Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?

[drewspin]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311627255' post='3422670']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311624595' post='3422520']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311621523' post='3422343']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311618984' post='3422200']
Great stuff, Squish!

Hogan's hit with the hands happened only at the bottom, when the 7 was formed, the hands are roughly in front of the right leg.

It is there that [b]the hands transition from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist.[/b] Then the hit occurs in a sycopated movement with the left arm and shoulder maintaining the kinetic chain... and the hit is through impact.

It happens so FAST it's impossible to see on film cameras of the day, but there are a few still frames that captured the move! It's quite remarkable!

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]

That transition is going from pronation to supination.
I have seen Hogan do that in the slot, midway down , and from the top, viewing different shots.
I call that uncocking.

It is done while palmar flexing the left and dorsal flexing the right.
With a clockwise rotation of the right forearm and a slow lateral rotation of the left humerus.
The right retains the cup and the left bows.
The compression of the right side brings those hands down to the right hip with the compound pivot.
To achieve that I get my right hip under my left shoulder.

Like I say I ,or no one for that matter can tell you what hogan really did.
All I can write about I what I see in his concepts that have worked for me as I hit every day.
I love to practice. I hit one ball chase it, and play it from all lies.
[/quote]

Yes, well I try to learn from what Hogan said, what he wrote, and what we can see that he did from film and pictures (understanding the limitations of those media).

Let's say he's gotten into his pivot early, and carried the the cocked wrists down to the bottom of the slot, now the right elbow is positioned in and tight above his right hip, and his left wrist is still in dorsiflexion.

This image from 5L that Hogan found so important appears to show a gradual shift from the left to the right.

[url="http://www.zenchili.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Hogan-left-wrist-action.jpg"]http://www.zenchili....rist-action.jpg[/url]

However, from what I see, Hogan actually has very little radial rolling action of the left forearm.

The shift from the left hand pronating and dorsiflexing (left wrist cocked in first image in the sequence) to the left wrist supinating and palmar flexing (third image in the sequence happens VERY, VERY fast, not gradually as the Ravielli drawings would suggest. IMHO there is almost instantaneous transition in the release or uncocking into the pre-impact position from which he can "hit" with both hands.

I am focused on exploring how Hogan maintains extension and acheives this instantaneous shift into supination/palmar flexion with the left side.

Squish - I'd like to hear how you feel the rotation of the humerous assists with the transition into Supination/palmarflexion.

Do you also feel the torque increasing between the hands immediately into the uncocking?
[/quote]

Forget that IHMO crap, you have a good or bad opinion, I'd like to hear it.
I respect any golfer who tries to workout his swing.


The elbows not in and tight, but low.
Hogan was asked about that and said he never brought his elbow in packing it, he said I tried to keep them low.

The left arm has the ability to torque in opposing directions.
At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus.
The left arm is solid, with the elbow and the back of the left hand; we will say, target bound.
The arm entire arm is torqued.
The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around.
The left arm is being leveraged by the right hip.

Now here is what I see as hogan's best move
At impact he releases the elbow to point it down as the chest rises. This allows the left arm to release to keep the clubface parallel to the tangent.
Even though the left arm is extended it is reverse torquing in ulna deviation with both wrists. The face never closes.
At this point both arms go into in full extension post impact at a point well ahead of the ball.
[/quote]

"At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus."

To be clear that I understand, at that point, you are saying the left upper arm segment from shoulder to elbow (humerous) rotates axially clockwise (in toward the body)?

[Squish]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311628107' post='3422730']
"At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus."

To be clear that I understand, at that point, you are saying the left upper arm segment from shoulder to elbow (humerous) rotates axially clockwise (in toward the body)?
[/quote]

Yes, medial rotation is toward the spine lateral rotation is away from the spine.


That is checked at the waggle as the forearm supinates.
That way I know how to feel coming in at impact.

[moehogan]

"Now here is what I see as hogan's best move

At impact he releases the elbow to point it down as the chest rises. This allows the left arm to release to keep the clubface parallel to the tangent.

Even though the left arm is extended it is reverse torquing in ulna deviation with both wrists. The face never closes.

At this point both arms go into in full extension post impact at a point well ahead of the ball" ... Squish

 

Like this?

 

[Squish]

"Now here is what I see as hogan's best move

At impact he releases the elbow to point it down as the chest rises. This allows the left arm to release to keep the clubface parallel to the tangent.

Even though the left arm is extended it is reverse torquing in ulna deviation with both wrists. The face never closes.

At this point both arms go into in full extension post impact at a point well ahead of the ball" ... Squish

 

Like this?

 

 

Yes, as the torso continues turning. The turn gives it that low inside effect.

 

But it is done through and post impact. You want the back of the left hand and elbow target bound as you strike.

We are talking a micro second release of torsional torque that keeps the face parallel to the tangent.

If you do it early.... the turn will stop.

[Squish]

Here is a better view, back of the left hand and elbow target bound.... to elbow down.

Back of the left hand and pectoral connection is constant.



[attachment=828315:Untitledl.png] [attachment=828316:e48b656c_BenHogan.jpg]

[Squish]

The left elbow position in this drawing is wrong,
although that is how I feel the humerus releasing through impact.

[attachment=828333:lf.jpeg] [b]Post Impact Elbow[/b]


This is the truth where the left hand and elbow should be.

[attachment=828347:Untitled2.png] [b] Impact elbow [attachment=828378:ggg.png] [/b]

[dmagalhaes]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311109356' post='3405356']
[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1311086787' post='3404137']
Not sure the intent of original post...but he hit one of the most famous 1 iron shots in golf, Merion, 72nd hole of the 1950 US Open, as we all know.

(I guess Jack's one iron at Baltustrol, 72nd hole of US Open was quite famous also. (1967, I think).
[/quote]


LYG,

Thank you for the response regarding Merion. I will google that. Honestly, I don't know that much about Hogan's playing history.

Sorry if the intent of the original post was unclear.

It just seems that nowadays no one carries a 1-iron. I was sipping my coffee this morning and wondered if Ben Hogan carried one, used one effectively. If he did, then I question what went wrong after Five Lessons - The Modern Fundamentals of Golf was published? It seems that modern instruction concentrates on 2 things - deciphering Hogan's book & hitting down on the ball in an effort to create a divot from the earth at one's feet. When I try to hit down on the ball with a 1-iron, the results are worthless.

Ultimately, I was wondering if any of the Hogan's Heroes carry 1-irons and could shed a little light on this very dark subject.
[/quote]

Lots of people carry 1 irons, you might just have one yourself. They are called 3 irons nowadays.

[drewspin]

Here is a great picture from Jules Alexander, which shows just very start of the left hand supinating:

[attachment=828656:a-study-in-power.jpg]

Squish, in this position has the medial rotation of the left humerus already taken place?

[Squish]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311711643' post='3425758']
Here is a great picture from Jules Alexander, which shows just very start of the left hand supinating:

[attachment=828656:a-study-in-power.jpg]

Squish, in this position has the medial rotation of the left humerus already taken place?
[/quote]

Yes,
When the left elbow is target ward the humerus is medially rotated inward.
It is loaded.

Here it has been released through impact laterally rotated relaxed the torque.
The hands a parallel to the flight line.

[attachment=828779:past-impact.jpg]

[JD3]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1311499204' post='3418471']
hogan could hit a minus 2 iron, as can anyone with a decent swing that doesn't rely on big shaft lean or big curvature. there are no bio-mechanical dectats to hitting a 1 iron as mentioned here, they are just necessary feels for a player that differentiate the clubs through the bag for that player, and the feels are as much a symptom of their chosen pattern as their own ability.
[/quote]
Hold on. I read BH was going to publish a follow up to 5L's titled "Fourteen Lessons" with a chapter describing in detail his different technique for hitting each club in the bag. He decided not to because he didn't want to give away his 7 iron technique to Snead.

[grahler]

Humorous rotation adds several yards to the shot but only if you can keep a straight face. Laughter will destroy your balance.

No offense guys just couldn't contain myself.

['53 Precision]

[quote name='dmagalhaes' timestamp='1311685672' post='3424459']
[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311109356' post='3405356']
[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1311086787' post='3404137']
Not sure the intent of original post...but he hit one of the most famous 1 iron shots in golf, Merion, 72nd hole of the 1950 US Open, as we all know.

(I guess Jack's one iron at Baltustrol, 72nd hole of US Open was quite famous also. (1967, I think).
[/quote]


LYG,

Thank you for the response regarding Merion. I will google that. Honestly, I don't know that much about Hogan's playing history.

Sorry if the intent of the original post was unclear.

It just seems that nowadays no one carries a 1-iron. I was sipping my coffee this morning and wondered if Ben Hogan carried one, used one effectively. If he did, then I question what went wrong after Five Lessons - The Modern Fundamentals of Golf was published? It seems that modern instruction concentrates on 2 things - deciphering Hogan's book & hitting down on the ball in an effort to create a divot from the earth at one's feet. When I try to hit down on the ball with a 1-iron, the results are worthless.

Ultimately, I was wondering if any of the Hogan's Heroes carry 1-irons and could shed a little light on this very dark subject.
[/quote]

Lots of people carry 1 irons, you might just have one yourself. They are called 3 irons nowadays.
[/quote]

Actually, the industry standard for a 1 iron from the Ben Hogan Co. and Wilson Golf was 17*. According to both Mizuno and Titleist's website their 3 irons are 21* in their players blades, 4* difference, the new 3 irons are actually lofted almost exactly between the old 2 (19.5 Hogan, 20* Wilson) and 3 iron (23* Hogan and 23* or 24* Wilson) specs. And yes, I have and can hit a 1 iron, actually I have close to a dozen and can hit each.

[JD3]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311721326' post='3426448']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311711643' post='3425758']
Here is a great picture from Jules Alexander, which shows just very start of the left hand supinating:

[attachment=828656:a-study-in-power.jpg]

Squish, in this position has the medial rotation of the left humerus already taken place?
[/quote]

Yes,
When the left elbow is target ward the humerus is medially rotated inward.
It is loaded.

Here it has been released through impact laterally rotated relaxed the torque.
The hands a parallel to the flight line.

[attachment=828779:past-impact.jpg]
[/quote]
You're seeing more back of the right hand primarily because the camera is in a static position and Hogan's body is turning away from it.

[grahler]

So are some saying this is a conscious double twist move of the left arm to the hand through the shot?

Seems like an overcomplicated theory.

Austin was a notorious BS'er and his "swing knowledge" pales in comparison to Hogan.

Austin was a charlatan.

Hogan proved it in major tournaments.

Nuff said.

[Squish]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1311728693' post='3426847']
You're seeing more back of the right hand primarily because the camera is in a static position and Hogan's body is turning away from it.
[/quote]


That right hand is going forward as hogan suggests.

Using the pressure points.

As the torso is turning like you say, but the hands are releasing on the tangent.

[Squish]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1311731121' post='3427051']
So are some saying this is a conscious double twist move of the left arm to the hand through the shot?

Seems like an overcomplicated theory.

Austin was a notorious BS'er and his "swing knowledge" pales in comparison to Hogan.

Austin was a charlatan.

Hogan proved it in major tournaments.

Nuff said.


[/quote]


"So are some saying this is a conscious double twist move of the left arm to the hand through the shot?

Seems like an overcomplicated theory"



Well that is a secret to keeping it in the fairway.

It allows one to turn as fast as they want without closing the face.
It's how one hits with the left hand in answer to drewspins question.
If you have to think about it then you don't know how to do it.
The swing should be a reaction.



Actually Austin held the Phd degree and was primarly a teacher.
He did a lot of other things in life well. Actor, opera singer, boxer, taught tennis, base ball.
Hogan was a player and knew how to play the game, as Hogan said the swing was easy and only a small part of winning tournaments.
Gotta give hogan more credit as he stuck to one thing, he had a rough start and took him awhile to figure it out. He truged on.
Austin also had both legs broken during the war in africa as a pilot when his plane went down and jacked up his shoulder.
He also came back. The other I respect Babe Zaharius she came back from cancer.

Austin was a long driver, 48 tournament winner, and lectured in many countries including Japan for the gov, marshal arts program.
Shoot I wish I would have done 1/10 of what those men did.

I care jack diddly for the modern tour players, the real pro's are the teaching pros. Hogan taught and the first thing he would do is to tie a belt
around the humerus to keep them out of the stroke and tell you to weaken the grip and work the forearms.
Better believe I did it, and it works.

I respect all golfers who keep trying, learning and teaching.

[JD3]

Austin seems like a big blow hard who liked to hear himself talk. He tried monetizing one drive that was hit under unusual circumstances and was such an outlier any statistician would remove it from the data sample.

Hogan by comparison was soft spoken and came across as humble. When pressed to describe his most prominent shot he basically said no big deal, ive been practicing it all my life.

Please stop trying to equate one to the other. The comedy has worn off and now it's just offensive.

[Squish]

You better believe he was big, caught a guy breaking in to his driving range so hit the guy so hard in the mouth he was choking to death.

Austin reset his jaw and took him to the hospital.

The guy thanked him.

[grahler]

Jamie Sadlowski is a long drive champ-but Hunter Mahan is a BETTER GOLFER.

Long driving is not golf.

Looking at video of Austin is just not that impressive.

It reminds me of the Tao Te Ching.

Those who speak do not know

Those who know do not speak

I think a conscious effort to double rotate is a theory-what proof is there that any golfer had this intent?

Its way overcomplicating things and overdramatizing it.

Austin-the hustler

Hogan the golfer.

Nuff said.

The reason I have gone there is that any good engineer will tell you that the best way to solve a problem is the SIMPLEST way. Hogan's own words on the downswing I think of ONE THING HITTING THE BALL SOMETIMES HARD.
He put himself in position to do that by design.
He did not need thoughts about a triple throwdown twist medial collateral damage inward humorous rotative driving nuclear holocaust super spin release that held the club square he just did it.
Hogan also never went out and wore a ridiculous monkey suit and panhandled around pretending to be a golfer for money.

I am done in this thread.

[JD3]

@ squish I think you'd stand a better chance equating him to hulk hogan than Ben hogan.

[Squish]

Those who speak do not know

Those who know do not speak

Epistemophobia?



I'm more interested in those who listen and learn, I listened to Hogan Speak, and did know, Austin, Yogi, Nicklaus etc. and I used their concepts.


I then formed my own.

[two stroke]

I suppose I don't understand the short-fused hostility towards Austin. Perhaps there smolders a dramatic history between members at this DB that newcomers like myself wouldn't be familiar with.

I cannot defend Austin; however, nor do I see the value in bashing him. From the video clip shared earlier, the man can smoke his 1-iron. Was he Hogan? No. But, then again, neither is anyone else. Do I think Hogan was great? Sure. But I like Sam Snead's swing better. But the real question is, who can cook better?

I have never met an honest man who claimed they didn't want more distance off the tee. Turning Austin into a villain because he was long-off-the-tee-but-won-no-major-tournaments does not simplify Hogan's book. (I will concede that Austin looks rather villainous in his skeleton costume. But I digress.) Nor does it make Austin's swing concepts uninteresting or without value.

"Long driving is not golf." True, but who says that long knockers can't be good golfers? What about James Braid?

Austin hit a world record ball that many people still love (hate) to talk about. Was is a fluke? Maybe. But hitting it 400 yards seemed to be commonplace for him. Is Austin's instruction complicated? Well, it's detailed. Is is easy to digest? Well, it is specific.

But offensive?

[two stroke]

"Actually, the industry standard for a 1 iron from the Ben Hogan Co. and Wilson Golf was 17*. According to both Mizuno and Titleist's website their 3 irons are 21* in their players blades, 4* difference, the new 3 irons are actually lofted almost exactly between the old 2 (19.5 Hogan, 20* Wilson) and 3 iron (23* Hogan and 23* or 24* Wilson) specs. And yes, I have and can hit a 1 iron, actually I have close to a dozen and can hit each." - '53 Precision


'53,

Apparently you can hit a 1-iron. You've got a dozen of 'em. I don't know how to measure the angle of my 1-iron to compare it to my 3-iron. To my naked eye, my vintage 1-iron has a much flatter face and the shaft IS longer than my modern 3.

Back to Braid, because after all this is a thread about the 1-iron.

Squish mentioned the word "cleek" earlier. I didn't know what a cleek was. So I googled it. James Braid spoke about cleeks in one of his books. So I read about it. Braid didn't refer to his cleek as "an old and trusted friend" as Hogan did, but Braid held his cleek in high regard, nonetheless.

"At the top of the list of irons there is, of course, the cleek, which becomes more and more useful and indispensable according to the the increasing skill of the player. Some people say that is is a difficult club to employ with success, and such difficulty as exists is generally most pronounced in a golfer's early days. When he gets a little farther on in the game there is sometimes a tendency to discard the cleek altogether, and the excuse is made that its employment is not necessary to a good game. This is wrong. For anything approaching to a perfect game of golf the cleek is quite one of the most necessary clubs, for there are shots to be done with it that are not within the capability of any other, and the sooner an ambitious player makes up his mind that he has got to master the cleek, the better for his game. Moreover, it is a club the command of which gives the greatest pleasure to the player, and for my own part I must confess to a great liking for my cleek. Boy golfers commonly begin with clerks, and can never do without them afterwards, and it is no use for their elders to be frightened of this club, as they so often are." - James Braid

[natep]

Hogan and Austin were friends. As soon as Hogan was able to play golf again after his accident he went to California to see Austin. Everyone knew Austin was the biggest hitter at the time and supposedly Hogan was intrigued by the fact that Austin hit it long with a left to right ballflight.

[grahler]

the saddest part of the story is that Austin merely shot par that day. He went on to finish in the top ten at that tournament, but he was never a professional all-star. His best finish on the PGA Tour was at the 1961 Ontario Open, where he tied for thirty-seventh place with a total of 291. His low score in a Tour event was a 285 at the 1958 Tucson Open, where he tied for fifty-first. After the 515-yard drive, Austin pitched back onto the green and three-putted. Longest drive in history and Mike walked away with a bogey.


Austin tournament golf legacy. Not one PGA tour victory.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311740102' post='3427560']
But hitting it 400 yards seemed to be commonplace for him.
[/quote]

lol, the legend grows, austin gamed an extra long driver, gained a few yards on the real winners back then like snead.

squish, your almost preaching about learning, have you read 5 lessons ?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311680970' post='3424328']
Here is a better view, back of the left hand and elbow target bound.... to elbow down.

Back of the left hand and pectoral connection is constant.



[attachment=828315:Untitledl.png] [attachment=828316:e48b656c_BenHogan.jpg]
[/quote]


[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311684421' post='3424410']
The left elbow position in this drawing is wrong,
although that is how I feel the humerus releasing through impact.

[attachment=828333:lf.jpeg] [b]Post Impact Elbow[/b]


This is the truth where the left hand and elbow should be.

[attachment=828347:Untitled2.png] [b] Impact elbow [attachment=828378:ggg.png] [/b]
[/quote]

The camera angle is angled from in front of Hogan , so its going to "look" more like you want it 2 look , but it isn't anything like what you say

[eightiron]

squish you wrote this



[color=#1C2837]At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus.
The left arm is solid, with the elbow and the back of the left hand; we will say, target bound.
The arm entire arm is torqued.
The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around.
The left arm is being leveraged by the right hip.[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]you are using words like leverage which implies there is somehow a lever involved linking the right hip and the left arm [/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]inward medial rotation of left humerus while the left forearm is supinating after the left wrist is uncocked !! suggests a slow down of release late in the downswing[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]lets look from another camera angle and see if this [/color]
[color=#1C2837][/color][color=#1C2837][b]"The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around[/b]" [/color]
[color=#1C2837] really happens [/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]

[Squish]

Wow,

It's just my method as to how to swing a 1 iron from what I learned from elite pro's.

A great swing doesn't make a great golfer, golf is a game. A swing is a swing and no two alike, Hogan never swung the same way twice.

He adapted his swing for the shot in mind.

But I believe that is how hogan cured his hook and kept the face from closing with the turn.

5L's ? I have given many copies to students of the game.

So my opinion or method is the only one that matters.

Till I find one better.

[Squish]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1311748301' post='3427758']
squish you wrote this



[color="#1c2837"]At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus.
The left arm is solid, with the elbow and the back of the left hand; we will say, target bound.
The arm entire arm is torqued.
The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around.
The left arm is being leveraged by the right hip.[/color]

[color="#1c2837"]you are using words like leverage which implies there is somehow a lever involved linking the right hip and the left arm [/color]

[color="#1c2837"]inward medial rotation of left humerus while the left forearm is supinating after the left wrist is uncocked !! suggests a slow down of release late in the downswing[/color]

[color="#1c2837"]lets look from another camera angle and see if this [/color]
[color="#1c2837"][b]"The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around[/b]" [/color]
[color="#1c2837"] really happens [/color]
[/quote]

[color="#1c2837"]"you are using words like leverage which implies there is somehow a lever involved linking the right hip and the left arm"

Yes, the Spine.

[/color]"[color="#1c2837"]inward medial rotation of left humerus while the left forearm is supinating after the left wrist is uncocked !! suggests a slow down of release late in the downswing"

[/color]Even further removing the clubhead from impact, an acclerated delay of the strike with increasing velocity.
Uncocking and releasing is a compound action.