Sevam's swing theory discussion thread

[Kumabjorn]

Invert the left for the back swing, evert, the right foot in the down swing.

Both feet move opposed to the target line, clockwise. Opposite of what you are inclined to do.

They take turns.

"Diggin" in as Hogan says, in power golf, does not mean the feet stay there.

 

Movements at the Tarsal Joints (See Chart III - Prime Movers of the Ankle and Tarsal Joints)

The movements that take place at the tarsal joints can be confusing to understand. Movements of the joints are complex, almost as complex and confusing as the terminology used to describe them. To simplify matters, the following terminology will be used:

The Neutral Position of the hindfoot occurs when the heel is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia. That of the forefoot occurs when the base of the second metatarsal is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia.

Heel Inversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel inversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 1)

Forefoot Inversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot inversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves adduction of the forefoot.

Heel Eversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel eversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 2)

Forefoot Eversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot eversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves abduction of the forefoot.

 

Sir Squish, always a gentleman and a scholar!

 

First, English not being a native tongue of mine I sometimes get a tad confused. I recall a wonderful picture in the Megathread (as I tend to refer to it) but that is just too looong to even begin searching in, that showed the exact movements of inversion and eversion. When you say that the feet move opposed to the target line I get vexed, the feet being perpendicular to it. However, finding the text above on Heel Inversion etc, I think I begin to better understand what you are saying. Before going to the range tomorrow to test this, I would love to get a confirmation.

 

Left foot inversion for the backswing

Opposite the target line means that the "screwing" of the foot is towards the target as the body (torso & hips) moves away from the target? Is that a correct interpretation? This should go from the heel towards the ball of the foot for as long as it can be naturally maintained?

 

Right foot eversion for the downswing

Basically the opposite of the above, as the body turns towards the target, the right foot turns away from the target? (What a wonderous concept, Moe Norman would probably exclaim: "Can't be taught") This too should be maintained for as long as naturlly possible?

[Kumabjorn]

I also experienced hitting some fat shots initially with both 6-iron and wedge. I now am consciously working on my release. I think The Move tightened up everything in my lower body, but I still had some residual flaws in my upper body movements to eliminate. The beauty of it is the fat shots are less random, meaning they occur precisely at the some point behind the ball. So that tells me that I likely have fewer variables to look at. The Move helps me get to my left side much more, so as I work on holding the angles in the downswing I'm also working on ensuring a better hip turn.

 

Keep at it. You will get there.

 

Making the same mistakes on a constant basis is just such an eye-opener for me. For the first time I can predict where the ball will go, either towards the target, or otherwise left. Obviously I want to reduce the remaining mishits, but I can't wait to see what this will do for my scoring once the season begins. Flag to the left, aim right of green center, hit it well and I have a long birdie putt, if I hit it bad I'll actually have a short birdie putt. Just boggles my mind. Flag on the right side, then just go for it. Some days this will make for some low scoring, others it will just be decent. And decent is spectacular, when you thought you were doomed to mediocraty as a hacker.

[Squish]

Invert the left for the back swing, evert, the right foot in the down swing.

Both feet move opposed to the target line, clockwise. Opposite of what you are inclined to do.

They take turns.

"Diggin" in as Hogan says, in power golf, does not mean the feet stay there.

 

Movements at the Tarsal Joints (See Chart III - Prime Movers of the Ankle and Tarsal Joints)

The movements that take place at the tarsal joints can be confusing to understand. Movements of the joints are complex, almost as complex and confusing as the terminology used to describe them. To simplify matters, the following terminology will be used:

The Neutral Position of the hindfoot occurs when the heel is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia. That of the forefoot occurs when the base of the second metatarsal is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia.

Heel Inversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel inversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 1)

Forefoot Inversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot inversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves adduction of the forefoot.

Heel Eversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel eversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 2)

Forefoot Eversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot eversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves abduction of the forefoot.

 

Sir Squish, always a gentleman and a scholar!

 

First, English not being a native tongue of mine I sometimes get a tad confused. I recall a wonderful picture in the Megathread (as I tend to refer to it) but that is just too looong to even begin searching in, that showed the exact movements of inversion and eversion. When you say that the feet move opposed to the target line I get vexed, the feet being perpendicular to it. However, finding the text above on Heel Inversion etc, I think I begin to better understand what you are saying. Before going to the range tomorrow to test this, I would love to get a confirmation.

 

Left foot inversion for the backswing

Opposite the target line means that the "screwing" of the foot is towards the target as the body (torso & hips) moves away from the target? Is that a correct interpretation? This should go from the heel towards the ball of the foot for as long as it can be naturally maintained?

 

Right foot eversion for the downswing

Basically the opposite of the above, as the body turns towards the target, the right foot turns away from the target? (What a wonderous concept, Moe Norman would probably exclaim: "Can't be taught") This too should be maintained for as long as naturlly possible?

 

 

 

Rotate the left foot clockwise.

Rotate the right foot clockwise.

You are rolling ankles of both feet toward center through rotation of the lower legs.

Left inward the backswing, right inward the downswing through inward rotation of the tibia.

A great way to understand it is to look at your feet while you rotate. As your tibia internal rotates, you are pronating. The talus is adducting and plantarflexing. This supinates the midtarsal joint wand unlocks the forefoot. By unlocking the forefoot it allows the forefoot to abduct, evert, and dorsiflex.

 

When you release the rotating braced left knee in the slot., continue rotating as the left knee turns outward.

This put the left foot into supination. This action as you twist left leg clockwise, along with the forward swing/turn of the hip, sends the left foot into supination, a rolling to outside out the left foot feeling.

 

It's good you are looking at this in depth. once you get it its very repeatable. It makes timing a no thought.

Pay attention to the ground the feet the ankles. They move the torso.

[kevn357]

Invert the left for the back swing, evert, the right foot in the down swing.Both feet move opposed to the target line, clockwise. Opposite of what you are inclined to do.They take turns."Diggin" in as Hogan says, in power golf, does not mean the feet stay there.

Movements at the Tarsal Joints (See Chart III - Prime Movers of the Ankle and Tarsal Joints) The movements that take place at the tarsal joints can be confusing to understand. Movements of the joints are complex, almost as complex and confusing as the terminology used to describe them. To simplify matters, the following terminology will be used: The Neutral Position of the hindfoot occurs when the heel is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia. That of the forefoot occurs when the base of the second metatarsal is aligned with the vertical axis of the tibia. Heel Inversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel inversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 1) Forefoot Inversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot inversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates medially ( inward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves adduction of the forefoot. Heel Eversion - refers to the movement at the subtalar joint. Heel eversion occurs when the heel ( calcaneus) deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. (Fig. 2) Forefoot Eversion occurs at the transverse tarsal joints. Forefoot eversion occurs when the second metatarsal deviates laterally ( outward) from the vertical axis of the tibia. This movement also involves abduction of the forefoot.

Sir Squish, always a gentleman and a scholar!First, English not being a native tongue of mine I sometimes get a tad confused. I recall a wonderful picture in the Megathread (as I tend to refer to it) but that is just too looong to even begin searching in, that showed the exact movements of inversion and eversion. When you say that the feet move opposed to the target line I get vexed, the feet being perpendicular to it. However, finding the text above on Heel Inversion etc, I think I begin to better understand what you are saying. Before going to the range tomorrow to test this, I would love to get a confirmation.Left foot inversion for the backswingOpposite the target line means that the "screwing" of the foot is towards the target as the body (torso & hips) moves away from the target? Is that a correct interpretation? This should go from the heel towards the ball of the foot for as long as it can be naturally maintained?Right foot eversion for the downswingBasically the opposite of the above, as the body turns towards the target, the right foot turns away from the target? (What a wonderous concept, Moe Norman would probably exclaim: "Can't be taught") This too should be maintained for as long as naturlly possible?

Rotate the left foot clockwise.Rotate the right foot clockwise.You are rolling ankles of both feet toward center through rotation of the lower legs.Left inward the backswing, right inward the downswing through inward rotation of the tibia.A great way to understand it is to look at your feet while you rotate. As your tibia internal rotates, you are pronating. The talus is adducting and plantarflexing. This supinates the midtarsal joint wand unlocks the forefoot. By unlocking the forefoot it allows the forefoot to abduct, evert, and dorsiflex.When you release the rotating braced left knee in the slot., continue rotating as the left knee turns outward. This put the left foot into supination. This action as you twist left leg clockwise, along with the forward swing/turn of the hip, sends the left foot into supination, a rolling to outside out the left foot feeling.It's good you are looking at this in depth. once you get it its very repeatable. It makes timing a no thought. Pay attention to the ground the feet the ankles. They move the torso.

My brain just had a spasm..

[juansky]

My brain just had a spasm..

 

:cheesy: Yeah, that's Squish for you. But he really knows his stuff. Maybe Squish can make some drawings for us visual folk.

[Kumabjorn]

Sir Squish explains in distinct clear scientific terms, hence there is no room for misunderstanding. That however relies on the recipient understanding the scientific terminology. When he explained about the feet going clockwise I wsa actually watching The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons, in which the clock goes in the opposite direction, it took me a little while to clear that image before interpreting his message.

Also, after finding anatomical resources explaining inversion and eversion I came to realize that he specifically talks about Heel Inversion and Heel Eversion. For me the problem was that left foot inversion = right foot eversion as far as direction of movement is entailed, it is however different muscles that are activated to achieve the move.

[kevn357]

Squish is definitely very clear when I take the time to research the terms he is using, which I usually do. Today I'm pretty stupid, so I surrendered. I'll have a look tomorrow and know it's worth the time to learn those big words! midtarsal will be first lol.

[Squish]

I'm no Doctor.

 

I am however a technician, so I have to know, it's in my nature to study how something works.

Is it too much to think about? Yes

Is it much ado about nothing? No.

 

What I explain is how the wring your the lower right leg like a wet towel.

We do this slightly with every step we take....It's running when the foot lifts.

In the golf swing, the spikes grab the turf, so that torquing of the lower leg turns the hips.

The twist rotates the femur and torso which remains static.

 

This action is Driving the swing. If you simply turn the hips and let the legs catch you, you have no stability

at the top. You are all over the place.

 

If you you turn the right knee targetward from the top, and get up on your great toe, you just pulled the rug out from under yourself.

You are over the top.

 

Even showing this in video would not explain it well, it is something you must try and discover for yourself.

 

You hear about maintaining, turning, against a stable kicked in right knee through out the back swing.

This is whats happening when you do that.

The bonus comes through impact when the twisting action lets you propell the right hip from the inside of the right foot. (pronation).

 

The inversion and eversion of the foot are reactions to the work of the muscles of the leg.

I'm explaining this.

 

" When Playing a tee shot, a fairway wood shot or a long iron shot I get a little something extra into it by the manner in which I utilize my right foot. Some say that I dig my right toe in when hitting tee shot, but that description isn't correct because it isn't my toe I dig into the ground.

 

At address for the above-mentioned shots I dig in with the cleats on the inside edge of the sole of my right shoe. This gives me a feeling of solidity to hit from and as a result I get more distance by giving a little shove with my right foot as the club approaches the ball.

 

Yet I don't dig in so solidly that my foot is ever locked to the ground. Nor does my "digging in" interfere with the proper motion of the feet and the shifting of my weight during the swing. Maybe it will take you a little time to get into the use of the little wrinkle I have described above, but it is the little variations which give me my extra power"

 

I am telling you that it is almost impossable to properly clear the left hip, in a dependable, repeatable manner without the torqueing of the lower legs.

 

The proper use of the six levers of the lower body, the ankles knees and hips is achieved through medial rotation.

Not pushing or pulling.

 

Stability through Mobility.

[Kumabjorn]

I for one is truly grateful that Sir Squish takes the time to explain these things so they are above and beyond any misinterpretation.

Does it require an effort on my part? No doubt about it.

Is it worth all the effort? Absolutely priceless.

 

Today I had a three hour range session working on left foot inversion and right foot eversion. Once in a while I got it just right, I found that feeling of effortless power, it was almost like my whole swing was accomplished through my feet and lower leg. The rest was just along for the journey.

As I mentioned earlier, I practice by hitting PW at a tree 110 yards away. The good shots land just at the root of the trunk. I call those birdie putt bonuses. The one where the power was effortless got caught in the canopy, and would have been some 15 to 20 yrds longer than those I used to be pleased with. Imagine the confidence that creates in a Hacker's heart.

 

My discovery was that it requires a lot of courage to swing like that. I have a tendency to not complete the right foot eversion for fear of falling. Rationally I realize that it isn't going to happen, but try telling that to my subconscious mind.

 

I also worked on some 30 yrd LW shots using only the inversion of the left foot and rotating around my left leg. Amazing precision. If I were Huxley I'd say "Welcome to my brave new world".

 

Thank you, Sir Squish!!

[sevam1]

I'm no Doctor.

 

I am however a technician, so I have to know, it's in my nature to study how something works.

Is it too much to think about? Yes

Is it much ado about nothing? No.

 

What I explain is how the wring your the lower right leg like a wet towel.

We do this slightly with every step we take....It's running when the foot lifts.

In the golf swing, the spikes grab the turf, so that torquing of the lower leg turns the hips.

The twist rotates the femur and torso which remains static.

 

This action is Driving the swing. If you simply turn the hips and let the legs catch you, you have no stability

at the top. You are all over the place.

 

If you you turn the right knee targetward from the top, and get up on your great toe, you just pulled the rug out from under yourself.

You are over the top.

 

Even showing this in video would not explain it well, it is something you must try and discover for yourself.

 

You hear about maintaining, turning, against a stable kicked in right knee through out the back swing.

This is whats happening when you do that.

The bonus comes through impact when the twisting action lets you propell the right hip from the inside of the right foot. (pronation).

 

The inversion and eversion of the foot are reactions to the work of the muscles of the leg.

I'm explaining this.

 

" When Playing a tee shot, a fairway wood shot or a long iron shot I get a little something extra into it by the manner in which I utilize my right foot. Some say that I dig my right toe in when hitting tee shot, but that description isn't correct because it isn't my toe I dig into the ground.

 

At address for the above-mentioned shots I dig in with the cleats on the inside edge of the sole of my right shoe. This gives me a feeling of solidity to hit from and as a result I get more distance by giving a little shove with my right foot as the club approaches the ball.

 

Yet I don't dig in so solidly that my foot is ever locked to the ground. Nor does my "digging in" interfere with the proper motion of the feet and the shifting of my weight during the swing. Maybe it will take you a little time to get into the use of the little wrinkle I have described above, but it is the little variations which give me my extra power"

 

I am telling you that it is almost impossable to properly clear the left hip, in a dependable, repeatable manner without the torqueing of the lower legs.

 

The proper use of the six levers of the lower body, the ankles knees and hips is achieved through medial rotation.

Not pushing or pulling.

Stability through Mobility.

 

Squish,

 

You are correct. The reason that there is so much power that can come from the feet and lower legs is that they are the furthest things away from the top of the spine. If we consider the top of the spine as a fulcrum point then we know from physics that the further away from the fulcrum point that a force is applied the les force if required to achieve the same results. This is just how a simple lever system works.

 

 

“Give me a place to stand and a lever long enough and I will move the world”

 

 

• Archimedes, 220 BC
   
   
  The ground the the furthest thing from the shoulders. The closer to the ground that the motivating forces originate the stronger they are felt at the top of the lever system. The same applied to the rotational forces invloved. The further from the shoulders they originate the strong their effect.
   
  This is an oversimplification, but this in a nutshell is what is happening when the motivation for the swing is built around rotational shear forces in the feet.
   
  Effortless power vs. powerful effort.
   
  That has been what I have been on about since minute one.
   
  Sevam1
  

[JD3]

Sevam1,

 

Been working on Part2 of the move. During the vertical drop, I have intentionally been letting the cup in my right wrist drastically increase. I feel the weight of the club in transition assisting in this process. This really helps my right elbow drop closely to my right hip and seems to put me in a good position at the end of the arms free ride. This also gets rid of the cup in my left wrist through pressure from the right palm into the base of the left thumb.

 

However, as a "master flipper", even though it is harder, I found that I can still release a little early with the right hand from this position. Now I am working on squaring the club with the left hand by the "tripping the shaft" ala chapter 6, but sometimes do not seem to be getting enough rotation of the hands using the pincers of the left hand to accomplish this. Is turning the last two fingers of the left hand in to the left palm an acceptable way to accomplish the same thing or will this cause other problems?

 

In general, am I on the right track with this? As always, I appreciate any feedback you can provide.

 

MH

 

I apply pressure with the left thumb and forefinger. I basically feel that rotation trying to happen and just go with it.

 

Sevam1

What is vertically dropping? And is it occurring at the same time that the left hip is rising? I watched Sevam1's Move 2 video and never heard mention of "vertical drop."

[sevam1]

To make the concept as simple as possible, in transition you want to feel like you are getting shorter (compressing) rather than taller (standing up).

 

Sevam1

[JD3]

To make the concept as simple as possible, in transition you want to feel like you are getting shorter (compressing) rather than taller (standing up).

 

Sevam1

Thanks. So it has nothing to do with the arms dropping seperately.

 

How would you describe arm action at this point? Should there be a conscious effort to do anything wth them? In this video wherein Hogan is demonstrating start of downswing, do you think he is consciously dropping his arms or is he letting the pivot/turn take care of that?

[sevam1]

To make the concept as simple as possible, in transition you want to feel like you are getting shorter (compressing) rather than taller (standing up).

 

Sevam1

Thanks. So it has nothing to do with the arms dropping seperately.

 

How would you describe arm action at this point? Should there be a conscious effort to do anything wth them? In this video wherein Hogan is demonstrating start of downswing, do you think he is consciously dropping his arms or is he letting the pivot/turn take care of that?

 

The arms take the "free ride" that Hogan decribes in 5 Lessons. This is a reaction. Not an action. There is no need to do anything consciuosly with the arms in transition. Unless you've moved them out of position on the backswing the bowing of the body as the legs and hips lead from the ground up will have the arms chasing into postition as the rest of the body moves in sequence.

 

Sevam1

[Squish]

Can you visualize how medial rotation can clear the left hip back and around, while carriyng your entire right side into the slot?

This single action keeps the center of gravity inside the left instep, vs a lateral rotation, overshifting the COG to the outside of the foot.

Also how lateral rotation of the right leg, can bring the right hip under out and up.

 

Medial meaning toward the center, lateral away from center.

[Kumabjorn]

Thank you Sir Squish!

Clear as chrystal.

For some reason, every 6 or 7 shots on the range, the lateral rotation of the right leg will cause me to move the weight to the outside of the leg (fascinating how absolutely obvious and clear that feeling is now, as compared to earlier when I was a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat). Is that when the thigh muscles get activated by the lateral rotation in the lower leg?

[Squish]

The lateral rotation of the right is opposite the lateral/medial of the left.

It forms the squat in the downswing.

 

The thigh muscles help with the clockwise rotations of the tibas a fibula, but for the most part, remain passive.

In the golf swing the femur of the legs, and the humerus of the arms move with the torso, they don't initiate or generate the action.

They are moved.

 

Its only the double bone sets, the tibia and fibula, the ulnar and radius that do the generating, locomotion..

The hands, feet and torso(humerus/femur) just react.

[Ogameone]

To make the concept as simple as possible, in transition you want to feel like you are getting shorter (compressing) rather than taller (standing up).

 

Sevam1

 

... well i guess thats the point i struggle most. i understand that i should get down in transition what even makes sense physically, taking profit of gravity. but on top of the swing i have the sensation that i´m already sitting deep inside my right hip, so when i iniciate the downswing it´s more in a level manner moving the left knee towards the target. i can not imagine how i could get shorter from that point. maybe to get inside the right hip by staying more upright to keep place for a further drop? so what´s the point?

[sevam1]

To make the concept as simple as possible, in transition you want to feel like you are getting shorter (compressing) rather than taller (standing up).

 

Sevam1

 

... well i guess thats the point i struggle most. i understand that i should get down in transition what even makes sense physically, taking profit of gravity. but on top of the swing i have the sensation that i´m already sitting deep inside my right hip, so when i iniciate the downswing it´s more in a level manner moving the left knee towards the target. i can not imagine how i could get shorter from that point. maybe to get inside the right hip by staying more upright to keep place for a further drop? so what´s the point?

 

You have a point. If you have resisted the urge to "stand up" on the backswing then you are probably fine with simply maintaining the compressed state that you created on the backswing through transition. Droppping more will likely yield diminishing returns.

 

Sevam1

[Ogameone]

Quote

 

You have a point. If you have resisted the urge to "stand up" on the backswing then you are probably fine with simply maintaining the compressed state that you created on the backswing through transition. Droppping more will likely yield diminishing returns.

 

Sevam1

 

Thanks for your answer. usualy not having much problems following your speech (english is a second language) , wich i realy adore in terms of eloquence, passion and also the simpliticity how you´re able transporting the core to audience. "Dropping more will likely yield diminishing returns" found out to be a bit wierd to translate for me. so maybe you´ld be able to get the meaning of this in a bit more simple package?

 

...well, actualy following your movies, especialy the "slomo sequences", i got the sensation on backswing i´m screwing down automatically into my right hip ending up in this kind of sitting position. the pivot of this screwing is found in the pretourque of the right foot/leg. a little wagle seems to make me able to feel (sometimes like a whisper) the path how to get in.

 

well, it´s strong winter here so i only try to built my swing in the living room for now. started the game last year in a testosteroned hitting manner, i´m now working to change from a violent hitter to a living swinger. sensation of the swing has changed from "hitting a hammer" to something that i´d describe more of a sling. do you think that´s a good way? for me it feels like.

 

...this kind of dropping/screwing down into my right side makes me a little sorrow of fat shots, wich i had to struggle with last season. on the other hand i guess the new found lag of the sling could be the savour?

 

p.s.: still could´nt find out how to quote correctly.

[Richie3Jack]

In order to get shorter in the downswing, you need to keep that pressure on the ball of the foot. I found it easy for me to erroneously put the pressure on the big toe and still have that problem to a degree on the downswing. The arch of the foot should work like a suction cup. If you get the pressure on the toe you lose that suction cup feeling and you will get taller instead of shorter on the downswing.

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[Ogameone]

to sevam1.

 

on my "research" of the golfswing i found your doubts about the "pause at the top of the swing" by tommy armour. i simply believe he wants to help beginners to built a sense for letting happen the wrist hinge (besides of getting familiar with the sequence of the swing at all). as this for you became second nature , you might do not need to take care about it anymore. insecure players often have the tendency to overhurry.

 

in other words, to me he just meant : don´t forget to load your gun ;-)

[Ogameone]

hi, 3jack.

 

getting the pressure on the toe sounds for me getting off balance early (maybe already at adress). or maybe ball placed too far away. like very much the suction cup alegory. for me it´s about standing on the inside of the right foot like i do at skiing with the foot next to the valley, maintaining the clockwise rotation. my impression also is it´s more pressure in the pretourqe with the longer clubs while with shortirons or wedges it´s more slightly.

[sevam1]

to sevam1.

 

on my "research" of the golfswing i found your doubts about the pause at the top of the swing by tommy armour. i simply believe he wants to help beginners to built a sense for letting happen the wrist hinge (besides of getting familiar with the sequence of the swing at all). as this for you became second nature , you might do not need to take care about it anymore. insecure players often have the tendency to overhurry.

 

in other words, to me he just meant : don´t forget to load your gun ;-)

 

Tommy Armour was a brilliant teacher and as you know I love the simplicity of his book How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time. I agree that the pause at the top was his recipe to get people to get a sense of completing their backswing and as you say "loading your gun". My only concern with this is that for many people it leads to a mechanical rather than fluid and dynamic transition move. I like the clubhead to always be moving so that you can react to it. That is my only real concern.

 

And by "diminishing returns" in the previous post I was simply pointing out that more is not always better.

 

 

 

Sevam1

[Ogameone]

Quote: Tommy Armour was a brilliant teacher and as you know I love the simplicity of his book How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time. I agree that the pause at the top was his recipe to get people to get a sense of completing their backswing and as you say "loading your gun". My only concern with this is that for many people it leads to a mechanical rather than fluid and dynamic transition move. I like the clubhead to always be moving so that you can react to it. That is my only real concern.

 

And by "diminishing returns" in the previous post I was simply pointing out that more is not always better.

 

 

 

Sevam1

 

got your point. as not being involved to the game very long now, this is a point to return on any segment i put or try in my swing. simply, thinking about mechanics ( being not familar with) at adress or during the swing is always a predator to fluidity. so, found no other way than crossing this alley and then if things seem to work out i consiously try to free my swing. wich sometimes is the hardest work, seems on times i tend to fall in love with my balloons.

[JD3]

Sevam --

 

I read the Jimmy Demaret article in Golf Magazine's April 1978 issue titled "Golf's Most Respected Swing" wherein he says BH pushed off his backfoot in the downswing because that's where you get leverage. Like a pitcher or passer he says "everyone knows you can't get any leverage off the your left foot." This of course is spot on with what you say. However at the very end he says "... I think the key to Hogan's swing was his ready position -- when he dropped his hands into the slot. I believe this was the real secret he talked about." Earlier in the article he said "... once he reaches the top of his backswing he drops his hands into a beautiful "ready position" to move into the hitting area." He also implies it's not an easy thing to learn by saying "... it's a unique move that took the amount of concentration and the willingness and time to practice that only Ben Hogan brought to the game."

 

It's definitely a spot in his swing I've focused on at times recognizing how simple it would be to murder the ball from there. Every other good player I've seen (myself included) his their hands higher and with more wrist **** at that point, rendering a steeper, less sweeping move thru the ball. And although others recognize this, I haven't heard anyone effectively explain how to get there ... heck, sounds like even Demaret didn't know.

 

Do you think this was an important key too? If so, how do you think he got to this position that no one else seems to?

 

 

[juansky]

Quote: Tommy Armour was a brilliant teacher and as you know I love the simplicity of his book How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time. I agree that the pause at the top was his recipe to get people to get a sense of completing their backswing and as you say "loading your gun". My only concern with this is that for many people it leads to a mechanical rather than fluid and dynamic transition move. I like the clubhead to always be moving so that you can react to it. That is my only real concern.And by "diminishing returns" in the previous post I was simply pointing out that more is not always better.Sevam1got your point. as not being involved to the game very long now, this is a point to return on any segment i put or try in my swing. simply, thinking about mechanics ( being not familar with) at adress or during the swing is always a predator to fluidity. so, found no other way than crossing this alley and then if things seem to work out i consiously try to free my swing. wich sometimes is the hardest work, seems on times i tend to fall in love with my balloons.

I don't think Ben meant it to be a pause at the top of the swing. It looks "like" a pause because of the switch in direction and because of the little arm drop off which gives the illusion of a pause. Hogan was not mechanical at all, he was all rhythm.Hey Sevam, here is some footage of Thompson. He also had a very fluid repeatable swing, down Hogan's alley.

[hangubber]

Does there appear to some agreement in these 2 videos about how Hogan rotated the club in the second part of the swing?

 

Sevam1's video:

 

Kevin's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJaTyC7tcA...feature=related

 

The hand/wrist action seems to be the same but the timing is different. Kevin sees it at the top of the swing while Mike sees it on the way down.

[juansky]

Does there appear to some agreement in these 2 videos about how Hogan rotated the club in the second part of the swing?

 

Sevam1's video:

 

Kevin's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJaTyC7tcA...feature=related

 

The hand/wrist action seems to be the same but the timing is different. Kevin sees it at the top of the swing while Mike sees it on the way down.

 

I think either way will work. If you do it from the top, you will have to hold the cupped position like Kevin explains. If you trip the shaft half way down, there is no need to hold but it's a bit trickier to do, more timing required. I'm sure Sevam will disagree on the "timing" word.

[moehogan]

Does there appear to some agreement in these 2 videos about how Hogan rotated the club in the second part of the swing?

 

Sevam1's video:

 

Kevin's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJaTyC7tcA...feature=related

 

The hand/wrist action seems to be the same but the timing is different. Kevin sees it at the top of the swing while Mike sees it on the way down.

 

 

HG,

 

In the video below, it appears that Mr. Hogan starts to trip the shaft sometime shortly after his left arm reaches the 9:00 position on the downswing. Prior to this point, the cup in his left wrist is still apparent. Also, the shaft does not appear to be blurred before 9:00 on the DS, indicating that the speed producing leverage caused by tripping or planing the shaft comes after this point. IMOP, Mike's explanation appears to be much closer to what Mr. Hogan actually did, at least on this swing.

 

 

MH