Purest one plane swing since Hogan

[Tee_Party]

Matty Kuchar

 

Was on display today at The Players

 

Hats off to Matt, his wife and kids.

 

Also congrats to his swing coach Chris O'Connell

 

And to Jim Hardy, inventor of the one plane swing, developed after unlocking Hogan's secrets.

[tgreenwood11]

Kuchar wrote the forward in Hardy's new book "Solud Contact" which is a book about a system to self instruct.

Obviously the Chris O'Connell/Jim Hardy one plane swing works for Kuchar who claims it only took 5 swings to get it.

I've seen Hardy twice and John Hobbins, another Hardy instructor several times. It took me a lot more than 5 swings but eventually I dropped from a 7 to a 1 over a 3 year period.

In my opinion, Hardy is one of the finest instructors ever. Plus he's one of the nicest people you would ever meet and a true gentleman.

Congrats to Matt Kuchar.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1336994823' post='4910206']
Kuchar wrote the forward in Hardy's new book "Solud Contact" which is a book about a system to self instruct.

Obviously the Chris O'Connell/Jim Hardy one plane swing works for Kuchar who claims it only took 5 swings to get it.

I've seen Hardy twice and John Hobbins, another Hardy instructor several times. It took me a lot more than 5 swings but eventually I dropped from a 7 to a 1 over a 3 year period.

In my opinion, Hardy is one of the finest instructors ever. Plus he's one of the nicest people you would ever meet and a true gentleman.

Congrats to Matt Kuchar.
[/quote]

I've always loved Jim Hardy's principles. The rationales for his methods...the vertical/upright shoulder turn, the L arm flinging across the shoulder line, the L foot/hip little move to start the DS, the R forearm drop, the turning of the L arm during DS, the maintenance of spine tilt towards the targetline throughout the swing...

What I cannot fathom is the R elbow going back to the side of torso in BS, and L elbow going back to the side of torso in DS. In the BS I see it totally dependent on one's R hand grip, and in DS it is a death move for Hogan. Other than these, I don't see any disagreements at all, except maybe lack of focus on HOW to maintain the spine inclination/tilt towards the targetline because one cannot do that by just thinking that.

Tee_party, any clarification on these? Am I wrong IYHO? Anything that should be explained more in detail?

[Poser]

I honestly don't like watching his swing looks like a rag doll slinging his arms around.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='fuab' timestamp='1337001852' post='4910590']
I honestly don't like watching his swing looks like a rag doll slinging his arms around.
[/quote]

Yeah...loosy goosy...IMO its because of that R elbow moving back towards the side/inseam move...you are forced to loosen your grip and lose the connection in the armpits...is a compensation and thus helps in maintaining the L wristcock and lag though...

[ej002]

I like Kuch and even Hardy, but the lawnmower move is total garbage IMO.


How is Hogan OPS? He clearly plane shifts and even says so himself in 5L. To be exactly OP is bad and very difficult IMO.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1337091059' post='4917778']
I like Kuch and even Hardy, but the lawnmower move is total garbage IMO.


How is Hogan OPS? He clearly plane shifts and even says so himself in 5L. To be exactly OP is bad and very difficult IMO.
[/quote]

I don't think that's how Hardy defines OPS. His OPS is just the fact that the L arm swings on the shoulder line. That's it.

[ej002]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337092979' post='4917972']

I don't think that's how Hardy defines OPS. His OPS is just the fact that the L arm swings on the shoulder line. That's it.
[/quote]

I know its not, but when OPS comes to our section they have to play by our rules!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1337108914' post='4919720']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337092979' post='4917972']
I don't think that's how Hardy defines OPS. His OPS is just the fact that the L arm swings on the shoulder line. That's it.
[/quote]

I know its not, but when OPS comes to our section they have to play by our rules!
[/quote]


Yeah...I even see Hogan triiple shifting...he stays on hands/shaft plane for a while in takeaway, then shifts to elbow plane, then to turned shoulder plane in driver swings...

If I can have my own way with terms...I'd say Hogan's only plane is the "R armpit connected plane"...lol...IMO, everything adjusts to this plane of his...there's a special way to do it though...

[tgreenwood11]

In one of Hardy's DVDs he had to clarify the "lawnmower" move. He noticed that students attending his seminars had practiced the move so much that the right arm had no width and was cramped up against their right side with the shaft pointing to the right of the target resulting in a very narrow and steep downswing. The move he didn't explain well was to let the right forearm twist clockwise while staying or "flying" away from the body. He even crafted a device; made out of flexible tubing used for rainspout extension that you could put your whole right arm in to prevent it from hugging your right side while swinging. He actually apologized for not making the move very clear.

One thing is for sure; because golfers stand to the side of the ball, the arms and club are swung to the inside of the target line on the backswing and forward swing. One planers swing on more of an inclined circle and two planers swing on more of an inclined oval. Both are very effective. Hardy believes its easier to repeat the one plane swing but actually teaches both methods.

[Tee_Party]

Yes.

Jim often emphasizes how the right arm is the key arm in the golfswing.

[svsvincenzo]

That ain't Hogan. He didn't have to intentionally keep the face closed to prevent over rotation and too inside and trapped sweetspot...it just won't...and he doesn't have to pull the clubshaft back and up in transition via that R elbow back and up move because, again, his sweetspot/face won't over rotate or close too fast nor would he lose the L wristcock and lag fast...it just couldn't...

[ej002]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337132372' post='4922094']Yeah...I even see Hogan triiple shifting...he stays on hands/shaft plane for a while in takeaway, then shifts to elbow plane, then to turned shoulder plane in driver swings...

If I can have my own way with terms...I'd say Hogan's only plane is the "R armpit connected plane"...lol...IMO, everything adjusts to this plane of his...[b]there's a special way to do it though[/b]...
[/quote]

More PR for your book? Lol... Secrets don't make friends.

+1 on it isn't Hogan. The Hardy OP guys have a wierd right arm action.

I do commend him on his ideas of separating the golf swing types. I just think his OPS can be improved on.

[Brahmabull102002]

Hoganfan - tried to send you a pm.

[hoganfan924]

I like Hardy too and Kuchar (maybe it's that perma-smile . They both come across as very genuine and good people. EJ's right though, that "lawnmower move" with the right elbow and subsequent "throw-over" with the right arm in the downswing (a necessary compensation for the lawnmower pull to begin with) are the antithesis of Hogan. Unfortunately, it seems to me that Hardy kind of painted himself into a corner with an overly simplified explanation of what defines a 1PS by using the position at the top of the backswing as the primary defining characteristic.

Frankly, Kuchar is well under plane with his arms at the top and his release is more of a hybrid of Hardy's own definitions of 1PS and 2PS. There are "two plane" swingers out there (Toms and Furyk come to mind) that are more "one plane" releasers than Kuchar is. So, IMO, he's not at Hardy's own ideal 1PS model (at least as defined in his books - perhaps they've changed something in their teaching since) and therefore nowhere near the "purest 1PS since Hogan," let alone the "purest 1PS in the Hardy stable." Scott McCarron a few years ago was closer to the ideal Hardy 1PS model than Kuchar, and Mahan has a better 1PS per Hardy's definition than Kuchar, IMO. Here are some good slo-mo's for direct comparison. Note how Kuchar's "inner circle" on the downswing isn't as tight as Toms' or Mahan's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nenjQzfgl-k&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=An9GbjeL8ng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjloy9HXfG0&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=9yFHooMH19s

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1337178138' post='4924600']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337132372' post='4922094']Yeah...I even see Hogan triiple shifting...he stays on hands/shaft plane for a while in takeaway, then shifts to elbow plane, then to turned shoulder plane in driver swings...

If I can have my own way with terms...I'd say Hogan's only plane is the "R armpit connected plane"...lol...IMO, everything adjusts to this plane of his...[b]there's a special way to do it though[/b]...
[/quote]

More PR for your book? Lol... Secrets don't make friends.

+1 on it isn't Hogan. The Hardy OP guys have a wierd right arm action.

I do commend him on his ideas of separating the golf swing types. I just think his OPS can be improved on.
[/quote]

Yup...it will be released soon...entitled "The Hogan Secret of All Secrets - The Special Way..."...lol...or.."Special Edition"...lol...will not be cheap though...will SRP at USD899.99...lol

By special way to do it I just meant DIFFERENT from what Hardy suggests...should not have used the word "special"... But I think all of us Hogan nuts will agree Hogan's way is a special way...isn't it?

[tgreenwood11]

I'm a huge Hogan fan; got the original "Follow the Sun" movie poster in my office and a signed first edition Five Lessons. Hardy is a big Hogan fan also and actually knew him. Hardy is very agnostic on backswing moves for the most part in one plane backswings or "hybrids". He is less agnostic on one plane downswings and for example. Thinks Furyk has one of the most technically perfect one plane downswings. He also explained to me and others that almost all one plane swingers are hybrids and only a few have what he calls "pure one planers".

Kuchar is definitely under the plane on the backswing and in fact on his longer clubs employs more of a cross over release. Both O' Connell and Hardy know this and basically leave it alone.

"One Plane" in my opinion from what I've experienced and heard from Hardy is more of a reference point to emulate but not totally achievable for most. Close is good enough. My backswing is above the plane but I do drop into the inner circle and have achieved remarkable improvement in my shot making.

As for Ben Hogan, I'm pretty sure he had his hands moving on an inner circle and his clubhead on an outer circle and his body and arms stabilized the club for incredibly solid strikes.

[hoganfan924]

So if we say he has a 0.5 plane backswing and a 1.5 plane downswing it averages to a 1PS! lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1337220813' post='4928706']
So if we say he has a 0.5 plane backswing and a 1.5 plane downswing it averages to a 1PS! lol
[/quote]

If we are to critique something, we have to understand first the connotation of their terms. And I think the connotation of Hardy's OPS is simply the fact that the L arm goes across the shoulder line.

It ain't about both the L arm and shoulders traveling on a single plane, such as the hands/shaft plane, elbow plane, turned shoulder plane, address shoulder plane, etc., which is impossible anyway.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337223478' post='4929056']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1337220813' post='4928706']
So if we say he has a 0.5 plane backswing and a 1.5 plane downswing it averages to a 1PS! lol
[/quote]

If we are to critique something, we have to understand first the connotation of their terms. And I think the connotation of Hardy's OPS is simply the fact that the L arm goes across the shoulder line.

It ain't about both the L arm and shoulders traveling on a single plane, such as the hands/shaft plane, elbow plane, turned shoulder plane, address shoulder plane, etc., which is impossible anyway.
[/quote]

I've read both the 1PS and Master class Hardy books as well as viewed several of his continuing education DVD's. I fully understand their use of the terms. See my previous post.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1337223927' post='4929098']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1337223478' post='4929056']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1337220813' post='4928706']
So if we say he has a 0.5 plane backswing and a 1.5 plane downswing it averages to a 1PS! lol
[/quote]

If we are to critique something, we have to understand first the connotation of their terms. And I think the connotation of Hardy's OPS is simply the fact that the L arm goes across the shoulder line.

It ain't about both the L arm and shoulders traveling on a single plane, such as the hands/shaft plane, elbow plane, turned shoulder plane, address shoulder plane, etc., which is impossible anyway.
[/quote]

I've read both the 1PS and Master class Hardy books as well as viewed several of his continuing education DVD's. I fully understand their use of the terms. See my previous post.
[/quote]

I think Matt is pretty much the OPS Hardy is advocating. His L arm never went above the shoulder plane/line. So its OPS per Hardy definition. If it went above, then that will be 2PS. The way I look at it, its pretty much Hogan, except the elbows bending up and back actions, which to my mind are just compensations for a non-Hogan grip.

[darnoldil]

Hmmm, my understanding is that the fundamental difference between a OP and TP swing is how the club is brought back square at impact. A TP swing must synchronize a vertical (think Ferris wheel) club path with a horizontal torso path, and those two divergent paths create timing issues in order to square the club face at impact. An OP swing puts the club path more or less on a similar path as the torso path, both are more on an inclined pathway instead of one being more vertical and the other more horizontal (Ferris wheel that is tilted). The OP swing does not have to reconcile the club and the torso pathways at the moment of truth like a TP swing does, so it results in greater consistency. The whole idea about the left arm being below the right shoulder was only a generalized visual checkpoint, something to help identify what type of swinger a person MIGHT be at a quick glance.

Our constant visual assessments of OP or TP swingers can get monotonous in their detail because there are points within the swing, given a particular viewing angle, where we may not be able to them apart for sure. For instance, directly at impact, can you tell an OP swinger from a TP swinger? If you have a snapshot or video taken at an FO view versus a DTL view, will the different angles affect or visual cues for telling the two types apart? What about the type of shot the golfer was trying to hit, could their draw setup give them a look that belies what they normally would look like in their swing? An OP golfer that goes past parallel may end up looking like a TP if you catch them at the very top of their swing once they are past parallel, or they can look like a "perfect" OP swinger if you catch them just short of being parallel in their swing. So we should be a little more cautious and remember that the main difference between an OP and TP swing is in the club path-to-torso path relationship and not just where the left arm is in relationship to their right shoulder.

Ideally, for a reference point, a OP swinger will have their left arm (for a right handed golfer of course) at or below their right shoulder because that visual most easily SHOWS that the club path is in a similar orbit (pathway) as the torso path. What we as golfers need to do is pick a general swing type, and stop trying to make a bunch of "mini-me" disciples by insisting that there is only one swing type and one way of executing that swing type (when there are a number of ways to execute either an OP or TP swing). Even though there is more than one way to swing a golf club effectively, I do agree with Mr. Hardy's theory that they all fall into two general types, either OP or TP. Just some thoughts.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='darnoldil' timestamp='1338260004' post='4992148']
Hmmm, my understanding is that the fundamental difference between a OP and TP swing is how the club is brought back square at impact. A TP swing must synchronize a vertical (think Ferris wheel) club path with a horizontal torso path, and those two divergent paths create timing issues in order to square the club face at impact. An OP swing puts the club path more or less on a similar path as the torso path, both are more on an inclined pathway instead of one being more vertical and the other more horizontal (Ferris wheel that is tilted). The OP swing does not have to reconcile the club and the torso pathways at the moment of truth like a TP swing does, so it results in greater consistency. The whole idea about the left arm being below the right shoulder was only a generalized visual checkpoint, something to help identify what type of swinger a person MIGHT be at a quick glance.

Our constant visual assessments of OP or TP swingers can get monotonous in their detail because there are points within the swing, given a particular viewing angle, where we may not be able to them apart for sure. For instance, directly at impact, can you tell an OP swinger from a TP swinger? If you have a snapshot or video taken at an FO view versus a DTL view, will the different angles affect or visual cues for telling the two types apart? What about the type of shot the golfer was trying to hit, could their draw setup give them a look that belies what they normally would look like in their swing? An OP golfer that goes past parallel may end up looking like a TP if you catch them at the very top of their swing once they are past parallel, or they can look like a "perfect" OP swinger if you catch them just short of being parallel in their swing. So we should be a little more cautious and remember that the main difference between an OP and TP swing is in the club path-to-torso path relationship and not just where the left arm is in relationship to their right shoulder.

Ideally, for a reference point, a OP swinger will have their left arm (for a right handed golfer of course) at or below their right shoulder because that visual most easily SHOWS that the club path is in a similar orbit (pathway) as the torso path. What we as golfers need to do is pick a general swing type, and stop trying to make a bunch of "mini-me" disciples by insisting that there is only one swing type and one way of executing that swing type (when there are a number of ways to execute either an OP or TP swing). Even though there is more than one way to swing a golf club effectively, I do agree with Mr. Hardy's theory that they all fall into two general types, either OP or TP. Just some thoughts.
[/quote]


Totally agree with you. OP is where the torso and L arm path is more inline, TP is where they are not inline (which you have to merge somewhere later). Looking at it on top is not a perfect gauge whether one is OP or TP. A TP player with an overly short BS will look OP, while a OP player with an overly flexible body with a longer BS will look like TP if the only gauge is whether or not the L arm is inline with the shoulder line. Nice post.

But on another aspect, I am wondering for the need to do a TP swing. The only benefit of a TP swing is the vertical aspect helping the clubhead go down and hence faster clubhead speed because gravity is in play a lot. But this aspect of gravity helping is also attained in the OP swing because the shoulders is turning vertical.

The only thing I can see that will see the need to use TP instead of OP is if the golfer is EXTREMELY inflexible. But then again, if you are inflexible, you can just let your hips turn more, even in an equal amount as that of the shoulders by simply letting your L knee bend more and/or flare your R foot more, ain't it?

[darnoldil]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1338264036' post='4992424']
[quote name='darnoldil' timestamp='1338260004' post='4992148']
Hmmm, my understanding is that the fundamental difference between a OP and TP swing is how the club is brought back square at impact. A TP swing must synchronize a vertical (think Ferris wheel) club path with a horizontal torso path, and those two divergent paths create timing issues in order to square the club face at impact. An OP swing puts the club path more or less on a similar path as the torso path, both are more on an inclined pathway instead of one being more vertical and the other more horizontal (Ferris wheel that is tilted). The OP swing does not have to reconcile the club and the torso pathways at the moment of truth like a TP swing does, so it results in greater consistency. The whole idea about the left arm being below the right shoulder was only a generalized visual checkpoint, something to help identify what type of swinger a person MIGHT be at a quick glance.

Our constant visual assessments of OP or TP swingers can get monotonous in their detail because there are points within the swing, given a particular viewing angle, where we may not be able to them apart for sure. For instance, directly at impact, can you tell an OP swinger from a TP swinger? If you have a snapshot or video taken at an FO view versus a DTL view, will the different angles affect or visual cues for telling the two types apart? What about the type of shot the golfer was trying to hit, could their draw setup give them a look that belies what they normally would look like in their swing? An OP golfer that goes past parallel may end up looking like a TP if you catch them at the very top of their swing once they are past parallel, or they can look like a "perfect" OP swinger if you catch them just short of being parallel in their swing. So we should be a little more cautious and remember that the main difference between an OP and TP swing is in the club path-to-torso path relationship and not just where the left arm is in relationship to their right shoulder.

Ideally, for a reference point, a OP swinger will have their left arm (for a right handed golfer of course) at or below their right shoulder because that visual most easily SHOWS that the club path is in a similar orbit (pathway) as the torso path. What we as golfers need to do is pick a general swing type, and stop trying to make a bunch of "mini-me" disciples by insisting that there is only one swing type and one way of executing that swing type (when there are a number of ways to execute either an OP or TP swing). Even though there is more than one way to swing a golf club effectively, I do agree with Mr. Hardy's theory that they all fall into two general types, either OP or TP. Just some thoughts.
[/quote]


Totally agree with you. OP is where the torso and L arm path is more inline, TP is where they are not inline (which you have to merge somewhere later). Looking at it on top is not a perfect gauge whether one is OP or TP. A TP player with an overly short BS will look OP, while a OP player with an overly flexible body with a longer BS will look like TP if the only gauge is whether or not the L arm is inline with the shoulder line. Nice post.

But on another aspect, I am wondering for the need to do a TP swing. The only benefit of a TP swing is the vertical aspect helping the clubhead go down and hence faster clubhead speed because gravity is in play a lot. But this aspect of gravity helping is also attained in the OP swing because the shoulders is turning vertical.

The only thing I can see that will see the need to use TP instead of OP is if the golfer is EXTREMELY inflexible. But then again, if you are inflexible, you can just let your hips turn more, even in an equal amount as that of the shoulders by simply letting your L knee bend more and/or flare your R foot more, ain't it?
[/quote]

interesting points that you make. I think that the main reasons why people use a TP swing is that it was the dominant swing from the late 70's through to the early part of this decade, and that it works better for older people due to flexibility and power issues.