The (idiotic) rules of golf strikes again

[wedge1]

You guys must be right. There is no possibility of improving the game by simplfying the rules.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='wedge1' timestamp='1311088711' post='3404252']
You guys must be right. There is no possibility of improving the game by simplfying the rules.
[/quote]

The rules are always being reviewed and constantly updated, by rational people who understand the intent and consequences of each change and how those changes may affect the rules as a whole.

[Sawgrass]

Here is the ultimate test of the rule. Say it is a very windy day, and I putt in a lull. The ball roll to half over the cup. I then mark my putt as I am allowed to do and let my competitors finish out. When I replace the ball it rolls in the hole due to a gust of wind. What is that ruling? I would do that every time I am playing on the off chance. It would also give me time to shade the grass as i went to mark my ball or stood over putt.

 

Don't bother to try this, the rules appropriately require you to put down a score that is the same as it would have been if you tapped it in:

 

16-2/0.5 Ball Overhanging Hole Is Lifted, Cleaned and Replaced; Ball Then Falls into Hole

 

Q. After an approach shot, a player's ball is overhanging the hole. The player walks up to the hole without unreasonable delay and notices that there is mud on the ball. The player marks the position of the ball and lifts it. He then cleans the ball and replaces it. The ball remains on the lip of the hole for about five seconds and then, as the player is preparing to tap it into the hole, the ball falls into the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A. Under Rule 16-2 , if a ball falls into the hole after it is deemed to be at rest, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and he shall add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole. In this case, when the player marked the position of the ball it must have been at rest. The ball must be considered to have been at rest when it was replaced; otherwise, it would have to be replaced again (Rule 20-3d).

 

Accordingly, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole.

 

 

[QEight]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311084545' post='3404036']
When the ball is back down on the green and comes to a rest (even momentarily) it's in play, and the fact that there's a marker down behind it has no significance at all.
[/quote]

If the rules were this strict then I could bet some money on this rule being broken in every PGA and Euro Tournament every time.
Example: Player places the ball in front of the marker, and ball turns one, two, three, whatever dimples after the fingers are released. Then player picks the ball again into fingers and re-aligns the ball and releases fingers again. Maybe few times per same marking.

The rules have following addition regarding marking and movement of the ball/marker:

[quote]There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.[/quote]

[KevCarter]

[quote name='QEight' timestamp='1311090487' post='3404354']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311084545' post='3404036']
When the ball is back down on the green and comes to a rest (even momentarily) it's in play, and the fact that there's a marker down behind it has no significance at all.
[/quote]

If the rules were this strict then I could bet some money on this rule being broken in every PGA and Euro Tournament every time.
Example: Player places the ball in front of the marker, and ball turns one, two, three, whatever dimples after the fingers are released. Then player picks the ball again into fingers and re-aligns the ball and releases fingers again. Maybe few times per same marking.

The rules have following addition regarding marking and movement of the ball/marker:

[quote]There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.[/quote]
[/quote]

The test doesn't start when the fingers are released, the ball must remain at rest after the fingers are released. Rules officials from the PGA/USGA will tell you the ball must remain at rest for "a few seconds" before considered in play.

Kevin

[Solutions Etcetera]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1  Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is [u]replaced[/u], whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]
Didn't the OP say the ball was never lifted after the mark… therefore it was not replaced.

So what is the rule for a ball moving after it being marked, but not lifted and replaced?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Solutions Etcetera' timestamp='1311093375' post='3404511']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is [u]replaced[/u], whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]
Didn't the OP say the ball was never lifted after the mark… therefore it was not replaced.

So what is the rule for a ball moving after it being marked, but not lifted and replaced?
[/quote]

The answer to your question lies in the definitions section of the rules, which define a ball on the green as being in play until it is "lifted" -- not until it is "marked." If it's in play and the wind moves it, play if from where it lies.

[b][url=""][/url]Ball in Play[/b]
A ball is "[i]in play" [/i]as soon as the player has made a [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Stroke"][i]stroke[/i][/url] on the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#TeeingGround"][i]teeing ground.[/i][/url] It remains [i]in play[/i] until it is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Holed"]holed[/url],[/i] except when it is [i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Lost"]lost[/url], [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#OutofBounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i] or lifted, or another ball has been [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted,[/i][/url] whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#SubstitutedBall"][i]substituted[/i][/url] becomes the [i]ball in play[/i][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#BallinPlay"][i].[/i][/url]

[larrybud]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

The problem is that the rule doesn't make any sense. By rule the ball is "in play" even though it's marked. However you can pick up a marked ball. So you can pick up a ball without penalty while it's in play! Seems contradictory to me.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1311096102' post='3404677']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

The problem is that the rule doesn't make any sense. By rule the ball is "in play" even though it's marked. However you can pick up a marked ball. So you can pick up a ball without penalty while it's in play! Seems contradictory to me.
[/quote]

Oh well, I don't think any answer I give will make you happy. I'm comfortable with the way it is written and makes sense to me. Have you attempted doing a better job in writing the rule making sure all bases are covered? The USGA and R&A are very good at listening to revisions that work. Even an idiot like me was able to get a decision included in the book.

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1311096102' post='3404677']
By rule the ball is "in play" even though it's marked. However you can pick up a marked ball. So you can pick up a ball without penalty while it's in play! Seems contradictory to me.
[/quote]

Yes, you can pick up a ball without penalty while it's in play under certain conditions, one of which is that you must mark it first. You may no longer find it contradictory if you consider that there must be a point at which the in-play ball comes out of play, and that point is when you lift it -- but only under appropriate conditions.

If you are on the green you always have the right to pick up your ball, assuming that you correctly mark it first. But through the green or in a hazard you rarely have that right -- a couple of occasions when you do is if another player asks you to mark it due to its interfering with his play, or if after gaining your opponent's or fellow competitior's awareness/approval you must lift it in order to identify it.

Edit: while of course one could change the rule to say that placing a mark near the ball is the action which takes the ball out of play (rather than lifting it being that action), it seems comfortable/appropriate to me to keep the ball itself the focus rather than the mark. "If the ball's there, it's in play "is simple.

[Skaffa77]

I have to be honest, I was unaware of this rule and thankfully haven't been victim to it.   I can understand the confusion...if your position is marked, it shouldn't be deemed in play until it is unmarked.   With that said, the rules are pretty clear on the topic and I now know better.

[drck1000]

I am by NO means a rules expert, so please don't dump on me for asking this.

Not the situation that the OP presented, but I've seen on TV where many PGA and LPGA pros mark their ball, pick their ball up and replace with the mark still behind it. Then proceed to then evaluate the putt and often go back behind the ball and then tweak the line of the putt. If the ball is deemed in play after it has been replaced and is at-rest for at least a few seconds, why isn't there a penalty for moving a ball that is in play? If the placement of the mark behind the ball is not significant as to whether or not the ball is in play, then why is the player allowed to pick up the ball, clean or whatever, and then replace?

Is it as long as the ball remained at-rest after last placement in front of the mark then it can be readjusted?

Does the player have to state that they have again marked and is proceeding to replace the ball again? That would be at least stating their intention like the way you state your intention when you hit a provisional off the tee. It is my understanding if you go ahead and re-tee that you have abandoned your initial shot and stating a provisional is declaring your intention accordingly and that if your original ball is safe, then it is still in play.

Just curious. I play only casual rounds, but have toyed with the idea of entering local tournaments, in the lower flights of course!

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='drck1000' timestamp='1311104474' post='3405108']
I am by NO means a rules expert, so please don't dump on me for asking this.

Not the situation that the OP presented, but I've seen on TV where many PGA and LPGA pros mark their ball, pick their ball up and replace with the mark still behind it. Then proceed to then evaluate the putt and often go back behind the ball and then tweak the line of the putt. If the ball is deemed in play after it has been replaced and is at-rest for at least a few seconds, why isn't there a penalty for moving a ball that is in play? If the placement of the mark behind the ball is not significant as to whether or not the ball is in play, then why is the player allowed to pick up the ball, clean or whatever, and then replace?

Is it as long as the ball remained at-rest after last placement in front of the mark then it can be readjusted?

Does the player have to state that they have again marked and is proceeding to replace the ball again? That would be at least stating their intention like the way you state your intention when you hit a provisional off the tee. It is my understanding if you go ahead and re-tee that you have abandoned your initial shot and stating a provisional is declaring your intention accordingly and that if your original ball is safe, then it is still in play.

Just curious. I play only casual rounds, but have toyed with the idea of entering local tournaments, in the lower flights of course!


[/quote]

As long as you've adequately marked your ball on the green you can continue to pick it up, put it down and turn it around to your heart's content -- even if so doing temporarily takes the ball out of play time after time. And you are not under any obligation to announce your intention to mark your ball if it's on the green.

I suspect that what you've seen pros do is to keep turning the ball while it sits there until they get the line on the ball facing the direction they wish to putt. It's all acceptable as long as their mark stays there.

[wetdogsmell]

If a player places the ball down, takes a step back to re-check the line (without removing the marker) and the ball moves to a new location, they would have to re-mark the new location before picking it up again correct?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='wetdogsmell' timestamp='1311105824' post='3405182']
If a player places the ball down, takes a step back to re-check the line (without removing the marker) and the ball moves to a new location, they would have to re-mark the new location before picking it up again correct?
[/quote]

As long as the ball came to rest after it was placed down (as in the beginning of your sentence) and then later moved, you are correct. If it had never stopped once initially placed down, it would have to be replaced at the mark until it came to rest on that spot or the nearest spot no closer to the hole where it would stop.

[drck1000]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1311105375' post='3405159']
As long as you've adequately marked your ball on the green you can continue to pick it up, put it down and turn it around to your heart's content -- even if so doing temporarily takes the ball out of play time after time. And you are not under any obligation to announce your intention to mark your ball if it's on the green.

I suspect that what you've seen pros do is to keep turning the ball while it sits there until they get the line on the ball facing the direction they wish to putt. It's all acceptable as long as their mark stays there.
[/quote]

Thanks for your response!

So the marking of the ball does carry some significance in determining whether or not the ball is in play. Now I know about and understand the rule that says that you must play the ball where it comes to rest if the wind moves it after placing it back in front of the mark. Previously I would've just picked up the ball and put it back in front of my mark since I would have assumed that the ball was not in play until I removed my mark.

Luckily the greens that I normally play on aren't fast enough where this ever comes into play.

Sawgrass - Are you in Florida? I just returned home after a golf trip to TPC Sawgrass. Played the Stadium course twice along with Dye's Valley and King & Bear.

Edit for spelling.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='drck1000' timestamp='1311106210' post='3405198']
So the marking of the ball does carry some significance in determining whether or not the ball is in play.


Sawgrass - Are you in Florida? I just returned home after a golf trip to TPC Sawgrass. Played the Stadium course twice along with Dye's Valley and King & Bear.
[/quote]


Drck, I think it's more accurate to say that the marking of the ball carries some significance in determining whether or not the ball may be lifted -- not whether or not it is in play. But I suspect that we are in agreement in practice.

And no, I'm not from Florida, I'm just a big Sawgrass Stadium Course fan who lives in Connecticut. I hope you had as much fun there as I have on the occasions I've been lucky enough to play it.

[SHIVAN]

[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

No penalty if played from the new spot it arrived upon after the wind stopped blowing?

[DaveLeeNC]

I understand the rule.

 

However, defining the marking process as incomplete until the mark is removed seems more logical to me.

 

But then no one ever asked me

 

dave

[KevCarter]

[quote name='SHIVAN' timestamp='1311107241' post='3405244']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

No penalty if played from the new spot it arrived upon after the wind stopped blowing?
[/quote]

No penalty unless the player had addressed the ball or caused it to move.

Kevin

[wetdogsmell]

But add a penalty stroke if the ball rolls into the cup correct?

[KevCarter]

20-3d/1 Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q.  A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?

A.  The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.

[dirtytrees]

If i have a line on my ball that i use to aim when putting, I first mark the ball , lift it , clean it then place it back down to aim the line on the ball on my intended line, I then stand up and look down the line and realize it is slightly left of my intended line, i then bend down, without yet having moved the marker, and twist the ball to the right to aim it on my intended line. is this a penalty? i have moved a ball put back in play by the rule definition above.
this happens 200 times a round on any pga event?

[Isaac_Newton]

Great thread. I was initially on the side of the crowd who believes the act of placing and removing a marker should deem the ball in/out of play. However, the act of lifting and placing the ball as the determining factor makes a lot more sense.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='dirtytrees' timestamp='1311112861' post='3405518']
If i have a line on my ball that i use to aim when putting, I first mark the ball , lift it , clean it then place it back down to aim the line on the ball on my intended line, I then stand up and look down the line and realize it is slightly left of my intended line, i then bend down, without yet having moved the marker, and twist the ball to the right to aim it on my intended line. is this a penalty? i have moved a ball put back in play by the rule definition above.
this happens 200 times a round on any pga event?
[/quote]

And I believe that Rule 20 allows you to move a ball (without penalty) that is in play (if the ball i moved while lifting your marker). Padraig ran into this a while back (the issue being one of replacing the ball).

All this seems illogical to me and would be solved by saying that the ball is marked until the marker is removed, at which point the ball is back in play..

dave

[dirtytrees]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1311113864' post='3405558']
[quote name='dirtytrees' timestamp='1311112861' post='3405518']
If i have a line on my ball that i use to aim when putting, I first mark the ball , lift it , clean it then place it back down to aim the line on the ball on my intended line, I then stand up and look down the line and realize it is slightly left of my intended line, i then bend down, without yet having moved the marker, and twist the ball to the right to aim it on my intended line. is this a penalty? i have moved a ball put back in play by the rule definition above.
this happens 200 times a round on any pga event?
[/quote]

And I believe that Rule 20 allows you to move a ball (without penalty) that is in play (if the ball i moved while lifting your marker).

All this seems illogical to me and would be solved by saying that the ball is marked until the marker is removed, at which point the ball is back in play..

dave
[/quote]
agreed, but i think its just you and me on this one

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='dirtytrees' timestamp='1311112861' post='3405518']
If i have a line on my ball that i use to aim when putting, I first mark the ball , lift it , clean it then place it back down to aim the line on the ball on my intended line, I then stand up and look down the line and realize it is slightly left of my intended line, i then bend down, without yet having moved the marker, and twist the ball to the right to aim it on my intended line. is this a penalty? i have moved a ball put back in play by the rule definition above.
this happens 200 times a round on any pga event?
[/quote]

There is absolutely no problem with doing exactly what you describe unless the ball moves on its own after you step away from it. If it does that after it had previously come to rest, it has a new "legal" location, and your subsequent efforts to realign your line on the ball should be made from the ball's new resting place, presumably requiring you to move your marker to the new location prior to once again twisting the ball.

It's relatively infrequent that a ball would move on its own after coming to rest, so the hundreds of times you've seen this happen in a PGA Tour event are likely totally acceptable.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1311114872' post='3405595']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311082726' post='3403968']
[quote name='CheckJV' timestamp='1311082258' post='3403946']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

Cool, thanks. I love GolfWRX, you learn the best stuff in here. I hope to get my weekend hacker's license soon, if I pass the test.
[/quote]

The rules are complex, without a doubt. We are ALL constantly learning. If you are reading rules threads you are moving in the right direction. I still make mistakes and have a few posts I would like a mulligan on, but there is always a wealth of folks here willing to help us stay on track.
[/quote]

Can we touch base on this a little bit more???

under rule 20-4......if the player would have played the ball from where it was blown too.....he would have been able to play it with no penalty- correct????
[/quote]

Correct Sir.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1311114872' post='3405595']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311082726' post='3403968']
[quote name='CheckJV' timestamp='1311082258' post='3403946']
[quote name='kevcarter ' timestamp='1311080787' post='3403878']
20-4/1 Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position — see Decision 18-1/12.
[/quote]

Cool, thanks. I love GolfWRX, you learn the best stuff in here. I hope to get my weekend hacker's license soon, if I pass the test.
[/quote]

The rules are complex, without a doubt. We are ALL constantly learning. If you are reading rules threads you are moving in the right direction. I still make mistakes and have a few posts I would like a mulligan on, but there is always a wealth of folks here willing to help us stay on track.
[/quote]

Can we touch base on this a little bit more???

under rule 20-4......if the player would have played the ball from where it was blown too.....he would have been able to play it with no penalty- correct????
[/quote]

Yes, in fact the player has no other legal choice but to play it from its new location-- unless he does something crazy like take an unplayable lie and thereby moves his ball.

[wedge1]

I stand corrected...this whole thing is crystal clear to everyone and needs no simplification. Returning all balls to the mark or spot without penalty would be more confusing to the golf masses and detract from the sport.