phoenix trip review

[isaacbm]

Just got back from my 9 day Phoenix trip. I played every day but one for a total of 11 rounds. I thought I'd let you guys know what I thought of the courses and where I would recommend you play.

 

I met up with a buddy that had an OB SPORTS card and a COPA CARD. This was key for the great rates we got. I think out of towners can purchase these cards for about $100-$150 each. They allow you and 3 guests to get out on a lot of courses for about 50% off regular prices.

 

First day we played Palm Valley in Goodyear. The Gateway tour has an event there every series. The course is open and fun with very little chance of losing a ball in the desert. There are water hazards but over all, very friendly for all handicaps. We got out there for $39 and the greens were great.

 

Next day we went to Raven at South Mountain (or maybe it's now called Raven Golf Club) I wish we would have waited to play this one because it kinda ruined me for the rest of the trip. We paid $65 and the conditions were better than almost any tour event I've ever played in. The greens were completely blemish free and rolling 12. The tees and fairways were perfect too. Cool course over all. All pine trees (no palm trees) and every hole feels pretty much secluded from every other hole. You won't hear a lot of "fore" being yelled out here. I wouldn't say it was my favorite design ever but the conditions will stick in my head for years.

 

Next we went to WEKOPA. This was easily the most over rated course I have ever played other than the scenery. The views were great and there were no homes on the course so there was that.... But the conditions of the greens were the worst I've seen in the desert in years and I play muni's a lot. This course is worth about 60 bucks to me. With our card, we paid only $75 but they are looking for $220 if you don't have an "in". Absolute rip off. I know some people will disagree with me on this one. I played there with 2 other friends that were 20 handicaps and they lost a dozen each. You would hit a shot down the middle and get to where your ball should be and it had rolled into a desert bush or a pile of 3 inch gravel. Just not my style of golf course. There was a par five with a vertical rock wall fronting the left side of the green and if you ended up left, you were in rocks trying to hit an explosion over the wall. Bring your worst set of clubs if you go here because they will get dented beyond belief.

 

Next we played a skins game at the 500 Club. Nice little public course near the north 101 loop. Pretty easy but still fun and our rate was $40. the course was in great shape and some of the holes were actually quite interesting. I wouldn't want to play there every day but I had a great time for great value.

 

Next came Southern Dunes in Maricopa. This course was absolutely awesome! It used to be an all mens private club but now is public. We paid $74 with a $10 replay rate. So we went 36 holes for $85. Amazing conditions (not Raven good but pretty good). I have a feeling this course was absolutely incredible when it was all private. You could tell where they were cutting costs but it was mostly esthetic. Don't go there if you don't like sand. There are about 150 bunkers and they all come into play. One of my buddies was about a 15 and he hated the sand. He just was in it all day. I personally could play this course every single day. Completely secluded from houses. Not a single bad hole out there. Great practice facilities, and very, very good food in the club house. But it's a golf course...not a resort course. If you want that...

 

Next we went to the Stadium at TPC. I only paid $90 because I went with a member so I was happy. One of the guys in the twosome we were paired with however paid full price of $350!!! You have got to be kidding me! It was barely worth $100 bucks! I mean, I know it's a "pga tour' facility and all that. it's cool to play a course you get to see on television. it's just that the management works the "pga tour' thing so hard. The course was in good condition but far from great. the greens were smooth and fairly fast but lots of ball marks. They sent a caddy out with us because the guy paid full rate. She was a good fore caddy and actually quite cute so that was fun. I think I tipped her more the the second then the first. LOL! The one thing that stood out about this course was how wet it was. they try to keep it green so they water the heck out of it. Drives were plugging in the fairway and it had been over 80 degrees every day for a week. We played the tips and I got killed out there. I only carry it about 265 so with zero roll, I was hitting hybrid and 3 iron into most par 4's. Highest round of the week for me with a big 80 on the card!

 

Nest we went back to Southern Dunes for 2 days. Me and a buddy had a 72 hole match. Can't say enough good things about this course. I birdied 5 holes in a row for the first time in 10 years. Maybe that's part of why I liked it so much. 7500 yards rated 76.1, but still very playable.

 

Last day I played Wigwam Red. They played a Gateway tour event there a week or so ago and I wanted to get back out there. I got a GOLFNOW rate of $55. I've always loved the Gold course at Wigwam but the Red is pretty good too. The greens were second only to Raven. Incredibly fast and smooth. the rest of the course was in pretty decent shape but they don't over seed the rough out there so it can look a little burnt out. I just love the big trees and park like setting of wigwam. It's the complete opposite of Wekopa. My ideal course has desert weather with a parkland design. Wigwam fits me perfectly.

 

I feel like I went a little higher end than I normally would when I go to the desert. I normally play a couple of great courses with Gateway Tour buddies because I won't have to pay full rate. But the rest of the time I play off Golfnow.com in the afternoons so I can get out for closer to $40 or so. This year though, with the discount cards and friends with memberships, I got out at higher end courses every day. Coming from Calgary where goat track muni's cost $50 and a 5 month membership is $3000 or more, Phoenix is amazing to me!

 

Hope someone got something out of this write up. I'm just wishing I was still there!

[highergr0und]

Sounds like a fantastic trip. Good job on getting on those courses at a discount.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='highergr0und' timestamp='1332608385' post='4570308']
Sounds like a fantastic trip. Good job on getting on those courses at a discount.
[/quote]

It was amazing. I'm planning on hitting the indoor dome again today but I'm not going to like it! Calgary sucks in winter.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332607620' post='4570268']

Next we went to WEKOPA. This was easily the most over rated course I have ever played other than the scenery. The views were great and there were no homes on the course so there was that.... But the conditions of the greens were the worst I've seen in the desert in years and I play muni's a lot. This course is worth about 60 bucks to me. With our card, we paid only $75 but they are looking for $220 if you don't have an "in". Absolute rip off. I know some people will disagree with me on this one. I played there with 2 other friends that were 20 handicaps and they lost a dozen each. You would hit a shot down the middle and get to where your ball should be and it had rolled into a desert bush or a pile of 3 inch gravel. Just not my style of golf course. There was a par five with a vertical rock wall fronting the left side of the green and if you ended up left, you were in rocks trying to hit an explosion over the wall. Bring your worst set of clubs if you go here because they will get dented beyond belief.

[/quote]

Wondering which of the two courses at We-Ko-Pa you played?

[YMark]

I live in Phoenix and have played a few of those courses. Agree with your writeup. Thanks.

[drake47]

I agree with you on We Ko Pa, I played it a few days ago and it is very over rated, fairways were ok, but the greens where a mess, the staff and the way the course is run could also really use some work. I have played it before and it seems to have gone downhill over the last year. I did see a bobcat so that was cool.

[pearls24]

To those of you who live in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, how long of a drive is it from Paradise Valley to Raven?

[isaacbm]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332632033' post='4572206']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332607620' post='4570268']
Next we went to WEKOPA. This was easily the most over rated course I have ever played other than the scenery. The views were great and there were no homes on the course so there was that.... But the conditions of the greens were the worst I've seen in the desert in years and I play muni's a lot. This course is worth about 60 bucks to me. With our card, we paid only $75 but they are looking for $220 if you don't have an "in". Absolute rip off. I know some people will disagree with me on this one. I played there with 2 other friends that were 20 handicaps and they lost a dozen each. You would hit a shot down the middle and get to where your ball should be and it had rolled into a desert bush or a pile of 3 inch gravel. Just not my style of golf course. There was a par five with a vertical rock wall fronting the left side of the green and if you ended up left, you were in rocks trying to hit an explosion over the wall. Bring your worst set of clubs if you go here because they will get dented beyond belief.

[/quote]

Wondering which of the two courses at We-Ko-Pa you played?
[/quote]
we played the cholla course. Like I said, it was beautiful and the food was good but the conditions and price were terrible compared to what's available else where in the city...

[isaacbm]

[quote name='pearls24' timestamp='1332677307' post='4574824']
To those of you who live in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, how long of a drive is it from Paradise Valley to Raven?
[/quote]

Paradise up in Scottsdale? We stayed near there. it's 25 mins with no traffic at the most. It's just south of sky harbour.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332691100' post='4575452']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332632033' post='4572206']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332607620' post='4570268']
Next we went to WEKOPA. This was easily the most over rated course I have ever played other than the scenery.

[/quote]

Wondering which of the two courses at We-Ko-Pa you played?
[/quote]
we played the cholla course. Like I said, it was beautiful and the food was good but the conditions and price were terrible compared to what's available else where in the city...
[/quote]

I agree the Cholla course is overrated. Next time try the Saguaro course. It is my favorite public in the valley. A Coore and Crenshaw design that is very interesting and both challenging for good golfers and fair and fun for those not so skilled.

Which course did you play Drake47?

[fore_life]

Good write up, I echo your ideals on desert weather and parkland golf, it's my favorite, maybe I need to check out the other tracks at wigwam(I've only played gold recently, wigwam was actually where I got my golfing start).

Southern dunes is still my fav out here though by far, I never get tired of it an every hole is just solid.

[XFelon]

[size="3"][/size]
Raven is one of my favorite if not my favorite course to play in AZ. Might be alittle bias being that I was a member there in 2010 before they got rid ofthem... I went back about 3 months ago for the first time and all I could sayis "WOW" they fixed a lot on that course. Two of the biggest reasonsI love it is that it’s NOT a desert course with pine trees lining mostfairways. Second - There greens are phenomenal.. I have heard to play the othercourse at We Ko Pa, I am glad you have that review on it. Sounds like you had agreat trip.




-Tristan[size="3"][/size]

[pearls24]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332692146' post='4575544']
[quote name='pearls24' timestamp='1332677307' post='4574824']
To those of you who live in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, how long of a drive is it from Paradise Valley to Raven?
[/quote]

Paradise up in Scottsdale? We stayed near there. it's 25 mins with no traffic at the most. It's just south of sky harbour.
[/quote]

Yes Paradise in Scottsdale at the Sanctuary Camelback Resort. I am def. going to have to book a tee time at Raven. I love great/fast greens and this sounds perfect.

[crew_138]

Good write up... I agree about Southern dunes... fantastic course. I want to play raven now.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='crew_138' timestamp='1332724815' post='4579624']
Good write up... I agree about Southern dunes... fantastic course. I want to play raven now.
[/quote]

I could alternate between those two and one of the Wigwam courses and just play those 3 again and again. I think Southern Dunes is in my top 10 courses i've ever played and I've played over 600 now....

[isaacbm]

[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1332699275' post='4576104']
Good write up, I echo your ideals on desert weather and parkland golf, it's my favorite, maybe I need to check out the other tracks at wigwam(I've only played gold recently, wigwam was actually where I got my golfing start).

Southern dunes is still my fav out here though by far, I never get tired of it an every hole is just solid.
[/quote]

Sorry we couldn't get out this time around. Hope all is well with the family...

[drake47]

[/quote]

I agree the Cholla course is overrated. Next time try the Saguaro course. It is my favorite public in the valley. A Coore and Crenshaw design that is very interesting and both challenging for good golfers and fair and fun for those not so skilled.

Which course did you play Drake47?
[/quote]

I have played both numerous times, I just think there are better courses in the area for less money. I also found the staff and service had really taken a step back from previous visits.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='drake47' timestamp='1332804595' post='4587366']
[quote]

I agree the Cholla course is overrated. Next time try the Saguaro course. It is my favorite public in the valley. A Coore and Crenshaw design that is very interesting and both challenging for good golfers and fair and fun for those not so skilled.

Which course did you play Drake47?
[/quote]

I have played both numerous times, I just think there are better courses in the area for less money. I also found the staff and service had really taken a step back from previous visits.
[/quote]

Which course did you play a couple of days ago where the "greens were a mess?" And what does that mean exactly?

I would have to concede, the high season visitor rate is not a great value. But while there may be courses for less, but I don't think there are any better than Saguaro. IMO of course.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332816018' post='4588854']
[quote name='drake47' timestamp='1332804595' post='4587366']
[quote]

I agree the Cholla course is overrated. Next time try the Saguaro course. It is my favorite public in the valley. A Coore and Crenshaw design that is very interesting and both challenging for good golfers and fair and fun for those not so skilled.

Which course did you play Drake47?
[/quote]

I have played both numerous times, I just think there are better courses in the area for less money. I also found the staff and service had really taken a step back from previous visits.
[/quote]

Which course did you play a couple of days ago where the "greens were a mess?" And what does that mean exactly?

I would have to concede, the high season visitor rate is not a great value. But while there may be courses for less, but I don't think there are any better than Saguaro. IMO of course.
[/quote]
The greens were slow, shaggy, and bumpy. The root structure was week. When you put your divot repair tool in the ground, the turf tore up easily and seemed like the grass was actually not growing well. If you bent down and took a close look, the greens didn't have enough over seed on them. I have a feeling when the summer grass comes back in they will be better.

Like I said, every other course we played was waaayyyyy better. If Raven's greens were 10 and the stadium, Southern Dunes, and wigwam Red were about an 8 or so. Wekopa was a 5 at best. The putting green at Dobson ranch at 830 at night under the lights was a 6. Wekopa was bad.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332825115' post='4589752']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332816018' post='4588854']

Which course did you play a couple of days ago where the "greens were a mess?" And what does that mean exactly?

I would have to concede, the high season visitor rate is not a great value. But while there may be courses for less, but I don't think there are any better than Saguaro. IMO of course.
[/quote]
The greens were slow, shaggy, and bumpy. The root structure was week. When you put your divot repair tool in the ground, the turf tore up easily and seemed like the grass was actually not growing well. If you bent down and took a close look, the greens didn't have enough over seed on them. I have a feeling when the summer grass comes back in they will be better.

Like I said, every other course we played was waaayyyyy better. If Raven's greens were 10 and the stadium, Southern Dunes, and wigwam Red were about an 8 or so. Wekopa was a 5 at best. The putting green at Dobson ranch at 830 at night under the lights was a 6. Wekopa was bad.
[/quote]

The question was for Drake47, but I appreciate your follow-up on the actual issue with the conditions.

Not trying to diminish your experience in any way Issac. I just want to make it clear for our readers here that the course that you found to have poor green conditions is the Cholla.

I suppose one might assume the "guilt by association" factor for the Saguaro course. Same facility, same maintenance staff, right? ... But in reality, they are two completely different courses built 6 years apart by a totally different design and construction teams. They are even overseeded three weeks apart so that one course remains open for play during the other one's grow-in. Could that mean there might be a difference in conditions between the two courses. Yes, definitely. Just trying to be fair.

Again, I'm not wanting to mitigate your observations. No one wants to travel and pay lots of money for less than desired conditions. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the Cholla course and it wouldn't matter much to me if your review made people think twice about playing it. However, I am an outspoken advocate of the Saguaro course, the design philosophy and the style of golf it represents, so I would be disappointed if someone chose not to visit the Saguaro because of your review of the Cholla.


.

[Joe Roe]

Totally agree on the Raven at South Mountain review. Used to have a sweet hook-up there, and loved every minute of it. Wig-Wam Red is also a very under-rated West-Valley course. The new management there is doing a great job with the place. Love the other West Valley courses (Copper Canyon, Raven at Verrado, GC of Estrella) and definitely want to try out Southern Dunes. Can anyone tell me the conditions of Southern Dunes in the summer when it falls into my teacher-salary budget? Thanks!!

[isaacbm]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332872976' post='4592830']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1332825115' post='4589752']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1332816018' post='4588854']
Which course did you play a couple of days ago where the "greens were a mess?" And what does that mean exactly?

I would have to concede, the high season visitor rate is not a great value. But while there may be courses for less, but I don't think there are any better than Saguaro. IMO of course.
[/quote]
The greens were slow, shaggy, and bumpy. The root structure was week. When you put your divot repair tool in the ground, the turf tore up easily and seemed like the grass was actually not growing well. If you bent down and took a close look, the greens didn't have enough over seed on them. I have a feeling when the summer grass comes back in they will be better.

Like I said, every other course we played was waaayyyyy better. If Raven's greens were 10 and the stadium, Southern Dunes, and wigwam Red were about an 8 or so. Wekopa was a 5 at best. The putting green at Dobson ranch at 830 at night under the lights was a 6. Wekopa was bad.
[/quote]

The question was for Drake47, but I appreciate your follow-up on the actual issue with the conditions.

Not trying to diminish your experience in any way Issac. I just want to make it clear for our readers here that the course that you found to have poor green conditions is the Cholla.

I suppose one might assume the "guilt by association" factor for the Saguaro course. Same facility, same maintenance staff, right? ... But in reality, they are two completely different courses built 6 years apart by a totally different design and construction teams. They are even overseeded three weeks apart so that one course remains open for play during the other one's grow-in. Could that mean there might be a difference in conditions between the two courses. Yes, definitely. Just trying to be fair.

Again, I'm not wanting to mitigate your observations. No one wants to travel and pay lots of money for less than desired conditions. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the Cholla course and it wouldn't matter much to me if your review made people think twice about playing it. However, I am an outspoken advocate of the Saguaro course, the design philosophy and the style of golf it represents, so I would be disappointed if someone chose not to visit the Saguaro because of your review of the Cholla.


.
[/quote]
I hear you. He basically just said that he'd played both courses numerous times so I figured I'd expand on my experience. I was told by some people to play the one course and some the other so maybe I got out on the one that was in worse condition. Either way, 220$ is way too much for the value. Unless a player can get the OB Card rate of under $100 I would avoid this course unless you're made of money.

I do appreciate that the designs could be dramatically different and that one is older than the other...

[chiromikey]

[quote name='Joe Roe' timestamp='1332880722' post='4593706']
...Can anyone tell me the conditions of Southern Dunes in the summer when it falls into my teacher-salary budget? Thanks!!
[/quote]

summer actually has always been the "green" season for southern dunes but now that troon took over managment they keep it green all year round. they used to let the bermuda go dormant in the winter and it totally changed the course. it would play more like a links style course. many of the people that were members or used to play a few years ago now complain about the overseeding in the winter but i think those old guys just like getting an extra 50yds of roll on their drives!

[fore_life]

I def liked the way the course played before thy started overseeding, but it doesn't make it bad now by any means. I blame tourists who don't understand that a course doesn't have to be green to be good. I actually had a group of guys ask if was always in this bad of shape a few years ago with the dormant grass, I had to laugh as it was in awesome shape and the greens were blazing fast!

What time of summer? Its like 30 for all you can play in the peak heat

[chiromikey]

it's definitely the fault of tourists not understanding that "green" isn't the main criteria that makes a course unique. i enjoyed the fact that you had to change the way you managed the course between seasons.

now that troon is running southern dunes, we should see a small price drop in april then another drop to summer rates in june.

[teejaywhy]

I wouldn't be quick to blame tourists - because the tourists represent a cross section of mainstream golfers and for most golfers, tourists and locals alike, the green presentation is important.

I have nothing against green per se, except when it impedes on good playing conditions. We all assumed that the Ak-Chin acquisition coupled with Troon management and a stated goal to target tourists and casino visitors implied a move toward the overly-lush treatment and the fear of the loss of a great firm & fast playing course. But I haven't been out there this winter so I don't know.

The maintenance presentation at Longbow shows that you can have green grass AND a firm/fast playing surface. Unfortunately many places (Talking Stick North...) just keep things way too soft.

I will say, my first visits to Southern Dunes when they just opened for public play were during the winter, and they were playing on dormant Bermuda greens! This I hadn't seen in the Phoenix area for thirty years. With the small membership, they could keep them rolled and firm, yet still receptive, lightning fast and true. A wonderful experience. Obviously not possible now with the increased traffic of public play, but it was pretty cool.

.