Call it progress? working out flaws

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

love to get some guidence, pat needs passing

Here is my swing, I've lost a lot of distance returning from an ACL surgery, I've been playing decent just inconsistent and something feels off. I took some video that ive studied and this is what I see...
I'm pulling the club inside in my back swing, move at the top that gets club back on plain, head moves towards the ball, slight squat in my transition, losing lag, hips closed at impact, and I cast it a bit.

Working on more width in backswing, more hip turn, and a better release down the line.

With my driver I can now feel the shaft and presume I'm loading it, with those swing thoughts I'm striking it well.. iron shots are either thin or super high.
Dtl iron and dtl driver before working on what I posted above.. all this after losing 15yrds with my irons and 30-40 w my woods.

Anything you see?

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

7i. Dtl


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ne5mO7Ae7U&feature=plcp

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Driver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUxAvFU_kw

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Ill post some vids of me attempting a "better" swing and get some head on angles as well..
Any and all input is appreciated

[GatorPaul]

I would be mindful of the steepness of the downswing caused by getting the club over your plane. In fact if you watch over and over on the 7iron video from :13 to :14 you can almost see the handle working out towards the ball setting you up for that steepness.

One thing that may help a little would be to not get the club so high at the top. Your left arm hikes up well above your shoulder plane and thus your right elbow is quite high as well. Some great players have played from a similar spot, but their downswings will be marked by a shallowing of the plane where you see the arms dropping and the right elbow falling down near the right hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sskWanNH6WU&feature=fvwp&NR=1

So if you dont want to work on the top of the swing position, work on a move that will get you back on plane. If you do want to improve your position at the top, do some mirror work and try and get your left arm to cover your shoulder line and the right elbow to feel significantly more connected to the right side.

I am also concerned about how active your hands and arms are overall. Because that club starts working outward and never gets "set" at the top leads me to think you are already engaging the hands before the club finishes going back. All of these improvements will take effect quicker if you can soften up the arms so that they are [u]reacting to your unwinding process[/u], not driving it.

Also its an abstract thought but for me, I sometimes feel that my unwinding process initiates before my club is finished going back. This way when the club nears the top there are other forces pulling on hands and they can just remain soft. This takes away that anxiety of the top of the swing, where the hands can typically takeover the roles of the bigger muscles.

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

First off I'd like to thank you for the in depth reply, all awesome insight and great points.

My initialthought is I need to I need to start the downswing by getting the weight to my left side and letting my over active hands fall in behind my lower body, is that correct?
Also by taking the club back more on plain vs inside I can elliminate the inside out move i do similar to Jim but deferent cause I go from inside plain to out vs him falling back to on plain?
Hips are slightly open but tend to get closed at impact, is that apparent or are they looking good at impact in these clips?
Thanks again!

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

About the hands... and club grip "moving towards the ball" would this ultimately, even tho solid contact and good divot happens, cause a higher ball flight and/or loss of distance?

[GatorPaul]

[quote name='-o0DanKNesS0o-' timestamp='1336101223' post='4844998']
First off I'd like to thank you for the in depth reply, all awesome insight and great points.

My initialthought is I need to I need to start the downswing by getting the weight to my left side and letting my over active hands fall in behind my lower body, is that correct?
Also by taking the club back more on plain vs inside I can elliminate the inside out move i do similar to Jim but deferent cause I go from inside plain to out vs him falling back to on plain?
Hips are slightly open but tend to get closed at impact, is that apparent or are they looking good at impact in these clips?
Thanks again!
[/quote]


Whatever works for you is fine. Whatever on video replay gets the clubhandle working more downward from the change of directions. This may be a bump or whatever. Just make sure your hands feel out of the equation and that will help the club to fall effortlessly. Hand speed is good but it is most advantageous closer to impact.

Yes taking the club back more on plane will help your top of the swing position. Inside takeaways usually lead to a lift up to the top, and then an OTT to start down. There are some good players who have grooved this move to precision and been successful, but they are always fade hitters. Since the club is on a path to swing across the line, they must hold the release somewhat or they would always hit pulls. Hale Irwin, Craig Stadler, and Bruce Lietzke come to mind. Ofcourse their inside and over swings were somewhat more mild in shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sskWanNH6WU&feature=fvwp&NR=1

Your hips look like they are moving out of the way fine to me, but once that club gets steep coming down you are already behind the 8 ball.

[GatorPaul]

Huh the wrong link was pasted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLS493lLDXY

[GatorPaul]

[quote name='-o0DanKNesS0o-' timestamp='1336103333' post='4845256']
About the hands... and club grip "moving towards the ball" would this ultimately, even tho solid contact and good divot happens, cause a higher ball flight and/or loss of distance?
[/quote]

Yes it could. A face on video would confirm this. Alot of times a steep hit will cause a higher ball flight, and if coupled with an early release can also make the overall shot weaker in distance - yes.

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

I'm still learning the golf swing language lol... Would you mind explaining "getting to STEEP on the down swing"?
I see my self squat in my transition,so steep to me means coming outside side the line making the down swing more "straight" vs ... Uh well, rounded like this: ) -is that righ
Although i have played well, and have scored good, I really want to learn as much as I can as to why. Why this why that. For me understanding why a golf ball will fade or draw helped me impart the correct conditions for it to do so.
Unfortunetly I was at the range solo yesterday and today, and will play alone tomorrow. If I get a chance to have the wifey film a head on I will. + a new dtl of what i feel to be an improved swing.
Thanks for your time I appreciate it.

[GatorPaul]

Simple - as the club swings over plane coming down the shaft itself will be in a more vertical fashion, thus the description of "steep" is used. Here is a quick screenshot of you at the top as well as during the downswing. See the up and down nature of the shaft? Below is Anthony Kim so you can compare.

[attachment=1149652:Steep DS.jpg]

[attachment=1149654:AK Shallows Plane.jpg]

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

So its outside?

[GatorPaul]

[quote name='-o0DanKNesS0o-' timestamp='1336197248' post='4853008']
So its outside?
[/quote]

Yep you got it. Your club head is too outside your body while his is still back behind him.

[russc1597187869]

Steep at the top .Spinning your shoulders to start your downswing.
The downswing consists first of lateral motion to establish your left pivot point over your left heel/ankle..After this is established ,you can then rotate around this left pivot point for the rest of the downswing.You fail to establish this left pivot point first .

You are not steep going back until the last part of your backswing ,where you lift your left arm and become very steep.
Place a small nerf ball/credit card deep inside your left armpit and do not drop the nerf ball/credit card until well after impact
I am betting that a face on video will also show that your setup angles are off .

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Understood.. ill post some face on vids asap, but I think my set up is pretty basic. What are you doubting, ball placement, shoulders, or hands in relation to ball placement?
Obviously the video will tell all, so ill get on that asap

[DigDugDig]

This is just a suggestion, but as a player who already has good looking tempo to your swing and swings smoothly, perhaps using Ryan Moore's swing as an example of reversing the inside backswing - over the top downswing?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VMegdj29o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VMegdj29o[/url]

He's an extreme example of taking the club up outside and dropping it back to the inside, which shallows out his approach into impact.

A BETTER example, in my opinion, would be David Toms. He takes the club back outside to a high hands position, and then just ROTATES his body through without any manipulation from the hands...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAHGS1sRQg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAHGS1sRQg[/url]

Either swing has the club going up more "outside", which will (in my opinion) help you naturally shallow it out a bit more coming into impact.

[mikpga]

Love your motion and balance...

As everyone has stated, your forward swing is too much "over-the-top, above plane, outside/in", however you would like to think of it...

Get an empty shoe box and put just outside the ball so there's just enough clearance for the toe of the club to swing through without hitting the box...

Start with half swings and simply avoid missing the box, continue to progress to slightly longer swings without striking the shoebox...

[GatorPaul]

[quote name='aceyducey' timestamp='1336305586' post='4857994']
This is just a suggestion, but as a player who already has good looking tempo to your swing and swings smoothly, perhaps using Ryan Moore's swing as an example of reversing the inside backswing - over the top downswing?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VMegdj29o"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-1VMegdj29o[/url]

He's an extreme example of taking the club up outside and dropping it back to the inside, which shallows out his approach into impact.

A BETTER example, in my opinion, would be David Toms. He takes the club back outside to a high hands position, and then just ROTATES his body through without any manipulation from the hands...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAHGS1sRQg"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RxAHGS1sRQg[/url]

Either swing has the club going up more "outside", which will (in my opinion) help you naturally shallow it out a bit more coming into impact.
[/quote]


Yes. Ryan Moore is a more modern player with a dramatic outside to in 'drop move'. Good call!

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Thanks everyone, ill be putting in work w these swing thoughts and see how getting on plain works out lol.
With the big inside out.move it kinda baffles me how I am able to work the ball. I suppose when I hit a draw I exaggerate the inside move but then keep it inside.

I'm also kind of curious, could the inside out move be a power leak?? I think it would certainly add loft even if I didn't hit a fade,and expains the tee lines on the bottom of the driver. I see them bend from the face out even on straight shots, and see now thats because the club head is decending on a different path then it should be (outside). I think curing this is going to change my ball flight and distances pretty noticeably, and hopefully I can convert that into a more consistent swing and better scores.

[GatorPaul]

I'm also kind of curious, could the inside out move be a power leak?? I think it would certainly add loft even if I didn't hit a fade,and expains the tee lines on the bottom of the driver. I see them bend from the face out even on straight shots, and see now thats because the club head is decending on a different path then it should be (outside). I think curing this is going to change my ball flight and distances pretty noticeably, and hopefully I can convert that into a more consistent swing and better scores.
[/quote]

I assume you meant outside in as a power leak? Yes it is. The club tends to extend (right arm and shaft straighten) too early compared with an inside out angle of attack. I am not surprised you can draw the ball, but swingers with this flaw will have hard time getting the ball to start well right of their target and then draw. The reason is that the arms are travelling in a direction to start the shot at or left of the target. I assume most of your draw hits end up left of your target and the reason is that path.

Yes changing the path will improve your ball flight, overall power, and control. Remember the goal is to hit the ball just inside the dead center of the back of the ball (the side closer to your body).

About the tee marks....yours are likely diagonal marks between the center of the club and the toe? Improving this path will make the marks more straightish and more down the center. If you get really inside you may even see them slightly diagonal from the center more towards the heel side of the head.

Good Luck.

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Yea you got it, I do both at different times and Its kind of confusing.. my back swing is inside downswing goes outside and I connect w the ball coming from the out side in. Inside out to outside in I suppose.
But yes I see what yiur saying. My draw shot does then to straight and then drawing in where as a good fade goes left of straight then comes around to right. More of a rounded flight I guess.

With these swing changes I'm sure ill have new things to work out so ill update tomorrow w some results and swings

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='-o0DanKNesS0o-' timestamp='1336304559' post='4857956']
Understood.. ill post some face on vids asap, but I think my set up is pretty basic. What are you doubting, ball placement, shoulders, or hands in relation to ball placement?
Obviously the video will tell all, so ill get on that asap
[/quote]
Among other things
spine tilt at address and going back
Lateral and upward head motion going back and down
Lateral movement by the body going back and down
Transition movements
Leverage dumping
Position of feet near impact and going back

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Care to elaborate?

Here is some recent vids trying to correct my inside out back swing and trying to have more width. Off the bat I think I can stand a little straighter at address.. fire away swing gurus!

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Driver head on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JeGtHz6j8E

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

Driver dtl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5O9gr_luvY

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

7i dtl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFfxUbpdde4

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

7i head on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uamer-ZIvI

[-o0DanKNesS0o-]

The more I watch my head on the head on driver swing the more fugly I think my head movement is.. it appears to go back to my right side a good bit then on my downswing pretty close to where it started at address. Not sure if any pros get away with this, anyone know what this causes? I feel like my top of swing looks good but that head movement can't be a good thing.
I wonder if this swaying motion is causing misshits and power loss. Definitely will work to fix this asap looks like crap.

Is this me sliding my hips into my right side or am I making a good hip turn but bringing my upper body and head to far to the right instead of staying still and rotating around my spine.

[GatorPaul]

Definitely sliding excessively there with the driver. If you watch closely you actually end up in front of the original starting position of your head (relative to the building windows). While this is forward slide is happening, you are releasing the club away from you too early. You probably got in the habit of doing this because if you didnt release early with that lateral slide, you would hit the ball miles to the right. The early release is away to try and straighten a would be blocked shot.

Listen you arent going to quit sliding in the short term. Try and lessen the sway off the ball, and once your head has moved behind the ball - leave it back there. I would try and feel a little more right knee drive (towards the target not the ball) as a means to start your swing downward. Do not focus on your upper body to start the downswing laterally or rotationally. These videos may help.

Leg Action.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTu7FHeNEGI&feature=plcp

Delaying the release.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIN03JMXLrA&feature=plcp

There is no short cut or quick fix. Lots of reps!!