LAG - Is this the KEY to great golf

[varsityhacker]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1291318069' post='2819858']
[quote name='varsityhacker' timestamp='1291316634' post='2819818']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1291316266' post='2819806']
Atlanta:

Unless you are including hands when you talk about arms I don't see how being active with the arms can cause you to throw away your lag. To the contrary it is the speed in my arms that maintains my lag in the forward swing.

No matter how you choose to power your swing the arms must swing freely and fast. In fact the faster they swing the further the ball will go.

Steve
[/quote]

Sergio stated in an article I read that if you want to hit the ball farther you need to increase your arm speed. Although he didn't explain how to do that.
[/quote]

Read an article that Sergio's feel is to pull his left arm straight down from the top while keeping it against his chest. He had no pivot feels in his downswing, just the arm movement and transferring weight from his right heel to his left.

Interestingly Hunter Mahan, another person known for his pivot, also has arm swing feels in his swing.

In the end, different feels for different people, getting the pictures and ball flight to look right is the endgame.
[/quote]

Rok thanks for that post. I just tried it and I liked the feel and look of my angles (lots of lag). I will try that tonight and film it to see how it looks.

[varsityhacker]

[quote name='caryk' timestamp='1291320425' post='2819939']
[quote name='varsityhacker' timestamp='1291316634' post='2819818']
Sergio stated in an article I read that if you want to hit the ball farther you need to increase your arm speed. Although he didn't explain how to do that.
[/quote]
IMHO, the answer lies in physics. Same principle with athletes who do the hammer throw. You're trying to accelerate an object ( i.e. clubhead as well as arms/hands) AWAY from your body as fast and as hard as you can. It's called centrifugal force.

[size="2"][b]Centrifugal force[/b] (from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin"]Latin[/url] [i]centrum[/i] "center" and [i]fugere[/i] "to flee") represents the effects of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia"]inertia[/url] that arise in connection with rotation and which are experienced as [b]an outward force away from the center of rotation[/b].[/size]

Any movement that interrupts that directed motion (like moving too much laterally) will diminish the force and speed you're trying to generate. The positions that we most associate with a powerful swing (forward shaft lean, flat left wrist and lag) are actually a consequence of centrifugal force applied to an object, in this case, the clubhead. If you try to create those positions artificially, you'll only defeat the natural physics of the swing. As an example, most golfers who flip tend to subconsciously pull their hands/arms inward during the downswing rather then let them extend outward as they naturally want to do while they're turning. The resulting "interference" pretty much kills any build up of speed you might have been able to create.

Once you understand how the physics of the swing work, things really begin to fall into place.
[/quote]

Great stuff here, we use terms like over the top which most hacks do but really it's just a result of them swinging or pulling the club into their bodies.

[V-twin]

That's good to know all I practice and focus on is my backswing it makes or breaks my complete swing.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Jeff Evans' timestamp='1291351399' post='2820909']
Minimum LAG for both Maximum Distance AND Accurecy!
Lag angles are released LAG Pressure is maintained which creates a feel unique to the individual player. Release the pivot lag and the accumulator lag but maintain the lag pressure which will sustain the impact interval line of compression and the proper geometrical alignments.
[/quote]



[quote]The secret of golf is not a position, it's a PRESSURE!

[b]LYNN BLAKE[/b][/quote]

[quote][b]SUSTAIN THE LAG[/b]! That is, Hitting or Swinging, losing Lag Pressure not only produces Quitting but jeopardizes Rhythm and destroys the Basic Motion – among a host of other disruptions.

[b]HOMER KELLEY[/b][/quote]

[wmblake2000]

What does "lag pressure" mean?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1291395365' post='2821482']
What does "lag pressure" mean?
[/quote]

Here is Ben Hogan's description of pressure points in the hands. In particular, the second half of the video describes lag pressure through the butt pad of the right forefinger, or what Homer Kelley described as Pressure Point #3. Jeff's PBS training devise helps in "feeling" this lag pressure through PP #3. Lose the pressure, and lose power, control, and rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksPOfvuQWZA

[wmblake2000]

Thanks....

[peacedog]

So if the downswing is the reaction of the backswing. How should a proper backswing look to gain max lag naturally?

[TB07]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1291481153' post='2823093']
So if the downswing is the reaction of the backswing. How should a proper backswing look to gain max lag naturally?
[/quote]

I think the downswing is sometimes a by product of our back swing. A lot of times we can have a poor back swing position that just may not allow us to get down properly. However you can make a very solid back swing and still not get the downswing correct as well.

[Eag1e]

When I had my best ball striking day in a long time last month, all I was paying attention to was:

-slow backswing to ensure shoulder turn
-completely stop everything at the top
-start the body as much as physically possible before letting the arms go.

Made my ballflight higher and straighter and everything you could want. Consistent as could be.

Unfortunately something made me think it was a good idea to ask if what I was doing was alright, and my instructor had me get away from it immediately and I went back to hitting the ball like s***. Never could get back to where I was that day. And, not surprisingly, I haven't wanted to hit a ball in 5 weeks. Hopefully I can get out this week and get back to that awesome state.

[GJS007]

If all of you want to know about how to properly obtain lag in a golf swing just watch and listen to Eric Jones, the distance teacher.

[url="http://targetcenteredgolf.com/instruction/driver/training-videos/secret-to-lag/"]http://targetcentere.../secret-to-lag/[/url]

[sblack5]

or we could listen to Monte....since he is a former world long drive champ and may know a thing or two on how to hit it pretty far

[ALIF]

Good call sblack. I know Monte isn't impressed with lag. It's the result of a well sequenced swing, not a goal to attain.

[Dudemanbrother]

Sergio is talking about the method taught by Sam Byrd to Ben hogan and passed along to instructors like Claude Harmon and a man who worked with Sergio in the past, steve wozeniak. Tom tomasello also came to this conclusion later in life.
It starts with the hands being placed on the club so that your wrists can be fully uncocked. From the shaft parallel to the ground, the right arm hinges straight up. This fully rotates your shoulders and fully cocks the wrists.
From the top, throw the hinged right forearm down and out on plane like you were karate chopping the club head into the ground behind you. Your body reacts to the intent. You cannot throw the club behind no matter how hard you try. It loads your left side, flattens the swing plane, and squares the club face without any conscious body movements.
Your body reacts to, not dictates, the movements.
Swing toward first base and the ball flies straight toward the pitcher with a little drawing action at the end.

[Wasted_Talent]

In his book Monte spoke of times where his lag cost him big tournaments. He is not impressed with lots of lag in my opinion.

[mukster]

[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1369660363' post='7114034']
That is Montes opinion... Thousands of other teachers who live by lag
[/quote]

I don't believe what Saint308 said is Monte's opinion. I believe he says that trying to teach lag per say is not a good thing. Lag happens as a result of good swing mechanics.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1369661562' post='7114110']
We are all different and unique. Try telling Sergio a lot of lag is bad... Some people benefit from a lot, others not so much. Telling everyone lag is bad.. Isn't the way to go. For the huge caster, introducing lag might be a huge benefit. One of the biggest and most successful online golf programs ... Rotary golf... Is all about lag. That program has 40k in member numbers. Again, a individual thing
[/quote]

Funny you use Sergio. He is trying to get rid of some of his.

You are missing the point. Obviously lag is not bad. Creating it as a primary focus is what is bad. If you have issues in your swing that don't allow lag to happen, or in many cases, force your body to throw it away as a means to hit the ball, focussing on lag is a disaster and that's not an opinion.

You take someone who has all sorts of arm over run and have them focus on lag, they at chasing windmills. You tell someone who has lots of reverse tilt and lateral body movement toward the target to chase lag, they are going to get the shanks.

Tens of Thousands of people try to do things to close the club face when they hit a pull slice, and thousands of instructors (including Hank Haney) teach it...that doesn't make it right.

The point is lag is not the key to good golf. I know more good players who don't have much than players who focused on that.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1369664078' post='7114246']
We are unique.. Case by case.
[/quote]

Exactly right

[coldmark]

First of all, Monte knows 1000 times more than me about the golf swing, but to argue that you don't need "much" lag leaves behind the 90% of golfers who dont have any, or worse yet, have their hands behind the ball at impact. For these golfers, like I was, I believe it can help to pull the handle towards the left thigh with the left hand on the downswing. It has certainly helped me. For some, it helps to put the chicken before the egg. First feel the hands ahead at impact, and then adjust your body to support that position. It's not the only way to learn hands ahead at impact, but for me it was.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='coldmark' timestamp='1369664667' post='7114286']
First of all, Monte knows 1000 times more than me about the golf swing, but to argue that you don't need "much" lag leaves behind the 90% of golfers who dont have any, or worse yet, have their hands behind the ball at impact. For these golfers, like I was, I believe it can help to pull the handle towards the left thigh with the left hand on the downswing. It has certainly helped me. For some, it helps to put the chicken before the egg. First feel the hands ahead at impact, and then adjust your body to support that position. It's not the only way to learn hands ahead at impact, but for me it was.
[/quote]

Again, that's not my point. Lag is good, it's produces good things when it's a RESULT of a good golf swing.

My point is focussing on lag primarily is often a dangerous approach and often produces less.

If someone has a cough, you don't tell them to hold their breath. If someone is limping, you don't tell them to walk straight. You figure out why the lag isn't there and fix that.

[GJS007]

What Eric Jones is simply stating is that for those of us who need more distance you can achieve this without consciously swinging harder, how many of us swing harder to try and achieve more distance and actually end up casting the club, or get a pull hook. All Eric is explaining in this video is how to properly carry lag into impact by using core rotation for more distance without swinging harder,just faster. Trust me when you release the club too soon by not having enough lag you will never ever be a consistent ball striker.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='GJS007' timestamp='1369667647' post='7114498']
What Eric Jones is simply stating is that for those of us who need more distance you can achieve this without consciously swinging harder, how many of us swing harder to try and achieve more distance and actually end up casting the club, or get a pull hook. All Eric is explaining in this video is how to properly carry lag into impact by using core rotation for more distance without swinging harder,just faster. Trust me when you release the club too soon by not having enough lag you will never ever be a consistent ball striker.
[/quote]

I have no problem with the video. Eric is a fellow LD competitor.

I strongly disagree with your comment about not having enough lag and consistent ball striker. Over the years I have come across a lot more consistent and straight hitters who throw it away too early than guys who force lag on their swings.

Lack of lag is not the core issue...and lack of lag is not releasing the club too soon, it's releasing it improperly.

[GJS007]

Monte, the article is about carrying lag into impact, not forcing lag, you don't force anything in golf.
The longer you can carry lag into impact and then properly release the club at the bottom of your swing, you will gain more distance by increasing club head speed.
You don't have to swing harder, just swing smarter.

[GJS007]

Just seems like the best of the best lag swings are wide open club face prior to impact.. Makes the hands go way ahead , club head back

Chris, sounds like your left wrist is breaking down during the downswing. ( right hand golfer )
Try keeping your left wrist flat throughout your swing.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='GJS007' timestamp='1369669922' post='7114660']
Monte, the article is about carrying lag into impact, not forcing lag, you don't force anything in golf.
The longer you can carry lag into impact and then properly release the club at the bottom of your swing, you will gain more distance by increasing club head speed.
You don't have to swing harder, just swing smarter.
[/quote]

Like I said, no problem with Eric. My issue is lag being the be all end all.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='GJS007' timestamp='1369670808' post='7114716']
Just seems like the best of the best lag swings are wide open club face prior to impact.. Makes the hands go way ahead , club head back

Chris, sounds like your left wrist is breaking down during the downswing. ( right hand golfer )
Try keeping your left wrist flat throughout your swing.
[/quote]

That is my issue and what I am talking about. You can't just keep your left wrist flat. That is a result. The left wrist breaks down for a reason and " not trying to keep it flat" is not one of them.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1369671853' post='7114802']
Good points monte... I love your honesty... Great posts
[/quote]

Thanks Chris. I am not trying to be a dik, I have just seen so many people ruin their swings in this manner.

[GJS007]

Chris, you basicly have to find a way of how not to release the club so early in your downswing, an early release is a killer not only for distance but also for accuracy.
Right now your mainly swinging with your arms, when you start swinging using your legs and upper body you will feel and see the difference.
It will be like a light bulb lighting up in your mind and you'll be saying to yourself, wow now I get it. Use the big muscles not the small muscles.
Right now your swinging mainly with your arms, which translates to an early release.
At least you know what your problem is, all you have to do now is fix it.

[Jim Waldron]

Lots of over-analysis type thinking in this thread. The solution is Awareness - not positions and not the concsious mind doing this or doing that with this or that body part. Lag is of many varieties - wrist c0ck lag, right wrist bend angle lag, arm lag, body pivot lag. And you need all of them to hit a good shot. Lag is the result of good mechanics, not an end unto itself, as Monte keeps telling us.

Wrist c0ck throwaway is a symptom of the Hit Impulse and that impulse is caused by being Ball-Bound, and believing that the intention in golf is to "hit the ball with the clubhead". It should be "send the ball to the Target".

[capt.murphy]

trying to create or maintin lag and force a flat left wrist is going to be a disaster swing. proper grip and setup and shifting lower body toward the target at the start of the downswing will automaticly creat all the "lag" you need.