Driver length...

[qwertyb22]

Anyone have objective data?

Dear Equipment Hos,
I've not been having the best year so far... My driving has really not been near what it was last year, and like every good GolfWRX member, my solution has been to try 100 different driver setups! Ultimately, I've come to the realization that I had bit off a bit too much shaft for my swing, and I'm thinking of switching back to an Aldila NV which for me, seems to work pretty well (yes, I've hit a bunch on the monitor and supposedly the Voodoo is my shaft, but it doesn't seem to translate on the course). Heres my dilemma now: I took my 905R with NV at 45", 907D2 with Proto By You at 45", 909D3 with Voodoo at 45" and a 907D2 with NV at 44.5" that I had just purchased off the bay to the range today. Standing over the 907D2 with NV at 44.5", the shorter club looked a whole lot 'friendlier' to me - like I could make a nice swing and really control the clubface. Since the range I was at only marks up to 220 yards, I'd be guessing if I said I hit one any further than the other. But, hitting the 44.5" shaft, I swear I was putting that one out there a bit longer and straighter than the others - not sure if I was just catching them more squarely in the sweet spot, or if I'm just trying to convince myself I was hitting it better.

I know that many of you play shorter drivers, and I'm wondering if anyone has any objective data ie. swing speeds, ball speeds, dispersion, etc. with different shaft lengths? Or, if anyone knows how much trimming the 0.5" affects the swing weight (which incidentally felt light, but not ridiculously) or shaft flex. A quick search didn't yield much info for me...

[schwollo]

Shorter shaft equals more time in the short grass. I playine at 44.5 and hit the sweet spot more. Also since it is shorter I can make a more upright down. The line swing. Half inch might change it one or half a swing weight? There is a reference for swing weight in the wrx workshop section.

[gdb99]

I play my driver at 44.5". If I try to play something longer, like my new TL310 at 45.25", I'm not as consistent, missing a lot more fairways. I don't have any data, but next time at the range, tape up the face of your drivers, and see which one gives you more center face hits.

As far as cutting it down, 1/2" equals 3 swingweight points, it might make the shaft slightly stiffer. I put a strip of lead tape along the back of the head to bring the swingweight back up.

[ballmark]

Good advice above. Shorter shaft should help keep you on plane. If your swing plane is consistant you will hit the ball in the sweet spot consistantly, which will keep you in the fairway. I am as guilty as most concerning distance. However, the low score wins unless your carrying drivers around at the Remax events.

[qwertyb22]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm going to grab both of the 907 drivers and take a ride to Golf Galaxy this week and try to hit them both on the monitor - it should be a really fair comparison between the NV and By You shafts, I think. I'm really curious to see how this pans out. While I'm definitely no long drive champ, the thought of giving up Xmph in clubhead speed or 3X yards every swing I make has me wondering if I'll actually see a tighter dispersion or better face contact. I'll have to try taping the faces too like gdb99 suggested. Still, if anyone has any data, I'd love it see it!

[willard1523]

The last time I hit on a launch monitor I was between 93 and 98 swing speed with both 45 1/2 inch driver and 43 1/2 inch 3 wood. Hit the three wood dead center almost every time. Another tidbit, yesterday at the range I took a couple of my old practice drivers, a mizuno mp-001 with whiteboard 73x @45 1/4, and an adams 9015d with dynamic gold s300 @44 1/4. I hit the adams about 5-10 yards further carry and about 10-15 yds better dispersion. I think shorter drivers help people with a quick tempo. I'm pretty sure going shorter will help your dispersion and you may find, like me, that you actually increase distance.

[3step]

Here is your objective data-

The majority of golfers, 60 to 70%, have negative or descending angles of attack with their driver club. The longer the overall length of the driver, the more difficult the club is to swing. Thus- for these golfers- a driver shorter than 45" will be easier to swing, make solid contact, and control for accuracy.

For the 20 to 25% of golfers that have an ascending angle of attack with their driver club, there is zero benefit to a shorter length than 45". These golfers have the advantage of a golf club that is in a high performance position at impact, easy to make solid contact, easy to control, creates a good launch angle, imparts lower spin, and will yield close to optimum in both carry and roll.

Golfers with a neutral angle of attack are somewhere in the middel of these two groups.

3step

[qwertyb22]

Interesting, 3step. Where does that information come from? And why wouldn't driver length matter as much hitting on the upswing? Seems to me that the benefit to shortening the club would be to improve accuracy of center-strikes, regardless of if the clubhead is ascending or descending... I'm not sure I follow the thinking.

In other news, I hit both clubs on the monitor yesterday. The 45" club I consistently swung 93-96mph, and the 44.5 95-101mph. Now, I never feel quite comfortable swinging the club in the booth, and the distance the monitor calculates tends to be 20 yards short of what I actually hit it, so I'm betting the swing speed is probably a bit better when I'm not worrying about swinging indoors. As far as contact goes, I did have more on-center impacts with the shorter club, and as a result, had a tighter dispersion. But, the difference was only a few yards left to right and realistically I'm not sure it will translate to anything on the course. That said, the one I did leave way out to the right with an open face was with the long club. But, we'll see...

[Manz60]

Hi, heres some info from Tom Wishon's " The Search for the Perfect Golf Club" (p.146) that might help you:

1) 90% of drivers sold at shops are too long for most players.

2) Longer length drivers will not hit it farther. The difference in distance between a 43" and 45" driver is 1 yard + inches !

Golfer Handicap Driver Length Average Distance Average Misdirection
[u] (inches) (carry in yards) (yards off center of fairway)
[/u] 45 214.2 +/- 26.4
18 to 23 44 214.8 +/-22.7
[b] 43 215.7 +/- 17.0[/b]

as you can see, the shorter driver hits not only with more accuracy but also more distance!

For every .25inch you miss the sweetspot, you loose 5 yards distance. Conversely, for every .25 inch you get closer to the sweetspot , you'll gain 5 yards distance ( and keep the ball in the fairway)

3) The length of your clubs is not determined by your height ; it is determined by the length of your arms ( using a wrist to floor measurement to match height and arm length for comfort) and then 'tweeked' from there to the final length by your swing plane, tempo and ball striking ability.

4) The proper length is the longest length the golfer can hit solid, the highest percentage of the time


As for cutting a shaft .5 inch shorter....cutting the butt (larger diameter) makes the shaft more flexable and shortening the shaft decreases swingweight making the shaft stiffer. These two effects counter each other, with little , if any change in shaft flex (coefficient) . ( per Rifle website FAQ's)



Hope your day goes well

[Manz60]

sorry, not sure what happened to my chart but I'll give it another go:

for a handicap group of 18 to 23:

Driver length (inches) Average Carry Distance (yards) Average Misdirection (yards off center of fairway)
45 214.2 +/-26.4
44 214.8 +/-22.7
43 215.7 +/- 17.0

over and out....

[ballmark]

[quote name='Manz60' timestamp='1307491655' post='3291257']
sorry, not sure what happened to my chart but I'll give it another go:

for a handicap group of 18 to 23:

Driver length (inches) Average Carry Distance (yards) Average Misdirection (yards off center of fairway)
45 214.2 +/-26.4
44 214.8 +/-22.7
43 215.7 +/- 17.0

over and out....
[/quote]
Impressive stats Manz. I must say I believe them too!

[Legend McSniff]

[quote name='qwertyb22' timestamp='1307238151' post='3285170']
Dear Equipment Hos,
I've not been having the best year so far... My driving has really not been near what it was last year, and like every good GolfWRX member, my solution has been to try 100 different driver setups! Ultimately, I've come to the realization that I had bit off a bit too much shaft for my swing, and I'm thinking of switching back to an Aldila NV which for me, seems to work pretty well (yes, I've hit a bunch on the monitor and supposedly the Voodoo is my shaft, but it doesn't seem to translate on the course). Heres my dilemma now: I took my 905R with NV at 45", 907D2 with Proto By You at 45", 909D3 with Voodoo at 45" and a 907D2 with NV at 44.5" that I had just purchased off the bay to the range today. Standing over the 907D2 with NV at 44.5", the shorter club looked a whole lot 'friendlier' to me - like I could make a nice swing and really control the clubface. Since the range I was at only marks up to 220 yards, I'd be guessing if I said I hit one any further than the other. But, hitting the 44.5" shaft, I swear I was putting that one out there a bit longer and straighter than the others - not sure if I was just catching them more squarely in the sweet spot, or if I'm just trying to convince myself I was hitting it better.

I know that many of you play shorter drivers, and I'm wondering if anyone has any objective data ie. swing speeds, ball speeds, dispersion, etc. with different shaft lengths? Or, if anyone knows how much trimming the 0.5" affects the swing weight (which incidentally felt light, but not ridiculously) or shaft flex. A quick search didn't yield much info for me...
[/quote]


Hitting out of the heel or the toe will cost you a lot more yards than lobbing an inch off the driver shafts. I play mine 43.75.

[qwertyb22]

@ Manz60, thats good info; exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, so thanks!

@ Legend McSniff, first off, thats a great name! What you're saying backs up what I saw on the monitor, thanks for the input! Sounds like playing a shorter driver is a good idea. Don't know if I'll go as short as 43.75, but 44.5 sure sounds reasonable...

[billalburger]

I have a question as Iam looking to cut my shaft down. I have the R11 so i can take the shafts out. My question is when measuring the length of the shaft should i take the shafts out of the head measure them, then determine how much to cut off?

[jswaykos]

[quote name='billalburger' timestamp='1307540652' post='3292448']
I have a question as Iam looking to cut my shaft down. I have the R11 so i can take the shafts out. My question is when measuring the length of the shaft should i take the shafts out of the head measure them, then determine how much to cut off?
[/quote]

Set the club up in 'address' position, and put a 48" ruler under the club head (so the club is essentially resting on the driver). Subtract 1/8th of a inch from the end of the grip and you should be VERY close. I believe this is what counts as a 'measurement' on a driver - from heel of the club head to end of the grip in address position.

[DNice26]

This is a great topic. I always wonder if I should go shorter with the driver. Currently playing 45 1/4". When I reshaft, I'll likely go a hair shorter to 45".

[JinxyJ08]

Ill tell you what i have issues with. When i cut my FT Tour down to 44" and am using a Whiteboard 73 how do i get my swingweight back up? Im not doing the "trick the scale" move of a winn light (also because i cant stand that freaking grip) and dont want lead tape since it looks horrendous. What do i use to bring head weight up? Hotmelt isnt anything that any local shop does and half dont even know what it is. So what does that leave me with to bring the head weight up?

[DNice26]

Jinxy......I'm no club builder, but I believe they can use Tungsten power down the shaft.......although I'm not sure how much would be advisable without altering the head weight and swing characteristics.


Anyone have any stats on the PGA tour guys and what they are playing in terms of driver lengths? It would be interesting to see what the say.......
top 10 driving accuracy,
top 10 driving distance and
top 10 all around driving stats guys are playing.

[RJRJRJ]

I stuck my v2 Tour flight in my r11 at 44" and had what was possibly my best driving day to date. Shortest before that was 44.5". I could even see going .5" shorter.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='billalburger' timestamp='1307540652' post='3292448']
I have a question as Iam looking to cut my shaft down. I have the R11 so i can take the shafts out. My question is when measuring the length of the shaft should i take the shafts out of the head measure them, then determine how much to cut off?
[/quote]

You place the club in the address position and measure from the bottom of the sole to the tip of the grip. If your R11 is stock, standard length is 45.75", so you can just base your measurements off of that figure and cut off what you need (R11 TP is 45.50").

The R11 is nice and heavy, so I havent noticed any swingweight anomalies since shortening it.

[3step]

[quote name='qwertyb22' timestamp='1307472095' post='3290368']
Interesting, 3step. Where does that information come from? And why wouldn't driver length matter as much hitting on the upswing? Seems to me that the benefit to shortening the club would be to improve accuracy of center-strikes, regardless of if the clubhead is ascending or descending... I'm not sure I follow the thinking.

In other news, I hit both clubs on the monitor yesterday. The 45" club I consistently swung 93-96mph, and the 44.5 95-101mph. Now, I never feel quite comfortable swinging the club in the booth, and the distance the monitor calculates tends to be 20 yards short of what I actually hit it, so I'm betting the swing speed is probably a bit better when I'm not worrying about swinging indoors. As far as contact goes, I did have more on-center impacts with the shorter club, and as a result, had a tighter dispersion. But, the difference was only a few yards left to right and realistically I'm not sure it will translate to anything on the course. That said, the one I did leave way out to the right with an open face was with the long club. But, we'll see...
[/quote]

If you hang around a Trackman, and fit golfers of all types, after several thousand fittings, you start to understand the relationship of attack angle and driver length.

A golfer that has a positive attack angle, will hit the center of the face equally well with a 44" or 45" club, (assuming both clubs are made well for the given golfer). However, this golfer will gain the most speed with the 45" length.

A golfer that has a negative attack angle is "wrestling" with a head that is moving downward into the ball, but a club length that requires the golfers to swing upward in the hope of clearing their body to make way for the length. This upward/downward conflict forces the golfer to make some swing compensations, which means a lessened ability to make clean contact. A shorter shaft makes this upward/downward conflict less troublesome, and thus an easier time finding the face.

I don't know if I am describing this well, but this is why some golfers with a very negative angle of attack find their way into 43.5" and 43.0" driver lengths.

Regarding some comments on Tom Wishon's data, I bet he hasn't found any different data today, on average, but I am sure since he acquired a Trackman several years ago, he will no longer state that EVERY golfer will have better performance with a shorter driver length.

3step

[Legend McSniff]

[quote name='JinxyJ08' timestamp='1307561143' post='3293186']
Ill tell you what i have issues with. When i cut my FT Tour down to 44" and am using a Whiteboard 73 how do i get my swingweight back up? Im not doing the "trick the scale" move of a winn light (also because i cant stand that freaking grip) and dont want lead tape since it looks horrendous. What do i use to bring head weight up? Hotmelt isnt anything that any local shop does and half dont even know what it is. So what does that leave me with to bring the head weight up?
[/quote]


I wouldnt get hung up on swing weight, it just a arbitary number. Hit some balls with no weight adjustments, see how you go, you probably wont be able to tell any difference. If your not happy I would go down the lead tape route, a bit at a time until you are happy. If you find the tape 'ugly' you will know how much weight you need to add based on your expirements with the tape, you can then go down your chosen route (hot melt, powder etc)

[scifisicko]

907D2 ....sorry I couldn't resist (whats worse is i still have mine)

On a serious note, i have a collection of modern drivers from 43-48. I get a bit over 10 mph more CHS with 48 Vs 43 and there is a linear relationship between length and speed. I love my LD set up, but im too wild with it to score well. 44 inches is the sweet spot for me. Im not sure what Wishon is on about if he thinks shorter drivers are just as fast as longer ones (did he really say that?), also my angle of attack is +3ish and i am more accurate with the short stuff - otherwise id be bombing a 46 incher.

[qwertyb22]

[quote name='scifisicko' timestamp='1307614224' post='3294673']
907D2 ....sorry I couldn't resist (whats worse is i still have mine)
[/quote]

Hey now, I gotta stick up for the 907D2 . Might not have the same feel as the other Titleist drivers, but it seems to fit me well enough, popularity aside...

I don't think anyone would argue that there is a linear relationship with the club length and clubhead speed, either through experience, common sense, or that TaylorMade has rammed that one down our throats in recent years. I think the more practical way to think about it is what is the change in club length that produces a change in clubhead speed that is statistically significant? And then, how does that change in length affect the accuracy of on-center strikes?

From what I've seen on the monitor swinging these clubs, the 1/2" difference in length did not produce a difference in swing speed. I'm sure 48 to 44" is a different story, but the Wishon data suggests even up to 2" might not make a huge difference in swing speed. I imagine the swing speed data would be generalizable which is why I think this is interesting, but the accuracy thing is going to be an individual matter.

[3step]

[quote name='scifisicko' timestamp='1307614224' post='3294673']
907D2 ....sorry I couldn't resist (whats worse is i still have mine)

On a serious note, i have a collection of modern drivers from 43-48. I get a bit over 10 mph more CHS with 48 Vs 43 and there is a linear relationship between length and speed. I love my LD set up, but im too wild with it to score well. 44 inches is the sweet spot for me. Im not sure what Wishon is on about if he thinks shorter drivers are just as fast as longer ones (did he really say that?), also my angle of attack is +3ish and i am more accurate with the short stuff - otherwise id be bombing a 46 incher.


Of course, there is more to a driver choice than just the relationship between clubhead delivery and driver length. It is probable that your 44" driver has a specific feel, balance, flex, and other specification that is right for you. Or your case might be the 1 out of 100 exception.

However, if you have two groups of golfers-

GROUP 1 - 9.5 loft users, with 45" or longer drivers

GROUP 2 - 10.5 loft users, with less than 45" length drivers

and then you measure their current attack angles, GROUP 2 is going to be descending at impact versus GROUP 1, in most every case.

3step

[billalburger]

[quote name='jswaykos' timestamp='1307558647' post='3293073']
[quote name='billalburger' timestamp='1307540652' post='3292448']
I have a question as Iam looking to cut my shaft down. I have the R11 so i can take the shafts out. My question is when measuring the length of the shaft should i take the shafts out of the head measure them, then determine how much to cut off?
[/quote]

Set the club up in 'address' position, and put a 48" ruler under the club head (so the club is essentially resting on the driver). Subtract 1/8th of a inch from the end of the grip and you should be VERY close. I believe this is what counts as a 'measurement' on a driver - from heel of the club head to end of the grip in address position.
[/quote]

I took my V2 Tour Flight shaft to Golfsmith today to het cut down. Now when i take the shaft out of the head and measure just the shaft i measures @ 43.5. Now when i add the head on about how much should i add to find out the complete length. I have been putting a measure tape just under the head at the heel of the head at address and get about 44'.Sound right?

[billalburger]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1307570734' post='3293579']
I stuck my v2 Tour flight in my r11 at 44" and had what was possibly my best driving day to date. Shortest before that was 44.5". I could even see going .5" shorter.
[/quote]


I too have a V2 Tour flight in my R11. Is your 44" just the shaft or total measure with head on?

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='billalburger' timestamp='1307656559' post='3296389']
[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1307570734' post='3293579']
I stuck my v2 Tour flight in my r11 at 44" and had what was possibly my best driving day to date. Shortest before that was 44.5". I could even see going .5" shorter.
[/quote]


I too have a V2 Tour flight in my R11. Is your 44" just the shaft or total measure with head on?
[/quote]

44" total length with the head in.

[kobes31]

Only anecdotal by my game, but longer will get you further out there on the ones you really connect with perfectly, shorter will find the short grass more often and result with better average driving distance and accuracy.

[596]

I have 6 drivers, but only play 2 of them regularly. I have a K15 12* with a 45 3/4" shaft, Ping TFC stiff flex. The other is an Integra 12* with a 47.5" stiff flex 65 gram shaft. The whole club weighs in a like 240 grams.

With the Integra 175, lighter club, longer shaft, remember: it has a 12* loft, I can out hit the K15 by about 10 yards every time. I play to a 6 handicap and my SS is mid 90's. I'm not a long ball hitter.....I only hit about 250 with the K15. I;m not standing on the tee box trying to smash the sh*t out of every drive. I play my driver for accuracy just as I do any other club. Both clubs are very accurate. I don't miss many fairways and I'm nearly never OB or unplayable off the tee. I"ll play the Integra 175 on courses with more room off the tees.

I have a hard time with statements like, longer driver shafts give up fairways, shorter drivers are "always" more accurate. Now those statements may "generally" be true. but there are exceptions when combining things like players swing, swing speed, shaft length and overall club selection that is just as immportant and can change these statements drastically.