Who's Crazy

[Mookie91]

Golf Shafts

After looking at the 09 lineup especially the r7 limited it got me to thinking who is crazy in the golf manufacturer consumer relationship?

The golf manufacturers are having Fujikara and Matrix make stock shafts for them claiming that they are "specially" designed for the particular club head they are selling. Now most of the more serious collectors of high end golf clubs are either getting a factory upgrade or reshafting the club outside the OEM.

Now my question is who's crazier? The golf club company for spending the resources and capital to get a "quality" name brand golf shaft specially designed for the club that many of not most serious club ho(s) will disregard as junk. Or are the golfers who reshaft these clubs more intelligent than those who job it is to match the optimum shaft with that particular club head?

Discuss

[Grum]

Think you've got the last sentence wrong. It should read

 

Or are the golfers who reshaft these clubs more intelligent than those who job it is to match the cheapest shaft with that particular club head to suit the masses?

 

And being honest, i think the silly people are the ones that pay silly money for factory upgrades. If you want a decent set, goto a reputable clubmaker and get it done properly. You get some real sh*te from custom order departments.

[macglock]

No ones crazy, the shafts they put in fit most people out there (a majority of golfers cannot break 100)

And we (better golfers) are not crazy for installing new shafts that better fit our swings and needs

[Mookie91]

No ones crazy, the shafts they put in fit most people out there (a majority of golfers cannot break 100)

And we (better golfers) are not crazy for installing new shafts that better fit our swings and needs

 

So the crazy ones are the people spending $400 on a driver when $50 will do the trick?

 

Not jumping on you just trying to find the logic. So the people who can't break a 100 are spending hundreds of dollars to look good? I don't know I have played with a bunch of guys in scrambles who shoot 95+ and they don't know the difference between Matrix, Diamana, UST or Aldila...

[Mookie91]

Think you've got the last sentence wrong. It should read

 

Or are the golfers who reshaft these clubs more intelligent than those who job it is to match the cheapest shaft with that particular club head to suit the masses?

 

And being honest, i think the silly people are the ones that pay silly money for factory upgrades. If you want a decent set, goto a reputable clubmaker and get it done properly. You get some real sh*te from custom order departments.

 

I don't know if a Matrix shaft is the cheapest out there or the Voodoo? And a lot of people get custom upgrades based on the shafts they like to play, so are you saying those that like VS Proto are getting hosed by upgrading from the stock YellowBoard?

[SoCalTitleist]

No ones crazy, the shafts they put in fit most people out there (a majority of golfers cannot break 100)

And we (better golfers) are not crazy for installing new shafts that better fit our swings and needs

 

BINGO!

 

The average hack doesnt really know the specifics and advantages of a high end shaft nor should they since they dont have a consistent swing to take advantge of it.

 

The average golfer hears all the marketing mumbo jumbo about a pro shaft in an over the counter driver and their all over it.

[macglock]

Wasnt saying that the average joe is an idiot for buying a 460cc clubhead to give them more forgiveness and therefore enjoyment out of the game when they dont shank 9 out of 10 shots, just saying they cant tell the difference or see any significant performance increase from adding a 400 dollar shaft to the equation as those who cant break 100 typically dont have the most repeatable or efficient swing (unless they stripe it 100% of the time and have a horrific short game)

 

Marketing is very effective.

[OldSkoolTexan]

I think Taylormade, atleast, realizes that most ppl dont believe their shafts are the same as the reg Diamana, etc..  I was in Golf Galaxy the other day and saw a rack of new Taylormade woods with those red Matrix Xcon shaft.  They didnt have the taylormade designed by shafts, they had the reg Matrix shafts.  I think they were mostly Xcon 5 & 6.

 

Maybe ppl are more likely to spend the $$ when they feel TM is giving them the REAL uncut dope and not a watered down version.

[LucF]

Wouldn't it be easier if we could buy just the head?

[Grum]

Think you've got the last sentence wrong. It should read

 

Or are the golfers who reshaft these clubs more intelligent than those who job it is to match the cheapest shaft with that particular club head to suit the masses?

 

And being honest, i think the silly people are the ones that pay silly money for factory upgrades. If you want a decent set, goto a reputable clubmaker and get it done properly. You get some real sh*te from custom order departments.

 

I don't know if a Matrix shaft is the cheapest out there or the Voodoo? And a lot of people get custom upgrades based on the shafts they like to play, so are you saying those that like VS Proto are getting hosed by upgrading from the stock YellowBoard?

 

 

You really think they are the same voodoo's and matrix's you get from custom club makers?

 

You're calling other people crazy? LOL

 

 

I'm saying the quality of job/level of attention payed to custom orders is generally piss poor with OEM's.

[aussieb]

[quote name='LucF' post='1362516' date='Dec 6 2008, 11:37 AM']Wouldn't it be easier if we could buy just the head?[/quote]

Look at the lack of success with the I-mix and others. Most people still want/trust the epoxied in drivers. I'm not saying everyone, but quite a few. I actually find shaft profiles I prefer and take the shaft with me to the next head I buy. I did this with both my drivers and woods. I'm playing with the Rombax HB in my 17* hybrid for tinkering sake. But, I prefer my hybrid's stock Voodoo shaft that's sitting next to another one to be put back in once I decide which brand I'm going to play. I'll buy another of either Adams Pro 16*or Titty 909H 21*. I break shafts every 6 months or so.

I don't agree that everyone can't benefit from a good-fitting shaft. That's a misnomer of pro elitism with equipment that you aren't good enough to deserve it, just as much as trying to buy your game in the pro shop. The harder you work at getting both your game and equipment right, the more it will show over time.

[JCAG]

Mookie

The OEM's have to bring their normal graphite shafts in under $10 per club and not much over that cost for an upgrade. They have an economic, not a technical limit/decision to make.

[CarloGolfer]

I just got off the phone with a customer service rep at Cobra, asking him what the differences were between an after market xcon 6 x flex and the one they put in the Cobra Pro-D. He said it's the same shaft, but the one they install plays slightly softer to flex and has about 1* to 1.5* more torque.

I mention this because I just bought a xcon pull from a cobra to put in my G10. Tried a titleist "made for" stiff flex and it played soft. So, I'm betting the x-flex will be the solution as it is also tipped 1".

So, my solution to buying a high end shaft at a lower price was to simply get a flex stiffer than I usually play. I've been playing a V2 in stiff and it was fine.

I guess we'll find out this weekend if it works.

Just thought I'd mention it, even though this thread is a few weeks old.

[Awalkspoiled]

[quote name='CarloGolfer' post='2084417' date='Nov 25 2009, 11:36 AM']I just got off the phone with a customer service rep at Cobra, asking him what the differences were between an after market xcon 6 x flex and the one they put in the Cobra Pro-D. He said it's the same shaft, but the one they install plays slightly softer to flex and has about 1* to 1.5* more torque.

I mention this because I just bought a xcon pull from a cobra to put in my G10. Tried a titleist "made for" stiff flex and it played soft. So, I'm betting the x-flex will be the solution as it is also tipped 1".

So, my solution to buying a high end shaft at a lower price was to simply get a flex stiffer than I usually play. I've been playing a V2 in stiff and it was fine.

I guess we'll find out this weekend if it works.

Just thought I'd mention it, even though this thread is a few weeks old.[/quote]


The Cobra XCon 6 is a very nice shaft and I'd bet it will work well for you. The Titleist Made-for plays very soft, but the Cobra version is pretty true, so it may prove to be a little on the stout side.

It's identical to the aftermarket version except torque is different, profile is different, materials are different, assembly is different and it's made in China and not in Anaheim, California. Paint is the same, too.

That Cobra rep is identical to a well-informed honest man except when he's talking.

[Blackfinn]

Having had more than casual insight into the shaft industry, you must remember that the shaft companies cater to the large club manufacturers - not the other way around. The shaft companies, generally, live or die by their mass produced shafts and sometimes, if not often, are at the mercy of the golf companies that will contract with them. The shaft companies must offer a mass produced "quality" shaft at the lowest competitive price. The club manufacturers (or, I should say "assemblers") recongnize that the general golfing public is becoming more educated about shafts and want to have that shaft "name recognition" on their clubs. It's all about marketing to the [u]broadest array[/u] of the golfing public. The typically golf comsumer very much buys into the marketing hype, but they are also your HH golfers. Don't get me wrong, the shaft companies still put a ton of money into R&D to try to get a technical advantage, but it's all about mass production. That's why so many shaft manufacturers are marketing now in China. The specialty shaft market is a much smaller subset of the golf shaft industry.

[CarloGolfer]

[quote name='Awalkspoiled' post='2084448' date='Nov 25 2009, 11:53 AM']The Cobra XCon 6 is a very nice shaft and I'd bet it will work well for you. The Titleist Made-for plays very soft, but the Cobra version is pretty true, so it may prove to be a little on the stout side.

It's identical to the aftermarket version except torque is different, profile is different, materials are different, assembly is different and it's made in China and not in Anaheim, California. Paint is the same, too.

That Cobra rep is identical to a well-informed honest man except when he's talking.[/quote]

The Cobra rep was obviously reading me specs from a prompter, I could tell as much. I wasn't exactly cross examining him regarding the manufacturing process and I doubt he knew more than a customer service rep should know.

If it plays stout, I'll be happy... I hope. I'm trying to settle into my power fade since giving up the idea of a "controlled draw."

I've never demoed a "real" matrix but the "made for" titleist seemed to work as advertised.

Who knows, if I really love it maybe I'll save up my lunch money and treat myself to the real deal.

Awalkspoiled, since you're the defacto matrix guru here at Golfwrx, I'm wondering if you think I made the right choice or if another matrix would work better for me.

I play a power fade. My SS is 115+/-. The "made for" titleist did not launch high for me, but maybe that's because it was paired with the G10 head. My tempo is smooth, not herky jerky.

Whaddya think?

[1day2day]

if your swing speed is 115 mph why oh why are you buying such darn awful noodle shafts, i mean its your $$$ but really???????/

[CarloGolfer]

[quote name='1day2day' post='2084561' date='Nov 25 2009, 12:49 PM']if your swing speed is 115 mph why oh why are you buying such darn awful noodle shafts, i mean its your $$$ but really???????/[/quote]


The "made for" titleist was $40. I had no intention of switching from my V2 but for $40 I figured what the hell.

k?

[Awalkspoiled]

Yikes, I wish I had your problems and so do 99% of all other golfers - at 115 and smooth I'd say you'd want to maximize control and responsive feel since even a miss is going to give you 280 in some direction or other. I'd need to know a little more about launch angle, angle of attack, typical miss and preferred clublength before saying much more. The Cobra made-for, if it's been tipped an inch, is going to give you less than 44" in your Ping, so that's going to mean some tipweight and/or an extension. Once that's taken care of it's a very good value (make sure the extension is well made). The Titleist was probably hopeless at that swingspeed from the get-go.

Ideal aftermarket Ozik is probably something like the Altus or Altus LT in X - but those cost 10 times what your pull did. The smoother you are the less you have to spend to get acceptable performance, btw - my eldest stepson is 122 and smooth, and usually plays an 8 year old Innovative UFO 2.2 tipped X - hits it just as well as his F7M2. Sometimes he even plays his dad's stock TM R-flex, which looks pretty funny but... If only he had a shortgame.

[CarloGolfer]

[quote name='Awalkspoiled' post='2084613' date='Nov 25 2009, 01:16 PM']Yikes, I wish I had your problems and so do 99% of all other golfers - at 115 and smooth I'd say you'd want to maximize control and responsive feel since even a miss is going to give you 280 in some direction or other.[/quote]

It's not like I've done extensive testing on my SS. Last time I was in the golf shop on the monitor, about 18 months ago, I was moving between 112-117. Plus, I'm healthy now so I figure I should be averaging the 115.

[quote]I'd need to know a little more about launch angle, angle of attack, typical miss and preferred clublength before saying much more. The Cobra made-for, if it's been tipped an inch, is going to give you less than 44" in your Ping, so that's going to mean some tipweight and/or an extension. Once that's taken care of it's a very good value (make sure the extension is well made). The Titleist was probably hopeless at that swingspeed from the get-go.[/quote]

I don't have any videos available, but there are a few pictures of me swining in my review of a Hawaii course.

I'm in the white shirt.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301030"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301030[/url]

My typical miss is a slice. and yeah, that titleist just would not keep up. I had to aim left, almost in trouble, to hit the right side of the fairway or the intermediate stuff. Push fade all day.... but went as far and farther than my V2 which is why I was so pumped about the shaft.

[quote]Ideal aftermarket Ozik is probably something like the Altus or Altus LT in X - but those cost 10 times what your pull did. The smoother you are the less you have to spend to get acceptable performance, btw - my eldest stepson is 122 and smooth, and usually plays an 8 year old Innovative UFO 2.2 tipped X - hits it just as well as his F7M2. Sometimes he even plays his dad's stock TM R-flex, which looks pretty funny but... If only he had a shortgame.[/quote]

Ah, I found a video!

This is me in my backyard swinging a 7 iron nice and casually. This is taken between my first and second surgery.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJF7TP7W9qA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJF7TP7W9qA[/url]


I would say, basically this is my golf swing, only now I'm stronger and much more flexible. I can finally put a good, aggressive move on the ball.
Also, the last few swings down the line are a little lazy, my hands are higher now above my shoulders.

[Pweb44]

[quote name='LucF' post='1362516' date='Dec 6 2008, 12:37 PM']Wouldn't it be easier if we could buy just the head?[/quote]


I agree.....I would rather have the option to purchase the club head, either from a retailer or OEM directly then purchase the shaft that works best for me to have build to my specs locally than to buy a pre-assembled club off the reack then pay extra to upgrade shafts/grips to what I wanted originally.