Putter making advice needed

[simple36]

Alright so I recently got a free trial of Alibre design software and decided to try my hand at making a few putters. I will post a few pictures of the 3d models I have designed. My brother and I would like to start making putters whether they be for ourselves or to sell. I have some questions for those more experienced.

• What software/design program do you use for making them and how do you like it?
  
• Do you use a mini mill or a bigger one?
  
• What is a common mill for putter making that is a decent price?
  
• How do you do the milling on the face in the design program? Is there a feature that you use for it or do you simply have to extrude each tiny part of it? It seems like the latter would take a considerable amount of work.
  
• I was recently reading a topic that said you should have a flange are when soling the club. Is this simply a flat spot on the bottom where the putter sits so that it sits flat and square? Where are these usually put on most putters.
  

Now lets get to the pictures, we are yet to decide on any writing or markings on the putters. But enough talk, lets get to the pics.

 

Model 1

 

D.G.M Putting Works Classics Collection #1 revision 1

 

 

 

D.G.M Putting Works Classics Collection #1 revision 7

Loft: 2.5* Lie 70* Weight: 355g

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Model 2

 

 

 

 

Thank you for any advice you have to offer.

[drumdude96]

The face milling isn't anything special. It's just a matter of getting the proper feeds and spindle speeds to create the desired surface finish. You may have to experiment on a scrap piece of material until you get things dialed in to your liking. Start with a somewhat slow spindle speed and feed it faster and faster until you get the roughness that you are looking for. I'd use a 1 1/2" 3 or 4 flute indexable cutter turning at about 250 rpm's to start with, and just play with the feed and rpm's until you get what you're looking for. You only need to make light cuts (.010"-.015") since it's just a finish pass. I'd say 250 rpm's and 20-30 inches per minute feed would be a good place to start. Don't worry about trying to draw the face finish, you can just specify on the drawing what you want. All it really is is a series of closely overlapping circles going across the face. And you definitely don't want to try making putters on a micro mill. You want a good machining center, or at the very least a CNC Bridgeport mill. Well, I gotta get to bed. Have fun with it!

[hebron1427]

nice idea. there's a lot of help in the "putter mods/micro artisans" subforum.

face milling isn't modeled into the software. in fact, no milling is. in the solid modeling world, you don't care how things are made. it's only in the real world that you worry about things like mill marks.

however, this design will be ungodly expensive to make. you absolutely must think about design for manufacture. every feature you have needs to be questioned with the idea of "how EXACTLY am i (or soemeone else) going to make this." the more difficult to make, the more costly. you have a lot of places that require changing the mill plane, a lot of tight corners that i dont see how you're going to be able to mill at all, and a chamfered edge that you simply cannot do by hand.

as far as "how in-depth do you go," it's all across the board. you have people like serge deschampes, who does full solid models and writes CNC programs for milling everything to within a few 10,000ths. then you have guys like lamont mann, who basically starts with a block of a steel and a sharpie and goes to work until it looks like what he thinks it should look like. your approach depends entirely on your style, your skill level, and what you hope to accomplish.

good luck.

[simple36]

Many of the edges that have chamfers or fillets were just to get the "look" I will most likely end up using a grinder to round many of the edges. I realize I have some complex designs and I should probably start simpler. The main idea of these was just to create a putter that looked like a putter my brother and I would really like and ultimately put in the bag. Most likely I will just be starting with a block and milling away till I get the look I want seeing as a mill is stretching my budget pretty well already.

[hebron1427]

just curious--what are your qualifications on this? engineering degree? part-time machinist? putter enthusiast? any advice given is going to depend on your current level of knowledge, so for people to help it's best for them to know where you're coming from.

[hebron1427]

as an aside, that face looks really thin. you may run into some ringing and clickiness with that. also, what's the weight? very important to get the weight where you want it.

[simple36]

I would not say I am an expert machinist but I am a machinist. I am 15 and have my own shop payed for entirely by myself. I have about $700 put into my shop already and I am mostly used to machining plastics. This is a whole new element for me. The face is 1/4" thick on both putters. I plan on going to the University of Minnesota to play golf and get a degree in mechanical engineering. I can't change the material that it is made out of to get weight calculated by the program but I could do it manually. If I take the volume of the first model which is 3.155168583 in³ and the density of carbon steels 1018 which is 0.283 lb/in^3. Using the formula Mass=Density X Volume we get a mass of .892912709 converted to grams is 405.018g. Seems on the heavy side to me. I will draw up another to get the weight between 340g-355g

*edited typo Weight should be between 340g-355g not 440g-455g

[emfish11]

You may be able to turn this into a side business. Please keep us posted on your progress, as im really interested.

[simple36]

[quote name='emfish11' timestamp='1345061539' post='5478122']
You may be able to turn this into a side business. Please keep us posted on your progress, as im really interested.
[/quote]
I will do that. The biggest thing now is getting the Mill. I have all the other tools I would need. Right now I am asking family members if they would be willing to pitch in and I would pay them back with any profit I might make. I would most likely be making more products than putters for a few of my other hobbies. My whole goal for this is to provide reasonably priced custom putters to people who otherwise could not afford them.

[whtblkdc2]

looks good, def gonna follow your progress.

[simple36]

Alright so it took a few modifications but I got the head weight down to 355.7g. It looks quite different now but I think it looks better. Let me know what you think.

DGM Putting Works Classics #1 Revision 4. This is a blade style putter.

[attachment=1307190:classics 2-4-1.png]

[attachment=1307192:classics 2-4-2.png]

[attachment=1307196:classics 2-4-4.png]

[attachment=1307198:classics 2-4-5.png]

3d perspective view with no edges. It is a real simple design and its nothing new but that is why we are calling it the Classics Collection.
[attachment=1307206:classics 2-4-8.png]

I appreciate any feedback on how it looks as well as what head weights you all like to have. Ideally we will offer a blade in each head weight. If you would like more pictures just let me know.

[TheDominator273]

I'm a fan of heavier weighted putters, so the one that I'll be using will be in the 400g range

[hebron1427]

you're doing very nicely. all of my feedback is merely suggestions of a guy with a little bit of knowledge.

 

however, i would factor into your calculus that there's no way to make the cavity as you have it. at least one corner has to be radiused because that is where the tool will go. you simply cannot mill it with flat corners the way you've designed it. look at this photo:

 

 

do you see how the bottom corners of the pocket are curved, not straight like in your model? this is because the mill has to come in from the back and mill out the cavity. if you try to reorient the mill, you will have these fillets on the vertical plane.

 

overall, you've done a beautiful job. it looks like you've accounted for both loft and sole draft, which is great. but your design for manufacture could be better. i wouldn't go that thin on the face, though. it might come out clicky and ringy if the face is too thin. and i would probably start with a stock weight of about 370g. this will give you the ability to customize the weight down. remember--you can always take more off, but putting it back on is pretty darn difficult.

[simple36]

you're doing very nicely. all of my feedback is merely suggestions of a guy with a little bit of knowledge.

 

however, i would factor into your calculus that there's no way to make the cavity as you have it. at least one corner has to be radiused because that is where the tool will go. you simply cannot mill it with flat corners the way you've designed it. look at this photo:

 

 

do you see how the bottom corners of the pocket are curved, not straight like in your model? this is because the mill has to come in from the back and mill out the cavity. if you try to reorient the mill, you will have these fillets on the vertical plane.

 

overall, you've done a beautiful job. it looks like you've accounted for both loft and sole draft, which is great. but your design for manufacture could be better. i wouldn't go that thin on the face, though. it might come out clicky and ringy if the face is too thin. and i would probably start with a stock weight of about 370g. this will give you the ability to customize the weight down. remember--you can always take more off, but putting it back on is pretty darn difficult.

I appreciate all the advice. I will make a few more models using that advice. Right now we are contacting a precision machining company about getting 5 or 6 prototypes made. I would like them to do face milling but I do not have it drawn up in the CAD files I sent them. Any way I could show them what I want? I was thinking just the traditional arc style milling.

[hebron1427]

you're doing very nicely. all of my feedback is merely suggestions of a guy with a little bit of knowledge.

 

however, i would factor into your calculus that there's no way to make the cavity as you have it. at least one corner has to be radiused because that is where the tool will go. you simply cannot mill it with flat corners the way you've designed it. look at this photo:

 

 

do you see how the bottom corners of the pocket are curved, not straight like in your model? this is because the mill has to come in from the back and mill out the cavity. if you try to reorient the mill, you will have these fillets on the vertical plane.

 

overall, you've done a beautiful job. it looks like you've accounted for both loft and sole draft, which is great. but your design for manufacture could be better. i wouldn't go that thin on the face, though. it might come out clicky and ringy if the face is too thin. and i would probably start with a stock weight of about 370g. this will give you the ability to customize the weight down. remember--you can always take more off, but putting it back on is pretty darn difficult.

I appreciate all the advice. I will make a few more models using that advice. Right now we are contacting a precision machining company about getting 5 or 6 prototypes made. I would like them to do face milling but I do not have it drawn up in the CAD files I sent them. Any way I could show them what I want? I was thinking just the traditional arc style milling.

 

face milling is a product of the size of the mill, the rotational speed, depth of the pass, and the feed speed. others here would be able to tell you how to spec out the pattern that you want. the rotational speed can't change that much, as there are certain speeds required to cut metal without breaking the tool. However, there is some play.

 

you might ask this shop to make a few passes on a steel blank with various feed speeds and whatnot to get an idea of what "deep milling" looks like versus "fine milling." you could also look up a few pictures of other putters and tell them what you want. it shouldn't change the overall dimensions, though.

 

i would still advise you to thicken the face a little. you can do it in the front, and don't need to redesign the whole thing just to make the face thicker. that is one place that many putter makers use to cut weight if they need to take a lot of weight off.

[simple36]

I will also be adding the curve in the pocket you talked about. Currently I have two different companies giving me quotes for 6 prototypes of this blade. Would you suggest like a 3/8" face then?

[simple36]

Alright I took your advice. Here are the pictures,

D.G.M Putting Works Classics Collection #1
70* lie angle, 2.5* loft 383g which will be milled/ground down to about 355g

[attachment=1307916:Classics 1-6-1.png]

[attachment=1307918:classics 1-6-2.png]

[attachment=1307920:classics 1-6-3.png]

[attachment=1307922:classics 1-6-4.png]

[attachment=1307924:classics 1-6-5.png]

[attachment=1307926:classics 1-6-7.png]

[hebron1427]

very nice. now you have a design that can be manufactured while retaining many of the design elements you were shooting for. i like that it's still your own style. there are a few things that my personal preference i'd like to see different, but that's all--just preference. you have to keep some of your own style in it to make it your own. i think this design balances very well the newness of your design with some of the practical concerns of designing a putter.

nice job

[hebron1427]

btw, where is the COG?

[simple36]

I am unsure how to calculate that and Alibre design won't tell me. Another thing is the weight is now 383g and I can grind a few parts down or mill out a few things.

[hebron1427]

that will be important, especially if you're putting a sight line on it. at least a horizontal demarcation of where it is would be helpful. my guess would be that it's probably heelside of center. the reason is that your toe weight pad appears to be the same size as your heel weight pad. but remember--the heel side also includes the weight of the hosel. it's not the most important thing in the world, but you generally want it around the impact point and pretty much in the center or you can end up with some torque issues.

[golfluvzme]

Make sure that you are doing it for the right reasons and that you don't mind eating macaroni and cheese, hot dogs and drinking store brand kool-aid. Putter making goes a great deal beyond just knowing how to connect lines and make a 3D drawing. Learn from as many that have gone before you as you possibly can and above all, HAVE AN INCOME BEFORE YOU GO ALL-IN that will carry your expenses while you chase your dream.
Best of luck,
LaMont in AZ

[TheDominator273]

[quote name='golfluvzme' timestamp='1345173847' post='5486686']
Make sure that you are doing it for the right reasons and that you don't mind eating macaroni and cheese, hot dogs and drinking store brand kool-aid. Putter making goes a great deal beyond just knowing how to connect lines and make a 3D drawing. Learn from as many that have gone before you as you possibly can and above all, HAVE AN INCOME BEFORE YOU GO ALL-IN that will carry your expenses while you chase your dream.
Best of luck,
LaMont in AZ
[/quote]
For now it's just something fun to do on the side for us. I'm an assistant pro at a course and also work at a Golf Galaxy and my brother is an unemployed sophemore in high school. If ends up being something we can sell great, if not its a fun project for two brothers to do together.

[simple36]

Alright Finally finished this Model 1 up. I have sent mechanical drawings to two different machine shops to get a price quote for 6 prototype heads in this model made. MOST likely we will be selling 5 of these prototypes and keeping one.

D.G.M Putting Works Classics Collection #1 revision 7
Loft: 2.5* Lie* 70* Weight: 355g

[attachment=1308214:classics 1-7-1.png]
[attachment=1308216:classics 1-7-2.png]
[attachment=1308218:classics 1-7-3.png]
[attachment=1308220:classics 1-7-4.png]

The first post has also been updated with these pictures. I would also still like to know what head styles and weights people prefer. Thank you to all those who have already given me such great feedback.

[simple36]

Alright so I found out center of Mass and CG are the same thing. So the program gave me this Center of Mass = [ -1.217375665E-1 in, 8.262472989E-2 in, 3.571228341E-1 in ] now the problem is I have no clue what that means. Is that good/bad/average? Also how do you make sure you get the Center of Mass in the correct spot when designing the club? Really confused hear so I think I just need someone to set me straight.

[drumdude96]

You need to radius any and all sharp edges with a corner rounding endmill where possible, and if I were you I would soften the corners where all the lines meet in the face-on view with at least a 1/16" radius. That will tie all the lines together and give your putter a more refined look. It will also keep people from being injured when handling the putter. Sounds silly, but as a tool and die guy I can tell you "anti-owie" measures are very important. You also need to draw in a radius where you have that sharp corner near where the hosel connects to the body of the putter (left of the hosel in the face-on view). A 1/8" radius is probably about as small as you want to go, so that that area can be machined with a 1/4" endmill. You can go smaller than that, but smaller cutters take longer to run=higher production costs. As far as the face milling, just take the machine shop a putter that has pretty much the surface roughness you want and they can duplicate that finish.

[tdeutmeyer]

What material are you going to use?

[simple36]

I will be using 1018 carbon steel for this model. So should I just add a 1/16" radius to all the edges?

[drumdude96]

[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1345244310' post='5491552']
I will be using 10118 carbon steel for this model. So should I just add a 1/16" radius to all the edges?
[/quote]

That sure wouldn't hurt anything. At least all the outside edges. Don't worry about the sharp corners around the back pocket where it is beveled. Just make sure to break the sharp edges after milling. To radius that you'd have to ramp it out in the CNC mill with a small ball-nosed endmill, so even more milling time. You can do it with a Dremel tool if you're confident you won't mess it up though. I think you will like how it looks after you draw it up with the radiused corners. Post the pics afterward so we can all see!

[simple36]

[quote name='drumdude96' timestamp='1345245395' post='5491648']
[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1345244310' post='5491552']
I will be using 10118 carbon steel for this model. So should I just add a 1/16" radius to all the edges?
[/quote]

That sure wouldn't hurt anything. At least all the outside edges. Don't worry about the sharp corners around the back pocket where it is beveled. Just make sure to break the sharp edges after milling. To radius that you'd have to ramp it out in the CNC mill with a small ball-nosed endmill, so even more milling time. You can do it with a Dremel tool if you're confident you won't mess it up though. I think you will like how it looks after you draw it up with the radiused corners. Post the pics afterward so we can all see!
[/quote]
I am extremely confident with a dremel and I have TONS of experience with it. I will post pics sometime next week as I don't feel like doing it now and I will be out of town till Wednesday.