LAG - Is this the KEY to great golf

[Legend McSniff]

Without it, is everything else we do a waste of time.

The more I look into this the more I am thinking that developing a swing with maximum lag is the only valid route towards achieving our maximum potential with regard to the golf swing.



As I see it, if you have a swing with a lot of lag it should deal with most of the issues we have with our swings i.e. forward leaning shaft at impact, flat left wrist, forward swing bottom, maxim power with minimal 'effort', inside swing path, consistent angle of club face at impact.



In short, all good players have a lot of lag, all poor players don't have enough.



Could this really be the 'key' to the golf swing?



Found a great article below addressing this, its quite lengthy but I will post a link to the full article with a few key points below.



"The transition is where all of the magic happens and if you are struggling, look there first. You can make great golf swings taking the club outside of the plane line, you can make great golf swings swinging to the inside. The same goes for clubface position at the top, left arm plane, shoulder plane, WHATEVER. But you CANNOT make a good golf swing that applies the club to the ball with authority unless the downswing is properly sequence. This is why Harvey Penick called it the "Magic Move."

Weight is constantly shifting in the golf swing, from even before the club is taken back at all. To create lag the secret is to make sure that the weight is being properly shifted FORWARD just before the club reaches its position at the top of the backswing. As this occurs a recentering of the center of the body will occur and the hands will automatically LAG behind the body.

THIS IS LAG! The hips shift the hips rotate, the hands FOLLOW or LAG behind. The DOG wags the TAIL. In a great golf swing the hands follow the movements of the body and have no choice but to delay their hit."



and

1. Weight begins shifting forward just before club reaches top of back swing.
2. The weight shift forward is a RECENTERING of your swing center that SHIFTS the hips FORWARD.
3. The hips rotate and clear, the legs fire through, the upper body follows, the hands follow, the clubhead follows last.

And



So I guess the conclusion is if you want to start lagging, stop thinking with your hands, stop thinking with your brain, and start feeling with that weight transfer and transition. All this said, transition might be the most important element of a golf swing, but you still have to remember to shift that weight back and load the club up–doesn't so much matter when, but it just has to get done. From there just make that powerful move through and man you will be cooking on the front burner.



Full article.



http://www.deeprough.com/index.php/2007/12/07/create-lag-golf-swing/





Looks like I'll be working on nothing but the TRANSITION this winter.

[Scottk]

It's hard to have a great transition if you don't have a solid backswing. If you suck the club head inside and rotate your forearms too much on the back swing, your going to have a problem with your transition and come over the top. I agree that transition is what can make or break the swing, but you still must focus on a solid backswing. Many believe that a great downswing is simply a reaction to a great backswing. Just a thought. Good luck.

[aliikane]

[quote name='Legend McSniff' timestamp='1291287350' post='2819274']
[size="3"]The more I look into this the more I am thinking that developing a swing with maximum lag is the only valid route towards achieving our maximum potential with regard to the golf swing.[/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]As I see it, if you have a swing with a lot of lag it should deal with most of the issues we have with our swings i.e. forward leaning shaft at impact, flat left wrist, forward swing bottom, maxim power with minimal 'effort', inside swing path, consistent angle of club face at impact.[/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]In short, all good players have a lot of lag, all poor players don't have enough.[/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]Could this really be the 'key' to the golf swing? [/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]Found a great article below addressing this, its quite lengthy but I will post a link to the full article with a few key points below.[/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[i][size="3"]"The transition is where all of the magic happens and if you are struggling, look there first. You can make great golf swings taking the club outside of the plane line, you can make great golf swings swinging to the inside. The same goes for clubface position at the top, left arm plane, shoulder plane, WHATEVER. But you [b]CANNOT[/b] make a good golf swing that applies the club to the ball with authority unless the downswing is properly sequence. This is why Harvey Penick called it the "Magic Move."[/size][/i]

[i][size="3"]Weight is constantly shifting in the golf swing, from even before the club is taken back at all. To create lag the secret is to make sure that the weight is being properly shifted [b]FORWARD[/b] just before the club reaches its position at the top of the backswing. As this occurs a recentering of the center of the body will occur and the hands will automatically LAG behind the body.[/size][/i]

[i][size="3"]THIS IS LAG! The hips shift the hips rotate, the hands FOLLOW or LAG behind. The DOG wags the TAIL. In a great golf swing the hands follow the movements of the body and have no choice but to delay their hit."[/size][/i]

[i][size="3"][/size][/i]

[i][size="3"]and[/size][/i]

[list=1][*][i][size="3"]Weight begins shifting forward just before club reaches top of back swing.[/size][/i][*][i][size="3"]The weight shift forward is a RECENTERING of your swing center that SHIFTS the hips FORWARD.[/size][/i][*][i][size="3"]The hips rotate and clear, the legs fire through, the upper body follows, the hands follow, the clubhead follows last.[/size][/i][/list][i][size="3"]And[/size][/i]

[i][size="3"][/size][/i]

[i][size="3"]So I guess the conclusion is if you want to start lagging, stop thinking with your hands, stop thinking with your brain, and start feeling with that weight transfer and transition. All this said, transition might be the most important element of a golf swing, but you still have to remember to shift that weight back and load the club up–doesn't so much matter when, but it just has to get done. From there just make that powerful move through and man you will be cooking on the front burner.[/size][/i]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]Full article.[/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[url="http://www.deeprough.com/index.php/2007/12/07/create-lag-golf-swing/"][size="3"]http://www.deeprough.com/index.php/2007/12/07/create-lag-golf-swing/[/size][/url][size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"][/size]

[size="3"]Looks like I'll be working on nothing but the TRANSITION this winter.[/size]
[/quote]

I disagree that only good players have a lot of lag and poor players don't have a lot of lag. Lag varies with all players. Some more, some less. Some longer, some shorter. Just cause you don't have as much lag as the bombers doesn't mean you are a poor player. There are plenty of players with less lag and hit the ball shorter and are great players.

[danattherock]

Lag is the key to good golf. Wish it hadn't taken me so long to figure that out.


Anyone that has not, should read "The Impact Zone" by Bobby Clampett


-Dan

[juststeve]

Lag is an effect, not a cause. Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.

Steve

[jmtigers]

thinking about lag in my swing does horrible things. I agree it is an effect.

[caryk]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
[b]Lag is an effect, not a cause.[/b] Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.
[/quote]
Totally agree. It's a natural effect of physics. Those that advocate to "maintain or hold the angle" coming into impact have no idea what lag is really all about.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='caryk' timestamp='1291302807' post='2819494']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
[b]Lag is an effect, not a cause.[/b] Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.
[/quote]
Totally agree. It's a natural effect of physics. Those that advocate to "maintain or hold the angle" coming into impact have no idea what lag is really all about.
[/quote]


agree with this....has anyone tried to hold off their release or even increase the wrist kok angle on the downswing consciously? When I have tried to do this out of curiosity in the past...makes me think I should have just stuck with tennis. Disaster!

[surefire]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
Lag is an effect, not a cause. Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.

Steve
[/quote]

I agree with this, but would you agree that although artificially creating or maintaining lag is bad, actively throwing it away is also bad?

So the real key comes from being passive and letting it be created and released naturally.
Just wanted to mention that, otherwise you can get people thinking you are encouraging the opposite extreme!

[juststeve]

I would agree that it is bad to consciously throw away lag. It is also unnecessary for anyone who was not deliberately maintaining their lag during the downswing in the first place.

In films of my swing I see my wrists set as I swing the club back with my hands, the wrist **** increases as I begin to swing forward with my arms, and that position is naturally maintained so long as my arms continue to accelerate. As someone said above, that is physics. That's what I see in films of my swing but I have never given it a moments thought when I swing the club. It's automatic for me and anyone else with a properly sequenced swing.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
Lag is an effect, not a cause. Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.

Steve
[/quote]

AWESOME!!!!!:good::good::good::good:

The more people understand this, the better their golf games will become, the better their swings will become...AND THE MORE LAG THEY WILL GET.

[varsityhacker]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1291307092' post='2819586']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
Lag is an effect, not a cause. Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.

Steve
[/quote]

AWESOME!!!!!:good::good::good::good:

The more people understand this, the better their golf games will become, the better their swings will become...AND THE MORE LAG THEY WILL GET.
[/quote]

So how do players like Sergio or Ben Hogan or Joe Durant increase their lag in the downswing if it is totally passive? Not disagreeing that lag is passive reaction caused by the proper sequencing of your body. However, there are players that can increase their lag on the downswing so what is causing it or how do they do it? Is it simply flexible wrists?

[misterlau]

someone contact Steve Stricker ASAP! j/k

[atlanta golfer]

I don't think that "maximum" lag is the answer, but not having enough is most definitely a major problem. This is pretty much the only thing my instructor has been working with me on. Trying to get a result where those hands are at the front pants pocket when impact occurs.

For me, I am not really conciously trying to create lag, but I am trying to stop the bad habit of getting overactive with the hands and arms. I will be looking good about half way down, and then just want to hit the ball.

I think the first step is to understand, and to see your own swing, then it is just a gradual process to be able to capture the "feeling" and repeat it.

I have made big strides the last year on this, and my scores show it. Still a ways to go though.

[juststeve]

Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve

[varsityhacker]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291316266' post='2819806']
Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve
[/quote]

Sergio stated in an article I read that if you want to hit the ball farther you need to increase your arm speed. Although he didn't explain how to do that.

[rok78]

[quote name='varsityhacker' timestamp='1291316634' post='2819818']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291316266' post='2819806']
Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve
[/quote]

Sergio stated in an article I read that if you want to hit the ball farther you need to increase your arm speed. Although he didn't explain how to do that.
[/quote]

Read an article that Sergio's feel is to pull his left arm straight down from the top while keeping it against his chest. He had no pivot feels in his downswing, just the arm movement and transferring weight from his right heel to his left.

Interestingly Hunter Mahan, another person known for his pivot, also has arm swing feels in his swing.

In the end, different feels for different people, getting the pictures and ball flight to look right is the endgame.

[Rohlio]

[quote name='varsityhacker' timestamp='1291313845' post='2819743']


So how do players like Sergio or Ben Hogan or Joe Durant increase their lag in the downswing if it is totally passive? Not disagreeing that lag is passive reaction caused by the proper sequencing of your body. However, there are players that can increase their lag on the downswing so what is causing it or how do they do it? Is it simply flexible wrists?
[/quote]

Incredibly flexible soft wrists with a well sequenced change of direction furing the late backswing early downswing. Oh and a reasonably string grip doesn't hurt either.

[caryk]

[quote name='varsityhacker' timestamp='1291316634' post='2819818']
Sergio stated in an article I read that if you want to hit the ball farther you need to increase your arm speed. Although he didn't explain how to do that.
[/quote]
IMHO, the answer lies in physics. Same principle with athletes who do the hammer throw. You're trying to accelerate an object ( i.e. clubhead as well as arms/hands) AWAY from your body as fast and as hard as you can. It's called centrifugal force.

[size="2"][b]Centrifugal force[/b] (from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin"]Latin[/url] [i]centrum[/i] "center" and [i]fugere[/i] "to flee") represents the effects of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia"]inertia[/url] that arise in connection with rotation and which are experienced as [b]an outward force away from the center of rotation[/b].[/size]

Any movement that interrupts that directed motion (like moving too much laterally) will diminish the force and speed you're trying to generate. The positions that we most associate with a powerful swing (forward shaft lean, flat left wrist and lag) are actually a consequence of centrifugal force applied to an object, in this case, the clubhead. If you try to create those positions artificially, you'll only defeat the natural physics of the swing. As an example, most golfers who flip tend to subconsciously pull their hands/arms inward during the downswing rather then let them extend outward as they naturally want to do while they're turning. The resulting "interference" pretty much kills any build up of speed you might have been able to create.

Once you understand how the physics of the swing work, things really begin to fall into place.

[TB07]

These players just to name a FEW do alright with out a whole lot of lag...
Mark omeara
And
Michelle Wie

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGicxcDNeN4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NGicxcDNeN4[/url]





[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIfMV4w_3c"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pBIfMV4w_3c[/url]

[atlanta golfer]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291316266' post='2819806']
Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve
[/quote]

I think this is a bit of a paradox --- you want the arms to swing fast, agreed, but HOW you cause that to happen is a different question. It needs to result from centrigual force as reaction to the pivot, and gravity, and not some type of arms driven over the top type move, if you get where I am coming from. Needs to be passive, not active. You can't "muscle" the ball out there, or at least, most of us can't, not under control, anyway.

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='atlanta golfer' timestamp='1291325722' post='2820090']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291316266' post='2819806']
Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve
[/quote]

I think this is a bit of a paradox --- you want the arms to swing fast, agreed, but HOW you cause that to happen is a different question. It needs to result from centrigual force as reaction to the pivot, and gravity, and not some type of arms driven over the top type move, if you get where I am coming from. Needs to be passive, not active. You can't "muscle" the ball out there, or at least, most of us can't, not under control, anyway.
[/quote]

Good question - I share it. Eager to see the responses!

[juststeve]

Atlanta:

We appear to agree that in order to strike the ball the arms must swing. Good so far.

As I see it there are two basic swing methods for making the arms swing. The one I was taught is to swing the arms actively in the direction of the target and allow the body to respond. The other is to allow the arms to respond to the pivot of the body. You seem to like the second method better. All I would say is both methods work.

If you like we can discuss the reasons I prefer my method to yours on another thread, at least for the vast majority of golfers, but that's really off the topic of this thread.

Steve

[rok78]

Alright, just playing devil's advocate because I believe pivot is very important and the primary mover on the downswing BUT...

An arms swing does not necessarily mean an over the top move. I can swing my arms without moving my body and lag the club. If you allow your wrists to act like hinges you can swing your arms down and through and the hands will lag behind the arms, with the club lagging behind the hands.

[TB07]

Although SOME people may feel like their body is moved by their arm/club movement or vice versa I believe in REALITY,in a good golf swing it works like this...

The Pivot starts the motion than slows down making way for the next component the hands/arms/club. So in reality for a REALLY GOOD golf swing both components work.
I think the question here is FEEL.


Maybe some have a good pivot action and need to feel like their arms/clubs dominate while others have a poor pivot and need to feel that the pivot dominates a little more.

[happyroman]

To me, the key is not necessarily to create maximum lag (which is a somewhat vague term and subject to numerous different interpretations). The key is to arrive at impact with the shaft leaning forward, a flat left wrist, and a relatively in-line condition between the left arm and the shaft (i.e., the club head must not have passed the hands).

In order for me to achieve these conditions at impact, I must have a well loaded backswing, a smooth transition, and a pivot driven swing where the arms and hands are passively responding to the centrifugal forces generated by the pivot.

[Jeff Evans]

Minimum LAG for both Maximum Distance AND Accurecy!
Lag angles are released LAG Pressure is maintained which creates a feel unique to the individual player. Release the pivot lag and the accumulator lag but maintain the lag pressure which will sustain the impact interval line of compression and the proper geometrical alignments.

[JDUB81]

[quote name='Jeff Evans' timestamp='1291351399' post='2820909']
Minimum LAG for both Maximum Distance AND Accurecy!
Lag angles are released LAG Pressure is maintained which creates a feel unique to the individual player. Release the pivot lag and the accumulator lag but maintain the lag pressure which will sustain the impact interval line of compression and the proper geometrical alignments.
[/quote]

A+ post right there!

[Professor D]

[quote name='caryk' timestamp='1291302807' post='2819494']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291299503' post='2819420']
[b]Lag is an effect, not a cause.[/b] Perform a proper well sequenced golf swing and you will have all the lag you can handle. Try to artificially create and maintain lag and you will slice the ball all day long.
[/quote]
Totally agree. It's a natural effect of physics. Those that advocate to "maintain or hold the angle" coming into impact have no idea what lag is really all about.
[/quote]

I can "hold off" my release pretty easily. So can Tiger Woods. Remember the "stinger"? He can also release earlier and hit the ball to the moon, when he wants. That's deliberate, and controlled by the wrists. But of course, the pivot can control the release also.

Having said that, many people will never be able to keep the shaft behind the left arm deep into the impact zone. The good news is that you really don't have to, to hit great shots. You just have to know that the bottom of your swing will be further back and adjust ball position accordingly. As a minimum requirement, which all have the ability to achieve, the handle should pass the sternum [b]before[/b] the clubface. You can produce wonderful ball flight with that and the appropriate ball position.

[Jeff Evans]

The clubshaft is seeking an in line relationship with the left arm!