Putter designers that violate Trademark stampings of other designers

[RobotDoctor]

Tom Slighter is in the mix, or maybe was, because he used stamps on a Cameron that are unique to Scotty Cameron. Tom Slighter did the work I posted on my initial post and this is a trademark violation. He is even posting the pictures on his website. This is where I got the picture. Did he have Scotty Cameron's permission to use the 7 Crown Stamp in a Cameron OTR putter? I doubt he did and this is the problem. Slighter may not be doing this any longer or he still might be. If he is not then that is a good thing. If he is still stamping putters with stamps that are not his trademark then shame.

 

People can argue that if it is their own putter, what is the harm? The harm is when the putter changes hands and the next owner markets the putter as authentic Cameron work and raises the value of it. This is called fraud and this is illegal. That is the point. Of course I would never buy a "tour" putter without a COA but how many people know about COAs. I did not until a couple of months ago. Also, I am not in the market for a "tour" putter but I am concerned about illegitimate aftermarket stamps.

 

The article had to do with a guy who was a Cameron that went solo and still tried to sell as an official Cameron guy and keep all the profits.

 

I think it's unfair that you throw slighter in to mix and the title of your thread as compared to the content of it is wrong.

[Gxgolfer]

Yes,

 

Let's please keep this on topic. Its about stampings on a putter. Not design.

[TonioK]

WOW! You guys must all be retired to spend this much time on such a subject. You should be golfing instead of debating this issue. "Get a life" comes to mind.

[Gxgolfer]

WOW! You guys must all be retired to spend this much time on such a subject. You should be golfing instead of debating this issue. "Get a life" comes to mind.

 

This is a legitmate topic as many people have been defrauded and their has been much money lost. Let me add that I know puttermakers experiment from time to time with uniques and one offs. Some will put a special stamp where no one sees it or where only they know about it.

 

The Black Oxide Scandal is very different and shouldn't be included in this.

[SwingMan]

Then complain to Tom Slighter for copying Scotty Cameron.

 

Sorry but that is not the point of this thread. Is it really that confusing? I am not talking about putter design, I am talking about putter stampings. These are two different items AFAICS.

 

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

I haven't seen him place it on a non-Scotty putter.

 

How about complaining how Scotty and others have copied Karsten and TP Mills? - in something that really counts - putter design

 

Maybe Scotty should send some money to the Estate of TP Mills and to Karsten's estate.

 

Speaking of stampings, didn't Scotty copy TP Mills' oval sight dot??

 

hmmmmmm.....

 

If some wants to buy an authentic Scotty on ebay, I suggest he ask for a COA before he bids - if no COA, don't bid.

 

Simple. If everyone did that, we wouldn't have the copy problem.

 

But there's always the clown that is trying to get too good of a deal -- and then moans when he's been taken.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

 

I KNOW the thread topic but couldn't resist the dig - anyway, there is always the COPY of the STAMPING of the TP Mills sight dot by Cameron.

 

It's not as if Mr. Cameron doesn't venture into violating other's trademarks or patents, either. See the Cameron Cube.

 

If people are buying these putters for collection purposes or purchasing them for big money, then they ought to know about COAs or research the collection. Otherwise, they are fools - and a sucker is born every minute.

 

As I said, Caveat Emptor. (Let the Buyer Beware)

[RobotDoctor]

<I read your post incorrectly and am editting out my comment. I am so defensive. :) ) I am talking about stamps but somehow I think you knew that. I am glad to keep the topic pertaining to stamps and not design as I have said here.

 

I personally like Tom Slighter designs but am not thrilled that he, and other services, would add stamps on another brand of putter that is not theirs and not their stamp. I would be glad to discuss this issue and this issue only and not specific to any one aftermarket service.

 

Good good? :(

 

Then complain to Tom Slighter for copying Scotty Cameron.

 

Sorry but that is not the point of this thread. Is it really that confusing? I am not talking about putter design, I am talking about putter stampings. These are two different items AFAICS.

 

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

I haven't seen him place it on a non-Scotty putter.

 

How about complaining how Scotty and others have copied Karsten and TP Mills? - in something that really counts - putter design

 

Maybe Scotty should send some money to the Estate of TP Mills and to Karsten's estate.

 

Speaking of stampings, didn't Scotty copy TP Mills' oval sight dot??

 

hmmmmmm.....

 

If some wants to buy an authentic Scotty on ebay, I suggest he ask for a COA before he bids - if no COA, don't bid.

 

Simple. If everyone did that, we wouldn't have the copy problem.

 

But there's always the clown that is trying to get too good of a deal -- and then moans when he's been taken.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

 

I KNOW the thread topic but couldn't resist the dig - anyway, there is always the COPY of the STAMPING of the TP Mills sight dot by Cameron.

 

It's not as if Mr. Cameron doesn't venture into violating other's trademarks or patents, either. See the Cameron Cube.

 

If people are buying these putters for collection purposes or purchasing them for big money, then they ought to know about COAs or research the collection. Otherwise, they are fools - and a sucker is born every minute.

 

As I said, Caveat Emptor. (Let the Buyer Beware)

[rustyputterguy]

Where do you draw the line and where do you place the blame?

I have no idea how big or profitable a shop like Slighter's is, but is he supposed to turn down work at the possibility that someone is trying to scam an unsuspecting Cameron collector?

I would think he's trying to build a clientelle that will move from mostly customers asking him for refinishing work to one that mostly buys his putters, which he can only do by providing great customer service and getting the postive word of mouth.

There's no way he can screen customers for their intent.

 

So, short of the fraud issues, is it illegal for him to put a Cameron stamping on the putter, even if it's purely for the pleasure of the putter's owner???

[Gxgolfer]

The COA is not fool proof but, it does help. I'm sure some unscrupulous people may buy special Tour or collectors pieces, COA it and pawn off a replica. How can someone tell those?

 

I know Geo putters, and I think Colbert, do mark their refinishes with an identifier stamp. It is a slippery slope.

 

This is no different than walking down the street of an Asian market and buying Burberry or LV bag.

 

I believe Tom S. has said he won't do any trademark or copyrighted stampings. He may have done so mistakenly in the past but, I don't think that is his current practice. If it was, I'm sure Acushnet has enough lawyers to handle it...

[SwingMan]

No issue with me.

 

To tell the truth, when I first saw the Scotty-type markings on Slighter putters two years ago, I thought it was in poor taste to do so, especially if it violated a right that Scotty owned.

 

Tom said it was something that people wanted on their Slighters. I didn't ask about legal issues at that time. As to the refinishings, ya know, I doubt if Tom knows that he may be violating a trademark. You ought to email him. I bet he would curtail the usage without Cameron's permission. Maybe he could put a small Sligther logo stamping on the sole of the Scottys to signify that it's a refurbish.

 

 

<I read your post incorrectly and am editting out my comment. I am so defensive. :) ) I am talking about stamps but somehow I think you knew that. I am glad to keep the topic pertaining to stamps and not design as I have said here.

 

I personally like Tom Slighter designs but am not thrilled that he, and other services, would add stamps on another brand of putter that is not theirs and not their stamp. I would be glad to discuss this issue and this issue only and not specific to any one aftermarket service.

 

Good good? :(

 

Then complain to Tom Slighter for copying Scotty Cameron.

 

Sorry but that is not the point of this thread. Is it really that confusing? I am not talking about putter design, I am talking about putter stampings. These are two different items AFAICS.

 

All I can say is that at least Slighter put the crown on a Scotty Cameron.

 

I haven't seen him place it on a non-Scotty putter.

 

How about complaining how Scotty and others have copied Karsten and TP Mills? - in something that really counts - putter design

 

Maybe Scotty should send some money to the Estate of TP Mills and to Karsten's estate.

 

Speaking of stampings, didn't Scotty copy TP Mills' oval sight dot??

 

hmmmmmm.....

 

If some wants to buy an authentic Scotty on ebay, I suggest he ask for a COA before he bids - if no COA, don't bid.

 

Simple. If everyone did that, we wouldn't have the copy problem.

 

But there's always the clown that is trying to get too good of a deal -- and then moans when he's been taken.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

 

I KNOW the thread topic but couldn't resist the dig - anyway, there is always the COPY of the STAMPING of the TP Mills sight dot by Cameron.

 

It's not as if Mr. Cameron doesn't venture into violating other's trademarks or patents, either. See the Cameron Cube.

 

If people are buying these putters for collection purposes or purchasing them for big money, then they ought to know about COAs or research the collection. Otherwise, they are fools - and a sucker is born every minute.

 

As I said, Caveat Emptor. (Let the Buyer Beware)

[RobotDoctor]

The COA is not fool proof but, it does help. I'm sure some unscrupulous people may buy special Tour or collectors pieces, COA it and pawn off a replica. How can someone tell those?

 

I know Geo putters, and I think Colbert, do mark their refinishes with an identifier stamp. It is a slippery slope.

 

This is no different than walking down the street of an Asian market and buying Burberry or LV bag.

 

I believe Tom S. has said he won't do any trademark or copyrighted stampings. He may have done so mistakenly in the past but, I don't think that is his current practice. If it was, I'm Acushnet has enough lawyers to handle it...

 

I agree with the COA point. That is a scary issue.

 

Asian markets are also scary as many aftermarket sources lack integrity.

 

If Tom Slighter does not do this any more then that is a wonderful thing.

 

Best regards.

[RobotDoctor]

.... Maybe he could put a small Sligther logo stamping on the sole of the Scottys to signify that it's a refurbish.

 

 

Hmmm, small Slighter Space Needle on my Cameron OTR? Interesting, very interesting. :(

[SwingMan]

.... Maybe he could put a small Sligther logo stamping on the sole of the Scottys to signify that it's a refurbish.

 

 

Hmmm, small Slighter Space Needle on my Cameron OTR? Interesting, very interesting. :(

 

Thought that would be humorous - it could be something innocuous like a "T.S." on the sole. But I think the best solution is to not violate any trademark or obtain Scotty's permission. After all, Slighter refurbishes Camerons that Scotty's shop won't touch - maybe Tom can make a deal with Cameron. Tom's work is tremendous on refurbs.

[Gxgolfer]

I think Hell may freeze over first. Stamp underneath the hosel or in back of the cavity.

 

.... Maybe he could put a small Sligther logo stamping on the sole of the Scottys to signify that it's a refurbish.

 

 

Hmmm, small Slighter Space Needle on my Cameron OTR? Interesting, very interesting. :(

 

Thought that would be humorous - it could be something innocuous like a "T.S." on the sole. But I think the best solution is to not violate any trademark or obtain Scotty's permission. After all, Slighter refurbishes Camerons that Scotty's shop won't touch - maybe Tom can make a deal with Cameron. Tom's work is tremendous on refurbs.

[hoganapex]

why bring up a 3 yr old story that has been discussed a thousand times. just look at the current circa 62 line if you want to see copy infringment.

[Gxgolfer]

why bring up a 3 yr old story that has been discussed a thousand times. just look at the current circa 62 line if you want to see copy infringment.

 

The question arised because of pictures shown on TS's site and whether or not he still does them. Robotdoctor's original question was all inclusive and TS was just an example. I know there was an ebayer that would routinely make stock camerons look like Tour putters.

[RobotDoctor]

why bring up a 3 yr old story that has been discussed a thousand times. just look at the current circa 62 line if you want to see copy infringment.

 

Please show us all how Scotty Cameron is violating copyright laws or even trademark rights by using the circle site dot. Are you sure that TP Mills has that design copyrighted or trademarked? I am eagerly awaiting the factual link to this and since you brought it up, please provide the proof. When I get it I will be more than happy to provide this to the Cameron Studio and to Acushnet. Thanks.

[mhighman]

Ok.. here we go!

 

As some may know... I work for Tom Slighter.

 

He has told me that he did not know of any trademarks or patents of the 7 point crown when he did the putter. It was done in his earlier stages of the business. Possibly before the trademark was filed.

 

Robotdoctor... I appreciate you starting the thread on your own.. much better... This is a topic worth discussing and I am glad everyone is behaving for the most part.

 

I don't really want to get into to much but if you get into patents and trademarks... I will say two things....

 

Tiffany Blue , &CO

 

anyways...

 

Tom DOES NOT do these types of stamps anymore... especially a 7 point crown. This is the one that is always brought up when this is spoken about... this is one of his earliest refinishes!

 

I do have a problem with scotty using the oval site dot... It is out of respect of TP Mills that putter makers do not use this... patent or no patent.

 

Someone earlier had said something with TS and a CT(circle T) being used int he same sentence... TOM has NEVER done a CT nor will he ever! Tom has always said great things about Scotty to me and respects him as a putter maker and as a Marketing genius. That is what Scotty has over all the other putter producers...

 

I want to say that I have total respect for all putter makers... ones that are in the biz making lots of money and the ones that are on these forums using dremels or little vertical mills or what not!

 

Some good things have been said in the forum and some not so good things... I hope after this thread runs its course that we can drop all of this stuff and just LIKE I ALWAYS SAY... enjoy their putters. Enjoy what they can do to a putter that has been abused... How they can take a great design(sorry not on topic I guess, but I am being dramatic :( ) and improve upon it...

 

 

again, Robotdoctor... thank you for keeping this as your own thread and not taking from another!

 

If anyone has any questions... [email protected]!

 

Thanks guys and girls.

 

 

M.

[axeman310]

If trademarked stamps is an issue, why is there not a big fuss about putting stamps on a putter that belong to a non-putter company? Isn't putting a stamping like a Batman logo that is copywrited to its comic company on a putter the same copwrite violation?

[xxio]

I doubt if TP Mills copyrighted his oval dot - that's not something many small putter designers thought about 40 years - Although, I do know other putter makers who won't use the oval sight dot out of respect for TP Mills. Scotty, evidently has no respect. He doesn't mind trampeling over other people to ho' another buck. He is a ho, a successful ho. But a man is who he is by his actions.

 

Ho.

 

 

Finally back online and can add my two cents.

 

Maybe Scotty is showing dispespect by doing the oval circle, or maybe it is his way of paying homage?

 

However the topic here is trademark infringement. If it can be shown that Mills trademarked the oval, then I will side with Mills on that and get on Cameron's case as well.

 

If Mills didn't trademark it then, Tom Slighters reply that he will put anything on a putter as long as it doesn't infringe on copyright/patent holds as well for Cameron. Personally for me it is not enough. These guys have a ethical obligation as well to the buying public, but that is beyond the factual things under consideration in this thread.

 

That is why it is important to know when Slighter put that crown on that putter, if after the granting of the application he did violate something.

 

When you diss Cameron for the putting the Oval on a "respect" aspect, I hope you apply the same standard to any other aftermarket stamper for the the stampings they have put on any Cameron putter. I hope to see that you are after all these other guys who put any sort of stamping associated with anyone else irregardless of whose putter it was put on.

 

I would like to add a important aspect that you may have overlooked. Cameron put the oval dot on his own creation.

 

The aftermarket guys are putting the other putters stampings on a putter THAT IS NOT THEIR OWN CREATION. I have repeatedly said these guys can put any stampings on their own putters. They will never cause confusing. I will never confuse a SC Crown being on a Byron putter as anything else but a Byron putter.

[Lip Out]

Ok.. here we go!

 

As some may know... I work for Tom Slighter.

 

He has told me that he did not know of any trademarks or patents of the 7 point crown when he did the putter. It was done in his earlier stages of the business. Possibly before the trademark was filed.

 

Robotdoctor... I appreciate you starting the thread on your own.. much better... This is a topic worth discussing and I am glad everyone is behaving for the most part.

 

I don't really want to get into to much but if you get into patents and trademarks... I will say two things....

 

Tiffany Blue , &CO

 

anyways...

 

Tom DOES NOT do these types of stamps anymore... especially a 7 point crown. This is the one that is always brought up when this is spoken about... this is one of his earliest refinishes!

 

I do have a problem with scotty using the oval site dot... It is out of respect of TP Mills that putter makers do not use this... patent or no patent.

 

Someone earlier had said something with TS and a CT(circle T) being used int he same sentence... TOM has NEVER done a CT nor will he ever! Tom has always said great things about Scotty to me and respects him as a putter maker and as a Marketing genius. That is what Scotty has over all the other putter producers...

 

I want to say that I have total respect for all putter makers... ones that are in the biz making lots of money and the ones that are on these forums using dremels or little vertical mills or what not!

 

Some good things have been said in the forum and some not so good things... I hope after this thread runs its course that we can drop all of this stuff and just LIKE I ALWAYS SAY... enjoy their putters. Enjoy what they can do to a putter that has been abused... How they can take a great design(sorry not on topic I guess, but I am being dramatic :( ) and improve upon it...

 

 

again, Robotdoctor... thank you for keeping this as your own thread and not taking from another!

 

If anyone has any questions... [email protected]!

 

Thanks guys and girls.

 

 

M.

 

I do believe he uses the Tiffany and Co. with permission. There was a putter earlier released with Tiffany silver in it.

[Gxgolfer]

Isn't Tiffany now called easter blue or something? I know it was changed.

[RobotDoctor]

Mitch,

 

It is nice to hear that Tom is not using stampings from Scotty, and I presume other manufactures. That is great. It would be nice to remove the picture of the refinished/stamped putter from his website.

 

I do like Tom's designs. They appear to be finely crafted and I am sure play that way. Kudos to Tom and staff.

 

I have said several times I have no problem with Tom Slighter designs. It is evident that Tom has used existing designs for many of his models but added his touch to them. Again, KUDOS!!! Personally, I love the smooth, rounded flow of an 8802 style putter but his Kent is a little to squared in appearance for me.

 

My thread is certainly not to single out Tom Slighter. I pointed out his use of the 7 Point Crown which was registered as a Trademark in 2002. He has stopped using it so it is a dead issue as far as I am concerned. I am very pleased that he is not using a Circle T stamp.

 

My thread was to point out actual trademark or patent violations from aftermarket sources so I, and others that hold the same conviction, know who to avoid. I mentioned BOS but that issue was settled and they do not offer or do stampings what so ever.

 

People are free to solicit any aftermarket service they wish, that is freedom. I would exhibit the same fervor if an aftermarket source were stamping Tom Slighter putters with Tom's custom stamps without his permission.

 

Thanks for the insight regarding Tom Slighter.

 

Best regards,

 

RD

[xxio]

M,

 

All along our jousts I never knew you worked for Tom. Now I understand your passion. Your man does do great putters. You can tell his skill has evolved tremendously. In the beginning I always thought his work was a bit angular/linear. His creations starting with the Redmond era have shown that he can do the "soft" look as well.

 

I would pose this question then. If you think that Cameron is disrepecting with the Oval, what is your attitude with Slighter's use of the crown, CircleT, etc? Is that a form of respect?

 

Again I will repeat I am not a SC fan. In fact I just registered on the CameronCollector site today because I was pointed that way to check on the dates of the TESS screenshot.

 

Maybe I will start another thread about the Oval circle and Cameron, just so we can get facts from the Mills fans with regards to origins, trademarks, etc of the Oval. Clarity in that symbol will be appreciated as well, although I have yet to know of Scotty putting the oval aftermarket on a Mills putter.

 

 

Remember this topic is trademark infringement. My topic on this was shut down yesterday, because it was headed the wrong way.

[Gxgolfer]

Toby,

 

You can use this thread to question the oval mark on the Circa. The TS crown was an example and should not be the total focus of this thread.

 

M,

 

All along our jousts I never knew you worked for Tom. Now I understand your passion. Your man does do great putters. You can tell his skill has evolved tremendously. In the beginning I always thought his work was a bit angular/linear. His creations starting with the Redmond era have shown that he can do the "soft" look as well.

 

I would pose this question then. If you think that Cameron is disrepecting with the Oval, what is your attitude with Slighter's use of the crown, CircleT, etc? Is that a form of respect?

 

Again I will repeat I am not a SC fan. In fact I just registered on the CameronCollector site today because I was pointed that way to check on the dates of the TESS screenshot.

 

Maybe I will start another thread about the Oval circle and Cameron, just so we can get facts from the Mills fans with regards to origins, trademarks, etc of the Oval. Clarity in that symbol will be appreciated as well, although I have yet to know of Scotty putting the oval aftermarket on a Mills putter.

 

 

Remember this topic is trademark infringement. My topic on this was shut down yesterday, because it was headed the wrong way.

[mhighman]

XXIO,

 

I said earlier.. Tom will never do a CT. NEVER EVER. You guys point me to where I can publish the email to an ebayer who does do them though...

 

Please try not to put that under Tom's name... He will never touch the CT.

 

I must have gotten lost on the mills issue... I meant to just reiterate (sp?) the fact that someone posted earlier about respect...

 

I forgot about that tiffany metal putter... that thing was SO NICE!!!! good to hear about the tiffany blue.. (that dang blue, always means more money for us men to spend) LOL.

 

Yes I think its somewhat of a repsect thing, but in the same matter... Scotty did his circa putters to bring something form the past right? ( I think)

 

I love the circa line and I actually have never liked the oval site dot... too much for me on top. :(

 

All in all... I am glad that you and RD have done this in the right fashion and this is getting settled... This is one of the only threads that start like this... and go in somewhat of a good direction... Great job on the mods and the owners of golfwrx! As well as its memebers... not many forums could have kept this going...

 

Thanks for this threads.... and again.... LETS ENJOY their putters! and again thank you to the members and admin of the forum who have kept this a decent thread!

 

any questions... i will try my best to answer you... just email me!

 

M.

[RobotDoctor]

Thanks Mitch for your posts. I would hope that mature adults can resolve differences and misunderstanding in a mature and respectful manner.

 

Best regards.

 

********************

 

Thanks to all for posting.

 

However, this thread does not just include Tom Slighter and should not. This thread is for any aftermarket stamping that is, or appears to be, in violation of patent/trademark rights.

 

Scotty Cameron used the circle dot in his creations back in the early 90s, after TP Mills so this site dot is not new for Scotty. Is it wrong for Cameron to reintroduce this mark? I personally do not think so. Also, I would prefer another site dot or mark as this is not my favorite. I do like the design of my Circa #1 though.

 

I wish this discussion to be broadened and, if true and can be verified, the identities of any aftermarket source to be named for the greater good for all. I think stealing stampings to modify OTR putters, including welding and restamping, to appear as tour is despicable and should be stopped. I feel for the poor soul that purchases what they think is a tour putter and is duped because others do not think anything of this. This practice is fraud, pure and simple and should not be tolerated.

 

Thanks to all.

[xxio]

M,

 

A lot of good is coming out together with the bad. It is a relief for me to hear that Tom doesn't do certain stampings anymore. I wish he would've said/mentioned that in his email to me. It would've saved quite a few posts and a lot of time on everyone's part.

 

I also appreciate that among all the fans, you (who happen to be an employee at that!) have been one of the most logical/reasonable in presenting arguments.

 

This thread should be a wakeup call to the golf community, not just the putter makers. If you want stamps of a certain putter maker done on a putter that is his creation please use the services of that puttermaker/creator.

 

We can always say that we bought the putter, it is now my property, etc.

 

The guy was the one whos spent time to create/design that putter and conceptualizing those stampings. The value (financial or aesthetic) linked to those stampings are because of his ideas.

 

So what if he is already a millionaire 10xs over and charges an arm and a leg to put certain stamps. I think he probably did things to deserve that along the way.

 

Again, I'm a Bettinardi fan.

 

 

Now can the Mills guys chime in on the Oval Dot? Start slowly though. My brain is fried from all this reading right now.

[RobotDoctor]

Now can the Mills guys chime in on the Oval Dot? Start slowly though. My brain is fried from all this reading right now.

 

Yea, what Toby said. :(

[mhighman]

I too am FRIED... LOL... I have said what i can... now I am off to bed!

 

again thanks guys and have a great night!

 

It is truly an honor to have really gotten to know you two and your sides without all the bickering LOL...

 

Now...

 

any problems with this LOL LOL LOL

 

 

sorry... back to topic... I am off to sleep!

 

M.

[choeppner]

I think the one to ask about the Oval Sight Dot would be Jay. I don't know, and can't really find any definitive proof either way....Can't we just say that the oval sight dot looks sweet on both lines. LOL There......I have to extend a thanks to MPH for clearing things up about tom....Yall all know me as one of the biggest club ho's out there. LOL I'm impartial and buy everything...then sell it a week later. LOL I think that as long as there isn't a refinisher that will add the ct stamp, the scotty dog stamp or the srowns or any of that other stuff, we'd be doing fine. I stopped buying putters off of ebay just because some of the fakes out there are getting pretty dang close to the originals. That's when our friend Ilovefaketourcamerons comes around and putts the huge bid on it to get it out of the market :(:):):) There...non of this stuff I just said makes any sense so i'm going to bed. LOL Hav e agood one....even you Sam. LOL :):):cheesy:

 

-CHRIS-