Can "amateurs" by USGA/R&A definition teach for money?

[uitar9]

I have only received instruction from two instructors. One PGA certified. The other a club fitter. Both worked with my body shape, age, flexibility.

 

They didn't teach a specific swing program.

 

The fitter just gave me a few tips. Best advice ever. I bought his club fitting expertise.

 

During my 35 hours or so of training and many hours at a range, I have also been around numerous other instructors. 

 

It appears that golf training is all over the map.

 

I can't believe some of those folks call themselves professionals.

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Not the point - you use the game of golf as a source of income. Not a tough one to get?

Why are custom club fitters / builders not considered pros then?  

[Ajgaguy83]

19 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Why are custom club fitters / builders not considered pros then?  

Because they’re not teaching the game.  They’re offering services rendered for a product (clubs). 

 

No need to split hairs…….

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Why are custom club fitters / builders not considered pros then?  

 

Come now, within the confines of what he was talking about the distinction is clear, but thanks for the clarification just the same because my statement was too general if you want to go outside the context of what was being referred to. But the context is teaching and that is what I was responding to.

Edited April 24 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 The definitions of amateur and professional are not as clear as you say.   From what I read in this thread, having a lucrative money-making YouTube channel teaching golf swing does not make one a professional. 

Pretty sure what you've read is folks out vlogging aren't professionals - if they are teaching golf and monetizing it, yes, where do you see the folks holding themselves out as instructors on YT aren't considered professionals?  Could be, but would be surprising.

[LeoLeo99]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Pretty sure what you've read is folks out vlogging aren't professionals - if they are teaching golf and monetizing it, yes, where do you see the folks holding themselves out as instructors on YT aren't considered professionals?  Could be, but would be surprising.

Mr Short Game, Matt Fisher, is listed on https://www.amateurgolf.com/Players/14770/Matthew-Fisher so I assume he's an amateur.  I guess we can parse out what instruction means.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, LeoLeo99 said:

Mr Short Game, Matt Fisher, is listed on https://www.amateurgolf.com/Players/14770/Matthew-Fisher so I assume he's an amateur.  I guess we can parse out what instruction means.

 

 

 

Does he sell lessons?

[LeoLeo99]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Does he sell lessons?

No, he gives general instruction to whomever wants to watch his videos and I assume YouTube sends him a check based on his viewership.  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

No, he gives general instruction to whomever wants to watch his videos and I assume YouTube sends him a check based on his viewership.  

Then not hard to understand why he's an am. He does a lot of things on his channel including short game ideas - maybe he trends to a gray area in your mind, but it's up to the ruling bodies to make the call - I'd agree he's not disqualified from amateur events, if they end up deciding otherwise (assuming he even competes) I could see their side of it, but it's not a murky free for all out there.

 

Edit: SEE BELOW - THE EASY ANSWER IS RIGHT THERE IN WRITING. 

Edited April 24 by Hawkeye77

[iacas]

I still think it’s pretty clear.

 

 

Quote

Instruction means teaching the mechanics of swinging a golf club and hitting a golf ball. The Rules of Amateur Status do not apply to other forms of teaching or coaching (for example, physical fitness and psychological aspects of the game).

 

An amateur who accepts payment or compensation for giving instruction, including as part of salaried duties, becomes a non-amateur.

 

But, an amateur may accept payment or compensation for giving instruction in the following circumstances:

• As part of a programme that has been approved in advance by the national governing body.
• As an employee of a school, college, or camp, provided the time spent giving instruction is less than 50% of the time spent in performance of all duties as an employee.
• When the instruction is given in writing or online, and not to a specific individual or group.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Because they’re not teaching the game.  They’re offering services rendered for a product (clubs). 

 

No need to split hairs…….

You are splitting hairs not me.  Dr. Kwon can give lessons every week and is not a professional while someone who teaches golf in their spare time is?  What someone does for their day job should not determine professional golf status.  It should be based on whether or not they want to compete as an amateur and follow the prize money rules.  That is simple while the current system is splitting hairs.

 

Also as a side note every fitter that I have known gives a lot of lessons...

[Hawkeye77]

58 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Dr. Kwon can give lessons every week and is not a professional 

 

Does he compete? Is there somewhere where it has been necessary for him or someone else to publish something about whether he is considered an am for purposes of USGA rules? 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

You are splitting hairs not me.  Dr. Kwon can give lessons every week and is not a professional while someone who teaches golf in their spare time is?

As others have said, he isn’t paid for them.

 

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

It should be based on whether or not they want to compete as an amateur and follow the prize money rules. 

Ha ha ha. What?!?!

[Nels55]

28 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Does he compete? Is there somewhere where it has been necessary for him or someone else to publish something about whether he is considered an am for purposes of USGA rules? 

That is not my point.  And I believe that I have made my point enough times here so I shall endeavor to quite commenting in circles.  Not sure I can do it though...  Takes discipline same as becoming good at golf.  

[johnrobison]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm dumbfounded at the idea that so many here seem to struggle with the fact that a golf professional is deemed to be… a professional, and not an amateur.

Because there are golf playing professionals and golf industry professionals.

 

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Write a new rule if you think you can write a clearer one that makes more sense.

Why can it not be as clear and simple as whether one makes money from playing golf? Leave the teaching and whatever else out.

 

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Failing that… re-read @Hawkeye77's replies to you. 😄 

Don't need to. My reading comprehension is pretty good and my questions still stand.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

That is not my point.  And I believe that I have made my point enough times here so I shall endeavor to quite commenting in circles.  Not sure I can do it though...  Takes discipline same as becoming good at golf.  

Your point has been shown to not only be flawed but wrong.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

That is not my point.  And I believe that I have made my point enough times here so I shall endeavor to quite commenting in circles.  Not sure I can do it though...  Takes discipline same as becoming good at golf.  

Just imagine hitting 100 yard 7 irons (or do it, which I am right now, lol) - makes all right with the world. 

[MBAndrews21]

Does any1 have any wrist c0ck drills? I want a 90 degree wrist turn.