Putter designers that violate Trademark stampings of other designers

[RobotDoctor]

Is this a big deal? Should this be tolerated?

Several aftermarket companies have violated another designer's trademark stampings by altering a putter using these stamps. Is this a big deal? I think it is and people that support this practice is part of the problem. I know that the argument of "It's my putter and I will do what I want" is the common excuse. The problem is that most people that have putters altered do so to trick people on internet auction sites to purchase these. This practice is disgusting.

The example of the Slighter infringement is pictured below followed by the Trademark Registration for the 7 Point Crown.

There was a law suit in the past between Scotty Cameron and Black Oxide Service pertaining to just this issue. See link for details:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/sports/2562752/detail.html

My aim is to identify designers/aftermarket finish companies that practice stamping putters from other designers with the original designers stamps so that people have notification who to avoid in the future. Also, this will enable a thread to post issues like this instead of hijacking another thread. I did do this and apologize to those who were offended by my hijacking.

[mcbush25]

I can see your point, but I don't see it as trademark infringement when a person has their putter refinished and someone puts the original stampings on the putter. Now, if that person bought a putter from someone other than Scotty Cameron and they put the seven-point crown on it and it isn't a true Scotty Cameron then that would definitely be trademark infringement.

 

The thing that could help this would be if, for example, Scotty Cameron would offer more options in the custom shop for black oxide and other options that most people go elsewhere for since they do not offer this and other services. Once you buy the putter you own it and you can do what you want to it including having someone else refinish it and such especially when you can't get the custom shop to do it.

[choeppner]

Refinishing it isn't the problem. The problem comes in with the aftermarket stampings. It would be perfectly okay to take say a newport and send it to BOS to get a BO or 3x Black Finish. What is not okay is getting it refinished and then [ADDING STAMPINGS TO MAKE IT APPEAR TO BE A TOUR PUTTER

 

-CHRIS-

[rustyputterguy]

RobotDoctor,

Let me ask this question to clear up what your point is. I'll prevous it by saying I own one Scotty putter and love it. Everything else I own is off the shelf stuff.

Are you saying I shouldn't buy a Slighter putter because he did this?

Whether it was right or wrong, whether he knowingly infringed on someone's trademark or not, should I not buy the guy's putter because he was trying to make a customer happy?

It obviously looks like he made a mistake, but is your point that no one should buy a putter from the guy?

[RobotDoctor]

The whole point of a registered trademark is to protect the use of the item that is trademarked. This means that the 7 Point Crown is only available for the use of Scotty Cameron and nobody else. Also, as of August 29, 2006, the term "For Tour Use Only" is a registered trademark

of Scotty Cameron/Acushnet.

 

The problem lies when someone owns a putter that has aftermarket stampings that was not done my the owner of the registered trademark selling the putter and making buyers believe the work was done by the original manufacturer. Yes, if the Cameron Studio offered more choices then aftermarket alterations of Cameron putters by other sources may not be an issue, or as big of an issue. However, this is how Scotty Cameron controls what is out there and how he protects the collectors that covet his designs.

 

Good or bad, this protection is what drives the price of the collector putter market. I believe that this is the decision of the original putter designer. I support this with Scotty Cameron and will support this for David Mills, Bobby Grace, Tom Slighter and anyone else.

 

 

I can see your point, but I don't see it as trademark infringement when a person has their putter refinished and someone puts the original stampings on the putter. Now, if that person bought a putter from someone other than Scotty Cameron and they put the seven-point crown on it and it isn't a true Scotty Cameron then that would definitely be trademark infringement.

 

The thing that could help this would be if, for example, Scotty Cameron would offer more options in the custom shop for black oxide and other options that most people go elsewhere for since they do not offer this and other services. Once you buy the putter you own it and you can do what you want to it including having someone else refinish it and such especially when you can't get the custom shop to do it.

[mcbush25]

Well, I completely agree with the fact that someone should not resale a putter as a "tour issue" when it was merely altered by someone to look as if it is "tour issued".

[golfasaurus]

Dear RobotDoctor,

 

I am sure Scotty appreciates your concerns.

 

Further to that, I am sure Scotty himself regrets issuing headcovers commemorating the major championships without their approval and likewise for his infringement in using the La Costa name. And of course the putting cube in which he infringed Zen Oracle's patents. And we are all glad he puts his talent into designing putters such as the detour versus the Newport Pings.

 

Stan

[wlong272]

Dear RobotDoctor,

 

I am sure Scotty appreciates your concerns.

 

Further to that, I am sure Scotty himself regrets issuing headcovers commemorating the major championships without their approval and likewise for his infringement in using the La Costa name. And of course the putting cube in which he infringed Zen Oracle's patents. And we are all glad he puts his talent into designing putters such as the detour versus the Newport Pings.

 

Stan

 

 

I agree

[golfasaurus]

Would like to add that despite some imperfections on Scotty's part and some blunders in the past, I still think he is a great putter maker, and an even greater marketing guy. Just want to clear the air that my post was not intended to put him down in anyway. More so that he is human.

[RobotDoctor]

RobotDoctor,

Let me ask this question to clear up what your point is. I'll prevous it by saying I own one Scotty putter and love it. Everything else I own is off the shelf stuff.

Are you saying I shouldn't buy a Slighter putter because he did this?

Whether it was right or wrong, whether he knowingly infringed on someone's trademark or not, should I not buy the guy's putter because he was trying to make a customer happy?

It obviously looks like he made a mistake, but is your point that no one should buy a putter from the guy?

 

 

Absolutely not, I have no problem with anyone buying a Slighter putter. I have a problem with someone asking Tom Slighter to modify a Cameron with Circle T, 7 Point Crowns or any other Cameron stamps and Tom agreeing to do this. This is where my problem is.

 

Tom Slighter designs appear to be very nice and his Space Needle stamp is very nice. If a person chooses to buy a Slighter design then that is great. I support that.

[easyyy]

PLEASE keep the peace here. We are passionate about this stuf. Dont let you feelings heat up to much here. Keep it clean. This is one of those hot button issues that can get ugly if we arnt carefull.

 

No attacks personnally here.

[ronn]

This been discussed over and over again, and always the end result are people getting riled up about it. If you like slighter putters go talk about it to the Slighter tread, and if you like SC, go talk about it to the cameron tread, and if you like TP mills..well you got the idea. This thing always start when someone says something negative about other putter maker on another putter maker tread. JAT

[rustyputterguy]

 

Absolutely not, I have no problem with anyone buying a Slighter putter. I have a problem with someone asking Tom Slighter to modify a Cameron with Circle T, 7 Point Crowns or any other Cameron stamps and Tom agreeing to do this. This is where my problem is.

 

Tom Slighter designs appear to be very nice and his Space Needle stamp is very nice. If a person chooses to buy a Slighter design then that is great. I support that.

 

I'm not doing this to argue with you, but just want to see your point.

What does "My aim is to identify designers/aftermarket finish companies that practice stamping putters from other designers with the original designers stamps so that people have notification who to avoid in the future." mean then? Avoid them in what way?

 

I agree copyright/trademark/patent infringement is bad, but is your point of this thread just to let people know this has happened?

[Gxgolfer]

I had heard that Mills trademarked the circle sight dot. This appeared in Scotty's Circa line. Is that a trademark infringement or did it expire? I don't think Mills has the money to go into a length legal battle over it. Though the Zen Oracle was settled and the Cube is no longer sold.

 

I do agree that the problem of aftermarket stampings get very troublesome after it leaves the original requesters hands. There is no way to figure intent past the first person from the manufacturer perspective.

[RobotDoctor]

 

Absolutely not, I have no problem with anyone buying a Slighter putter. I have a problem with someone asking Tom Slighter to modify a Cameron with Circle T, 7 Point Crowns or any other Cameron stamps and Tom agreeing to do this. This is where my problem is.

 

Tom Slighter designs appear to be very nice and his Space Needle stamp is very nice. If a person chooses to buy a Slighter design then that is great. I support that.

 

I'm not doing this to argue with you, but just want to see your point.

What does "My aim is to identify designers/aftermarket finish companies that practice stamping putters from other designers with the original designers stamps so that people have notification who to avoid in the future." mean then? Avoid them in what way?

 

I agree copyright/trademark/patent infringement is bad, but is your point of this thread just to let people know this has happened?

 

What I mean by my aim is so that I, RobotDoctor, will know who NOT to ever deal with, in any way-shape-form, because those companies are knowingly violating registered trademark they do not own. I know people have done so unknowingly and yes, that is human. However, when people continue to do this practice knowingly but chose to do so for what ever reason, then this is unethical. I recently sent two putters to BOS for refinish. One was a Scotty Cameron Circa #1 and the other was a Cleveland Designed by Ben Crenshaw. I had both done in Patina Oil (Oil Can - which is trademarked by Acushnet and Scotty Cameron). Why, I prefer the finish and the Studio, who I contacted first, does not do this finish for the Circa. I had no stampings done so I see no problem here.

[RobotDoctor]

I had heard that Mills trademarked the circle sight dot. This appeared in Scotty's Circa line. Is that a trademark infringement or did it expire? I don't think Mills has the money to go into a length legal battle over it. Though the Zen Oracle was settled and the Cube is no longer sold.

 

I do agree that the problem of aftermarket stampings get very troublesome after it leaves the original requesters hands. There is no way to figure intent past the first person from the manufacturer perspective.

 

Trademarks are not permanent. If TP Mills has trademarked the circle site dot, is it still active. If so then I have a problem with the Circa and with Scotty Cameron. I will look into this when I have time. If this is a violation of registered trademark, I will email the Studio asking why. I personally do not accept any violation of trademark.

[Joeypole]

Dear RobotDoctor,

 

I am sure Scotty appreciates your concerns.

 

Further to that, I am sure Scotty himself regrets issuing headcovers commemorating the major championships without their approval and likewise for his infringement in using the La Costa name. And of course the putting cube in which he infringed Zen Oracle's patents. And we are all glad he puts his talent into designing putters such as the detour versus the Newport Pings.

 

Stan

 

 

 

Stan,

Not to bash anyone who makes their own putters, but this opinion about Newport Pings is a little far fetched don't you think???? Scotty Cameron uses a design which Mr. Slighter uses as well. Its just pretty funny that I found Mr. Slighter's website and like a lot of his designs. But the problem is that I know why I like his designs. Its because they look awfully similar to those rarer Scotty Cameron's that I cannot afford. I'm not implying that Mr. Slighter copies Scotty's designs, because if you go back in time there are some putter designs that have stood the test of time, and if you go to any golf store today, you are going to see a lot of putters that look very similar. Does this mean someone copied someone else? Honda makes a four door sedan, and so does Volkswagon. Does this mean that VW copied Honda's idea for the 4 door???

 

Patent infringements happen, but when someone purposely uses copyright infringement to make a profit then thats a problem.

 

Once again, Mr. Slighter does make some great products, but the comment about Newport Pings is a little off base. If you are implying that Scotty copied Ping (as it sounds to me) then did Mr. Slighter copy Ping and Scotty, as well as Teardrop, Odyssey, and every other manufacturer who has put out a similar putter.

 

Just my .02

 

Joe

[arkstorm]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

There seems to be a few misunderstandings flying around in this thread.

 

First of all, a trademeark is different than a patent and a trademark violation is different than a patent violation. E.g. the 7 crown may be a SC trademark. The circle sight dot is more likely a patent. And while patents generally may run out, trademarks generally do not.

 

That being said, in terms of trademark abuse, it is important to draw a clear distinction between someone stamping a non-tour SC putter with tour stampings to increase its value (which is fraud) and someone doing it for their own personal aestethic reasons. The former example is unquestionably wrong as it amount to trading on someone else's name and good will as well as defrauding the buyer. However, if I want to put a circle T for example on my SC putter because I like the way it looks, not because I want to re sell it for a higher price, that is not a trademark infringement. Its like putting a decall on a skateboard. The problem arises when people do this with intent to defraud, as in the article link from San Diego.

 

Now, patent infringement is a whole other matter. But the distinction is important because different standards of laws apply.

[reebus]

I see some merit in both sides of this argument.

 

There are some folks out there that will get after-market stamps on a

Cameron and then re-sell it as something it's not. That is wrong. No way around it.

 

But, I should be able to, and will do, whatever I want to with my own

personal property. If I want to have crowns on my putter, a dot, or

anything else I see on a Cameron that I like, I'll have it done. (Of course

I wouldn't turn around and sell it as something it's not). Now, is it wrong

for someone to provide this service to me? I don't think so.

 

As far as the Collector market, I believe that you are "rolling the dice"

when you buy something off of E-Bay. If it sounds too good to be true,

it more than likely is....... I would only buy a "Collector" Cameron with a

certificate, or from someone who is consideres a reputable re-seller.....

[Joeypole]

Now the problem arises that I want a Circle T on my Gamer putter and I get it. Now 5 years down the road my kid decides I'm not playing it anymore and puts it on Ebay without me knowing. He tries to sell it as a 'Tour Use Only' putter. Now my gamer tries to be sold as a tour putter.

 

Then some poor newbie says look a Tour Cameron for $900. Who is to blame for that.

 

I'm not trying to argue patents and copyrights, I'm trying to argue ethics and fraud.

[RobotDoctor]

Interestingly, the CT is not a registered trademark. There are ranches that have this as their logo, again not registered as a trademark. I agree with arkstorm that profiteering as a result of a stamp that is trademarked or used to mislead is fraud.

 

Again, I support the protection of any designer and their stamps. I support this for Scotty Cameron as well as Tom Slighter.

[choeppner]

Talk about opening pandora's box. LOL

 

-CHRIS-

[Joeypole]

Sorry to go off topic, but Chris I really like that bag.

[SwingMan]

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

I haven't seen him place it on a non-Scotty putter.

 

How about complaining how Scotty and others have copied Karsten and TP Mills? - in something that really counts - putter design

 

Maybe Scotty should send some money to the Estate of TP Mills and to Karsten's estate.

 

Speaking of stampings, didn't Scotty copy TP Mills' oval sight dot??

 

hmmmmmm.....

 

If some wants to buy an authentic Scotty on ebay, I suggest he ask for a COA before he bids - if no COA, don't bid.

 

Simple. If everyone did that, we wouldn't have the copy problem.

 

But there's always the clown that is trying to get too good of a deal -- and then moans when he's been taken.

 

Caveat Emptor.

[ronn]

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

LoL! That is the problem! He shouldn't put those stamp on a Scotty Cameron putter. :(

[Bushy]

Simple - know your source and you wont get stung ebay is a crazy place to blow your cash. Slighter makes and refurbs great putters and caters to individual customer requirements. After that ..........

[metroplanner]

As much as I hate to fuel any anti-Scotty or Slighter arguments, I thought this was interesting...seems to be the precursor to the Detour technology ( and yes, I know it does not LOOK like a Detour!):

 

image here:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...7-20060718.html

and full text here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/7077757

 

This one I am going to start investing in right away! A putter with a retractable pitchmark tool! NOT!!!

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...9-20051115.html

and full text here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/6964619

 

Futura! Assigned to Cameron:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...0-20060530.html

and:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...9-20060228.html

and full text here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/7052410

 

Craze-E

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...0-20051101.html

and full text here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/6960140

 

Doc:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/wee...2-20060523.html

and full text here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=PN/D521582

 

You can find millions of these things.

[golfebj]

The article had to do with a guy who was a Cameron that went solo and still tried to sell as an official Cameron guy and keep all the profits.

 

I think it's unfair that you throw slighter in to mix and the title of your thread as compared to the content of it is wrong.

[RobotDoctor]

Sorry to go off topic, but Chris I really like that bag.

 

 

What the heck *^@^@**^%*@% !!!! Hijacking my thread. The nerve.

 

:( :)

[RobotDoctor]

Then complain to Tom Slighter for copying Scotty Cameron.

 

Sorry but that is not the point of this thread. Is it really that confusing? I am not talking about putter design, I am talking about putter stampings. These are two different items AFAICS.

 

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

I haven't seen him place it on a non-Scotty putter.

 

How about complaining how Scotty and others have copied Karsten and TP Mills? - in something that really counts - putter design

 

Maybe Scotty should send some money to the Estate of TP Mills and to Karsten's estate.

 

Speaking of stampings, didn't Scotty copy TP Mills' oval sight dot??

 

hmmmmmm.....

 

If some wants to buy an authentic Scotty on ebay, I suggest he ask for a COA before he bids - if no COA, don't bid.

 

Simple. If everyone did that, we wouldn't have the copy problem.

 

But there's always the clown that is trying to get too good of a deal -- and then moans when he's been taken.

 

Caveat Emptor.