Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[Ezgolfer]

Yeah ...., but VJ singh does have hardly any hogan in his swing . ..., Unless you are talking about VJ troujilo...he is similar quite a bit .

 

The only thing close to Hogan, VJ singh has is the practice ethics.

[Furrankee]

Close this thread. This thread is a waste of bandwidth for it is merely the opinion of men.

[iteachgolf]

If Vj thinks he does anything similar to Hogan he is wrong. Right arm gets too far behind him in the backswing and gets more stuck on the downswing in addition to losing his posture and flipping. Just because you feel you are doing something it isn't right. This thread is about what people ACTUALLY do and not what they think.

Lately I've been noticing what a mesmerizing rhythm Hogan has from beginning to end. I've been focusing on his hip movement and how he does a great hoola hoop routine which begins and finishes the swing. I think part of the secret is the hip rhythm and how it acts as a governer for the entire swing. I'm getting the Hogan puzzle one piece at a time.

 

 

The very best of Hogan to me is the movement in the hips. Do you ever look at these players (Bobby Jones, Hogan, Babe, or VJ)? The motion in which the hips move is a great amount, if you consider the trend of all the modern era guys who try to keep the hips still. VJ to me has a great amount of Hogan in his swing.

Vj looks nothing like Hogan. Vj loses his spine angle, backs out so bad that he almost knees his forearm, his path is way in to out and slings it down the line. He is the opposite of Hogan at every point that matters which is in the downswing and through impact.

 

 

 

I believe having a great amount of Hogan in his swing and looking as if he were Hogan are two different idea's. VJ has talked about on numerous occasions how Hogan has an influence on his swing. Some brilliant person said "most of the time what you feel is not what you actually do in the golf swing". Many people on this thread are quick to jump on a visual motion, there are many instances in a persons golf swing that feel is as good to making the correct movements of whom ever it is they are trying to copy. I can recall someone on this board saying that SF wanted you to feel as if you are trying to accomplish the biggest hook in the world without using your hands. Hogan never said that so is SF wrong? I would say he is not because it is a feel. Seriously there are to many good idea's here for ever other person that post to be called out. I like SF, Sevam1, Martinez, and some others thoughts although, I do not 100% agree with all the idea's they present on the table. This does not make them wrong an to me it is kinda like putting ketchup on scrabbled eggs, I don't like it but I can eat around it and still become some what full. To re-learn what we already know to be true is a hard response and the greats are open to all angle's. Columbus thought the world was flat and everyone believed him because his search was most reliable since it was in request under the king. So, how scared an open minded do you think the person who proved him wrong was, being every one else knew the world was flat an all. Hogan's swing was not perfect pre or post secret. I have viewed many photo's of Hogan in the rough or bunkers during tournaments and he has talked about how he tried with great adversity not to hit it left. Is his swing the correct way (Columbus)? or Is his rotary motion (The man who proved him wrong)?

[Tigersworld]

Gents, c'mon - Elkington's, O'Grady's or Campbell's swings are similar to Hogan's ? Appears to be a joke. There are elements in each of those swings that were present also in Hogan's swing, but the biomechanics is completely different from the ground up to the head. Frank's examples (Venturi, Harmon) or Thomson are mechanically closer, but this is still different to say that these could be called "almost identical".

Moreover, it is no use, IMO, to compare literally anyone to post-accident Mr.Hogan's swing because its biomechanics (no matter how much influenced by the accident harm to his body) is on the level that is not seen in any other player of yesterday and today. It is DIFFERENT. There even are "positions" in this swing that noone else could ever copy, let alone show in a swing motion.

His swing is not explainable by any Rotary, OnePlane, TGM, MORAD, Haney's, McLean's, etc. theories simple because they have no valid instruments to describe this motion properly (no matter that all of us are rather clueless) what really the Great Man did and what was the sequential consequences of each elements.

 

Cheers

 

Totally agree but always searching. But I do have one more entry that might qualify and given validity by the man himself seen it earlier somewhere on WRX.

JuNiOR

[Ezgolfer]

Totally agree but always searching. But I do have one more entry that might qualify and given validity by the man himself seen it earlier somewhere on WRX.

 

 

John gustin ....

Not as dynamic as Hogan. Quit close ...Looks somewhat like Hogan running on a weak battery ....

[Furrankee]

Play baseball. Mechanics are understood easier if you do. Truer words have never been spoken. I'm serious.

[juansky]

Totally agree but always searching. But I do have one more entry that might qualify and given validity by the man himself seen it earlier somewhere on WRX.

 

 

John gustin ....

Not as dynamic as Hogan. Quit close ...Looks somewhat like Hogan running on a weak battery ....

 

I love watching John Gustin's syrupee smooth swing. He doesn't do a full shoulder turn but he hits the ball well. The pros back in those days considered his swing the best of all time, that includes Hogan.

[D'KRUSHER]

John Gustin's is similiar indeed. I would love to see him hit a driver. Anyone have a video of this ? I would like to see him hit the ball hard.

[fats]

Totally agree but always searching. But I do have one more entry that might qualify and given validity by the man himself seen it earlier somewhere on WRX.

 

 

John gustin ....

Not as dynamic as Hogan. Quit close ...Looks somewhat like Hogan running on a weak battery ....

 

I love watching John Gustin's syrupee smooth swing. He doesn't do a full shoulder turn but he hits the ball well. The pros back in those days considered his swing the best of all time, that includes Hogan.

 

 

Funny juansky, but I never heard any players say that. It was a nice swing though, but very mechanical...he was a snappy dresser...maybe he was named best dressed? :man_in_love:

[downtoscratch]

..maybe he was named best dressed? No maybe, he was ! Hear it in the first seconds of this clip. dts

[JD3]

..maybe he was named best dressed? No maybe, he was ! Hear it in the first seconds of this clip. dts

 

 

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He looks like a dork in the beginning! :cheesy:

[Tiltswing]

Martinez,

 

You may want to read this thread comparing Mac to Hogan ...specially slicefixer's posts. BTW that does not look like Hogan..to me

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...36849&st=80

 

I'm not impressed by that swing either, looks like all the other swings on tour, DTL. If anybody has a Hoganesque swing , it would be this fellow from Texas. :hi:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O07VLH9DhmIFACEON

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHRn9W6FQM&NR=1DTL

 

 

?????

 

Mac releases the club left. I showed SF that swing (SF being a huge proponent of the left-release) and he said that Mac's swing here is a great swing and is in many ways a great example of what he (SF) teaches. Not exactly sure where you're seeing a DTL release.

[logan91201]

Martinez,

 

You may want to read this thread comparing Mac to Hogan ...specially slicefixer's posts. BTW that does not look like Hogan..to me

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...36849&st=80

 

I'm not impressed by that swing either, looks like all the other swings on tour, DTL. If anybody has a Hoganesque swing , it would be this fellow from Texas. :hi:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O07VLH9DhmIFACEON

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHRn9W6FQM&NR=1DTL

 

 

?????

 

Mac releases the club left. I showed SF that swing (SF being a huge proponent of the left-release) and he said that Mac's swing here is a great swing and is in many ways a great example of what he (SF) teaches. Not exactly sure where you're seeing a DTL release.

 

 

Mac had a way more DTL release back in the 80's IMOP. This swing, and his current swings are left releases all the way! Unless of course he wants to release it DTL. In that case he can!

[fats]

I was hanging around Mac for 3 or 4 days straight in 1989...He was very hush hush about a particular move left...He knew then what Hogan did...now, from what I have heard, Slicefixer was seeing Mac around 1984 I think, not sure...maybe Mac learned from Slicefixer?...Ol' Slice knows what's going on....I wonder if Slice was the first redneck to pass those gates at LaQuinta!!! ROFL

[hoganfan924]

I was hanging around Mac for 3 or 4 days straight in 1989...He was very hush hush about a particular move left...He knew then what Hogan did...now, from what I have heard, Slicefixer was seeing Mac around 1984 I think, not sure...maybe Mac learned from Slicefixer?...Ol' Slice knows what's going on....I wonder if Slice was the first redneck to pass those gates at LaQuinta!!! ROFL

 

Hey Fats,

 

Slice never took lessons from Mac, but he did play with and was buddies with a couple of tour guys back in the late 80's/early 90's I believe, who took lessons from Mac and they passed on a few tidbits (like the grip). Mac was a huge proponent of the "left release" way back in the mid-80's. I've seen a video he did in Sept. '86 where he talks about the "no release" aka "swinging left with some "#3" for the TGM guys. For the non-TGM guys - still maintaining considerable angle between the left forearm and clubshaft at impact (DTL view) - left wrist not fully uncocked. Paraphrasing, in that video he said "Swinging down the line lets the clubhead get away from you and all kinds of bad things can happen."

[fats]

Thanks...He told me about the vids...Like to see them sometime.

[eightiron]

Well I remain unconvinced by all the speculations put forward...although I would like to imagine Hogan had some #2 left wrist **** left over for impact I cannot find any footage to back up this ...having said that I do have a leaning towards Hogan getting pressure in his armpits..On further examination of this since Hogan had a slightly weaker left hand grip and their seemed to be no butt end of the grip exposed ( held it right on the end of the handle) it may expain the full release obtained without trying to hang on to any of these angles.

 

I remain totally unconvinced that Hogan had any active right arm straightening..Nor can I find any concrete evidence that Hogan actively shifts his lower cog by the feet ( Backshift move )

 

Statements made such as Hogan saying its easy to see if I tell you where to look..etc etc Well when and where did he make these statements..timelines with facts have to be presented NOT people's personal ideas cause the components fit their own swing..nothing wrong with that either..that's good for them...but was it Mr Hogan?????

[moefan]

Well I remain unconvinced by all the speculations put forward...although I would like to imagine Hogan had some #2 left wrist **** left over for impact I cannot find any footage to back up this ...having said that I do have a leaning towards Hogan getting pressure in his armpits..On further examination of this since Hogan had a slightly weaker left hand grip and their seemed to be no butt end of the grip exposed ( held it right on the end of the handle) it may expain the full release obtained without trying to hang on to any of these angles.

 

I remain totally unconvinced that Hogan had any active right arm straightening..Nor can I find any concrete evidence that Hogan actively shifts his lower cog by the feet ( Backshift move )

 

Statements made such as Hogan saying its easy to see if I tell you where to look..etc etc Well when and where did he make these statements..timelines with facts have to be presented NOT people's personal ideas cause the components fit their own swing..nothing wrong with that either..that's good for them...but was it Mr Hogan?????

 

Hi eightiron,

 

Thought this might interest you, (Venturi again...)

 

"When Ben Hogan went to Great Britain to make his one and only attempt to win the British Open (which he did), the Scots got to calling him "The Wee Ice Mon" because of his cool, unemotional manner on the course. But, believe me, underneath Ben was always just as anxious, nervous, tense as anyone else who has tried to play this game well.

Ben overcame a lot of his anxiety or tension by sheer force of will, but he also had a little mechanical device that helped him greatly and that can help anyone else. As far as I know, only four or five people have known about it until now, the discovery took me quite a few years.

A good friend of mine, California teaching pro Art Bell, first noticed in 1952 that Hogan often held the club with the heel of his left hand overriding the butt end of the handle. Art mentioned it to me in 1953, and I saw Ben doing it in 1954, but it wasn't until 1960, by which time Ben and I had become good friends, that I asked him why he sometimes held the club this way. Ben said that with the heel of the hand about a half-inch or so off the handle you can't swing the club too fast--which is the tendency whenever you're in a tense situation or frame of mind--because you simply don't feel you have a secure enough hold on it. The little finger of the left hand is on the handle, and the grip is actually pretty solid, but it doesn't feel like it. You sense you have to swing slower, and therefore you do.

After a few shots, or whenever the tension is relieved and you are back into a good rhythm, you can grip down on the handle in the convertional way, which, of course, gives you a feeling of greater strength.

This is a very simple piece of business, and something very difficult to notice, but it works.

 

moefan

[juansky]

Hi eightiron,

 

Thought this might interest you, (Venturi again...)

 

"When Ben Hogan went to Great Britain to make his one and only attempt to win the British Open (which he did), the Scots got to calling him "The Wee Ice Mon" because of his cool, unemotional manner on the course. But, believe me, underneath Ben was always just as anxious, nervous, tense as anyone else who has tried to play this game well.

Ben overcame a lot of his anxiety or tension by sheer force of will, but he also had a little mechanical device that helped him greatly and that can help anyone else. As far as I know, only four or five people have known about it until now, the discovery took me quite a few years.

A good friend of mine, California teaching pro Art Bell, first noticed in 1952 that Hogan often held the club with the heel of his left hand overriding the butt end of the handle. Art mentioned it to me in 1953, and I saw Ben doing it in 1954, but it wasn't until 1960, by which time Ben and I had become good friends, that I asked him why he sometimes held the club this way. Ben said that with the heel of the hand about a half-inch or so off the handle you can't swing the club too fast--which is the tendency whenever you're in a tense situation or frame of mind--because you simply don't feel you have a secure enough hold on it. The little finger of the left hand is on the handle, and the grip is actually pretty solid, but it doesn't feel like it. You sense you have to swing slower, and therefore you do.

After a few shots, or whenever the tension is relieved and you are back into a good rhythm, you can grip down on the handle in the convertional way, which, of course, gives you a feeling of greater strength.

This is a very simple piece of business, and something very difficult to notice, but it works.

 

moefan

 

Thanks for that nice morsel of information, never crossed my mind. In contrast, Anthony Kim does the exact opposite. He chokes down about 2-3" which gives him a nice counter balance in the hands.

[juansky]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

[JOEGOLFWRX]

....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

 

a gyroscope surely.

[logan91201]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

 

 

 

 

Hogan said undo every naturally inclined motion back-wards and you would be more close to making great golf swing. This might be his secret??? At the time every one was "two plane" and Hogan was a complete opposite. He did get in the correct positions but no in a frame that would photo "two plane"...

 

 

Ok, now I know you mentioned before that you don't like how posts are called out all the time, but you really need to take a look at what you just wrote. "At a time when everyone was two plane" ?!

 

Everyone was ONE PLANE back then sir. Jack brought the two plane craze to the world.

 

Check out the end of this vid where they show Gary Player, Arnie Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, and Mike Souchak DTL. Each of them are blatantly one plane except jack.

 

 

Others I can think of who had very inside handpaths and were one plane are Sam Snead, Chi Chi, Doug Sanders, Julius Boros, Gay Brewer, Ken Venturi, Gene Littler, and the list goes on. That is just off the top of my head. And I'm 23 years old. I'm sure some of our more experienced members could list another 20.

 

With the exception of Billy Casper I can't think of many two planers from that era at all. I'm sure there were some others, but the overwhelming majority were inside handpath one plane swingers (not TGM swingers just players).

[logan91201]

I was just wondering, can anybody guess as to how many secrets do we think Hogan had? So far from what I remember it's the cupped wrist, pivot action, grip, foot torque with an extra spike, elbows pointing towards hips, shoot.....I guess I'll throw in Hogan's cap. There was something inside that cap........alien mind control? :nea:

 

 

 

 

Hogan said undo every naturally inclined motion back-wards and you would be more close to making great golf swing. This might be his secret??? At the time every one was "two plane" and Hogan was a complete opposite. He did get in the correct positions but no in a frame that would photo "two plane"...

 

 

Ok, now I know you mentioned before that you don't like how posts are called out all the time, but you really need to take a look at what you just wrote. "At a time when everyone was two plane" ?!

 

Everyone was ONE PLANE back then sir. Jack brought the two plane craze to the world.

 

Check out the end of this vid where they show Gary Player, Arnie Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, and Mike Souchak DTL. Each of them are blatantly one plane except jack.

 

 

Others I can think of who had very inside handpaths and were one plane are Sam Snead, Chi Chi, Doug Sanders, Julius Boros, Gay Brewer, Ken Venturi, Gene Littler, and the list goes on. That is just off the top of my head. And I'm 23 years old. I'm sure some of our more experienced members could list another 20.

 

With the exception of Billy Casper I can't think of many two planers from that era at all. I'm sure there were some others, but the overwhelming majority were inside handpath one plane swingers (not TGM swingers just players).

 

 

 

 

Really?

 

This is Hogan when he was two plane, and of course Nelson has always been. Notice how high the hand are and raising onto a different plane. I'm sure there are many more that boarder "two plane". I would say that you are confused on what actual "one plane" or "two plane" is in the golf swing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9zZmHG8...feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf1OLhVxFQQ...feature=related

 

 

I am out of this discussion. You asked me to look at three videos to determine if the players are one or two plane, and they are all face on.

 

I did forget to mention Byron as one of the great two planers of that era. But the fact remains that that era of golf was consumed mostly by one planers, untill jack nicklaus came and changed things (for the worse IMOP).

[xiaoxiong]

I am out of this discussion. You asked me to look at three videos to determine if the players are one or two plane, and they are all face on.

 

I did forget to mention Byron as one of the great two planers of that era. But the fact remains that that era of golf was consumed mostly by one planers, untill jack nicklaus came and changed things (for the worse IMOP).

Logan, you should be out of that discussion long time ago :rolleyes: You don't debate with someone who think VJ's swing has a lot of Hogan, do you??? :clapping:

 

Cheers,

[iteachgolf]

It's not worth it Logan. He got mad when I said VJ looked nothing like Hogan so then he said if he feels like he looks like Hogan then he is. It's not worth arguing over, especially someone who doesn't seem to know the swing theory he is arguing about.

[MGWP]

I beg to differ...Bobby Jones...ONE PLANE.....ER..Think again...."everybody was one pkane back then"????????

I dont understand that comment at all!

[MGWP]

That been said, I do get the principle behind the post.

Those hickoru shafts and the associated torque made mono planar swings not possible..even if that is what the player was attempting to do.

That I think was the intent behind the initial post...they were trying to swing in a single plane...that I will accept as been very true.

 

In fact Harry Vardon said as much whenever anybody would listen.

He certainly believed he was on a single plane...of coourse before high speed photography showed us otherwise.

 

One caanot but wonder if they had high speed video back then, how much sooner hickory would have been replaced?

[PurePursuit]

One plane two plane blah blah blah..I thought from another thread a while back it wasn't the best way to classify swings. Steep(or High) ...Shallow (or Low) seem to work much better.

[eightiron]

Hogan's secret...well T-Bird/Texan G/Burley etc etc..What's the Secret In Your Opinion?

[Dariusz J.]

Yep, one/two plane is a misleading name; there is no single or one plane in golf, there are always zillions of parallel different planes in a full swing. The term "one plane" means no more that just the lead arm at the top is not higher than the shoulder line at the top. Can be also lower, as in case of post-secret Hogan, but it is also not a single/one plane swing from a mechanical point of view.

 

Cheers