Maximum score in 18-hole match

Ty_Webb · July 15, 2008

What is it?

Hint: It's not 10&8

astamm8 · July 15, 2008

11 & 9?

Ty_Webb · July 15, 2008

Nope, more than that

lwbj · July 17, 2008

Well what is it?

Ty_Webb · July 17, 2008

I believe it is 15&13. Explanation as follows.

Player B loses the first two holes, at which point it is discovered that he:

- is carrying 15 clubs

- has been using a ball in violation of the one ball condition

- has been riding a cart in a walking only competition

- and has two caddies

all of these carry a two hole penalty, so he's 10 down after 2. He then loses the next two holes to be 12 down with 14 to play. It is then discovered that his remaining caddy is barred from acting, which is a further two hole deduction and he is now dormie 14. He loses the fifth to lose the match 15&13.

larrybud · July 19, 2008

Tough day!

Maybe the player should take up another sport!

BTW, there's no way that's correct. You cannot lose more holes than played.

Just taking the first instance, carrying 15 clubs. If the player lost the first two holes, they would remain lost. If he won or halved any of those hole, they would then be lost.

The correct answer is 10 & 8.

dj106 · July 19, 2008

Sounds like something Michelle Wie would do! Just kidding, but thats what was on my mind.

Ty_Webb · July 19, 2008

BTW, there's no way that's correct. You cannot lose more holes than played.

Just taking the first instance, carrying 15 clubs. If the player lost the first two holes, they would remain lost. If he won or halved any of those hole, they would then be lost.

The correct answer is 10 & 8.

Incorrect. Rule 4-4 a which states the maximum of 14 clubs states the following for its penaty:

Penalty For Breach Of Rule 4-4a or b, Regardless Of Number Of Excess Clubs Carried:

Match play - At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round: Two holes.

It says the state of the match is adjusted. It doesn't say that the player simply loses those holes. So if you lose the first two holes and then find out you have 15 clubs, your two down score is adjusted by one hole for each hole at which the breach occurred. In this case two holes, so you're four down. That's how it works.

Ty_Webb · July 19, 2008

By way of further clarification, decision 4-4a/9 says this.

KevCarter · July 19, 2008

I believe it is 15&13. Explanation as follows.

Player B loses the first two holes, at which point it is discovered that he:

- is carrying 15 clubs
- has been using a ball in violation of the one ball condition
- has been riding a cart in a walking only competition
- and has two caddies

all of these carry a two hole penalty, so he's 10 down after 2. He then loses the next two holes to be 12 down with 14 to play. It is then discovered that his remaining caddy is barred from acting, which is a further two hole deduction and he is now dormie 14. He loses the fifth to lose the match 15&13.

Ty,

Great thread, very interesting stuff! Scoring in match play is misunderstood by many, including me. I appreciate the brush up...

Who's dormie? :)

Kevin

Ty_Webb · July 19, 2008

Ty,

Great thread, very interesting stuff! Scoring in match play is misunderstood by many, including me. I appreciate the brush up...

Who's dormie? :drinks:

Kevin

Thanks Kev. I'm not sure what the meaning of your smilie is, but if you're really asking, dormie just means you're up by as many holes as you have left to play. In a game (like the Ryder Cup matches) where halves are allowed, it's the point at which you can no longer lose, but haven't yet won. If you already knew, then I wasted some typing, but heyho I can live with that. In a good mood right now having watched the Open today. Hope tomorrow continues :) :) :clapping:

KevCarter · July 19, 2008

Ty,

Great thread, very interesting stuff! Scoring in match play is misunderstood by many, including me. I appreciate the brush up...

Who's dormie? :drinks:

Kevin

Thanks Kev. I'm not sure what the meaning of your smilie is, but if you're really asking, dormie just means you're up by as many holes as you have left to play. In a game (like the Ryder Cup matches) where halves are allowed, it's the point at which you can no longer lose, but haven't yet won. If you already knew, then I wasted some typing, but heyho I can live with that. In a good mood right now having watched the Open today. Hope tomorrow continues :) :) :clapping:

Hey Ty,

Just playing... You made a typo in a post, I know that you know the correct answer. The player who is ahead is dormie. Thanks again for a GREAT thread, I feel your posts are spot on!

Kevin

larrybud · July 20, 2008

I stand corrected.

However, I would have to say that "dormie" is a misconception. You say that it's when you're up as many holes as you have left to play, and can't lose... But if you could run into one of the situtations that your answer brings up, so you COULD lose when dormie.

rudeskawn · July 20, 2008

Alright being new to golf... I am quite lost on what all this means. Anyone care to take the time to explain in retard terms?

jjj912 · July 21, 2008

Alright being new to golf... I am quite lost on what all this means. Anyone care to take the time to explain in retard terms?

The basics of Match play:

A match consists of one team (a team has one or more players) playing against another. In match play the game is played by holes. A hole is won by the team that needs the fewest number of strokes to hole out. A hole is halved if each team holes out in the same number of strokes. In a handicap match, the lower net score wins the hole. The state of the match is expressed by the terms: so many "holes up" or "all square," and so many "to play." A Side is "dormie" when it is as many holes up as there are holes remaining to be played.

If have won one more hole than your opponent, you are 1 up. Win two more holes and you are 2-up and so on. If both teams have won the same number of holes, the match is all square. To play refers to the number of holes left to play. So after wining the first hole, you would be 1 up with 17 to play.

If you are 3 up and are getting ready to play the 16th hole, then you are dormie. You are dormie because there are 3 holes left to play (16, 17, 18) and you are up by three holes. If you then lost the last three holes, the match would be all square.

Cryptic notations like 5&4 and 15&13 describe the final state of a match. 5&4 means that a player was up five holes with 4 holes left to play. This happens when a player is up four holes and getting ready to play the 14th hole. At that point is four holes up with five holes to play. After winning the 14th hole, he is up five holes with four holes to play. The player has won the match because even if his opponent wins the last four holes, that wouldn't be enough to overcome a 5 hole deficit. 15&13 means the player was 15 holes up with 13 holes to play.

At first glance it would seem that the highest score would be 10&8. A player gets there by winning the first nine holes, making him dormie (9 holes up with 9 holes to go) and then win the 10th hole to go 10 holes up with 8 holes to play. The starter of this thread "Maximum score in 18-hole match" recognized that this wasn't true. The reason it isn't lies in the rules.

In stroke play, a player is penalized two strokes for breaching certain rules. For example, carrying more than 14 clubs caries a two stroke penalty for each hole where the player had more than 14 clubs, with a four stroke maximum penalty. In match play, a player loses the hole. If you look at the Rules, you will find that most of the rules where the penalty is two strokes in stroke play have a loss-of-hole penalty in match play. The same two hole limit applies in match play as well. So, in stroke play, carrying too many clubs cost you at most 4 strokes and in match play it cost you at most 2 holes (There are disqualification penalties if you try to get cute with rules, but that's another story).

The way you win by a larger margin than 10&8 is when your opponent has committed a bunch of rule violations. He was carrying too many clubs, had too many caddies, etc. So, if you win the first 9 holes and then discover that the opponent had 15 clubs and had too many caddies you would be 9 up plus 2 (clubs) plus 2 (caddie) for a total of 13. These penalties are applied to the state of the match, not to a specfic hole. Thus, the score would be 13&9.