Info about shafts for everyone

[cigarnut81]

1. What is the role of the shaft in a golf club and how important is it?

 

1.

The shaft is the number one controller of the total weight of the golf club. If you want a heavy feel, you have to go with a heavy shaft and vice versa for a light feel. Shafts exist between 40 grams and 130 grams. For achieving a normal swingweight range at the average lengths to which golf clubs can be built today, the heads each exist within a pretty narrow range of weight. Hence because you can have as much as a 90g range in shaft weight, the shaft is the #1 determinant of the total weight of the club.

 

From that of course, you have the ability to affect the golfer's swing speed; lighter shaft = lighter total weight = more swing speed. Fact – it takes a decrease of 20-25g of total weight of the club to allow the avg golfer with decent swing fundamentals to gain 1mph in swing speed. Hence if you shift from a 120g steel shaft to a 60gram graphite, most golfers would gain about 2.4mph in swing speed. For most golfers a 1mph increase in swing speed = 2.8 more yards in carry distance.

 

Now that something like 90% of all drivers are sold with a graphite shaft that weighs in the area of 60-75 grams, you can see that it's going to be pretty tough for most golfers to ever lower the total weight of their driver by enough more to get enough of a total weight decrease to account for any more swing speed increase. Yes, if you have a 70g shaft in your driver now and you go to a 40g shaft, you could pick up 1+ more mph in swing speed. But is that a measurable improvement in distance? Probably not in my book. So when it comes to using the shaft to decrease total weight and gain swing speed, you have to say that today, only in the irons is where that can happen. The reason is because graphite shafts currently comprise only 25-35% of the market share in iron shaft assembled club sales. Hence you do have quite a few golfers who could gain some distance in the irons if they have the money to stand the cost of an all light-graphite set of irons.

 

2.

So, bottom line is that YES, the shaft can allow you to drop total weight to gain more swing speed, but how many golfers are in the position where they can do that when they already own a light graphite shafted driver, and possibly fairway woods too?

 

The shaft may be able to have a slight effect on the launch angle and trajectory of the shot. However, it can only do this for golfers who have a mid- to late release of the wrist **** on the downswing, and who are able to keep the club accelerating on the downswing. Golfers who unhinge the wrist **** angle very early on the downswing expend all of the centrifugal force too early in the downswing that causes the shaft to bend forward at impact. Thus by the time they reach impact the shaft will no longer be able to bend forward and cannot have any effect on the trajectory. This is why golfers with an early release and passive downswing acceleration will hit all shafts the same height. Only the golfers who can retain the wrist **** angle until midway to late in the downswing will ever be able to see any change in the trajectory of the shot for any given clubhead loft or CG position. And that will be a slight change – in wood shafts, the most I have ever seen is a 2.5 degree change in launch angle between the most high trajectory shaft and the most low trajectory shaft designs. In the irons, this difference is only 1.5 degs because all iron shafts are much stiffer than all wood shafts by virtue of their shorter length and their larger tip diameter.

 

 

 

3.

Here's the BIGGIE that messes us all up and makes so many people think that the shaft contributes more to the shot results than it really does. The shaft has a very large effect on the FEEL of the golf club in two different ways. One, if you have a very discerning sense of feel in the swing, you can FEEL the shaft bend at the beginning of the downswing and again, right before impact. Most definitely there are golfers who have developed a very personal sense of what feels good and what feels bad when it comes to this perception of the shaft bending in the swing. Hence you have the situation where a rep on the tour hands a club to a pro who hits it once and tosses it back to the rep saying, "nope, I don't like this." Or, you have the opposite situation where a pro hits a club with a new shaft and after one or two swings says, "I like this, how soon can you re-shaft my driver?" If any player has a very definite sense of like and dislike in the bending feel of the shaft, when they get a shaft that feels bad to them in the bending feel, they start to change their swing to make the shaft feel better. This usually leads to more swing mistakes which result in more bad shots, which then are all attributed to the performance of the shaft. In reality, the poor performance happens because the golfer's swing moves are not well-matched to that shaft to be able to make it bend so it feels good to the golfer. On the other hand, when such a player gets a shaft that has all the desirable bending feel characteristics, their swing becomes more fluid, more consistent, and the shotmaking is better – and that is typically attributed to the shaft and thus labeled as a "performance element of the shaft."

 

The other FEEL that comes from the shaft is a portion of the feeling of the impact of the ball on the face of the clubhead. When the shaft is too stiff for the swing moves of the golfer, the shaft will transmit a more harsh feeling of the impact. Likewise when the shaft is more flexible, the shaft will transmit more of a softer feel of the impact of the ball on the face. Granted, a lot of this feel can also be controlled by the design of the face and the weight distribution of the head. So it is easy to confuse where the shaft's contribution to the impact feel stops and the contribution of the face/head design starts. But there is no question that if the shaft is too stiff for the golfer's swing moves, the impact feel will not be as pleasing as it will when the shaft is more flexible and thus more in tune with the golfer's swing moves.

 

4.

The shaft has a slight contribution to the accuracy of the shot both through its overall stiffness design AND through its torque. This too is difficult for a golfer to separate out and determine if any misdirection is coming from the flex being too stiff or the torque being too high – or if something about the shaft and the assembled specs of the club are contributing to make the golfer make swing mistakes that cause the misdirection. Basically, torque is not much of an issue in performance these days because of the more narrow range in which torque exists within the design of shafts.

 

As you know, most shaft companies will make their graphite shafts so that the stiffer flexes will have a lower degree of torque, while the more flexible designs have a higher degree of torque. Currently, you don't see torque existing much below 2 point something degrees, and this is always in the stiffer shaft designs which are intended for the strongest of the higher swing speed golfers. Likewise you do not see shafts with a torque much higher than 6 degrees, and this is almost always in shafts that are very flexible or intended for less strong, less skilled golfers.

 

Hence when it comes to torque, as long as the very strong golfer with the very aggressive downswing and late release stays away from shafts with a torque higher than 4.5 degs, that golfer won't see any misdirection that comes from the twisting of the shaft on the downswing. And likewise, as long as the much weaker golfer with a much more passive downswing stays away from shafts that have a torque lower than 3.5-4 degs, they won't end up with a harsh, unsolid feel from impact. And that's the way it is with torque.

 

For tour players or tour player like ball strikers, this is a little different but ONLY because these guys and gals are SO CONSISTENT with their ball striking that they can notice when a club results in a shot pattern that makes the ball move 5 feet off line. So for a player who is that good, yes, there can be situations in which a change of torque of 1 degree can tighten up their ball flight to the point that they don't see the slight movement of the shot that causes them concern for accuracy.

 

to top

 

1A. What does the shaft NOT DO in the swing?

 

As you can see Caroline, I added this question to your list. This is REALLY IMPORTANT because here is where you find so many MYTHS and MIS-INFORMATION about the performance of the shaft. First of all, the shaft DOES NOT "buggywhip" like a slingshot to hit the ball. Golfers think it does because they feel the shaft bend at the start of the downswing and then they feel the shaft kick at the bottom of the swing just before impact. That sensation naturally makes golfers think that the shaft "loads and unloads" as if to propel the ball in a slingshot manner of "spring back and spring forward".

 

The bending of the shaft at the start of the downswing and the bending of the shaft just before impact are TWO DIFFERENT ACTIONS which are unrelated to each other in their source. The amount of bending the golfer feels in the shaft at the start of the downswing happens in the 6 o'clock/12 o'clock plane of the shaft, i.e. in a toe-up direction. The bending of the shaft just prior to impact happens in the 3 o'clock/9 o'clock plane of the shaft, i.e. toward the target line. These are two totally different planes of the shaft.

 

The reason that the shaft cannot spring forward in a sling shot action is because our hands are so fleshy and supple. Here's an experiment any golfer can do to prove this. Grip a driver as firmly as you can and ask a friend to flex the shaft backward while you maintain the most firm hold on the grip you can to keep your hands and the grip from moving while your friend flexes the shaft back. Now ask your friend to let go of the shaft. The shaft simply goes back to straight and no more because your hands are so supple that they "Kill" the spring action of the shaft. If you want to see an example of the shaft springing forward in a slingshot action, secure the grip of the club in a bench vise, then pull the shaft back and let it go. Here you will see this slingshot action because the vise is so rigid that it can hold the grip with absolutely no movement when the shaft springs back. Your hands are not nearly as strong and rigid as a bench vise and therefore any slingshot action of the shaft is killed by the hands.

 

The initial bending of the shaft at the start of the downswing is controlled by, 1) how forceful and sudden the golfer starts the downswing (we call this the transition move in the swing). The more sudden the application of force by the golfer to start the downswing, and the more forceful this transition move, the more the shaft will flex at the very beginning of the downswing, and the more the golfer will feel this bending action. 2) the overall stiffness or flex of the shaft. Obviously, the stiffer the shaft, the more it will resist the golfer's transition move to be bent. And vice versa, the more flexible the shaft, the more it will bend in response to the golfer's transition move. 3) the length of the club – Again, obviously the longer the club, the more it will flex in response to the golfer's transition move in the swing, and vice versa for shorter lengths. This combined with #2 is why iron shafts never flex as much as a wood shaft. 4) the clubhead weight – the more weight in the clubhead, the more the head reacts to the transition move of the golfer to resist starting to move. The more the head resists the force of the downswing, the more it places a bending action on the shaft.

 

The bending of the shaft just before impact is controlled by, 1) How late or early the wrist-**** is unhinged in the downswing. As long as the golfer is able to retain and keep this wrist **** angle "hinged" from the start of the downswing, the golfer's arms and the club are moving AT THE SAME SPEED. The second the golfer starts to unhinge the wrist-**** angle, centripetal force is now applied to the clubhead and shaft. 2) the more centripetal force the golfer thus applies to the club, the more the head is "encouraged" to "push" the shaft forward. This is pure physics and is not subject to debate, period. When the golfer unhinges the wrist-**** angle early in the downswing (casting off the club) all of that centripetal force effect which causes the shaft to bend forward happens way before impact. Thus by the time the club gets to impact all of the forward bending influence of the early unhinging of the wrist-**** is "spent and gone" and the shaft arrives at impact in a straight position, thus unable to have any additional effect on the launch angle and trajectory of the shot.

 

Only in EXTREMELY RARE circumstances will the shaft be lagging backward when the clubhead arrives at impact. This can only happen when, 1) the golfer never fully unhinges the wrist-**** before impact, 2) the golfer also has a very aggressive downswing acceleration with the arms, 3) the shaft is flexible enough so it cannot resist the effects of #1 and #2 to start bending forward. Tiger Woods' famous "stinger shot" with a fairway wood or 2-iron would be the closest swing action I can describe that could cause the shaft to be lagging with the head behind the shaft and hands at impact.

 

99.9% of the time for players with a mid-way to late downswing release (unhinging of the wrist-**** angle) the shaft will arrive at impact bent FORWARD by some amount. This is the ONLY WAY the shaft can have an additional effect to the clubhead loft and CG and the the swing angle of attack to determine the final launch angle/trajectory of the shot. How much the shaft bends forward at impact is determined by, 1) how late the wrist **** release happens in the downswing. The later the release is FULLY unhinged before impact, the more the shaft could bend forward, 2) The golfer's swing speed – the higher the swing speed, the greater the centripetal force that is applied to the head to push the shaft forward, 3) the flex/overall stiffness of the shaft. Obviously, the more flexible the shaft in relation to #1 and #2 above, the more the shaft could flex forward before impact, 4) The distance that the center of gravity of the head is to the rear of the hosel bore. The laws of physics say that the shaft cannot bend forward more than the distance that the CG is back from the center of the hosel bore in the head. This too is unalterable scientific fact. So the farther back from the hosel bore the CG is located, the more the shaft can bend forward at impact.

 

Point #4 combined with point #3 above is why iron shafts cannot change the launch angle and trajectory of the shot as much as can a wood shaft. Conventional irons cannot get their CG very far back of the hosel bore because as you know, irons are narrow in their face to back dimension by tradition in their design. Also, iron shafts are all stiffer than the wood shaft of the same model and flex – this is because they are shorter in length AND iron shafts are almost always made with a larger tip diameter than wood shafts.

 

[jaskanski]

Meh. Shafts, Schmafts.

I got bored once I got past the pictures.

[stage1350]

No matter what you think you've learned, it all gets blown away by this one statement:

 

Bottom line, if you aren't playing Lime Green, you're leaving yards on the table.

 

Todd

 

Who can argue with that? Until you've walked a mile in his mandals, you'll never amass the knowledge that he's gained in 35 28 years. Unless you're willing to pay $300/hr... :rolleyes:

[OldSkoolTexan]

Meh. Shafts, Schmafts.I got bored once I got past the pictures.

+1 here........   I wasnt aware that anyone was questioning the importance of the proper shaft in clubs.

 

Also wondering what is IN cigarnut's "cigars".........  :)

[LowPost42]

A guy posts to enlighten, and this is the thanks he gets?

 

Nice forum. :russian_roulette:

[Slapjax7s]

good write up but everyone here knows everything about shafts right? We all play XTRA Stiff!!

[teddymolt]

A guy posts to enlighten, and this is the thanks he gets?

 

Nice forum. :russian_roulette:

 

 

The post was about as enlightening as reading the dictionary, which begs the question, was this plagiarized from the dictionary?

 

I think this thread needs some boob.

[Jayhawk]

Tom Wishon pwned Todd on this very subject. :nodding smilie:

[stage1350]

Tom Wishon pwned Todd on this very subject. :nodding smilie:

Rumor has it that Wishon warned him that a car forum was a bad idea too. Some people never listen. :bottom line, we're good:

 

 

...I think this thread needs some boob.

[armydiver]

Well written and enlighteningish

[Double Rods]

Tom Wishon pwned Todd on this very subject. :nodding smilie:

Rumor has it that Wishon warned him that a car forum was a bad idea too. Some people never listen. :bottom line, we're good:

 

 

...I think this thread needs some boob.

 

[TheVelvetCat]

Well, the driver in the diagram appears to have a Burner Bubble shaft, so you'll need to order special grips for it - but most reputable golf shops should have them on-hand, or may order them for you.

 

Here's a link I found - http://www.golfsmith.com/products/1800/Tay...ubble_Wrap_Grip

 

Oh, wait. Wrong thread. I better not hit the add reply bu

[mat562]

If you ever use one of those 'Tour Wrap-esque' grips on a Bubble driver, you need to take into account how the shaft flies as well as how it flexes.

 

Particularly after your hands get sweaty.

 

Without a doubt, the worst grip ever produced. If you count keeping hold of the club as something that's desirable in a grip, that is.

[NPVWhiz]

Whoever authored the original post should take a look at the Jan 09 edition of Golf Digest. On page 20, in the swing sequence of Jamie Sadlowski, is what looks to me like proof that the club can bow significantly forward in the 3 o'clock - 9 o'clock plane at impact. The author says, in 1 A, that our hands are too supple and soft and smooth and, well, unmanly to allow the club head to bow forward. A picture, in this case, is worth a thousand "trust me"s.

 

From the original post:

 

"The laws of physics say that the shaft cannot bend forward more than the distance that the CG is back from the center of the hosel bore in the head. This too is unalterable scientific fact. So the farther back from the hosel bore the CG is located, the more the shaft can bend forward at impact. "

 

 

So how far can that distance be...center of the hosel to the back of the head...4 or so inches max. That shaft looks to be bowed forward by much more than that.

 

Maybe it's just the angle of the photo, but it seems to contradict the "unalterable scientific fact"...

[Awalkspoiled]

"The laws of physics say that the shaft cannot bend forward more than the distance that the CG is back from the center of the hosel bore in the head. This too is unalterable scientific fact"

 

No, it's complete BS. Take a Whippy Tempomaster. Do your best to stop your hands at the bottom of the downswing. The clubhead will try to hit you in the face. This is not the same as the APPEARANCE of excess bend in a photograph which is often just an artifact of the scan or shutter direction.

 

The writer is trying to compare the behavior of a pendulum to that of the golf swing, which has much more complex acceleration/deceleration patterns. Anytime I hear "unalterable scientific fact" it makes me cranky. Just say "rarely" or "only in extreme cases", not "cannot"...

[DaveMac]

"Iron shafts cannot change the launch angle and trajectory of the shot"

 

First, I have to be honest and say I didn't read the whole article but the gist is that shafts don't make much difference, they just feel different (I think).

 

Regarding the quote above, at a recent Taylormade tour van day I had the opportunity to try the Tour preferred irons on the launch monitor. The results I obtained contradict the above statement, with a true temper DG R300 the six iron launch was 21 degrees with the same six iron head and a Nippon NS 850 shaft the launch was 26 degrees.

 

I may not know why but shafts do make a difference in launch conditions.

[Elsfan]

Mr. cigarnut:

 

If you are going to quote someone word for word, at least have the decency to cite your source . . .

[clubshack]

I agree

[jonwil]

Nice write-up. I enjoyed it.

[cb_golfer]

It's from here...

 

http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/Newsletter...ne-06/june.html

 

You gotta cite your sources...

[LowPost42]

It's from here...

 

http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/Newsletter...ne-06/june.html

 

You gotta cite your sources...

 

No, actually it's from here: http://www.wishongolf.com/books/common_sense.php

 

You gotta know your sources.

 

LOL

[golfdad907]

Thanks for the info, well summarized, Cigar! Not sure why all the sarcasm about this, I assume it's in the spirit of the highest form of humor.

[midwayj]

Thanks for the info, well summarized, Cigar! Not sure why all the sarcasm about this, I assume it's in the spirit of the highest form of humor.

 

People are tuning it out because it's boring and lacks hype or gimmicks. :rolleyes:

[cb_golfer]

It's from here...

 

http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/Newsletter...ne-06/june.html

 

You gotta cite your sources...

 

No, actually it's from here: http://www.wishongolf.com/books/common_sense.php

 

You gotta know your sources.

 

LOL

 

Well, there's a hyperlink in the article for http://www.wishongolf.com/etechreport/2006/june/#top

 

 

I think this post would have generated more constructive replies if the OP just mentioned Tom Wishon in the beginning.

[LowPost42]

It's from here...

 

http://www.clubmate-golf.com.au/Newsletter...ne-06/june.html

 

You gotta cite your sources...

 

No, actually it's from here: http://www.wishongolf.com/books/common_sense.php

 

You gotta know your sources.

 

LOL

 

Well, there's a hyperlink in the article for http://www.wishongolf.com/etechreport/2006/june/#top

 

 

I think this post would have generated more constructive replies if the OP just mentioned Tom Wishon in the beginning.

 

Yessir, I do believe you are correct. A little 'excerpted from "Common Sense Clubfitting"' would have done nicely.

[wedge1]

Thanks for the post. I am shaft shopping now so it is helpful. However, a huge part of my consideration is missing. How does length of the shaft affect the performance of the club?

 

My current driver is 45"...I had been playing a driver that was 45.5". I hit the 45.5" driver longer 5-15 yards average...but I WAS hitting the current 45" driver more consistent. A lot has changed for me in the past 3 months though...much improved swing mecanics AND lost 50 pounds...much more full swing with higher swing speed...up to a bout 105+ consistently...I bet higher in play because I am looser. I am not the same golfer I was with the last driver all the way around really...so I am not sure how to compare anything. I am also not the same golfer I was when I went to this new driver. I did hit a buddy's driver who has the same setup I did previously...5 balls...20+ yards further than my current setup...and much further than I hit that driver before. The issue before was consistency and workability...which I gained switching to the new driver in November.

My thought is that I have outgrown the shaft in this driver... (Stock S flex Titleist Diamana Blue)... The previous setup was the TM TB TP with the TM Diamana White. I'd like to go back to a Stiff tip, low launch, low spin shaft in the Titleist D2 9.5 degree head...which I prefer to the TM head. I am honed in on the AXIV Core Red 79 in S Flex and setting the length to 45.5 or even a slight but longer...wanted to know how that extra length would affect the club. I am guessing it will be a little heavier swingweight...which is fine.

 

Whachoo think?

[HackerD]

Unless . . . possibly . . . cigarnut is Tom Wishon. Has anyone ever seen both of them in the same room together? Could they be the same person?

[LowPost42]

Unless . . . possibly . . . cigarnut is Tom Wishon. Has anyone ever seen both of them in the same room together? Could they be the same person?

 

I thought WRX'er TomWishon was Tom Wishon.