourage that from happening but we know people do have bad holes.

 

…

“Because you’ve had enough, or want to go and watch the football, isn’t a valid reason. You’ve signed up to play 18 holes of golf and so you should complete your round.”

But that has nothing to do with the Rules of Golf just the handicapping. 

[ParHunter]

24 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I know the USGA has a phone number to call, you can get an immediate answer to questions like this.   Or an email address specifically for rules questions. I bet the R&A has a similar resource to use.  You clearly don't believe the answer you've received from some pretty knowledgeably folks, I suggest you go right to the top with your question.

That would assume they actually have resources to reply. I haven’t found anything on the R&A website. 

[davep043]

12 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

That would assume they actually have resources to reply. I haven’t found anything on the R&A website. 

I looked myself, and I'm surprised.  You can always send the question to the USGA, they ARE the same rules.  That email is [email protected]

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

 

Not a rhetorical question. Rather, just trying to play with the logic and implications of the suggested rule on this one. 

 

It seems that several folks are saying that under Stableford scoring, there is nothing to force a player to play all of the holes. 

 

This sounds like crazy talk and a giant can of worms to me.  

 

 

There isn’t. The rules allow the golfer to take a zero. It doesnt benefit the golfer unless as mentioned there a few holes the golfer played to win a prize of some

sort.

 

Hit a ball on a par 3 and lose it. Now your best chance of score is par. Miss the green on your next shot, now you best score chance is a bogey. Miss the green on the next shot or have a long putt now you are at double bogey and zero points and you haven’t even finished the hole. A zero is a zero however you get there

[Mr. Bean]

32 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

That would assume they actually have resources to reply. I haven’t found anything on the R&A website. 

 

It is unfortunate that R&A has 1% of the resources on this compared to that of USGA. So the only way is to send an email and hope for an answer. Or to trust on what some guys around here say... 😇

[iacas]

4 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I just think it is bad behaviour and should not be 'encouraged'.

 

It's not a DQ, though. Do you now understand that, and agree with what everyone has been telling you?

 

3 hours ago, jholz said:

The next time my club has a Stableford tournament, I can choose to just play some of the holes? Like, I could make up my own little mini course, choosing just the holes that I might perform well on and just taking zeros on the rest?

 

That would result in an "legitimate" score for the competition?

 

Yep, but since you can play all the holes, if you truly wanted to shoot the best score… you wouldn't just skip holes entirely and take zeroes.

[antip]

4 hours ago, ParHunter said:

I am going to give up on this now but I can't believe the R&A would want rule 21 to be a 'free for all' kind of rule. 

In your shoes, and given your Committee's interest, I think there would be benefit in you contacting the R&A using the form on their website. I think you have raised an interesting scenario that looks a lot like stopping play, so there would be benefit in having the R&A put the issue to bed with an answer. 
And should you get a response, please bring it back here.

Edited March 13 by antip
last sentence added

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, jholz said:

 

Theoretically, I could play in a golf league on a "part-time" basis. I could just come out and play 5 holes - and still post a legitimate score. 

 

Again, this sounds like crazy talk - and I wouldn't put it past the clowns I've seen playing in golf leagues. 

 

I don't understand your issues.

 

If one plays less than 7 holes one couldn't post a score for handicap purposes.

 

For that same 5 hole "round", if you made 5 net pars and left the course, you'd have 10 points.

 

Even if it was a 9-hole match game do you suppose your 10 points would be enough for you to win ? And if those 10 points WERE enough to win, why shouldn't you win ? You CAN'T lose points in a Stableford.

 

Same goes for ANY skipped holes or leaving after 14 holes. Any holes not completed are "0". How often do you think you'd have enough points after the 14th to beat everybody else in the field with them all playing 18 ?

 

And for handicap purposes there are rules for posting that cover the same things.

 

What am I missing here ?

Edited March 14 by nsxguy

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't understand your issues.

 

If one plays less than 7 holes one couldn't post a score for handicap purposes.

 

For that same 5 hole "round", if you made 5 net pars and left the course, you'd have 10 points.

 

Even if it was a 9-hole match do you suppose your 10 points would be enough for you to win ? And if those 10 points WERE enough to win, why shouldn't you win ? You CAN'T lose points in a Stableford.

 

Same goes for ANY skipped holes or leaving after 14 holes. Any holes not completed are "0". How often do you think you'd have enough points after the 14th to beat everybody else in the field with them all playing 18 ?

 

And for handicap purposes there are rules for posting that cover the same things.

 

What am I missing here ?

Just being pedantic, but you combined playing a 9 hole "match" and scoring 10 points.  Stableford is a stroke play format, not match play (although I'm sure that some groups could find a way to keep a hole-by-hole score based on winning a hole by earning more points on that hole).

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Just being pedantic, but you combined playing a 9 hole "match" and scoring 10 points.  Stableford is a stroke play format, not match play (although I'm sure that some groups could find a way to keep a hole-by-hole score based on winning a hole by earning more points on that hole).

 

"match" has multiple meanings, one of which is "game"; which is the way I meant it - didn't mean match, as in "match play"

 

However, this being a golf forum, and a rules forum as well, I should have used the word "game".

 

I'll fix it.

Edited March 14 by nsxguy