Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?

[two stroke]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1311388524' post='3415891']
getting back on topic....can bruce lee one inch punch?
[/quote]

dap,

Your question fosters intrigue.

The legendary one inch punch? Not so sure.
Ping pong? A completely different story.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbzzcpsAPo8"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VbzzcpsAPo8[/url]

Which brings us right back on topic. (Although, I must admit, I am enjoying the entire conversation.)

Mastery and Control.

Additional information gleaned from Power Golf on Hogan's 1-iron technique:

"The 1-iron, or driving iron, is the most difficult club in the bag to master. In order to obtain maximum results with it you have to use more power than with any other club.
There is so little loft on a one iron that you have the double problem of trying to hit this shot much harder while still trying to get the ball into the air with a controlled flight. This means that in order to accomplish that, you must reach the lowest arc of your swing just in front of the ball.
The reason this is essential is that it is the only way that you can hit the ball squarely and at the same time impart the degree of underspin which is absolutely necessary for control. Again I emphasize the fact that you must have a great degree of underspin on iron shots to maintain any control of them at all."

[two stroke]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1311222442' post='3409799']
Coleman video:
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/34GOeyjr0Uw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Some funny/interesting things in this video:

When George Coleman tells Hogan "those shafts might be a little stiff for you." lol
If you watch carefully, you can see the balls splash into the ocean
George Coleman's back yard looks like it was a putting green (complete with holes)
George's wife sounds sauced!
Hogan's super slow motion swing (and the differences to his actual full speed move) and the fact that he actually did super slow motion training decades before it became popular.
The grip part is the best part IMO (especially the part about lag pressure and the pressure points in the hands).
[/quote]


hoganfan924, great video. Thanks for sharing.

[JD3]

This certified fitness instructor would likely have told Austin to work on hamstring and calf flexibility

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuP2Vb8Jqcg

[Squish]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1311387411' post='3415840']
How did you guys get to this from a post about a 1 iron??


[/quote]


To swing a 1 iron one has to apply pressure to the handle of the club.
It cannot be a relaxed drag through impact, waiting for the clubhead to release because there is not enough time
as the pivot or turn is so fast.

All Irons have a positive lead angle wherein the hands lead the blade.
With a 1 or 2 iron thats only about 1/2 inch so that is not enough lead to play with.
If one holds it, they deloft and the ball takes a dive. Hard to hit.

Drivers have a negative lead angle, where the hands are set behind; though low lofted, they hit up by design.
I believe hybrids fall into that catagory. easy to hit.

So fix the club vs. fix ones swing? I don't think so.

So it is the opinion of most Hoganites that he simply held the club.
Austin says hogan did not do this. He beleived hogan pressured and released the handle and hit the ball.
In the photos we know Mike is throwing the clubhead, as that is what he taught, and arrives at P7 in a way simular to hogan.

For myself to hit a 1 iron, I accelerate the club head through impact using my hands; Hogans pressure points on the handle.

[mesegrn]

I bet he could hit this one!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Ben-Hogan-Apex-5-Frosted-Back-1-Iron-/260815561141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb9d1a1b5#ht_1084wt_1039

[two stroke]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311420465' post='3416394']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1311387411' post='3415840']
How did you guys get to this from a post about a 1 iron??


[/quote]


To swing a 1 iron one has to apply pressure to the handle of the club.
It cannot be a relaxed drag through impact, waiting for the clubhead to release because there is not enough time
as the pivot or turn is so fast.

All Irons have a positive lead angle wherein the hands lead the blade.
With a 1 or 2 iron thats only about 1/2 inch so that is not enough lead to play with.
If one holds it, they deloft and the ball takes a dive. Hard to hit.

Drivers have a negative lead angle, where the hands are set behind; though low lofted, they hit up by design.
I believe hybrids fall into that catagory. easy to hit.

So fix the club vs. fix ones swing? I don't think so.

So it is the opinion of most Hoganites that he simply held the club.
Austin says hogan did not do this. He beleived [b]hogan pressured and released the handle[/b] and hit the ball.
In the photos we know Mike is throwing the clubhead, as that is what he taught, and arrives at P7 in a way simular to hogan.

For myself to hit a 1 iron, I accelerate the club head through impact using my hands; Hogans pressure points on the handle.
[/quote]


Squish, what do you mean by this? "Hogan pressured and released the handle..."

I checked Hogan's Power Golf for guidance, but only found this. After discussing the importance of creating a "maximum of underspin" for a good iron shot to the green, Hogan mentions the need for one extra ingredient."There must be also a sharpness to the blow struck. By that I mean that the ball must be hit hard with the hands during the course of the swing." BH

The pictures of Hogan's shaft action in Power Golf have always intrigued me. Hogan's shafts during the downswing look like he is using a fishing rod. Doesn't seem like he is using stiff shafted clubs at all. Even if there exists some sort of exaggerated photographic distortion in the reference photos used for the illustrations, the curve of Hogan's shaft changes direction.

[Squish]

Thats the snap; Braid says it's sort of a flick, a corkscrewing motion.
You can let it snap or make it snap.
To hit the one, you have to make it snap.

Thats 20 yards right there with that motion done casually.

Hogan [b]"These are the [size="5"]Pressure[/size] points"[/b]

[sgcoelnfd1]

Amazing advice in a thread which some thought was "tongue-in-cheek," Squishes description of hitting a one iron is right on, imo. When compared to hitting a wedge, with no impact pressure against the index finger/palm joint (on the right hand) hitting a one-iron relies heavily on applying pressure in that place. Since some have advised buying a used one iron it might benefit you to know elastomeric roofing paint is a great coating for a vintage grip, if you want to maintain the grip but still play the club. At some point you're going to have to remove the coating to restore the grip but until then the grip itself will be protected.

[JD3]

This thread was just another transparent ploy to exploit Hogans legacy to elevate inferior players and swing models. If you want to learn Hogan STUDY HOGAN.

[two stroke]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1311471136' post='3417756']
This thread was just another transparent ploy to exploit Hogans legacy to elevate others. If you want to learn Hogan STUDY HOGAN.
[/quote]


JD3,

Not sure regarding your accusation of transparent ploys, but I assure you that some of us here are indeed studying Hogan.

Hey, wait up, fellow scholars & thrill seekers. The multi-pronged original question has just sprouted a new prong.

"Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?"

Apparently, he could, but he didn't!

Huh?!

Check it out. Five Lessons, page 13 - regarding his historic shot at Merion (very kindly cited by LYG & Not Yogi).

"However, having worked hard on my golf with all the mentality and all the physical resources available to me, I have managed to play some very good shots at very important stages of major tournaments. To cite one example which many of my friends remember with particular fondness - and I, too, for that matter - in 1950 at Merion, I needed a 4 on the 72nd to tie for first in the Open. To get that 4 I needed to hit an elusive, well-trapped, slightly plateaued green from about 200 yards out. There are easier shots in golf. I went with a [size="4"][b]two-iron [/b][/size]and played what was in my honest judgment one of the best shots of my last round, perhaps one of the best I played during the tournament… I'd been practicing that shot since I was 12 years old."

[JD3]

That some of you are claiming major swing changes are required between clubs different by 1/4" in length and 3 degrees loft, highlights the silliness of this thread and lack of credibility by those posters.

[rex235]

[b]Great Post! Exceptional video!

[/b]We're coming up on the 14th anniversary of Ben Hogan (1912-1997) leaving this world....

Peskin's iconic 1 iron photo of Hogan at the 72nd Hole of the US Open at Merion...was a snapshot of excellence....custom metal spiked shoes and all....

This tape appears to have been shot in FL, at the oceanside home of Ben Hogan's best friend, George Coleman (most likely near Seminole GC?)

George Coleman also left this world in 1997 just a few days after Hogan.

Twenty years ago, I wrote a letter to the Ben Hogan Golf Company. A woman from Customer Service said they received my letter, and asked me what I wanted.

My response "It seemed that Hogan had become a RH ONLY golf company, and it was a shame Ben Hogan didn't make more LH golf equipment."

She told me to send a note to George Coleman, C/O Ben Hogan Golf Company...

Neither Hogan nor Coleman wrote back, but Ben Hogan Golf made LH EDGE irons.

Unfortunately, these were NOT as good as their RH models....

Remember Bernhard Langer won the '93 Masters with Hogan Apex shafts in his Wilson Irons......

Though Mike Weir did win more than once on the PGA Tour with a set of Hogan Apex Plus Irons......

[JOEGOLFWRX]

hogan could hit a minus 2 iron, as can anyone with a decent swing that doesn't rely on big shaft lean or big curvature. there are no bio-mechanical dectats to hitting a 1 iron as mentioned here, they are just necessary feels for a player that differentiate the clubs through the bag for that player, and the feels are as much a symptom of their chosen pattern as their own ability. do you think 'pingman' has a right forefinger ? or a man with one arm ?

look up d plane for a start, a 1 iron proportionately tilts the plane which dictates curvature more than a 2 iron etc for each degree it is open or closed, ie. curvature is exaggerated.

the loft of the face relative to the angle of attack needs to be positive to get 'underspin', shaftlean reduces that loft. whatever loft you end up with at impact, clubhead speed will increase the underspin. without underspin and dimples the ball flies about 2/3 the distance, like a plane without wings.

the club is longer so is harder to 'control' especially if your swing necessitates kicking the sweetspot out to hit it. it also should create greater swing speed from your rotation which makes it a harder to control.

so yeah its a good training aid, encourages precision of clubface, path, and efficient power. the how is mostly up to you but without the necessary swing speed the why is another mater and the training is compromised to say the least, you'd have to factor in that the distance and height would be reduced and you were mostly working on face and path. if your never going to bag it imo youd be better of putting a 1 iron head on a spare version of the longest iron in your bag.

if you read 5 lessons you'll see hogan didnt swing bow to cupped with effectively an independent rightarm throw from the top. its a simpler way to achieve power but repeatability is theoretically limited. hogans method like a one iron encourages more precision, mostly more precision of the pivot. sure you could throw your arm at the ball while running at it, like most other stick and ball games.

and oh yeah the book was a typo, supposedly.

[Squish]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1311499204' post='3418471']
hogan could hit a minus 2 iron, as can anyone with a decent swing that doesn't rely on big shaft lean or big curvature. there are no bio-mechanical dectats to hitting a 1 iron as mentioned here, they are just necessary feels for a player that differentiate the clubs through the bag for that player, and the feels are as much a symptom of their chosen pattern as their own ability. do you think 'pingman' has a right forefinger ? or a man with one arm ?

look up d plane for a start, a 1 iron proportionately tilts the plane which dictates curvature more than a 2 iron etc for each degree it is open or closed, ie. curvature is exaggerated.

the loft of the face relative to the angle of attack needs to be positive to get 'underspin', shaftlean reduces that loft. whatever loft you end up with at impact, clubhead speed will increase the underspin. without underspin and dimples the ball flies about 2/3 the distance, like a plane without wings.

the club is longer so is harder to 'control' especially if your swing necessitates kicking the sweetspot out to hit it. it also should create greater swing speed from your rotation which makes it a harder to control.

so yeah its a good training aid, encourages precision of clubface, path, and efficient power. the how is mostly up to you but without the necessary swing speed the why is another mater and the training is compromised to say the least, you'd have to factor in that the distance and height would be reduced and you were mostly working on face and path. if your never going to bag it imo youd be better of putting a 1 iron head on a spare version of the longest iron in your bag.

if you read 5 lessons you'll see hogan didnt swing bow to cupped with effectively an independent rightarm throw from the top. its a simpler way to achieve power but repeatability is theoretically limited. hogans method like a one iron encourages more precision, mostly more precision of the pivot. sure you could throw your arm at the ball while running at it, like most other stick and ball games.

and oh yeah the book was a typo, supposedly.
[/quote]

Great post Joe,

But in all great swings the right elbow cannot and must not straight until P8.
If it does, one has retarded or stopped the compound pivot. A flip will result.

The pivot leverages the left arm and brings one into position, but to leave the right hand out of the shot at impact is a huge mistake for both
power and accuracy.

There is no throw of the right arm
It's done with the hand, the wrist through supination. The right arm gradually extends to P8.
The best thing to do with the right arm is to keep it out of the stroke and let react to the pivot and outward CF of the clubhead.
But the wrist.... great strikers hit with both hands.
They release the head of the club. Why even wind it to the top if you are not going the release it.
The throw is a twirl from the top maximizing left wrist bowing.
It's a flick of the wrist that's all it is.

A flick in either direction requires a snap of the forearm; that snaps the club.
But the pivot has already brought the hands ahead of the ball.
Timed with the snap of the hips, correctly, simultaneously, a beautiful thing happens.
That flick off the finger pad gets me from 98mph to 114mph.
It's a smart smacking feeling when it hit the ball well, a spank, the body reacts.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

im certainly not claiming hogan didn't give it a whack with both hands, what im saying is that hogans swing looks more inline more horizontal hinge with a later connected hit than austin which is more in to out vertical hinge with a more under over sweep release. it stands to reason imo that hogan would be less likely to feel the need for any conscious feels of added corkscrewing or right finger pressure to hit a 1 iron. so as a 'hoganite' im not sure its constructive instruction long term let a lone any golf law dictat, who knows how the op swings. pressure is good, but added pressure in one finger re:hogan, not so much imo.

austin had a nice flail at it but the pivot for all the biomechanical explanations was sloppy compared to hogan. if hogan came to austin and he was spraying it he'd tell him to sway more back, 2nd tilt more through, aim more right field, feel more corkscrew, its all unnecessary for hogan cause he was never 'blocked' even though he might look like he is going to be to some from the top. hogan does a lot of similar things to great ball strikers that's no surprise, but he doesn't do everything the same to any imo, and the theories that claim to have him licked are always the same, rightfield humps or bugaloo pivots. nothing wrong with it, im sure you could win a major with it, but you wouldn't have thousands of people debating it 60 years later. you know his peers say he never 'came out' of a shot, that plus power, ..now that's a pivot.

(nb: any tgm guys im aware i may be abusing some tgm terms, im too lazy to learn how to speak tgm.)

[rex235]

My apologies for commenting on the video, and not answering the post question-

Yes- Ben Hogan could and did hit a 1 iron, though those 1 irons later made by Ben Hogan golf company (Teevons post) were not that club.

That club...Hogan called "an old and trusted friend" ... resides at Golf House in NJ..... with the wear spot the size of a nickel.....

and Former USGA Executive Director David Fay recently announced he "hit a few shots with".....

Photos would settle any doubts..

[two stroke]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1311499204' post='3418471']
hogan could hit a minus 2 iron, as can anyone with a decent swing that doesn't rely on big shaft lean or big curvature. there are no bio-mechanical dectats to hitting a 1 iron as mentioned here, they are just necessary feels for a player that differentiate the clubs through the bag for that player, and the feels are as much a symptom of their chosen pattern as their own ability. do you think 'pingman' has a right forefinger ? or a man with one arm ?

look up d plane for a start, a 1 iron proportionately tilts the plane which dictates curvature more than a 2 iron etc for each degree it is open or closed, ie. curvature is exaggerated.

the loft of the face relative to the angle of attack needs to be positive to get 'underspin', shaftlean reduces that loft. whatever loft you end up with at impact, clubhead speed will increase the underspin. without underspin and dimples the ball flies about 2/3 the distance, like a plane without wings.

the club is longer so is harder to 'control' especially if your swing necessitates kicking the sweetspot out to hit it. it also should create greater swing speed from your rotation which makes it a harder to control.

so yeah its a good training aid, encourages precision of clubface, path, and efficient power. the how is mostly up to you but without the necessary swing speed the why is another mater and the training is compromised to say the least, you'd have to factor in that the distance and height would be reduced and you were mostly working on face and path. if your never going to bag it imo youd be better of putting a 1 iron head on a spare version of the longest iron in your bag.

if you read 5 lessons you'll see hogan didnt swing bow to cupped with effectively an independent rightarm throw from the top. its a simpler way to achieve power but repeatability is theoretically limited. hogans method like a one iron encourages more precision, mostly more precision of the pivot. sure you could throw your arm at the ball while running at it, like most other stick and ball games.

[b]and oh yeah the book was a typo, supposedly.[/b]
[/quote]

JOEGOLFWRX,

Thank you for taking the time to put together a well-thought-out reply.

For better or worse, I've already got the thing in my bag and am playing it off the tee. I wish I would have read about the recent suggestion of using elastomeric roofing paint on the grip earlier, but have already cut off the beautiful (rock-hard) leather grip and replaced it with a somewhat anachronistic (wonderfully tacky) modern grip. The brand new grip looks odd on this ancient weapon, but feels great. I'm not a collector of much of anything, so function defining form ruled the roost in my decision to replace the grip. The elderly gentleman mandated that I regrip it, so I don't feel guilty.

You wrote, "And, oh yeah. The book was a typo, supposedly." That is one heck of a typo. Seems very unlike Hogan to make a mistake on that word; however, the possibility exists that Hogan didn't write - or proof read - this book, but rather a hired ghost writer who didn't know all the facts. Still, Hogan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to take a mulligan. The whole history here is very new to me, so I will defer to the expertise of others.

While I piece together the best way to stroke this thing off the tee, I can't help but notice that both Squish & yourself have mentioned the pressure point on the right hand index finger. You seem to think that the pressure point here exists, but certainly not in an exaggerated way. Not sure if Squish intends to exaggerate its role, but he can speak for himself.

Hogan does take care to note the exact same pressure point in the Coleman video. (I can't help but think of Mike Maves hitting balls into the lake for his friend when I watch the Coleman video.)

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh7QDnAnQ-0"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Eh7QDnAnQ-0[/url]

[two stroke]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1311522308' post='3418908']
My apologies for commenting on the video, and not answering the post question-

Yes- Ben Hogan could and did hit a 1 iron, though those 1 irons later made by Ben Hogan golf company (Teevons post) were not that club.

That club...Hogan called "an old and trusted friend" ... resides at Golf House in NJ..... with the wear spot the size of a nickel.....

and Former USGA Executive Director David Fay recently announced he "hit a few shots with".....

Photos would settle any doubts..
[/quote]


rex235,

You seem like a respectable gentleman.

Have you seen "the wear spot the size of a nickel" on the face of this mythical club, that is, Hogan's "old and trusted friend" with your own two eyes?

If so, I will take your word and expunge all doubts immediately.

(Heck, I don't doubt that Hogan could hit this thing. I just can't do it myself. No one else seems to have much luck either, including most golf instructors in the vicinity. They all carry hybrids and tout Hogan's book as the guiding light. Something seems to be broken here.)

[dlygrisse]

 

From the USGA website, it does not show the sweetspot but this is the club in question, a Ben Hogan MacGregor 1 iron stolen from his bag after the tournament, Hogan did meticulously edit his book why it said 2 iron all these years I am not sure but later in life when the club was recovered he verified this was the club. BTW I put a protractor on this photo and it appears the lie angle is about 51*....by contrast a modern 1 iron if made would probably be a bout 6 oir 7 degrees more upright.

[rex235]

Not being much of a "Hoganista" (not that there's anything wrong with that....)

This much I do know-

There was at least one photo in a golf publication, possibly the defunct USGA GOLF JOURNAL which did show the club, and the wear spot.

The thread to the Ben Hogan confirmation of the returned article was "someone who knew what the devil he was doing"...

I may have it in the garage, but we have other fish to fry this weekend....

[rex235]

One last thing-

I know two Hoganistas....one just switched from his Hogan Apex irons after [b]38 years[/b].....he'd worn the grooves in the hitting areas out flat!

the other considers the MacGregor Ben Hogan Driver and Precision Model Irons works of art......just like his Hogan Decade Irons...and Hogan Staff Bag.

Anything Hogan made

You'll be able to identify the Hoganista tomorrow..... the 14th Anniversary of William Benjamin Hogan's passing from this world.

They bring out Persimmons, Precision/Apex/ ApexII/ Decade/ Irons, and the blade putters

("....[b][i]nothing with a (expletive deleted) [u]hole[/u] in the back of it")

[/i]all in their Hogan bags....
[/b]
Now.... got to go practice.... where are my 1 irons.......

[Staffer]

I wonder if Hogan would carry a 1 iron if he was at the height of his career today?

[moehogan]

Back in the '70's and early '80's, my buddies and I all had one irons in our bags and we hit them well. The first guy who dropped his for a 5wood took so much grief he never thought he would live it down ... lol. I still take my '73 Hogan Apex "knife" to the range and hit at least 10-15 balls with it almost every session ... really tells you how well you're swinging.

It also comes in handy when you encounter the "range expert" who offers unsolicited swing advice. You simply hand him your one iron and ask him to demonstrate ... if he flushes it, you listen. Usually you hear an excuse about his "bad back" ... LMAO.

Moe

[two stroke]

[quote name='Tingting' timestamp='1311133434' post='3406516']
read the august 2011 last pages of golf digest of how someone borrowed hogan's 1 iron. Its the last page. pretty interesting
[/quote]

Thanks, Tingting.

Golf Digest article about taking Hogan's 1-iron for a joyride:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-08/david-fay-hogan

[two stroke]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311434808' post='3416657']
Thats the snap; Braid says it's sort of a flick, a corkscrewing motion.
You can let it snap or make it snap.
To hit the one, you have to make it snap.

Thats 20 yards right there with that motion done casually.

Hogan [b]"These are the [size="5"]Pressure[/size] points"[/b]
[/quote]


The pressure points…

So whether it is emphasized or not, Hogan carefully points out the base of the index finger on the right hand as a pressure point… But Hogan insists that the right hand is not the solo performer here.

"HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left hand is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT." BH (Five Lessons)

So the question becomes, how does one exert pressure with the left hand? How does one transfer energy using the left hand? What is the pressure point on the left hand?

Perhaps it is the left thumb...

Squish mentioned that Hogan applied pressure to the handle and then released that pressure. I wonder if it would it be safe to say (and possibly more accurate) that Hogan pressurized the entire shaft? And then released that pressure?

[Squish]

[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311597056' post='3421093']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311434808' post='3416657']
Thats the snap; Braid says it's sort of a flick, a corkscrewing motion.
You can let it snap or make it snap.
To hit the one, you have to make it snap.

Thats 20 yards right there with that motion done casually.

Hogan [b]"These are the [size="5"]Pressure[/size] points"[/b]
[/quote]


The pressure points…

So whether it is emphasized or not, Hogan carefully points out the base of the index finger on the right hand as a pressure point… But Hogan insists that the right hand is not the solo performer here.

"HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left hand is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT." BH (Five Lessons)

So the question becomes, how does one exert pressure with the left hand? How does one transfer energy using the left hand? What is the pressure point on the left hand?

Perhaps it is the left thumb...

Squish mentioned that Hogan applied pressure to the handle and then released that pressure. I wonder if it would it be safe to say (and possibly more accurate) that Hogan pressurized the entire shaft? And then released that pressure?
[/quote]

Sir
It is pivot that leverages the left shoulder arm and hand on the stagital plane, the left arm and shoulders form a number 7 when activated.
The right controls the shaft and hits on the transverse plane. This is where Ben, in his final instruction at the colman's, says there is no pressure down or around the shaft.
It's just forward. Hitting with the snap be it slow or soft, quick or hard.
So the pressure of the left point is vertical on the stagital, torqued leveraged, hitting with the pivot.
The butt pad and the three fingers of the left,against the handle, a constant pressure but not locked.

At address activating those those two points, the heel, the butt pad of the left hand, and the base of the right forfinger, puts me on plane.
Now I am following the arc of clubhead through sense or feel, through those two pressure points.
Not trying to put it in some position, where one loses the trace of the clubhead.

This says a lot.

Hogan mentions the need for one extra ingredient."There must be also a sharpness to the blow struck. By that I mean that the ball must be hit hard with the hands [b]during the course of the swing.[/b]" BH

Thanks for finding that as it works for me.
If he meant at impact, I think he would have specified.

[drewspin]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311597935' post='3421126']
[quote name='two stroke' timestamp='1311597056' post='3421093']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311434808' post='3416657']
Thats the snap; Braid says it's sort of a flick, a corkscrewing motion.
You can let it snap or make it snap.
To hit the one, you have to make it snap.

Thats 20 yards right there with that motion done casually.

Hogan [b]"These are the [size="5"]Pressure[/size] points"[/b]
[/quote]


The pressure points…

So whether it is emphasized or not, Hogan carefully points out the base of the index finger on the right hand as a pressure point… But Hogan insists that the right hand is not the solo performer here.

"HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left hand is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT." BH (Five Lessons)

So the question becomes, how does one exert pressure with the left hand? How does one transfer energy using the left hand? What is the pressure point on the left hand?

Perhaps it is the left thumb...

Squish mentioned that Hogan applied pressure to the handle and then released that pressure. I wonder if it would it be safe to say (and possibly more accurate) that Hogan pressurized the entire shaft? And then released that pressure?
[/quote]

Sir
It is pivot that leverages the left shoulder arm and hand on the stagital plane, the left arm and shoulders form a number 7 when activated.
The right controls the shaft and hits on the transverse plane. This is where Ben, in his final instruction at the colman's, says there is no pressure down or around the shaft.
It's just forward. Hitting with the snap be it slow or soft, quick or hard.
So the pressure of the left point is vertical on the stagital, torqued leveraged, hitting with the pivot.
The butt pad and the three fingers of the left,against the handle, a constant pressure but not locked.

At address activating those those two points, the heel, the butt pad of the left hand, and the base of the right forfinger, puts me on plane.
Now I am following the arc of clubhead through sense or feel, through those two pressure points.
Not trying to put it in some position, where one loses the trace of the clubhead.

This says a lot.

Hogan mentions the need for one extra ingredient."There must be also a sharpness to the blow struck. By that I mean that the ball must be hit hard with the hands [b]during the course of the swing.[/b]" BH

Thanks for finding that as it works for me.
If he meant at impact, I think he would have specified.
[/quote]

Great stuff, Squish!

Hogan's hit with the hands happened only at the bottom, when the 7 was formed, the hands are roughly in front of the right leg.

It is there that the hands transition from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist. Then the hit occurs in a sycopated movement with the left arm and shoulder maintaining the kinetic chain... and the hit is through impact.

It happens so FAST it's impossible to see on film cameras of the day, but there are a few still frames that captured the move! It's quite remarkable!

Cheers,
Drew

[Squish]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311618984' post='3422200']
Great stuff, Squish!

Hogan's hit with the hands happened only at the bottom, when the 7 was formed, the hands are roughly in front of the right leg.

It is there that [b]the hands transition from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist.[/b] Then the hit occurs in a sycopated movement with the left arm and shoulder maintaining the kinetic chain... and the hit is through impact.

It happens so FAST it's impossible to see on film cameras of the day, but there are a few still frames that captured the move! It's quite remarkable!

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]

That transition is going from pronation to supination.
I have seen Hogan do that in the slot, midway down , and from the top, viewing different shots.
I call that uncocking.

It is done while palmar flexing the left and dorsal flexing the right.
With a clockwise rotation of the right forearm and a slow lateral rotation of the left humerus.
The right retains the cup and the left bows.
The compression of the right side brings those hands down to the right hip with the compound pivot.
To achieve that I get my right hip under my left shoulder.
That leveraging of the left shoulder by the advancing hip supplies the hit for the left hand.
This causes the left hip to clear.

Like I say I ,or no one for that matter can tell you what hogan really did.
All I can write about I what I see in his concepts that have worked for me as I hit every day.
I love to practice. I hit one ball chase it, and play it from all lies.

[drewspin]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311621523' post='3422343']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311618984' post='3422200']
Great stuff, Squish!

Hogan's hit with the hands happened only at the bottom, when the 7 was formed, the hands are roughly in front of the right leg.

It is there that [b]the hands transition from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist.[/b] Then the hit occurs in a sycopated movement with the left arm and shoulder maintaining the kinetic chain... and the hit is through impact.

It happens so FAST it's impossible to see on film cameras of the day, but there are a few still frames that captured the move! It's quite remarkable!

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]

That transition is going from pronation to supination.
I have seen Hogan do that in the slot, midway down , and from the top, viewing different shots.
I call that uncocking.

It is done while palmar flexing the left and dorsal flexing the right.
With a clockwise rotation of the right forearm and a slow lateral rotation of the left humerus.
The right retains the cup and the left bows.
The compression of the right side brings those hands down to the right hip with the compound pivot.
To achieve that I get my right hip under my left shoulder.

Like I say I ,or no one for that matter can tell you what hogan really did.
All I can write about I what I see in his concepts that have worked for me as I hit every day.
I love to practice. I hit one ball chase it, and play it from all lies.
[/quote]

Yes, well I try to learn from what Hogan said, what he wrote, and what we can see that he did from film and pictures (understanding the limitations of those media).

Let's say he's gotten into his pivot early, and carried the the cocked wrists down to the bottom of the slot, now the right elbow is positioned in and tight above his right hip, and his left wrist is still in dorsiflexion.

This image from 5L that Hogan found so important appears to show a gradual shift from the left to the right.

http://www.zenchili.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Hogan-left-wrist-action.jpg

However, from what I see, Hogan actually has very little radial rolling action of the left forearm.

The shift from the left hand pronating and dorsiflexing (left wrist cocked in first image in the sequence) to the left wrist supinating and palmar flexing (third image in the sequence happens VERY, VERY fast, not gradually as the Ravielli drawings would suggest. IMHO there is almost instantaneous transition in the release or uncocking into the pre-impact position from which he can "hit" with both hands.

I am focused on exploring how Hogan maintains extension and acheives this instantaneous shift into supination/palmar flexion with the left side.

Squish - I'd like to hear how you feel the rotation of the humerous assists with the transition into Supination/palmarflexion.

Do you also feel the torque increasing between the hands immediately into the uncocking?

[Squish]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311624595' post='3422520']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1311621523' post='3422343']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1311618984' post='3422200']
Great stuff, Squish!

Hogan's hit with the hands happened only at the bottom, when the 7 was formed, the hands are roughly in front of the right leg.

It is there that [b]the hands transition from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist.[/b] Then the hit occurs in a sycopated movement with the left arm and shoulder maintaining the kinetic chain... and the hit is through impact.

It happens so FAST it's impossible to see on film cameras of the day, but there are a few still frames that captured the move! It's quite remarkable!

Cheers,
Drew
[/quote]

That transition is going from pronation to supination.
I have seen Hogan do that in the slot, midway down , and from the top, viewing different shots.
I call that uncocking.

It is done while palmar flexing the left and dorsal flexing the right.
With a clockwise rotation of the right forearm and a slow lateral rotation of the left humerus.
The right retains the cup and the left bows.
The compression of the right side brings those hands down to the right hip with the compound pivot.
To achieve that I get my right hip under my left shoulder.

Like I say I ,or no one for that matter can tell you what hogan really did.
All I can write about I what I see in his concepts that have worked for me as I hit every day.
I love to practice. I hit one ball chase it, and play it from all lies.
[/quote]

Yes, well I try to learn from what Hogan said, what he wrote, and what we can see that he did from film and pictures (understanding the limitations of those media).

Let's say he's gotten into his pivot early, and carried the the cocked wrists down to the bottom of the slot, now the right elbow is positioned in and tight above his right hip, and his left wrist is still in dorsiflexion.

This image from 5L that Hogan found so important appears to show a gradual shift from the left to the right.

[url="http://www.zenchili.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Hogan-left-wrist-action.jpg"]http://www.zenchili....rist-action.jpg[/url]

However, from what I see, Hogan actually has very little radial rolling action of the left forearm.

The shift from the left hand pronating and dorsiflexing (left wrist cocked in first image in the sequence) to the left wrist supinating and palmar flexing (third image in the sequence happens VERY, VERY fast, not gradually as the Ravielli drawings would suggest. IMHO there is almost instantaneous transition in the release or uncocking into the pre-impact position from which he can "hit" with both hands.

I am focused on exploring how Hogan maintains extension and acheives this instantaneous shift into supination/palmar flexion with the left side.

Squish - I'd like to hear how you feel the rotation of the humerous assists with the transition into Supination/palmarflexion.

Do you also feel the torque increasing between the hands immediately into the uncocking?
[/quote]

Forget that IHMO crap, you have a good or bad opinion, I'd like to hear it.
I respect any golfer who tries to workout his swing.


The elbows not in and tight, but low.
Hogan was asked about that and said he never brought his elbow in packing it, he said I tried to keep them low.

The left arm has the ability to torque in opposing directions.
At the moment the left supinates in the downswing there is a medial inward rotation of the humerus.
The left arm is solid, with the elbow and the back of the left hand; we will say, target bound.
The arm entire arm is torqued.
The chest is turning bringing this arm up with the inward medial humerus, keeping the arm attached to the pect, as it brings the clubhead down and around.
The left arm is being leveraged by the right hip.

Now here is what I see as hogan's best move
At impact he releases the elbow to point it down as the chest rises. This allows the left arm to release to keep the clubface parallel to the tangent.
Even though the left arm is extended it is reverse torquing in ulna deviation with both wrists. The face never closes.
At this point both arms go into in full extension post impact at a point well ahead of the ball.