Mixing tee boxes

[Boomermike]

whites & blues

One of the courses I play best fits my game from the white tee boxes on the par 4s & 5s, but the par 3s are ridiculously short - all between 101 & 127 yards. I know I should take the four easy wedge shots, 2-putt, & be happy to get 4 pars in the round, but sometimes it's more fun to step back to the blues, which are more in the 145 - 170 range, and hit longer shots with a 6, 7, or 8 iron.

My question is...does anybody else who plays the white tees normally step back to the blues on a few holes, or is jumping between tee boxes during a round highly frowned upon? Not that I give a rat's hind-quarter who frowns upon it...just wondering if anybody else does it.

[Santee]

If you're out having fun, playing a practice round, whatever, hit from where you want. I've got no problem with it.
However, for a handicap score, this is not allowed. So, if you're maintaining a handicap, you shouldn't do that too often. The rules sort of get in the way.
I will say that I have never done that, and can't see myself doing it. No judgement on you, just personal preference.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Boomermike' date='26 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1267246317' post='2280426']
One of the courses I play best fits my game from the white tee boxes on the par 4s & 5s, but the par 3s are ridiculously short - all between 101 & 127 yards. I know I should take the four easy wedge shots, 2-putt, & be happy to get 4 pars in the round, but sometimes it's more fun to step back to the blues, which are more in the 145 - 170 range, and hit longer shots with a 6, 7, or 8 iron.

My question is...does anybody else who plays the white tees normally step back to the blues on a few holes, or is jumping between tee boxes during a round highly frowned upon? Not that I give a rat's hind-quarter who frowns upon it...just wondering if anybody else does it.
[/quote]

I usually play from the back tees but I'll do it every once and a while for certain courses. Sometimes because the design is flawed like a Par 4 where even a smoked driver and a 3 wood can't get you to the green no matter what (unless you are JB Holmes). Sometimes because of the weather conditions like when the wind is howling, I will adjust which tee I play from depending on whether I'm into the wind or downwind. I see it as no different then when they move the tees around on Tour dependent on the weather conditions. There is a point where it no longer becomes a test of golfing ability and just stupid. I'll leave the self-flagellation to the religious zealots.

[offapex]

as long as you're not holding up pace of play, go for it. i'm like you, par 4s and 5s the forward white tees are better for my length. but it's nice to mix things up on the par 3s and hit some mid irons in instead of just wedges all day. and since you're moving back your score would be more official (if that makes sense) than if you were playing from the blues and moved forward.

[Boomermike]

If you're out having fun, playing a practice round, whatever, hit from where you want. I've got no problem with it.

However, for a handicap score, this is not allowed. So, if you're maintaining a handicap, you shouldn't do that too often. The rules sort of get in the way.

I will say that I have never done that, and can't see myself doing it. No judgement on you, just personal preference.

 

I can totally see that...if you shoot from the blues, then report the scores on those holes as if you've played the whites, it can be viewed as sandbagging, because technically you're reporting scores as if you've played what are considered easier tees when in fact you've played more difficult ones. On the other hand - there are players out there who are comfortable swinging away with a 7-iron from 160 but struggle to finesse a wedge on from 110, and would actually be making the hole easier by moving back from the whites to the blues on some par 3s. That isn't me. I'm in my happy place with a wedge from 110....but if my swing is feeling good, I've had a couple of good range sessions that week, and my ballstriking is pure that day, I'd rather show off to my friends with the 7-iron from 160 (The golf gods are going to KILL me for writing that the next time I swing my 7 iron.)

[Mr. Herbert]

It's not a problem to do this, and you can even post your scores for handicap purposes provided you adjust the slope/rating for the change in distance. Use the chart at this link: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

Since you're moving back, you're slope and rating will increase slightly.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Mr. Herbert' date='27 February 2010 - 09:13 AM' timestamp='1267280026' post='2280824']
It's not a problem to do this, and you can even post your scores for handicap purposes provided you adjust the slope/rating for the change in distance. Use the chart at this link: [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/"]http://www.usga.org/...Manual/Rule-05/[/url]

Since you're moving back, you're slope and rating will increase slightly.
[/quote]


Mr. Herbert, I followed your link, and the adjustment possibilities are good to know.

I have played from "mixed" tees twice to my knowledge. I generally play from the whites, but on one occasion I was playing from the blues with a friend, and I had the honor at a tee where the two tees were close, and I absentmindedly hit from the whites as is my habit. When my friend teed up after me, I immediately realized I was wrong, and penalized myself for hitting from the wrong place and hit over again from the blues.

On another occasion, ironically at TPC Sawgrass, I was having a round that I wasn't proud of and decided to hit from the pro tees on the 17th hole just for the experience of it. (I think it's around 135 yards instead of around 100 -- not much of a sacrifice.)

If I understand the chart you pointed out, whether the adjustment is appropriate depends on your intention. If you make a mistake as to where you tee it up, as I did in the first situation I described, it seems to be a penatly situation. If you decide to use a different tee, it seems like there's no penalty but a slope/rating adjustment is in order.

On the occasion when I deliberately decided to hit from the back tee, I didn't know that I could make an adjustment, but fortunately my score was too high to have it count in my handicap calculation anyway.

Nevertheless, assuming I'm right in my interpretation about intent, this is good to know.

[Tanner25]

Great, idea. Too, often we play the sets of tees we are supposed to, instead of
adjusting the lengths to have fun. as other suggested - if it's related to a handicap and competition etc not a good idea.

[mark m]

Good post from Mr Herbert.

The chart can be very helpful for this purpose and for other another problem that is common - which is when a course sets the tee markers so that the overall course distance isn't close to the listed rated distance. This has been covered in many other posts in this forum. (Then you should make an adjustment to the ratings before posting your score.)

Boomermike: Another thing you could do is have the pro/manager print you off a copy of the ratings that are in the handicap computer. Each hole & tee choice has a rating. Then you could do the math and calculate what the rating should be [i]exactly[/i]. It will most likely be right on, or very close to, the number you would arrive at using the chart. (Distance is most important, but other factors are involved in ratings which may make for a difference.)


A somewhat new development: some courses have a separate card that show different tee combinations and the corresponding overall course distance with ratings so that players can play a specific yardage that they may enjoy. This adds choices without a multitude of tee markers on each hole.

Example:

Blue tee yardage = 6900 yards (74.4/130)
White tee yardage = 6400 yards (72.2/124)

Blue & White Combo = 6650 (73.3/127)

This card (not the scorecard) shows which tee to play from on each hole. (It may work out to be about 9 from Blue and 9 from White.) Then you can post a score correctly without having to do the math.

This way, the course is offering many more choices to it's customers than the number of tee boxes. The tough part is picking one that works well for your game or your group (if you all have to play the same tee box for some reason).










0

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='mark m' date='27 February 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1267294500' post='2281200']
The chart can be very helpful for this purpose and for other another problem that is common - which is when a course sets the tee markers so that the overall course distance isn't close to the listed rated distance. This has been covered in many other posts in this forum. (Then you should make an adjustment to the ratings before posting your score.)

[/quote]

Mark, are you saying that it's a players technical obligation to determine whether the tee markers set each day are "close to the rated distance"?

If there is a rule that requires this I'd appreciate it if you can point it out to me. From a practical perspective, the pace of play implications for having everyone determine where the tees are nominally set and where they are set the day of play are huge. And you'd have to do this every time you played, starting from the first tee, because you wouldn't know until the round was over how long the day's course actually was. And what constitiutes "close" to the rated distance, beyond which you should make an adjustment?

That sound you just heard was my head exploding. Please, someone, free me from this obligation!

[mark m]

Close = 22 yards overall course yardage

This has been discussed before in this forum. See section 15 in the Handicap Manual:

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-15/"]http://www.usga.org/...Manual/Rule-15/[/url]

Anyway, the yardage question in short: what matters is overall course distance should be within 22 yards of the listed distance. Individual hole yardages can vary - they have some forward and some back - the total just needs to even out. (Obviously, you can't place the tee markers at the yardage plate every day or those areas would get beat up in a hurry.) All the good superintends know what they are doing and have a plan in place. (Also - holes are measuered to the center of the green. And the hole locations tend to be moved around with a set plan as well.)

I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you are playing a course often that is not following the procedures in section 15 - and you are posting scores.

Let's take a scenario where a course has the majority of the tee markers placed well forward of the yardage markers so that the overall course distance is considerably less than the overall course yardage as listed on the scorcard. As you know, each distance has a corresponding rating. You wouldn't want to post scores from a rating that you are not really playing. This would probably make your handicap inaccurate. So what to do?

You could mention it to the Pro. But it might not go over to well. Will he pass it on to the Superintendent? Hard to say. Who sets the tee markers? The rangers or the grounds crew? Sometimes it's best to to make the adjustment on your own - do the math - and post the score. If it's your home track tell him what you are doing and why. They will most likely make the correct adjustments in the future.

I agree with you that you wouldn't know in advance of play if there was a problem like this. So you wouldn't be pacing the difference on each hole to see if it came out correct or not. Guessing about it after wouldn't be very accurate either. That's why I would only say something if this was my home course and it was repeatedly happening. Most of the time this is not a concern as the superintendent is on top of things.

We had big problems with this at my home track about 10 years ago. (That super is now gone.) The group I played with refused to play where they were setting the markers - way up on about every hole. That's not what we paid for. We knew it would drop our handicaps as well. So we played from the yardage plates. Others in the club didn't like that as they were putting themselves at a disadvantage and thought we should be equally as foolish. Thank goodness we don't have that problem anymore.

Good superintendents make all the difference. I have a lot of respect for those guys. They have to be good at so many things. We're fortunate to have a good one.

Does this make sense?

[Sawgrass]

Thanks for your very comprehensive answer.

Yes, it makes perfect conceptual sense, but after reading the section 15 you pointed me to I still don't see that it is explicitly the player's responsibility to make the adjustments to slope. I easily understand the value of balance in regard to distance, and I understand why you and your group challenged the layout of your own course since it artifically lowered your handicaps.

With all that in mind though, I still don't personally feel obligated to go through all the measurements and calculations. If I knew that my ignoring all that was a violation, I'd change my behavior -- but not without complaining to the USGA about the ridiculous burden they were putting on players that struggle to finish a round in 5 hours on a slow course as it is.

I also note that very few people I meet even adequately understand ESC, so this course-length math seems to be unlikely to be adopted by the masses even if it is a requirement.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, a couple of courses in our area have 'mixed tees' on the card. This is where you play a fixed mixture of white and blue tees (defined on the card), and that 'set of tees' has its own rating.

I don't know how common that is, but it is an interesting idea.

dave

[mark m]

I agree with you. It is not a requirement for the player. This is the responsibility of the course managers.

It is good to be aware of it however. You can use it if you need to. You can also work with others to correct problems and maintain the integrity of the handicap system if that is your desire. I got involved with all these issues as a member of the Board of Directors at my club. We had some course employees that were not commited to following these guidelines. (You can't control what others do.) A player can do everything right, but if the course is not playing to it's rating the majority of the time, then player's handicaps will be inaccurate.

I just wanted to make others here aware that there is something that they can do about it if they see the same thing happening.

The chart in section 5 can be useful for other things as well. For instance, our Pro hosts a tournment each fall - the course is set up at unrated tees around 7600 yards (and a rating around 77+). This allows the Committee to post scores for this event.

[Sawgrass]

Nice job describing and promoting all this, Mark.

[Johnny]

for handicap purposes during the a round I play from all the same color tees..regardless.

Now from round to round, I'll play the tips,blue,whites and even ladies. It's good to mix it up and use different clubs.

[bazinky]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='27 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1267308479' post='2281647']
FWIW, a couple of courses in our area have 'mixed tees' on the card. This is where you play a fixed mixture of white and blue tees (defined on the card), and that 'set of tees' has its own rating.

I don't know how common that is, but it is an interesting idea.

dave
[/quote]

I've played a couple of times on courses that had "mixed" tees on the cards as well. Personally, I think it's a absolutely brilliant idea, especially on courses that have extreme differences in yardages between sets of tees. I always hate seeing a course that has 600-700 yard differences between tee boxes, which seems to happen on a lot of public courses. I feel like I'm having to pick between playing the senior tees and the tips ...