Making a dedicated switch to persimmon woods this season

[dan360]

I would appreciate the help in picking the weapons

Well, after playing golf for awhile I've come to realize two very important things about my game.

1. It is not what it used to be. lol
2. My biggest weakness is the driver.

I've been playing a very nice 460cc driver (Mizuno MP600) for a couple years now, and before that had a near decade long love affair with the R510TP.

As great as each of them is, I can't help but remember one thing. The best drives I have ever hit, in my life, were with smaller drivers. I have struggled with consistency for about 10 years off the tee; consequently that is right around the time I switched from my old TaylorMade "Pittsburgh Persimmon" driver and went 'oversize...' Just on a hunch I took my old TM to the range this week and hit balls on strings all afternoon....with a DG shaft I was probably giving up 25 yards so my Mizuno but 250 in the fairway is much better than 275 in the trees.

Fairway wood-wise my lil bitty Callaway S2H2 is pretty good, and switching to a persimmon fw wouldn't be much of a change, other than feel & sound. The black Louisville Niblicks look very nice....

I have been looking at persimmon woods with interest for a very long while. Currently I have a very nice matched set of MacGregor M65W 1,3,4,5 hanging around that could use a refinish/reshaft, but for the price that would cost, I could probably upgrade to something else.

I've checked out the Louisville and Joe Powell offerings....leaning towards the Louisville, FWIW. They seem to offer a more modern shaft selection.

Pure Impact Custom Golf appears to offer the Louisville heads in a wide variety of shafts, everything from the stock offerings to the Matrix TP-7.....anyone have experience with Pure Impact?



So, any advice would be appreciated. Thanks all!

dan formerly dl5treez

[cwbrion]

Interesting decission to revert back to persimmon. I believe Louisville Golf to be the leader in persimmon in the modern era as they have the most experience. I am getting ready to go old school as well. I am gonna revert back to my Spalding Tour Edition blades with Scandium Eagle One shafts, but not until I get the heads refinished.

[drewspin]

IMHO, The most important thing in picking a persimmon driver now is to match it with the ball you will be using.

Unless you generate a LOT of clubhead speed, the modern low spin ball is going to be a poor fit with the lowest lofted persimmon woods (8-9 degrees). Look for a persimmon driver that has enough loft to launch the modern ball if you intend to go retro.

Another option instead of a driver is to use a Brassie off the tee.

[dan360]

Driver swing speed is 100-105.

I've been teeing off with the 3 wood so far this year probably guessing, oh, 80% of the time. Been playing more target oriented golf with our wet cruddy early spring, and honestly this approach has been a lot of fun.

The idea of persimmon was to be different mostly....the distance trade off to me is well worth the accuracy, plus the "cool factor" is, well....cool.

Has anyone used a persimmon head with one of the more modern graphite shafts? I'm speculating the variations in kick points, shaft torque, etc could really fine tune the wooden clubhead's normal behavior. Definitely not as easy to switch them out I'd suppose, so shaft ho'ing would be out of the question...???...

[olegolfer]

There are a few issues to consider when installing graphite on persimmon drivers.

If installing on the older drivers e.g. Macgregor, Hogan etc. you will loose quite a bit of swingweight as
the difference in overall weight between the old steel shafts and graphite can be considerable. The
solution is to add weight to the head with lead tape or talking the soleplate off and drilling a hole
which can be filled with lead tape or melted lead. The other option is to make the shaft longer than
original to get some of the swing weight back.

The next issue is the shaft size. Most of the older drivers used a .294 tape tip shaft as opposed to the
graphite shaft tip of .335, .350. etc. You would have to rebore the head to accept the different size.

Louisvile golf has some nice persimmon heads but I am not sure what the bore sizes they offer. More than
likely you can get some bored to accept the current graphite sizes.

My experience with graphite in persimmon is that the club has a slightly dead feel compared to steel
even after bringing the swing weight up to something acceptable e.g. D-3 , D-5

[dan360]

Thank you for the info on the tip sizes of older heads. That answers a lot of my questions.

I spoke with Josh @ Louisville Golf earlier--had it not been for miserable cell phone reception I would have placed an order today.

They drill the hosels out to fit .350 tips. I don't know if they use a sleeve or custom drill to use .335 tipped shafts.

The amount of information he gave me was awesome! I will be calling him back tomorrow.

[cwbrion]

Has anyone used a persimmon head with one of the more modern graphite shafts? I'm speculating the variations in kick points, shaft torque, etc could really fine tune the wooden clubhead's normal behavior. Definitely not as easy to switch them out I'd suppose, so shaft ho'ing would be out of the question...???...
[/quote]


Back in high school (early 90's) I played wifth a custom Louisville head and a x-stiff graphite shaft that is wrapped to look like wood. I also played the 3 wood to match. I hit them just as far as the early metal woods of the time. I don't really think shaft hoing is an option either....unless you are good at wrapping the twine around the hosel.

[dan360]

[quote name='cwbrion' date='08 April 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1270780662' post='2369052']



Back in high school (early 90's) I played wifth a custom Louisville head and a x-stiff graphite shaft that is wrapped to look like wood. I also played the 3 wood to match. I hit them just as far as the early metal woods of the time. I don't really think shaft hoing is an option either....unless you are good at wrapping the twine around the hosel.
[/quote]

According to Josh (Louisville marketing director) there are a few tricks to the whipping, where a halfway mechanically inclined person can do it themselves, but IMHGO it would be better off to just send it in to them, or a clubmaker of their recommendation, to have the shafts changed out.

A couple of the Louisville heads have an aluminum ferrule that allows shafts to be changed rather easily.


I can custom order any shaft option through them, OR....send them a shaft and they will install it in the head to my specs....

K...so I've picked the brand, now I just have to pick a shaft. This might be more difficult...

[dan360]

Update.

I have purchased an original Smart 10.5* with an AeroTech Steelfiber ss75.

I've also found a used but decent Smart 10.5 with a true temper shaft. Price was right, had to pick it up.

Will post pictures when everything shows up.

[txcountrylawyer]

Before I switched to graphite a number of years ago, my gamer was a real deal McGregor 693 with a 44 3/4 Apex 4 shaft. Great combination and it would get it out there. Still look in the bag now and then and see the matched set of 693's 1,2, 3 & 4 with the Apex 4 shafts and the full cord grips and miss those days.

[mshills]

You will need to do some experimenting with the ball - a high-spin ball is a MUST. No way are you going to find real balata balls in any kind of good condition. The Titleist Professional series works pretty well with persimmon, but even those will be tough to find that aren't in poor condition, out of round, etc.

My suggestion is to hit up lostgolfballs.com for a whole bunch of Nike One Platinum balls. I think that's the highest spinning modern ball that you're going to find, and if you really do want to play persimmon woods full-time, you will need the highest-spinning ball that you can find, especially if your driver SS is in the 100 mph range or a little more.

[Chip In]

cant wait to see the pictures!

[RobotDoctor]

I am going to be gaming a MacGregor M43T driver this year. My best driving days were with a MacGregor Toney Penna TPT Special driver and a Cleveland Classic DG43 driver. I am partial to classic MacGregors and own a few good drivers (M43T, 693, M85, M74, 945). This is a picture of my M43T, as well as my M85 and M75 (courtesy of persimmonpal).

[dan360]

Update...

My new Louisville is still in the works--I ordered a custom job that takes a few additional weeks. So far they've been a great company to deal with! Should see it sometime close to June 1st.

My used 'test' Louisville is here and I have been playing it for about 3 weeks. So far so good. I have been using a mixture of Professional 90, Srixon Z Star, Bridgestone B330RX, TM Penta, and Callaway Tour i(s) .

The Professionals feel oh so nice, but actually the best ball so far for total distance and control has been the TM Penta. The Callaway is close behind. The Srixon and Bridgestone are lacking just a bit.

I can hit 230-250 fairly consistent with this club, and it is working great on the shorter tighter courses where target golf is a premium.

The shaft is a True Temper Sensicore "Tour Flight" dark blue graphite that I have never seen before.

I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them.

[belmullet]

A previous post suggested the need to use the highest spinning balls one can with persimmon woods. I think this advice needs a little clarification.

1) I have found that contemporary persimmon drivers don't have this problem. I have a Louisville Golf SmartDriver and it has a normal trajectory (it's also 11 degree loft- normal loft for normal swingspeeds for this model).
2) Contemporary "high spin" balls are designed to spin a lot off the irons and wedges, but NOT off the driver. So I am guessing that they may not work that well with older persimmon drivers if achieving a higher trajectory is one's primary goal. I can't put my hands on it at the moment, but I think Golf Magazine did a ball test a while back that measured spin off the driver with different balls. I seem to recall that "softer" balls designed for slower swingspeeds may have had greater spin off the driver than premium balls. Don't take my word for it- I can't remember for sure.

In any case, hitting persimmons for me has required a variety of adjustments that vary with each club I pick up. I need to quit trying so many!

[Bella Woods]

I think belmullet is right, Re: advice clarification. It seems to me that the shaft has as much, or more, to do with the ball flight off
a persimmon wood as well. So does an individual players "attack angle".

The old high bend point, heavier steel shafts of yesteryear would have required a ball that would spin more (balata etc) for most
(not all) players to get the ball in the air decently.

Mid bend point shafts (graphite or otherwise) launch Pro V1X balls just fine for me and I don't want to hit the ball sky high anyway.

[Maxwell]

[size="4"][color="#8b0000"]Why go new?
I am perplexed by the notion that when one comes to ones senses and returns to "time honoured traditional clubs" one has to choose new. This myth can be found under the south end of a north bound horse!
I strongly urge you start looking for a good used set(driver, brassie & spoon) of early 50's MacGregor Tourney M43's or M85's or Tommy Armour 693's or 653's and find a kind caring knowledgeable old time club builder and ask him rebuild and refinish them for you. He will probably have 30 years plus of expereince, sometimes drink to excess, smoking just comes with the guy with a lovely wife who pulls no punches either.
Yea - it will cost you at least a couple of hundred dollars but they will be everything and more you ever dreamed of. The sound alone when you hit the ball right on the ******* screws will leave you smiling for the rest of the day. Your wife will chuckle to herself as you walk around the house with that "stupid smile" on your face. You may even get lucky that night. Do some research on who in your state still does this type of work. Go visit him, talk to him, buy him a coffee and tell him what your thinking of doing. Then write us all and let us all know where you are in your return to using "real mens" golf clubs. Have to go and wash the pool tarp![/color][/size]

[mshills]

[quote name='belmullet' date='23 May 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1274631117' post='2461784']
A previous post suggested the need to use the highest spinning balls one can with persimmon woods. I think this advice needs a little clarification.

1) I have found that contemporary persimmon drivers don't have this problem. I have a Louisville Golf SmartDriver and it has a normal trajectory (it's also 11 degree loft- normal loft for normal swingspeeds for this model).
2) Contemporary "high spin" balls are designed to spin a lot off the irons and wedges, but NOT off the driver. So I am guessing that they may not work that well with older persimmon drivers if achieving a higher trajectory is one's primary goal. I can't put my hands on it at the moment, but I think Golf Magazine did a ball test a while back that measured spin off the driver with different balls. I seem to recall that "softer" balls designed for slower swingspeeds may have had greater spin off the driver than premium balls. Don't take my word for it- I can't remember for sure.

In any case, hitting persimmons for me has required a variety of adjustments that vary with each club I pick up. I need to quit trying so many!
[/quote]

Interesting - I stand corrected! I thought that one would have real trouble with persimmon woods and the modern ball, but that makes sense that with the right shaft, most modern urethane premium balls will work just fine with a wooden driver.

I'm curious about fairway woods though - anyone have any feedback on those yet? I don't have any persimmon drivers or fairway woods around any more, unfortunately.

[dan360]

[quote name='Maxwell' date='23 May 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1274643693' post='2462077']
[size="4"][color="#8b0000"]Why go new?
I am perplexed by the notion that when one comes to ones senses and returns to "time honoured traditional clubs" one has to choose new. This myth can be found under the south end of a north bound horse!
I strongly urge you start looking for a good used set(driver, brassie & spoon) of early 50's MacGregor Tourney M43's or M85's or Tommy Armour 693's or 653's and find a kind caring knowledgeable old time club builder and ask him rebuild and refinish them for you. He will probably have 30 years plus of expereince, sometimes drink to excess, smoking just comes with the guy with a lovely wife who pulls no punches either.
Yea - it will cost you at least a couple of hundred dollars but they will be everything and more you ever dreamed of. The sound alone when you hit the ball right on the ******* screws will leave you smiling for the rest of the day. Your wife will chuckle to herself as you walk around the house with that "stupid smile" on your face. You may even get lucky that night. Do some research on who in your state still does this type of work. Go visit him, talk to him, buy him a coffee and tell him what your thinking of doing. Then write us all and let us all know where you are in your return to using "real mens" golf clubs. Have to go and wash the pool tarp![/color][/size]
[/quote]


I chose to go with a modern persimmon driver not for the nostalgia, but for the feel and the challenge.

I like the feel, the sound, and the way a wooden head plays. I don't need a genuine Macgregor, Penna, Armour, or others to get that appeal, although they are agreeably awesome sticks to play.

I have a couple Wood Bros. and some Macgregors around. The cost of having them all dolled up for play is more than what my Louisville set me back, though.

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='mrhills0146' date='23 May 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1274645759' post='2462126']
[quote name='belmullet' date='23 May 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1274631117' post='2461784']
A previous post suggested the need to use the highest spinning balls one can with persimmon woods. I think this advice needs a little clarification.

1) I have found that contemporary persimmon drivers don't have this problem. I have a Louisville Golf SmartDriver and it has a normal trajectory (it's also 11 degree loft- normal loft for normal swingspeeds for this model).
2) Contemporary "high spin" balls are designed to spin a lot off the irons and wedges, but NOT off the driver. So I am guessing that they may not work that well with older persimmon drivers if achieving a higher trajectory is one's primary goal. I can't put my hands on it at the moment, but I think Golf Magazine did a ball test a while back that measured spin off the driver with different balls. I seem to recall that "softer" balls designed for slower swingspeeds may have had greater spin off the driver than premium balls. Don't take my word for it- I can't remember for sure.

In any case, hitting persimmons for me has required a variety of adjustments that vary with each club I pick up. I need to quit trying so many!
[/quote]

Interesting - I stand corrected! I thought that one would have real trouble with persimmon woods and the modern ball, but that makes sense that with the right shaft, most modern urethane premium balls will work just fine with a wooden driver.

I'm curious about fairway woods though - anyone have any feedback on those yet? I don't have any persimmon drivers or fairway woods around any more, unfortunately.
[/quote]

mrhills0146:

[u]The difference in play between the "old ball" and the "new ball' is even less with the persimmon fairway woods[/u]. I would attribute it to the fact that;

1) The "spring effect" of the driver (which affects spin to a large degree with the modern ball) is for the most part
non-existent in modern fairway woods (Re: the head of the club is not big enough to allow for it).

2) The loft of the club itself. A 14 to 19 degree club (with no spring effect advantage) is a 14 to 19 degree club.
The main difference in the old and the new would be the shaft and the club head weighting. I would love for any manufacturer to stack their 5 wood up against my Peerless Pete 5 wood in a real test.

To be honest with you, I have several 4 & 5 woods that I think "stack up" to any club made today no matter what ball you want to play. And that includes some old PowerBilts that were made 50 years ago.

[belmullet]

Bella Woods,

I completely agree. I think there is so little difference between persimmon fairway woods and modern ones that it would be great to start a "trend" (how does one do that?) encouraging regular golfers to have one persimmon in their bag all the time. I had a brief e-mail conversation with Dave Wood (of Woods Bros. golf) and he emphasized this point strongly, arguing that modern metal fairway woods are designed too much for distance and aren't really even as good as the persimmons re: accuracy which is more important. I actually have a couple of friends trying persimmon fairways. They like them, but I'm not sure they will stay with them.

Maybe we should start a thread focusing on persimmon fairway woods, where people discuss their experience with design, particular models, shafts, etc.

[dan360]

[quote name='belmullet' date='24 May 2010 - 03:53 AM' timestamp='1274698412' post='2463199']

Maybe we should start a thread focusing on persimmon fairway woods, where people discuss their experience with design, particular models, shafts, etc.
[/quote]

Start one off and I'll add to the discussion!

[RobotDoctor]

Here are my 5 MacGregor drivers I currently own. These are (left to right: M75W EOM, M85W EOM, 945TW EOM, M43T, 693. I am planning on gaming the M43T this year.

From top to bottom these are: M43T, 693, M75W EOM, 945TW EOM, M85 EOM.

I plan on sending the 945TW and 693 to my clubsmith later this summer for refinish back to his special mahogany mix stain in satin finish.

[2OnePutt]

Sweet drivers Robotdoc!

[RobotDoctor]

I played today for the first time since last July. I gamed my MacGregor M43T and MacGregor 945TW 3-wood. I was also gaming Titlest Professional 90 golf balls.

Note: I live and play in Colorado at 5,000 feet elevation. The ball travels about 10% to 12% farther out here.

I played like caca scoring 84 on a par 72, 3 thin-topped drives due to poor ball position, 32 putts including 3 3-putts, poor irons shots on 6 or 7 holes, an absolutely perfect (and I mean perfect) 7 iron from 168 yards into a bunker, several poorly executed pitch shots and a bladed bunker shot. This was my first round of golf in 10 months and I have not picked up or swung a golf club during that time. My putting was poor (as it has been for several years) and my short game was horrible. My current mantra is that I get frustrated turning 75s into 84s and that is what I did today. I definitely left 8 or 9 shots on the course that I should never had left.

The 7 iron was from 168 in the fairway that just missed clearing a green side bunker (very thin driver that went 245 yards). For kicks, I hit a ProV1 from the same spot and hit it on the toe of the 7 iron and it went farther than the perfect shot with a Professional 90. Oh well, even the Professional 90 I play with the persimmons are shorter. But then again, the ball is 10 years old as well.

The driver is very solid. I still have to learn how to align it and how high to tee it up for optimal trajectory. I landed in 6/12 fairways and the 6 that I missed were because the drive went dead straight and not the draw I had been hitting so I was in the short cut or light rough. No tee shot was out of control and went where I had aimed and one tee shot was intentionally hit well right of the fairway because it is the safe miss area (away from water). I compared the M43T to my Titleist 983K for distance on a 545 yard, uphill par 5 (about a 4-5 degree incline). I made perfect contact with the Professional 90, driving the ball perfectly with a slight draw and it went around 270 yards, with a slight tail wind. I teed up my ProV1 and missed the drive a bit, toe-center but more towards the toe), slight draw and it was 25 yards farther. If I had struck the ball perfectly with the tailwind then I would bet I would have been 40-45 yards farther, maybe a little more. I will concede that the clubs and balls today are longer but the feel is not as good. Also keep in mind that I live and play in Colorado at 5000 feet elevation.

The M43T felt terrific. I miss persimmon. The poly finish around the repaired neck crack loosened a bit. I am concerned that in time that the neck will crack worse so I think I am going to retire my M43T. I will game the M43T that I am picking up from Fred.

To summarize, I know I can hit longer tee shots with the 983K but the feel of this club is "hollow" compared to the M43T. I wonder if I can gain some distance if I learn how to align the ball and how high to tee it up. Maybe a high spin modern ball would add a little more distance (since several experts do not believe the modern ball is too hard). I like the experiment with the M43T but am not so certain with the 945TW 3-wood I have. Off the tee the 3-wood was outstanding, I hit the only fairway I drove with it (around 245 yards). I did not have much success with the 3-wood off the tee. The Titleist PT15 3-wood I game is great off the tee and great from the fairway. I may go back to that 3-"wood." Anyway, persimmon is going to stay in my bag for a while, at least the driver. If I play a long course then I will break out the 983K and ProV1s.

I will say that hitting a ball on the screws is a feeling like nothing else in golf. Perfect.

[freddiec]

RobotDr,
Not sure how I missed your previous pictures, but wow, those Classics came out great. I especially like the M85 with the white lines. The M85 is my all time favorite. Yours is stunning. I've also found Pro V's with modern Titanium to be about 30 to 40 yards longer than persimmon (with the old Balata), maybe the gap would be closer if we were to use a balata straight out of the factory, I figure we've lost probably 10 yards anyway with balls made in the late 80s early 90s. Its a whole different game using the old gear. I've found you really need to adjust your driver swing, its really got to be tight and really on the mark. After gaming one you realize how different the game was back then. It much so much about fairways and greens then hitting the long ball. Its too bad you couldn't go out and buy brand new Balatas made today, that would really bring back the old magic feel, but even hitting Balatas that have discolored some still have a lot of life in them I've found. Good stuff!

[RobotDoctor]

Fred, the Titleist Professional is close to balata balls. The elastomer cover material is a little more firm than balata but the feel is close to being the same. Today I hit a Titleist Professional 90, Maxfli Elite balata, Callaway HX Tour and Titleist ProV1 with the M43T. The Professional and Maxfli Elite both felt the best followed by the HX Tour then the ProV1. I will stick with the Professionals and play 1/2 club more with the irons.

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' date='02 June 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1275518560' post='2483028']
I played today for the first time since last July. I gamed my MacGregor M43T and MacGregor 945TW 3-wood. I was also gaming Titlest Professional 90 golf balls.

Note: I live and play in Colorado at 5,000 feet elevation. The ball travels about 10% to 12% farther out here.

I played like caca scoring 84 on a par 72, 3 thin-topped drives due to poor ball position, 32 putts including 3 3-putts, poor irons shots on 6 or 7 holes, an absolutely perfect (and I mean perfect) 7 iron from 168 yards into a bunker, several poorly executed pitch shots and a bladed bunker shot. This was my first round of golf in 10 months and I have not picked up or swung a golf club during that time. My putting was poor (as it has been for several years) and my short game was horrible. My current mantra is that I get frustrated turning 75s into 84s and that is what I did today. I definitely left 8 or 9 shots on the course that I should never had left.

The 7 iron was from 168 in the fairway that just missed clearing a green side bunker (very thin driver that went 245 yards). For kicks, I hit a ProV1 from the same spot and hit it on the toe of the 7 iron and it went farther than the perfect shot with a Professional 90. Oh well, even the Professional 90 I play with the persimmons are shorter. But then again, the ball is 10 years old as well.

The driver is very solid. I still have to learn how to align it and how high to tee it up for optimal trajectory. I landed in 6/12 fairways and the 6 that I missed were because the drive went dead straight and not the draw I had been hitting so I was in the short cut or light rough. No tee shot was out of control and went where I had aimed and one tee shot was intentionally hit well right of the fairway because it is the safe miss area (away from water). I compared the M43T to my Titleist 983K for distance on a 545 yard, uphill par 5 (about a 4-5 degree incline). I made perfect contact with the Professional 90, driving the ball perfectly with a slight draw and it went around 270 yards, with a slight tail wind. I teed up my ProV1 and missed the drive a bit, toe-center but more towards the toe), slight draw and it was 25 yards farther. If I had struck the ball perfectly with the tailwind then I would bet I would have been 40-45 yards farther, maybe a little more. I will concede that the clubs and balls today are longer but the feel is not as good. Also keep in mind that I live and play in Colorado at 5000 feet elevation.

The M43T felt terrific. I miss persimmon. The poly finish around the repaired neck crack loosened a bit. I am concerned that in time that the neck will crack worse so I think I am going to retire my M43T. I will game the M43T that I am picking up from Fred.

To summarize, I know I can hit longer tee shots with the 983K but the feel of this club is "hollow" compared to the M43T. I wonder if I can gain some distance if I learn how to align the ball and how high to tee it up. Maybe a high spin modern ball would add a little more distance (since several experts do not believe the modern ball is too hard). I like the experiment with the M43T but am not so certain with the 945TW 3-wood I have. Off the tee the 3-wood was outstanding, I hit the only fairway I drove with it (around 245 yards). I did not have much success with the 3-wood off the tee. The Titleist PT15 3-wood I game is great off the tee and great from the fairway. I may go back to that 3-"wood." Anyway, persimmon is going to stay in my bag for a while, at least the driver. If I play a long course then I will break out the 983K and ProV1s.

I will say that hitting a ball on the screws is a feeling like nothing else in golf. Perfect.
[/quote]

Robot Doctor:

I too turn many mid to high 70s rounds into low to mid 80s rounds by doing what I would consider, "stupid stuff."
"Stupid stuff" includes not playing enough to be consistent and/or "efficient", along with all the usual "errors".

As far as distance goes when hitting the classic persimmon clubs, I think the majority of the difference between them and
your 983k, has to do with your shaft, the total weight of the club and the ball. I am assuming the shaft in your M43T is the
old (original) steel shaft. I have always found that with the old heavy (high bend point) steel shafts that it helps to have a
club that is (or appears to be) in an open position at address, both for distance and accuracy.

I will admit that I don't understand the need to play a balata (or any other wound ball) with these clubs, although I think I
do understand the reason why (nostalgia). In my opinion, a wound ball today can be no more than 60% of what it used to
be at this point in time (at least 8 to 10 years after they were discontinued). For 25 years I played the Titleist Tour balata, the
Titliest Professional, Tour Prestige, MaxFli Balata etc. and I do not honestly see a large difference between them (when they
were new) and the current Titleist Pro V-1s when it comes to feel or "hardness". I guess I should qualify that to some degree,
the old balatas were superior in feel for putting and shots around the green to anything made today. I think the reason why
people feel that the wound balls are so soft when hitting them today is because they are actually defective when compared to
what they used to be. They are probably 50 compression balls now. The Pro V-1s of today are the same compression of the old
balata golf balls.

It seems to me that any wound ball played today is only a shell of what it used to be. The old balata golf balls used to lose distance
when they were new sitting on the shelf for a few months! And the "balata portion" of a ball was only the cover, it affected
spin more than anything.

Robot Doctor, I don't know your age or golfing experience, and I do not mean to "preach", its only my opinion (based on my experience). For all I know you used to play the old balls "back in the day" also. I would be interested in hearing your
opinion on the golf ball.

Basically, I think it is important to make sure that your persimmons are the right loft and face angle for your
particular swing. Second, the shaft and ball should fit into this equation also. If all of these are specs are "tweeked" for you, you should not have to give up a huge amount of distance to your modern clubs, especially with the fairway woods.

What is the loft/face angle of your 945TW 3 wood? I wonder if the reason for the difficulty in hitting it is that it is strong lofted and/or
a closed face?

[RobotDoctor]

I can definitely agree with the analogy between the 983K and the M43T. The 983K is graphite shafted so I probably do swing it a little faster than the M43T with it's original steel shaft. I play an 8.5 degree 983K with a Grafalloy 3.5 stiff shaft at 44.5 inches.

As far as the ball, well, the reason I am playing the Professional 90 is mostly due to the spin rate of the ball and not compression. In my persimmon prime I was playing 100 compression balata golf balls so the compression of the modern ball does not worry me too much. Back in the day I loved playing a balata ball. I never purchased several dozen balls and stored them because of the fact that some balls lost compression in time. I started out playing Titleist DTs and switched to Titleist 384 Tour Balata balls when my skill level was able to play them and not destroy them prematurely. I never stored, or tried not to store, by clubs (and balls) in my car because I knew the excessive heat was not good for the balata balls. I played a maximum of 5 or 6 holes with a single balata ball, always switching when it became out of round. I also loved the feel of a balata ball off the face of the putter. I probably miss this feel more than anything in golf.

As far as loft, the loft on the M43T is original loft so I suspect it is 10 degrees, which is probably alright for me. At least on several drives the loft appeared to be just fine. Back in the day my specs for a persimmon driver (bore through) was 9 degrees, 10 inch bulge and roll, and between square to 1 degree open. When my handicap was a 2 and I played over 100 rounds a year, my driver was shafted with an X-100 shaft, 3-wood shafted with S-300 for a little more flex and lower kick point compared to the X-100. The 3-wood is 15 degrees loft, 10 inch bulge and roll, and sits square. I believe that the reason I did not hit the 3-wood well was more to do with my rusty swing rather than its setup. The setup for the 945TW 3-wood is nearly identical to the PT15 3-wood that is my gamer, and I kill the PT15.

Who knows, I might consider making the M43T my experimental persimmon and have it reshafted with a graphite shaft (as there are a couple of neck cracks I would like to get repaired if I am going to keep playing this driver). If I do this I will have to determine what graphite shaft I would want and see if my current clubsmith can do this type of alteration. Besides, I have another M43T in outstanding condition coming.

Thanks for the reply.



[quote name='Bella Woods' date='03 June 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1275619661' post='2485271']
[quote name='RobotDoctor' date='02 June 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1275518560' post='2483028']
I played today for the first time since last July. I gamed my MacGregor M43T and MacGregor 945TW 3-wood. I was also gaming Titlest Professional 90 golf balls.

Note: I live and play in Colorado at 5,000 feet elevation. The ball travels about 10% to 12% farther out here.

I played like caca scoring 84 on a par 72, 3 thin-topped drives due to poor ball position, 32 putts including 3 3-putts, poor irons shots on 6 or 7 holes, an absolutely perfect (and I mean perfect) 7 iron from 168 yards into a bunker, several poorly executed pitch shots and a bladed bunker shot. This was my first round of golf in 10 months and I have not picked up or swung a golf club during that time. My putting was poor (as it has been for several years) and my short game was horrible. My current mantra is that I get frustrated turning 75s into 84s and that is what I did today. I definitely left 8 or 9 shots on the course that I should never had left.

The 7 iron was from 168 in the fairway that just missed clearing a green side bunker (very thin driver that went 245 yards). For kicks, I hit a ProV1 from the same spot and hit it on the toe of the 7 iron and it went farther than the perfect shot with a Professional 90. Oh well, even the Professional 90 I play with the persimmons are shorter. But then again, the ball is 10 years old as well.

The driver is very solid. I still have to learn how to align it and how high to tee it up for optimal trajectory. I landed in 6/12 fairways and the 6 that I missed were because the drive went dead straight and not the draw I had been hitting so I was in the short cut or light rough. No tee shot was out of control and went where I had aimed and one tee shot was intentionally hit well right of the fairway because it is the safe miss area (away from water). I compared the M43T to my Titleist 983K for distance on a 545 yard, uphill par 5 (about a 4-5 degree incline). I made perfect contact with the Professional 90, driving the ball perfectly with a slight draw and it went around 270 yards, with a slight tail wind. I teed up my ProV1 and missed the drive a bit, toe-center but more towards the toe), slight draw and it was 25 yards farther. If I had struck the ball perfectly with the tailwind then I would bet I would have been 40-45 yards farther, maybe a little more. I will concede that the clubs and balls today are longer but the feel is not as good. Also keep in mind that I live and play in Colorado at 5000 feet elevation.

The M43T felt terrific. I miss persimmon. The poly finish around the repaired neck crack loosened a bit. I am concerned that in time that the neck will crack worse so I think I am going to retire my M43T. I will game the M43T that I am picking up from Fred.

To summarize, I know I can hit longer tee shots with the 983K but the feel of this club is "hollow" compared to the M43T. I wonder if I can gain some distance if I learn how to align the ball and how high to tee it up. Maybe a high spin modern ball would add a little more distance (since several experts do not believe the modern ball is too hard). I like the experiment with the M43T but am not so certain with the 945TW 3-wood I have. Off the tee the 3-wood was outstanding, I hit the only fairway I drove with it (around 245 yards). I did not have much success with the 3-wood off the tee. The Titleist PT15 3-wood I game is great off the tee and great from the fairway. I may go back to that 3-"wood." Anyway, persimmon is going to stay in my bag for a while, at least the driver. If I play a long course then I will break out the 983K and ProV1s.

I will say that hitting a ball on the screws is a feeling like nothing else in golf. Perfect.
[/quote]

Robot Doctor:

I too turn many mid to high 70s rounds into low to mid 80s rounds by doing what I would consider, "stupid stuff."
"Stupid stuff" includes not playing enough to be consistent and/or "efficient", along with all the usual "errors".

As far as distance goes when hitting the classic persimmon clubs, I think the majority of the difference between them and
your 983k, has to do with your shaft, the total weight of the club and the ball. I am assuming the shaft in your M43T is the
old (original) steel shaft. I have always found that with the old heavy (high bend point) steel shafts that it helps to have a
club that is (or appears to be) in an open position at address, both for distance and accuracy.

I will admit that I don't understand the need to play a balata (or any other wound ball) with these clubs, although I think I
do understand the reason why (nostalgia). In my opinion, a wound ball today can be no more than 60% of what it used to
be at this point in time (at least 8 to 10 years after they were discontinued). For 25 years I played the Titleist Tour balata, the
Titliest Professional, Tour Prestige, MaxFli Balata etc. and I do not honestly see a large difference between them (when they
were new) and the current Titleist Pro V-1s when it comes to feel or "hardness". I guess I should qualify that to some degree,
the old balatas were superior in feel for putting and shots around the green to anything made today. I think the reason why
people feel that the wound balls are so soft when hitting them today is because they are actually defective when compared to
what they used to be. They are probably 50 compression balls now. The Pro V-1s of today are the same compression of the old
balata golf balls.

It seems to me that any wound ball played today is only a shell of what it used to be. The old balata golf balls used to lose distance
when they were new sitting on the shelf for a few months! And the "balata portion" of a ball was only the cover, it affected
spin more than anything.

Robot Doctor, I don't know your age or golfing experience, and I do not mean to "preach", its only my opinion (based on my experience). For all I know you used to play the old balls "back in the day" also. I would be interested in hearing your
opinion on the golf ball.

Basically, I think it is important to make sure that your persimmons are the right loft and face angle for your
particular swing. Second, the shaft and ball should fit into this equation also. If all of these are specs are "tweeked" for you, you should not have to give up a huge amount of distance to your modern clubs, especially with the fairway woods.

What is the loft/face angle of your 945TW 3 wood? I wonder if the reason for the difficulty in hitting it is that it is strong lofted and/or
a closed face?
[/quote]

[Noncenx]

And I thought I was the only strange person who was thinking of a persimmon driver. A couple of years ago I picked up a 9, 13 & 15 Louisville Golf woods on eBay just for the heck of it, couldn't pass it up all three for $25. Never really messed when them on the course until this year though. Took the 9 wood out just to knock a few balls around with and was surprised at how well I was hitting it. I put it in my bag and have loved it. It has distance and height I can't match with any other club so it got me thinking about going all "wood" woods. I'm seriously kicking around the idea of an old school driver. Hard to believe after all the drivers I've been looking at I might be going retro.