Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?

[eightiron]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1311984172' post='3434733']
[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1311983802' post='3434722']
Squish, you REALLY should have retained your aninomininity like Joe and 8iron. In this imperfect world, it's a hell of a lot easier to say what something isn't.

That video is just Kerosene on a campfire lol.
[/quote]

LOL eightiron's swing is awesome just look at the videos...wait....where are they? never mind....
[/quote]

What did you bust me for?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1312011771' post='3435530']

The spine.

It's a compound action.

Not slapping down, I am hitting up, down is a given.

Not hitting with the body dragging the club through, I hit with the hands, The body reacts.
[/quote]

what are you hitting up with?

what is the lever?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1312017072' post='3435563']
[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1312007976' post='3435493']
Like the overwhelming majority of participants here, I have nothing to offer in terms of expertise regarding the golf swing other than enthusiasm.

Martinez made the statement that "In this imperfect world, it's a hell of a lot easier to say what something isn't." Mmm. This statement seemed odd to me because while evident that Martinez has something very valid to offer in terms of golf swing instruction, it is apparently not easy AT ALL to describe 'what is'.

After viewing his recently-available instructional video, many of us were left scratching our heads, wondering what was Martinez trying to explain. This statement is not intended to be a side swipe at his creative ideas, but rather a hearty agreement with his preface that we all live in "an imperfect world."

A portion of this thread has been devoted to the 1-iron, the cleek, the master iron. Ultimately, I believe that the proof is in the pudding; that is, if one can hit it well, they are no mere armchair golfer. I will quickly admit that I have no special skills when it comes to wielding this extended butter knife; however, it takes no special skills of any kind to note that Martinez swings different from Hogan and that Hogan swings different from Moe Norman and that Moe Norman swings different from Squish and that Squish swings different than Jim Furyk. Each bears their own swing fingerprint. Big deal.

The real question is who took the skin?
[/quote]

That's how I feel.

With the fundamentals, the concepts in mind the golfer bares his own signature or style.
That is forever changing.

A analogy I like to use is Hendrix playing his voodoo chile, or little wing, signature masterpieces.
No one could ever play those like him as it was his concept for works.

But SRV took those works and made his own hits.

Stevie did not play them lick for lick, it would not be an honest effort.
Instead he made it his own as he first understood and used the theroy, then created something in his style using the concepts.
Which is better? Neither They both satisfy the mind.

From Vardon, Braid to Mitchell, Hogan to Watson the concepts are there, but they don't look the same.

But all were champions utilizing the basic fundamentals.

[b]I have said mine is like Braid or Jones, but it's my style using the concepts.[/b]
And I get what I need, which is a repeating swing so I can play the game and repair as needed.
[/quote]


You mean Bobby Jones ? In what way do you swing like him?

[jak_bot]

I can see Hogan's Heroes are back to normal. For awhile there things were pretty boring.

[Cwing]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311109356' post='3405356']
[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1311086787' post='3404137']
Not sure the intent of original post...but he hit one of the most famous 1 iron shots in golf, Merion, 72nd hole of the 1950 US Open, as we all know.

(I guess Jack's one iron at Baltustrol, 72nd hole of US Open was quite famous also. (1967, I think).
[/quote]


LYG,

Thank you for the response regarding Merion. I will google that. Honestly, I don't know that much about Hogan's playing history.

Sorry if the intent of the original post was unclear.

It just seems that nowadays no one carries a 1-iron. I was sipping my coffee this morning and wondered if Ben Hogan carried one, used one effectively. If he did, then I question what went wrong after Five Lessons - The Modern Fundamentals of Golf was published? It seems that modern instruction concentrates on 2 things - deciphering Hogan's book & hitting down on the ball in an effort to create a divot from the earth at one's feet. When I try to hit down on the ball with a 1-iron, the results are worthless.

Ultimately, I was wondering if any of the Hogan's Heroes carry 1-irons and could shed a little light on this very dark subject.
[/quote]



I didn't read the whole thread so this may be covered. Different clubs, different ball.

[two stroke]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1312029610' post='3435687']
Given the comment from someone who purchased it that ... "After viewing his recently-available instructional video, many of us were left scratching our heads, wondering what was Martinez trying to explain ... " can't say Im motivated to spend the $35 to try and find out either! lol.

But seriously, I would say offering a [u]full refund [/u]to the buyers is in order.
[/quote]


The content on the Martinez video is interesting. Martinez is a creative thinker and has his finger on an interesting aspect of the swing. Golf instruction is very challenging because - for whatever devilish reason - the swing defies description. Those who can swing the golf club effectively seem to wish to share it with those of us who can't.

Hogan's books, while very interesting, are difficult to understand on a practical level. That being said, I do not expect a full refund from Ben Hogan or his publishers.

Ultimately, I suppose we must learn this information on our own. I applaud gentlemen like Squish and Martinez who try to explain what works for them.

[grahler]

Whats impractical about Five Lessons?

[natep]

5 Lessons is Hogan describing his swing based on his feels, which are not necessarily what he actually did IMO.

[dap]

Getting back on topic...could Hogan use a 1 iron?

Does Rudolf Nureyev look good in tights?

Does Dariusz J drink and post?

[grahler]

Did Fanny get excited when Henrik took off his pants?

[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Was TGM written by a 15 handicap? [/size][/color]
[color="#1C2837"] [/color]
[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Can Steve Stricker putt? [/size][/color]

[JD3]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1312043117' post='3436265']
Ultimately, I suppose we must learn this information on our own. I applaud gentlemen like Squish and Martinez who try to explain what works for them.
[/quote]
how does it work for them? What have they achieved?

[martinez]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1312060638' post='3436955']
[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1312043117' post='3436265']
Ultimately, I suppose we must learn this information on our own. I applaud gentlemen like Squish and Martinez who try to explain what works for them.
[/quote]
how does it work for them? What have they achieved?
[/quote]

Not that I am the most ambitious person on the planet, but I've achieved more as a teacher than I ever thought I would....but again, you continue to make comments based on very little knowledge. Again...if you wanna play the bad guy, look at Joe's latest effort. He took the most inane thing about one of my posts and turned it against me....genius.

[quote][color=#1C2837][size=2]ah the perfect world : full of anonymous customers with no anonymous criticism, lmao.[/size][/color][/quote]
Not true Joe, in the perfect world there are no customers...nothing to kill or die for.....and no religion too.
Joe, there is always going to be criticism. I have had my share I just can't abide willful ignorance.


Ben Hogan could still hit a 1iron, but he wouldn't carry one today. (just to stay on topic)

[JD3]

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1312062652' post='3437017']
Not that I am the most ambitious person on the planet, but I've achieved more as a teacher than I ever thought I would....but again, you continue to make comments based on very little knowledge. Again...if you wanna play the bad guy, look at Joe's latest effort. He took the most inane thing about one of my posts and turned it against me....genius.

[/quote]
So you've sold some clincs and videos. And now a number of the paying customers are "scratching their heads" trying to figure out what you said. But at least you got paid, so be it.

But I'm asking of you and Squish, what verifiable, Important accomplishments have you had as a player since figuring it all out?

Something the rest of us would find impressive. Not by your own lazy man standards.

[Chappie]

Want a modern 1 iron? Play a 2 iron. It's a 1 iron with more forgiveness and with todays shaft lengths, more distance.

[martinez]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1312063895' post='3437066']

So you've sold some clincs and videos. And now a number of the paying customers are "scratching their heads" trying to figure out what you said. But at least you got paid, so be it.

But I'm asking of you and Squish, what verifiable, Important accomplishments have you had as a player since figuring it all out?

Something the rest of us would find impressive. Not by your own lazy man standards.
[/quote]

You do understand what professional Golfers do to earn a living right? You need so much help just with the basic stuff.

If people bought the tape and they didn't understand aspects of it, there are avenues to ask questions etc online.



I have not played in so much as a 9 hole chook run in 3 years. I'm not sure if that impresses you or anyone else......nor do I care...we are now back to square one where I say I'm not looking to you for credibility.

If you're going to continue this inane crap, maybe you could pay Joe or 8 for an online lesson in having a clue before the next round?

[two stroke]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1312048721' post='3436489']
Whats impractical about Five Lessons?


[/quote]

Grahler,

The definition of the word 'practical' as I have used it, was intended to indicate that which is capable of being put to use, that which is beyond mere theory, speculation or ideals. Practical as it relates to practice. Five Lessons is a great book, full of wonderful illustrations and spirited prose; however, I am speculating that the gross majority of readers find the information & instruction difficult to assimilate with daily practice. If this were not the case, we would all be shooting sub-par rounds regularly. Based on the writing here by many posters, this is clearly not the case.

The word 'impractical' as used in your question, "What's impractical about Five Lessons?" would indicate that which would be unwise to implement, that which would offer no useful content. This is not what I intended to suggest. I apologize if my word choice left some readers confused.

(Unrelated aside: Is it always this hostile in this forum?)

[jak_bot]

I remember reading a magazine that Ben had some kind of secret. Is that true?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1312062652' post='3437017']...if you wanna play the bad guy, look at Joe's latest effort. [b]He took the most inane thing about one of my posts[/b] and turned it against me....genius.

[quote][color=#1C2837][size=2]ah the perfect world : full of anonymous customers with no anonymous criticism, lmao.[/size][/color][/quote]
[/quote]


no, i took [b]your first post[/b] in this thread, which was about my anonymity

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1311983802' post='3434722']
Squish, you REALLY should have retained your aninomininity like Joe and 8iron. In this imperfect world, it's a hell of a lot easier to say what something isn't.

That video is just Kerosene on a campfire lol.
[/quote]

...and pointed out your tired old double standards on online anonymity.

if it wasnt for the anonymous nature of the internet youd still be anonymous. i really think its time you got over it, ...the vast majority of people online use pseudonyms, lol.

and to be fair to jd, when you were selling seats for your first world clinic, you said you didnt like teaching and were heading for the tour after the trip. you always had the short game, now you had the total game. not that you did it to sell out the clinics or didnt learn to love teaching or whatever, but your the one who published it here about how you would demonstratively benefit from your discoveries.

[two stroke]

"Ben Hogan could still hit a 1iron, but he wouldn't carry one today. (just to stay on topic)" - Martinez


Ah, the topic...

Thank you.

Your comment is interesting and has caused me to wonder again.

Mr. Martinez, why would Hogan choose against carrying a 1-iron today? Because of the scarcity of balata balls?

Or some other reason?

[JD3]

@two stroke, just a completely bogus post. what's "impractical" about "sound setup, arms body connection, elbows close together, complete shoulder turn, lower body initiates downswing, weight moving to front side, hit the ball!" It exemplifies applied instruction as opposed to vague theory. most people don't get to a "+" handicap because most don't have the ability, not because of Ben Hogan and 5L's. It's the top selling golf instruction book OF ALL TIME, to a reader base that mostly craves "tips" not theory. Your post is so silly I'm tempted to sympathize with Martinez, and would rather have read another of Squish's ramblings. Wow, imagine that.

Bottom line: don't get preyed on by someone selling you the path thru Hogan goes thru some other guru. You'll be further away and lighter in the wallet

[jak_bot]

The importance of the 1-iron, shall never go without notice that its place in the history of golf is paramount in the ability to achieve greatness.

[martinez]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1312070156' post='3437270']
if it wasnt for the anonymous nature of the internet youd still be anonymous. i really think its time you got over it, ...the vast majority of people online use pseudonyms, lol.
[b]I'm well over it Joe. I understand that most people that use pseudonyms do so because the reality is more often than not a major let down and disappointment [/b](case in point this thread and Squish's video) [b], and it's a good way to avoid that. I would still be anonymous had I chosen to remain that way, so I fail to see how the 'anonymous' nature of the internet had anything to do with me NOT being anonymous. It was a choice. I think you need to look at where the internet has gone in terms of a direction. Social networking is now the 'biggest' thing on the internet....most of that is NOT anonymous. Maybe when you began your anonymous foray into the cyber-world you were in the majority, [/b]

and to be fair to jd, when you were selling seats for your first world clinic, you said you didnt like teaching and were heading for the tour after the trip. you always had the short game, now you had the total game. not that you did it to sell out the clinics or didnt learn to love teaching or whatever, but your the one who published it here about how you would demonstratively benefit from your discoveries.
[/quote]
You're just making stuff up based on a flawed memory Joe, I did say that, but quite a while before I headed off to do some teaching I retracted my statements about going to Q-School here in Australia and had decided that I wanted to teach. Any thoughts I had about playing took a back seat to that, and then circumstances on that trip changed dramatically. I may play in the future, I may not. I am in the early stages of a teaching career....one that I never would have thought I would be doing a few years ago. Again JD's outstanding lack of comprehension took that to mean I was a 'lazy man'....no...a lazy man would have stayed in a dead end teaching gig and anonymously snipe post on the internet as opposed to open themselves up to scrutiny. Now, I think I have made myself pretty clear, so I'll retreat in to the background and let you guys get back to what you do best

[jak_bot]

To all the participants and lurkers in this thread, in your opinion what is the most important picture/drawing from Five Lessons?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[i]"the vast majority of people online use pseudonyms"[/i], i said nothing about exclusively.

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1312072350' post='3437384']...so I'll retreat in to the background and let you guys get back to what you do best
[/quote]

i thought you were in the background, seen as you've been logging in anonymously, lol.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1312070302' post='3437281']
"Ben Hogan could still hit a 1iron, but he wouldn't carry one today. (just to stay on topic)" - Martinez


Ah, the topic...

Thank you.

Your comment is interesting and has caused me to wonder again.

Mr. Martinez, [b]why would Hogan choose against carrying a 1-iron today? Because of the scarcity of balata balls?[/b]

Or some other reason?
[/quote]

A few reasons IMO. First, Hogan was very forward looking in terms of equipment. Back in the early 80's he said he'd play a solid ball over a wound ball amongst other things he said and experimented with (including a long putter back in the late 60's). Secondly, in his prime, greens were very slow and you didn't need a high trajectory to hold a green. Third, the modern molded ball doesn't spin as much as the wound balata, so they don't fly as high and they land with a shallower angle of descent (remember the old "rising fastball" that you could hit with a balata?). Ever actually try to hit a modern ball with an old 1 iron? I do all the time. Almost impossible to hit it high without changing your swing and Hogan was known as being a medium to low ball hitter.

[eightiron]

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1312072350' post='3437384']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1312070156' post='3437270']
if it wasnt for the anonymous nature of the internet youd still be anonymous. i really think its time you got over it, ...the vast majority of people online use pseudonyms, lol.
[b]I'm well over it Joe. I understand that most people that use pseudonyms do so because the reality is more often than not a major let down and disappointment [/b](case in point this thread and Squish's video) [b], and it's a good way to avoid that. I would still be anonymous had I chosen to remain that way, so I fail to see how the 'anonymous' nature of the internet had anything to do with me NOT being anonymous. It was a choice. I think you need to look at where the internet has gone in terms of a direction. Social networking is now the 'biggest' thing on the internet....most of that is NOT anonymous. Maybe when you began your anonymous foray into the cyber-world you were in the majority, [/b]

and to be fair to jd, when you were selling seats for your first world clinic, you said you didnt like teaching and were heading for the tour after the trip. you always had the short game, now you had the total game. not that you did it to sell out the clinics or didnt learn to love teaching or whatever, but your the one who published it here about how you would demonstratively benefit from your discoveries.
[/quote]
You're just making stuff up based on a flawed memory Joe, I did say that, but quite a while before I headed off to do some teaching I retracted my statements about going to Q-School here in Australia and had decided that I wanted to teach. Any thoughts I had about playing took a back seat to that, and then circumstances on that trip changed dramatically. I may play in the future, I may not. I am in the early stages of a teaching career....one that I never would have thought I would be doing a few years ago. Again JD's outstanding lack of comprehension took that to mean I was a 'lazy man'....no...a lazy man would have stayed in a dead end teaching gig and anonymously snipe post on the internet as opposed to open themselves up to scrutiny. Now, I think I have made myself pretty clear, so I'll retreat in to the background and let you guys get back to what you do best



[/quote]

Not so sure about what guys do best hey marty, but you sure as heck showed some expertise in sniping , but what makes you think that you have more credibility than others ? your golf swing on the forum? man if that was my swing I wouldn't even keep it on the video camera let alone post it

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1312073003' post='3437412']
To all the participants and lurkers in this thread, in your opinion what is the most important picture/drawing from Five Lessons?
[/quote]

The complete (where you can see the clubhead as well) dtl view at impact... Lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1312068236' post='3437217']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1312048721' post='3436489']
Whats impractical about Five Lessons?


[/quote]

Grahler,

The definition of the word 'practical' as I have used it, was intended to indicate that which is capable of being put to use, that which is beyond mere theory, speculation or ideals. Practical as it relates to practice. Five Lessons is a great book, full of wonderful illustrations and spirited prose; however, I am speculating that the gross majority of readers find the information & instruction difficult to assimilate with daily practice. If this were not the case, we would all be shooting sub-par rounds regularly. Based on the writing here by many posters, this is clearly not the case.

The word 'impractical' as used in your question, "What's impractical about Five Lessons?" would indicate that which would be unwise to implement, that which would offer no useful content. This is not what I intended to suggest. I apologize if my word choice left some readers confused.

(Unrelated aside: Is it always this hostile in this forum?)
[/quote]

If that's the standard, which golf book instructional is practical then? Not being sarcastic, really want to know.. Which one out there will on it's own would make most of us shoot sub par rounds? If there's even one, then your right...

Re hostile...only if you're sensitive...I sense some are enjoying it..it brings out drama...helps em get perked up more... Lol my opinion is if you felt being attacked when someone here disagrees (even in a "hostile" manner), I'd say you knew deep inside you you're wrong or maybe wrong and that "hostile" dude is correct or maybe correct...at least for my old friend who SSTARTED learnng only when "hostiled" and treated it as a wakeup call instead of an attack... But thats just him... Lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='martinez' timestamp='1312065622' post='3437129']
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1312063895' post='3437066']

So you've sold some clincs and videos. And now a number of the paying customers are "scratching their heads" trying to figure out what you said. But at least you got paid, so be it.

But I'm asking of you and Squish, what verifiable, Important accomplishments have you had as a player since figuring it all out?

Something the rest of us would find impressive. Not by your own lazy man standards.
[/quote]

You do understand what professional Golfers do to earn a living right? You need so much help just with the basic stuff.

If people bought the tape and they didn't understand aspects of it, there are avenues to ask questions etc online.



I have not played in so much as a 9 hole chook run in 3 years. I'm not sure if that impresses you or anyone else......nor do I care...we are now back to square one where I say I'm not looking to you for credibility.

If you're going to continue this inane crap, maybe you could pay Joe or 8 for an online lesson in having a clue before the next round?
[/quote]

I have no intention of licking Joe nor 8's a55es here (bec an old friend have done it before already... Lol...), but I think you would learn a hell of a lot by understanding all their posts, hostile or not, but especially the "hostile" ones ( though I admit you gotta be an expert in reverse engineering.. Lmao ...plus reverse psychology will help... Lol...)... and do they charge for online lessons?..no... And I think you'd learn a hell of a lot from their "up in your face" style than the "abstract" and/or "patting the dog" kind of thing... again that may be just me..and my old friend...lol Besides, you don't see their faces when you read their posts, and you don't hear the tone of their voice..so you never know they may be smiling with a very concerned and helpful, Samaritan-like, face/look trying to save you from getting deluded trying to figure out Hogan... Rofl... (i doubt it though... Lol) and with a voice sounding like your father trying to straighten you up for the real life out there (in golfing terms of course).. Lol (again i doubt it... Lol)... An old friend of mine tried to even ask how much they're charging for their knowledge and it fell on deaf ears...and they still help as far as I know... My point is just is trying to make it appear that they charge for online lessons is unfair... Really apologize sincerely for saying this, but their scattered "hostile" posts in this forum and next door ones are more useful and effective than yours the vid included...but that's just me, of course... I even wonder why they don't teach like you...maybe/I'm guessing it's using what they know they like...playing...probably hated a few bucks for telling the poor student nothing practical (for the student that is...lol)... Cheers to all!

Sorry for the sermon...lol This is what happens when you can't play... Rofl.. The weather I mean... Lol

[dap]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I_oV0qd_IY&feature=related