Putter designers that violate Trademark stampings of other designers

[SwingMan]

As to the oval sight dot issue, IF Scotty is using the oval as a sign of respect - LOL - I've never seen, read, or heard where he mentions any attribute to TP Mills or any respect for TP.

 

But I have heard that one doesn't mention Cameron's name when talking with David Mills - there are extremely hard feelings from what I've heard - so as a sign of respect, please don't mention Cameron in front of or to David.

 

If Scotty had respected TP Mills and his work, he would have mentioned TP as the inspiration for his Studio Design or Circa line. But I've never seen it. Has anyone??

 

Respect? ROFLMAO.... From his actions, Cameron respects one thing - moolah and his ego.

[glenwayputters]

I have followed this debate most of Monday and have to say that this is one passionate group about putters!!!

 

I think infringement issues need to be left up to the attorneys and that putter makers should continue their craft.

 

I only know one of the craftsmen mentioned in this thread and I know his stance on some designs that are attributed to the Mills Co., but I can't speak for him. (He would not want me to and if he felt like he needed to, he would.) I am sure he is more concerned about the work he has to do. They all have legal teams that handle intellectual property.

 

As far as the sight oval is concerned, it was first used by T.P. and please don't get the sight oval confused with a "sight dot". T.P. nor David drill holes in the topline of a putter. T.P. felt that the oval stamped into the topline was a much better focus point, besides he didn't have a drill press back in the early days. If you see a Mills putter with a sight dot drilled into the topline, it has been altered by someone other than the Mills Co.

 

Jay

[xxio]

You lurker!

 

I kept seeing your name among the users reading the topic. I was wondering when you would chime in.

 

If you can bring up some facts through your connections it would be most appreciated. I would also understand if your connection would rather remain silent.

 

My key question for you would be would alterations be okay as long as they are on a putter diffrernt from the original. I guess the most to you would be the sight oval.

 

Cameron doing it on a Cameron vs Cameron doing/adding the sight oval on a Mills. What would be the differences for you (not your man)?

 

I've been bidding off and on on Spalding TP Mills 16(s) the past 6 months or so. Can you tell me the difference between the 16 and the 17?

 

Edit to add: If you aren't comfortable discussing your opinion in the open forum because of any misconceived reflections it may have on David please feel free to PM me. I just like picking apart thoughts of people related to the putter industry. I think I've picked M.P.H's brain enough.

[glenwayputters]

You lurker!

 

I kept seeing your name among the users reading the topic. I was wondering when you would chime in.

 

If you can bring up some facts through your connections it would be most appreciated. I would also understand if your connection would rather remain silent.

 

My key question for you would be would alterations be okay as long as they are on a putter diffrernt from the original. I guess the most to you would be the sight oval.

 

Cameron doing it on a Cameron vs Cameron doing/adding the sight oval on a Mills. What would be the differences for you (not your man)?

 

I've been bidding off and on on Spalding TP Mills 16(s) the past 6 months or so. Can you tell me the difference between the 16 and the 17?

 

Edit to add: If you aren't comfortable discussing your opinion in the open forum because of any misconceived reflections it may have on David please feel free to PM me. I just like picking apart thoughts of people related to the putter industry. I think I've picked M.P.H's brain enough.

 

 

 

I did lurk on this thread for several reasons, some I won't share. The main reason was actually to learn more about Tom Slighter and his creations. I know Stanley pretty well from the past and I think Stanley has a good eye for putters. As far as Robot Doctor, I don't know him, but can certainly value his passion, as well as his concern for authenticity.

 

I don't have a legal background and cannot comment on trademarks, copyrights or patents, so I recuse myself from that discussion. I, also, do not have any ownership of the Mills Co., so it would not be appropriate for me to comment on how this effects David. I can say that there are a few "icons" associated with Mills putters that do show up on other manufacturers putters. If this is out of "respect", then the Mills Co. is very fortunate to have such "respectful" friends in the industry. However, it would be nice to have some acknowledgement of where some of the markings originated. ( I don't think we will see that, either.)

 

The collector market is/has become a business that encompasses more and more everyday, whether they are collecting Camerons, Bettinardi's, Mills or vintage Wilson 8802s. This market cannot be overlooked, because of the "players" that it has within its grasp. I am a collector and have a lot of valuable pieces. I would not like to see fraudulent misrepresentations on OTR putters by any manufacturer or third party that is only out to make some very easy money on an unsuspecting buyer. That is wrong and always will be.

 

The sight oval question, I cannot address.

 

Jay

[xxio]

This thread ended up making me register on Cameron Collector. Now I have a bigger headache from reading the threads that are related to aftermarket stampings. I never knew this has been quite an issue for awhile now.

 

 

Thank you Jay. I respect your refusal to comment on the other issues. I wouldn't hesitate to comment that Mr. Cameron probably stepped on a lot of toes to get where he is.

 

You didn't answer my difference between the TPM Spalding 16 and 17 though :(

 

PS: Who is Stanley?

[RobotDoctor]

...

 

As far as Robot Doctor, I don't know him, but can certainly value his passion, as well as his concern for authenticity.

 

...

 

Jay

 

Jay,

 

Thanks for your kind words. Simply, I feel that the designer and manufacturer of a putter is the person/company that should be adding their stamps on their putters. In the advent of the collectors market, I find the practice of thirdparty services adding "tour" stamps on OTR putters just to make a profit despicable. I have not been taken advantage of as I am not in the collector business. I have owned many putters in my years, including a Spaulding TP Mills as my very first putter (I do not remember what model - old age I guess). I just believe in authenticity and the integrity of the business. I have a high respect for TP Mills and with David Mills. I believe they were/are a definite credit to the industry and have made a significant impact in putter design. I would be just as passionate as an advocate for their putters as anyone else's putters in terms of bogus stampings.

 

At the end of the day, I want to know I am using an authentic putter with stampings. Even though my putters are OTRs, they still have value to me.

 

Best regards,

 

Sam

[nickpoz]

If I correctly remember my visit to see David and TP the oval site mark was not a protected design as well as many other innovative things they did with their putters.

[glenwayputters]

...

 

As far as Robot Doctor, I don't know him, but can certainly value his passion, as well as his concern for authenticity.

 

...

 

Jay

 

Jay,

 

Thanks for your kind words. Simply, I feel that the designer and manufacturer of a putter is the person/company that should be adding their stamps on their putters. In the advent of the collectors market, I find the practice of thirdparty services adding "tour" stamps on OTR putters just to make a profit despicable. I have not been taken advantage of as I am not in the collector business. I have owned many putters in my years, including a Spaulding TP Mills as my very first putter (I do not remember what model - old age I guess). I just believe in authenticity and the integrity of the business. I have a high respect for TP Mills and with David Mills. I believe they were/are a definite credit to the industry and have made a significant impact in putter design. I would be just as passionate as an advocate for their putters as anyone else's putters in terms of bogus stampings.

 

At the end of the day, I want to know I am using an authentic putter with stampings. Even though my putters are OTRs, they still have value to me.

 

Best regards,

 

Sam

 

 

Sam

 

Thank You.

 

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Putters

[RobotDoctor]

This thread ended up making me register on Cameron Collector. Now I have a bigger headache from reading the threads that are related to aftermarket stampings. I never knew this has been quite an issue for awhile now.

 

 

 

We are not that bad at the Cameron Collector. I, too, am fairly new there having registered a little more than a month ago.

[RobotDoctor]

Jay,

 

By the way, the Professional One putter is really catching my eye. I love this putter and maybe ........

 

Well, one day I suppose. Timing is not right at this time but I do love the lines.

 

Best regards,

 

Sam

[glenwayputters]

Jay,

 

By the way, the Professional One putter is really catching my eye. I love this putter and maybe ........

 

Well, one day I suppose. Timing is not right at this time but I do love the lines.

 

Best regards,

 

Sam

 

 

let me know, I think you will like it.

 

jay

[choeppner]

This thread ended up making me register on Cameron Collector. Now I have a bigger headache from reading the threads that are related to aftermarket stampings. I never knew this has been quite an issue for awhile now.

 

 

 

We are not that bad at the Cameron Collector. I, too, am fairly new there having registered a little more than a month ago.

 

I've been a member there for awhile now. LOL Love both this site and TCC. There is a wealth of knowlage to be found on both sites :(:):):) My thanks to Richard and Mr. Doug for creating these sites so that we can all learn more about the hobby we love. If anyone wants to chat over on TCC, you'll see my screen name is the same.....and no, I don't have a life...LOL Been a member on TCC since may 17th, and I am the #4 poster with 2214 posts :):):cheesy::)

 

-CHRIS-

[xxio]

Didn't mean to offend the TCC guys. The stuff said over there was quite much to weed through. Lots of points I picked up that got me thinking. I haven't thought about an issue this much since law school. In the end we can all learn from the different views.

 

I see someone is watching and reading........

[RobotDoctor]

Didn't mean to offend the TCC guys. The stuff said over there was quite much to weed through. Lots of points I picked up that got me thinking. I haven't thought about an issue this much since law school. In the end we can all learn from the different views.

 

I see someone is watching and reading........

 

Heck, I was not offended except that you will not sell me your Napa. :) :(

[xxio]

Robotdoctor, don't worry when my kid's kids refuse to take up golf you'll be in line for the Napa. The bubblegum smell might be gone from the Iomic grip by then though. (My daughter is 7 years old so it might be a while)

 

Someone is still reading. Jay (glenwayputters) has graced us with a response. I respect if you want to remain silent, but would like to see your insight.

[great1putt]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

There seems to be a few misunderstandings flying around in this thread.

 

First of all, a trademeark is different than a patent and a trademark violation is different than a patent violation. E.g. the 7 crown may be a SC trademark. The circle sight dot is more likely a patent. And while patents generally may run out, trademarks generally do not.

 

That being said, in terms of trademark abuse, it is important to draw a clear distinction between someone stamping a non-tour SC putter with tour stampings to increase its value (which is fraud) and someone doing it for their own personal aestethic reasons. The former example is unquestionably wrong as it amount to trading on someone else's name and good will as well as defrauding the buyer. However, if I want to put a circle T for example on my SC putter because I like the way it looks, not because I want to re sell it for a higher price, that is not a trademark infringement. Its like putting a decall on a skateboard. The problem arises when people do this with intent to defraud, as in the article link from San Diego.

 

Now, patent infringement is a whole other matter. But the distinction is important because different standards of laws apply.

 

Are there any patent / trademark attorneys online with us??? :drinks: I agree with robotdoctor...if someone uses my trademark I feel they have violated trademark laws. If you stamp a circle T on your putter you have violated the trademark owner. Owning a tradmark allows you and only you to use...and apply...that trademark. If you stamp the circle T...yes even on a Scotty putter that did not have it...you violated the law. You do not own the trademark so by stamping your putter with the circle T is manufacturing the circle T logo or use of the circle T on a product that did not come from the manufacturer with that particular logo on it. Owning a trademark gives the owner and SOLELY the owner the right to apply and use that trademark. Anyone else applying that trademark, to anything, is breaking the law. It is infringement to stamp your putter with the Circle T. ONLY the owner of the trademark can apply the Circle T. Decals on a skateboard arent the same thing.

[xxio]

Wow still not dead.

 

But on the decal thing, a decal/sticker is a product sold/given away to be added on/stuck to other things. If SC sold/gave away CircleT decals, we buy that and stick that on a putter that would be perfectly all right.

[RobotDoctor]

I saw an aution of Ebay where someone was selling a Studio Stainless Newport and had drawn with a red sharpie a Circle T Logo. This was hillarious. :drinks: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

Ebay auction 160032321067

[great1putt]

My bad...I surely thought Scotty woulda tm'ed his circle T. I was corrected and did not see earlier in the thread where it was not tm'ed. If it is not TM'ed then happy stamping. I do think it is a hoot that some are even red Sharpieing circle T's...desperate for cash? :drinks: I hope no one falls for it.

[gburgs]

2 things I have a big problem with. Aftermarket stampings that are copying tour stamps on Cameron tour putters, and welded necks on the Cameron OTR putters. If Slighter doesn't do this anymore, absolutely no problem with him and his work. I think he makes quality looking putters on his own. These 2 things should not be done. People get these things done to fool people on ebay and make $$$ off of unsuspecting bidders.

[RobotDoctor]

Ok, not to rehash an issue but .....

 

It has been reported that Tom Slighter made a significant modification to a Cameron putter by the seller. I have emailed the seller to find out when this was done. If it was very recently then what was reported here in this thread regarding Tom not doing this work any longer is suspect. The work is very nice but should not be done to this putter by anyone else other than Scotty Cameron.

 

"Aftermarket or Tour" thread at TCC

[Jer-Jer]

So I put a 7 point crown on my putter and I have stitched in my headcover "for tour use only", not because I want to sell it for $$$, but because I like it, it's an infringement on his rights?

[risingsungolf]

Ok, not to rehash an issue but .....

 

It has been reported that Tom Slighter made a significant modification to a Cameron putter by the seller. I have emailed the seller to find out when this was done. If it was very recently then what was reported here in this thread regarding Tom not doing this work any longer is suspect. The work is very nice but should not be done to this putter by anyone else other than Scotty Cameron.

 

"Aftermarket or Tour" thread at TCC

 

 

And the problem is??? The seller say's it's not tour. He's not trying to fool any one about it.

 

Is this putter a circle t tour putter? No. Measures 34" from back of heel to the top.

This started out as a very nice 340 gram putter, 1 inch has been added to the neck making this putter not only a long neck,

but the additional 1 inch added 10 grams so that they head now weighs 350 grams.

 

Since when did a long neck / welded become a thing that only Cameron can do. Tad Moore was doing them ages ago. Oh...didn't Scotty work for him too. :)

 

TCC guys....pull your panties out of your butt. You're getting much to excited. That putter wouldn't fool anyone. It's four days....ZERO bids shold tell you that.

[RobotDoctor]

Nice, very nice, the comment about TCC members taking our panties out of our butts.

 

You don't get it, do you? If people see no problem with a seller using clever wording on a sale for the sole intent to mislead a buyer, probably ignorant about tour putters in the first place, then I hope you get ripped off buying a fake and lose your hard earned income. That is all I can say about the caviler attitude held by many here. Unbelievable.

 

Ok, not to rehash an issue but .....

 

It has been reported that Tom Slighter made a significant modification to a Cameron putter by the seller. I have emailed the seller to find out when this was done. If it was very recently then what was reported here in this thread regarding Tom not doing this work any longer is suspect. The work is very nice but should not be done to this putter by anyone else other than Scotty Cameron.

 

"Aftermarket or Tour" thread at TCC

 

 

And the problem is??? The seller say's it's not tour.

 

Is this putter a circle t tour putter? No. Measures 34" from back of heel to the top.

This started out as a very nice 340 gram putter, 1 inch has been added to the neck making this putter not only a long neck,

but the additional 1 inch added 10 grams so that they head now weighs 350 grams.

 

Since when did a long neck / welded become a thing that only Cameron can do. Tad Moore was doing them ages ago. Oh...didn't Scotty work for him too. :)

 

TCC guys....pull your panties out of your butt. You're getting much to excited. That putter wouldn't fool anyone. It's four days....ZERO bids shold tell you that.

[RobotDoctor]

If you have your items stitched with the 7 Point Crown and "For Tour Use Only" imprinted then you have committed trademark infringement. Nobody can stop you from doing it but wrong is still wrong. Is it wrong for someone to plagiarize a writer as long as nobody is the wiser? Many analogies can be made here but this would be wrong. It is about ethics and integrity and stealing another person's trademark for what ever reason is wrong.

 

So I put a 7 point crown on my putter and I have stitched in my headcover "for tour use only", not because I want to sell it for $$$, but because I like it, it's an infringement on his rights?

[risingsungolf]

Nice, very nice, the comment about TCC members taking our panties out of our butts.

 

You don't get it, do you? If people see no problem with a seller using clever wording on a sale for the sole intent to mislead a buyer, probably ignorant about tour putters in the first place, then I hope you get ripped off buying a fake and lose your hard earned income. That is all I can say about the caviler attitude held by many here. Unbelievable.

 

 

What is clever????

 

Is it tour? No. ........

 

10 letters......four words.

 

Is it tour?.........A question asking is it tour provided by the seller.....for all the Tour nuts....yes I am one too..so I can say that without getting anyone's panties in a bunch.

 

No.....and answer again provided by the seller.. Negative...no...nada..It's Not.

 

I see nothing clever and nothing to fool anyone.....I don't agree with you and you know what...I don't wish you any bad purchases. :)

[RobotDoctor]

I am not drawn to tour putters and do not own one. I appreciate those who want to collect them and wish the buyers well. However, if a person does not do the proper research and gets taken then who suffers? I do not purchase on Ebay for this one reason. I would love a 350g Napa and the only way to get one is from Tour stock. Yes, the seller states that this is not a Tour putter. He also states that the neck was added but not by whom. The seller attempts to mislead or imply that Scotty Cameron did this, albeit indirectly. The seller should be upfront that the modification was made by another aftermarket service not Scotty Cameron. This is my point. I find this to be a problem and lacks integrity and ethics. I do know that Scotty Cameron will not work on a putter that is not made/designed by him, period.

 

Nice, very nice, the comment about TCC members taking our panties out of our butts.

 

You don't get it, do you? If people see no problem with a seller using clever wording on a sale for the sole intent to mislead a buyer, probably ignorant about tour putters in the first place, then I hope you get ripped off buying a fake and lose your hard earned income. That is all I can say about the caviler attitude held by many here. Unbelievable.

 

 

What is clever????

 

Is it tour? No. ........

 

10 letters......four words.

 

Is it tour?.........A question asking is it tour provided by the seller.....for all the Tour nuts....yes I am one too..so I can say that without getting anyone's panties in a bunch.

 

No.....and answer again provided by the seller.. Negative...no...nada..It's Not.

 

I see nothing clever and nothing to fool anyone.....I don't agree with you and you know what...I don't wish you any bad purchases. :)

[samm980]

Robotdoctor while at first I was willing to listen to you but at this point you need to step off your high horse and calm down. I like how you felt the need to bring this 2 week old thread back up. I also have to give you credit for the snide remark about WRX in your Cameron Collector post.

 

 

Stay Classy!

[RobotDoctor]

I am not upset, not at the least, and see no reason to calm down. My breathing and heart rate is rather low right now. Thanks for the concern. :)

 

I did not make a snide remark about WRX in any post I have ever written. GolfWRX is a public forum that is not at fault of anything. My comment(s) are directed to people that find no issue with this practice. I am adamant about protecting the integrity of the designer, regardless of who the designer is, pertaining to their products. If Scotty Cameron made aftermarket alterations on a Slighter, Mills, Byron, or any other brand, I would state my opinion just as vehemently.

 

This is a public forum and many in here have no idea of this issue. Heck, this practice is new to me as well. Maybe I should conduct a poll to identify who thinks the practice of aftermarket alterations on putters other than the original designer is acceptable or deplorable. At least this way the line in the sand is drawn.

[samm980]

I am not upset, not at the least, and see no reason to calm down. My breathing and heart rate is rather low right now. Thanks for the concern. :)

 

I did not make a snide remark about WRX in any post I have ever written. GolfWRX is a public forum that is not at fault of anything. My comment(s) are directed to people that find no issue with this practice. I am adamant about protecting the integrity of the designer, regardless of who the designer is, pertaining to their products. If Scotty Cameron made aftermarket alterations on a Slighter, Mills, Byron, or any other brand, I would state my opinion just as vehemently.

 

This is a public forum and many in here have no idea of this issue. Heck, this practice is new to me as well. Maybe I should conduct a poll to identify who thinks the practice of aftermarket alterations on putters other than the original designer is acceptable or deplorable. At least this way the line in the sand is drawn.

 

 

I think everyone agrees on that bolded statement. Come on though it seems like you are beating the dead horse and won't let this die.