MLR E-5 Question - What to do if ball lost "in the fairway"?

[betarhoalphadelta]

Ok, I know this is going to be a weird one. It came up in a round a couple years ago but as I've learned the rules more, I would like to know the actual interpretation.

 

17th hole at a local course. Blind landing area, but it's a wide fairway. To the left of the fairway is light rough, i.e. "can see your ball from 50 yards" rough, and then a steep upward slope that will keep any ball headed left from climbing. To the right of the fairway is a "river", which during most of the year, including this round, is just a dry stream bed with pea gravel. Again, you should EASILY be able to see a ball in the gravel, especially since I play a bright yellow ball. 

 

I hit a gorgeous baby draw off the tee starting just right of center and returning to center. Get out there after everyone has hit and... No ball. Not in the fairway. Not in the left rough. Not in the gravel. Can't see literally anything in the fairway it would have caromed off to go there anyway. We look and look, and it's a lost ball. I personally think that it was either moved by an outside influence or entered a dimensional rift into an alternate universe, but as you can imagine, I don't have KVC of either. So it's lost. 

 

But literally myself and my 3 playing partners can't imagine that it was lost anywhere BUT the fairway. 

 

So what is my reference point, and what is my MLR E-5 relief area? 

 

My thought: ball was drawing, so I'm going to select a reference point slightly left of center in the fairway. I draw a line from there to the closest fairway edge, which is the left edge. My relief area is anywhere behind that line and within the cone (back from the hole) described by a point two club lengths right of the reference point (in the fairway) and two club lengths into the left rough. 

 

So my drop area would include a LOT of possible places within the fairway. I could easily choose the best lie and angle to the green within a pretty big swath of fairway grass.

 

Is that correct?

[nsxguy]

18 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Ok, I know this is going to be a weird one. It came up in a round a couple years ago but as I've learned the rules more, I would like to know the actual interpretation.

 

17th hole at a local course. Blind landing area, but it's a wide fairway. To the left of the fairway is light rough, i.e. "can see your ball from 50 yards" rough, and then a steep upward slope that will keep any ball headed left from climbing. To the right of the fairway is a "river", which during most of the year, including this round, is just a dry stream bed with pea gravel. Again, you should EASILY be able to see a ball in the gravel, especially since I play a bright yellow ball. 

 

I hit a gorgeous baby draw off the tee starting just right of center and returning to center. Get out there after everyone has hit and... No ball. Not in the fairway. Not in the left rough. Not in the gravel. Can't see literally anything in the fairway it would have caromed off to go there anyway. We look and look, and it's a lost ball. I personally think that it was either moved by an outside influence or entered a dimensional rift into an alternate universe, but as you can imagine, I don't have KVC of either. So it's lost. 

 

But literally myself and my 3 playing partners can't imagine that it was lost anywhere BUT the fairway. 

 

So what is my reference point, and what is my MLR E-5 relief area? 

 

My thought: ball was drawing, so I'm going to select a reference point slightly left of center in the fairway. I draw a line from there to the closest fairway edge, which is the left edge. My relief area is anywhere behind that line and within the cone (back from the hole) described by a point two club lengths right of the reference point (in the fairway) and two club lengths into the left rough. 

 

So my drop area would include a LOT of possible places within the fairway. I could easily choose the best lie and angle to the green within a pretty big swath of fairway grass.

 

Is that correct?

 

Seems right to me based on the letter of the law,,,,,,,, even though, implicit in the E-5 "Lost ball" section, is the ball reference point should be in the rough/off the fairway. 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Another possible interpretation:

 

Quote

 

Two Estimated Reference Points:

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have:

• Come to rest on the course, or

• Last crossed the edge of the course boundary to go out of bounds.

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any part of the general area  cut to fairway height or less.

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

• A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and

• A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line).

 

 

In this case, wouldn't the "ball reference point" and the "fairway reference point" be coincident (the same physical spot)? 

 

If the ball reference point is in the fairway, the point of fairway of the hole nearest to the ball reference point is the ball reference point?

 

So the relief area would actually be the cone described by the area within the lines drawn backwards two club lengths on either side of the ball reference point, no nearer the hole. This would be a MUCH more narrow relief area. 

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Another possible interpretation:

 

 

In this case, wouldn't the "ball reference point" and the "fairway reference point" be coincident (the same physical spot)? 

 

If the ball reference point is in the fairway, the point of fairway of the hole nearest to the ball reference point is the ball reference point?

 

So the relief area would actually be the cone described by the area within the lines drawn backwards two club lengths on either side of the ball reference point, no nearer the hole. 

Yes

 

Estimated Reference Point:

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have come to rest on the course

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

Yes

 

 

Thank you. However I can't tell exactly how far you're going with agreement here, as you only quote the reference point answer. 

 

Does that mean you also agree with my relief area? Two club lengths to either side of the ball reference point and draw the cone back from the hole through those two spots? 

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Thank you. However I can't tell exactly how far you're going with agreement here, as you only quote the reference point answer. 

 

Does that mean you also agree with my relief area? Two club lengths to either side of the ball reference point and draw the cone back from the hole through those two spots? 

Why a cone and not a semicircle?

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, Newby said:

Why a cone and not a semicircle?

 

He's including the hole as the starting point.

[nsxguy]

18 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Thank you. However I can't tell exactly how far you're going with agreement here, as you only quote the reference point answer. 

 

Does that mean you also agree with my relief area? Two club lengths to either side of the ball reference point and draw the cone back from the hole through those two spots? 

 

Doesn't E-5 say 2CLs to both sides of the 2 points ?

 

Aren't 2 CLs available in both of your question/examples ?

[rogolf]

I might suggest something different - that the ball is not lost on the fairway but is lost in the left rough.  Proceed according to E-5.

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I might suggest something different - that the ball is not lost on the fairway but is lost in the left rough.  Proceed according to E-5.

 

This is what, according to the OP, I would have suggested had the OP not be so clear about it being lost in the fairway (even though the fairway was out of sight).

 

Only way I can imagine it (clearly) lost in the fairway would be if a large part of the fairway would result in a plugged/buried ball.

 

 

[Newby]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I might suggest something different - that the ball is not lost on the fairway but is lost in the left rough.  Proceed according to E-5.

I took that the player 'estimated' where the ball came to rest on the course.

[Newby]

38 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

He's including the hole as the starting point.

The relief area is not in that cone but in the 'nominal' semicircle further away

Edited July 10 by Newby

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

The drop area is not in that cone but in the 'nominal' semicircle further away

 

Agreed. I was merely suggesting what he likely meant.

 

I'm relatively sure he merely misspoke - but knows where the drop has to be.

[Newby]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Agreed. I was merely suggesting what he likely meant.

 

I'm relatively sure he merely misspoke - but knows where the drop has to be.

I think you're right.

[betarhoalphadelta]

58 minutes ago, Newby said:

Why a cone and not a semicircle?

 

Because the relief area extends backward indefinitely (as long as you're in the general area) from that point. If you look at area "C" in the below right, it's basically a cone with the top cut off. 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

39 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Doesn't E-5 say 2CLs to both sides of the 2 points ?

 

Aren't 2 CLs available in both of your question/examples ?

 It does. But the question is whether the fairway reference point (assuming the ball was "lost in the fairway" which is both my hypothetical for the ruling, and what I believe happened, SOMEHOW) is actually the exact same point. So it could be two club lengths to either side of two points that are in the exact same spot, or two club lengths to either side of one point that is in the fairway and one point that is at the edge of the fairway.

 

31 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I might suggest something different - that the ball is not lost on the fairway but is lost in the left rough.  Proceed according to E-5.

 

I can say, having been there on site and having hit the ball, having knowledge of the course and the hole, that based on everything known to me (and my playing partners) the ball was likeliest to come to rest in the fairway. To estimate that it came to rest either in the left rough or the dry streambed to the right would not be basing it on any evidence available to us at the time. We're talking a 40-50 yard wide, flat fairway, with no features that I could identify that a ball would carom off. The ballflight would have nearly split the fairway perfectly. And as mentioned, neither the left rough (which was very light) nor the streambed to the right would be easy places to lose a bright yellow ball. It's not like it was thick rough that you need to be on top of the ball to spot it. It's the kind of rough that you'd see your ball in from the tee. 

 

I know it sounds fantastical--which is why I said I believe it is more likely that it was moved by an outside influence. However we didn't *SEE* one and therefore there is no KVC. I brought it up in this forum when it happened, and everyone here in the rules forum agreed that I was to proceed under lost ball rules, as there was no KVC. 

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

It does. But the question is whether the fairway reference point (assuming the ball was "lost in the fairway" which is both my hypothetical for the ruling, and what I believe happened, SOMEHOW) is actually the exact same point. So it could be two club lengths to either side of two points that are in the exact same spot, or two club lengths to either side of one point that is in the fairway and one point that is at the edge of the fairway.

 

OK, IMO with the BRP in the middle, you've got it right. Your FRP would be the edge of the rough on the left. There are your 2 points to use for your broken cone.

 

As for BOTH points being right at the edge of the rough/fairway juncture, aren't we getting a bit too far afield? Even for a Rules discussion ?

 

You don't KNOW where the ball is. So why on earth would you decide/assume, reasonable or not, it's "lost" on the very edge of the fairway/rough on the very same spot where the FRP would be ? Isn't the FRP, by definition ON the fairway ? And if so, wouldn't you SEE the ball if it was on the same spot ?

 

So while it's fair to use that spot as the FRP, it can't possibly be the BRP, can it ?

 

If the BRP, that is, where you determine the ball was lost, was right there in front of you ON the fairway, it wouldn't BE lost, would it ? So that can't possibly be "the" spot, can it ?

 

I can't envision that situation as possible/reasonable. YMMV

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, IMO with the BRP in the middle, you've got it right. Your FRP would be the edge of the rough on the left. There are your 2 points to use for your broken cone.

 

 

If the BRP is in the fairway, and the FRP is the point in the fairway nearest the BRP, why would it be the left edge of the fairway? The left edge of the fairway is farther from the BRP than the BRP is. I would argue they're coincident in this case. It's still "two points" but they happen to be at the exact same physical spot. 

 

So I'd argue that since the two points are coincident, you build the broken cone based on two club lengths left or right of the BRP, as it just happens to also be the FRP. 

 

Quote

 

If the BRP, that is, where you determine the ball was lost, was right there in front of you ON the fairway, it wouldn't BE lost, would it ? So that can't possibly be "the" spot, can it ?

 

I can't envision that situation as possible/reasonable. YMMV

 

 

A ball is lost when it isn't found after a 3 minute search. It doesn't matter if a squirrel took the ball away and I just don't have KVC that it was moved by an outside influence.  

 

MLR E-5 says that you base the BRP on the location that the ball is likely to be lost. Other than not finding a ball sitting pretty in the fairway, how would I deign to select a BRP that requires the ball to have been going somewhere completely different from where I observed the trajectory of the ball to be going? 

 

I've clearly looked in the place where it is likely to be lost (fairway), and in places it was unlikely to be lost (left rough / right streambed), and it wasn't there either. So why would I choose either of those as a place it is more likely to be lost than the place where the ball's last observed trajectory would have had it come to rest? Obviously if I choose the exact spot in the left rough where it is "likely to be lost", I'd find a ball right there too, right? 

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If the BRP is in the fairway, and the FRP is the point in the fairway nearest the BRP, why would it be the left edge of the fairway? The left edge of the fairway is farther from the BRP than the BRP is. I would argue they're coincident in this case. It's still "two points" but they happen to be at the exact same physical spot. 

 

So I'd argue that since the two points are coincident, you build the broken cone based on two club lengths left or right of the BRP, as it just happens to also be the FRP. 

 

 

A ball is lost when it isn't found after a 3 minute search. It doesn't matter if a squirrel took the ball away and I just don't have KVC that it was moved by an outside influence.  

 

MLR E-5 says that you base the BRP on the location that the ball is likely to be lost. Other than not finding a ball sitting pretty in the fairway, how would I deign to select a BRP that requires the ball to have been going somewhere completely different from where I observed the trajectory of the ball to be going? 

 

I've clearly looked in the place where it is likely to be lost (fairway), and in places it was unlikely to be lost (left rough / right streambed), and it wasn't there either. So why would I choose either of those as a place it is more likely to be lost than the place where the ball's last observed trajectory would have had it come to rest? Obviously if I choose the exact spot in the left rough where it is "likely to be lost", I'd find a ball right there too, right? 

 

Maybe a large dog was there right before you, pissed and made a puddle and your ball was embedded in it and you didn't see it.

 

I don't know nor care why you didn't find it in the fairway.

 

All I know is "Ball Reference Point - The point where the original ball is estimated to have come to rest on the course".

 

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

But literally myself and my 3 playing partners can't imagine that it was lost anywhere BUT the fairway. 

 

Afaics /END

[antip]

Two angles I will touch on.

 

1. How to apply E-5 to ball lost in fairway.

 

We discussed this in March 2020 and we got this input from our rules-friend Sawgrass: "The USGA informed me that the ball reference point is where you presume the ball was lost, and the fairway reference point is at the edge of the nearest short grass, add 2 cls to each side to make your cone-shaped relief area."

Mr Bean also put the question to the R&A and they confirmed the USGA advice.

 

My view is this is very pragmatic and helpful guidance that delivers a solution each time. But I also think it demonstrates clearly that the drafters of E-5 gave zero thought to it ever being applied for ball lost in fairway prior to publication in the 2019 Rules. This is because precisely applying the words in the MLR E-5 Diagrams would give you a different answer on how to define the edges of the relief area cone. Whatever, it works, so I like it.

 

I understand Mr Bean made a follow up query to the R&A on that latter issue (italics) but I don't know if he ever received an answer (Mr Bean???)

 

2. Was the disappearing ball more likely to have been disappeared from the fairway or the rough?

 

This is a judgement call on the spot. Weigh up the things you know/can see and make a decision, then follow the respective guidance in the book (for off fairway) or the words above (for on fairway). 

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, antip said:

Two angles I will touch on.

 

1. How to apply E-5 to ball lost in fairway.

 

We discussed this in March 2020 and we got this input from our rules-friend Sawgrass: "The USGA informed me that the ball reference point is where you presume the ball was lost, and the fairway reference point is at the edge of the nearest short grass, add 2 cls to each side to make your cone-shaped relief area."

 

A dumb question about the fairway reference point in this situation - are the two club-lengths from the fairway reference point taken towards the ball (ie, into the fairway) or away from the ball (ie, into the rough)?

[Augster]

You can’t estimate where a ball SHOULD BE when it clearly isn’t there. It is either found, or moved by an outside agency, which you need KVC for. 
 

I’ve only ever had, or seen, ONE ball lost in the fairway. I knew it was in the fairway, no outside agency, no chance of plugging, but none of us found it in the 5 minutes. (A long time ago) Only after reteeing and hitting my 3rd to the exact same area did we find the original.  There was a sprinkler head countersunk about 6 inches that none of us saw and you had to be directly over it to see the ball. Very, very, very rare to lose a ball in the fairway. 
 

If you can’t prove KVC it was stolen, and there’s no chance of it plugging, then one can assume it is lost in the rough somewhere. It likely hit a sprinkler head, or the 150 pole, or a rock, and took a crazy bounce. Estimate a point in the rough for E-5. 
 

Insisting a ball is lost in the fairway is silly.

[antip]

46 minutes ago, rogolf said:

A dumb question about the fairway reference point in this situation - are the two club-lengths from the fairway reference point taken towards the ball (ie, into the fairway) or away from the ball (ie, into the rough)?

The message I took from the guidance is away from the ball (into the rough in this 'lost in fairway' case).  That is, the cone edge is always to the outside of the two reference points, the way it appears in E-5s Diagram 1.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, antip said:

I understand Mr Bean made a follow up query to the R&A on that latter issue (italics) but I don't know if he ever received an answer (Mr Bean???)

 

 

Unfortunately not.

[antip]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Unfortunately not.

I'm really not surprised. Thanks anyway. Still, we have the broad answer even though RBs have not done anything useful that shares it with the rest of the world.

 

[Mr. Bean]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

I'm really not surprised. Thanks anyway. Still, we have the broad answer even though RBs have not done anything useful that shares it with the rest of the world.

 

 

There used to be a time when I got answers most of the time but since the revised Rules I have got none.

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

 

Insisting a ball is lost in the fairway is silly.

No autumn leaves in your part of the world?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

No autumn leaves in your part of the world?

I’ve seen lost balls in fairways that plug, too.

[Schulzmc]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

You can’t estimate where a ball SHOULD BE when it clearly isn’t there. It is either found, or moved by an outside agency, which you need KVC for. 
 

I’ve only ever had, or seen, ONE ball lost in the fairway. I knew it was in the fairway, no outside agency, no chance of plugging, but none of us found it in the 5 minutes. (A long time ago) Only after reteeing and hitting my 3rd to the exact same area did we find the original.  There was a sprinkler head countersunk about 6 inches that none of us saw and you had to be directly over it to see the ball. Very, very, very rare to lose a ball in the fairway. 
 

If you can’t prove KVC it was stolen, and there’s no chance of it plugging, then one can assume it is lost in the rough somewhere. It likely hit a sprinkler head, or the 150 pole, or a rock, and took a crazy bounce. Estimate a point in the rough for E-5. 
 

Insisting a ball is lost in the fairway is silly.

Kind of interesting to give an example of a ball being lost in the fairway and then saying it is silly to insist it happened. I would presume something equally as unique (small gopher hole? unseen irrigation access?) happened to the OP. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

 

If you can’t prove KVC it was stolen, and there’s no chance of it plugging, then one can assume it is lost in the rough somewhere. It likely hit a sprinkler head, or the 150 pole, or a rock, and took a crazy bounce. Estimate a point in the rough for E-5. 
 

Insisting a ball is lost in the fairway is silly.

 

You say it's silly after you spend a paragraph explaining how it literally happened to you? I recognize it's a very rare situation. But it happened to me, and so I thought it would be a good discussion here. In your case you reteed. How would you have proceeded if your group was playing under MLR E-5?

 

Ok, so let's say you're right. I can't estimate a point in the fairway for the BRP. And I must estimate a point in the rough (or the stream bed, because I don't know why I'd eliminate the right side considering we're in "crazy bounce" territory). And the estimate will be difficult, because the search area for the ball included both the rough and the stream bed and no ball was found.

 

So... How do I do this? How do I estimate a point that clearly has no relationship to the last known trajectory of the ball, and must have resulted in a crazy bounce? I certainly did not see a crazy bounce. I did not see anything in the area that it would have been likely to bounce off of. So I have to estimate a crazy bounce that I didn't see, that I don't know what direction it bounced, and I don't know how far it bounced. This "estimate" sounds a lot like "make something up since clearly it CAN'T be in the fairway."