Putter making advice needed

[simple36]

Rounded the edges a bit, I think it looks nice.

[hebron1427]

yes it does. very nice.

[simple36]

Getting a quote back any day now from the Machining company, just sent them the upgraded design.

[golfluvzme]

Keep refining and keep asking for input before you commit to any prototype work.
Dropping cash on prototypes from a CNC shop can get spendy.
Best of luck,
LaMont in AZ

[simple36]

After being out of town 8 of the last 9 days I got this drawn up. I appreciate all the advice I have already received. All feedback I can get from these drawings is helpful for future designs. Looks like this will be the model we are getting made unless someone notices a major flaw in the drawings or just something I missed.

Classics 1 Revision 8: I changed a few very very small details that you can't really see from rev 7 but this one has rounded edges which is the most noticeable difference.

[attachment=1321617:classics 1-8-1.png]
[attachment=1321619:classics 1-8-2.png]
[attachment=1321621:classics 1-8-3.png]
[attachment=1321623:classics 1-8-4.png]
[attachment=1321625:classics 1-8-5.png]

Any feedback is appreciated!

[golfluvzme]

I will throw out a few details that might be key.
1. Where is the sweet spot between heel and toe? Have you been able to figure out how to interpret the numbers and info given to you by the software? This will be very important to have located on the same line as the sight line and is easier to move now than to do after you have paid for six prototypes.
2. Are you having them milled all one piece? I love that method, if at all possible. The cost and material is considerably more, but if you can afford it and the shop can do it, go that way.
3. What finishes are you considering and have you gone that far in your process to find sources for that? Not life or death to do, right now, but good to have on your "To Do" list.
4. Engraving or hand stamping? There are guys who are on both sides and it is something to give thought to. Engraving is something most shops can do as they mill your putter heads and gives the putters a more production look.
5. No more, just wanted to throw out some things to help in your planning process.
Good Luck,
LaMont in AZ

[simple36]

I have not yet figured out how to interpret the numbers but anyone who is able to I would appreciate some input. I suppose I could work with the machine shop to find the COG and reposition it as necessary.

[drumdude96]

Get rid of that sharp corner between the hosel and that step near the top of the face. About the only way to machine that square is with a wire EDM, which will cost you BIG TIME! If you look at just about any other milled (or cast, for that matter) blade-style putter, you will see that they have a radiused corner there. Try drawing it with a 1/4" hole there and trim it to blend with all the other lines so that you have a nice rounded corner. Then the shop can just drill a hole there before milling all that material out, and that will save a lot of time. If 1/4" looks too big, try stepping down in 1/16" increments until it looks right. But remember, the smaller the cutter, the less material you can take off at a time, thus increasing cycle times and production costs. It may be necessary to move that step more toward the toe to get a 1/4" radius to fit, but that is a pretty minor change. You want it to look like there is half of a hole there, more or less. I would also do away with that funky notch in the hosel on the heel side near the top. That is a sharp corner of less than 90°, so again it will be more difficult and costly to machine.

[simple36]

Alright I can radius that corner. That notch isn't supposed to be there. The hosel is a separate part and will be welded on later. This is to save on machining costs for the prototypes and the others may be one large solid piece.

[drumdude96]

[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1346033383' post='5540221']
Alright I can radius that corner. That notch isn't supposed to be there. The hosel is a separate part and will be welded on later. This is to save on machining costs for the prototypes and the others may be one large solid piece.
[/quote]

Ah, gotcha. Well in that case, the notch is fine as it will be filled in with weld anyway. From a welding standpoint, it would be better to chamfer that notch at a 45° angle. It makes it easier to weld and you'll get better penetration and a nicer looking weld as well. The welder can fill the whole thing in with weld, and you can use a file or some other method to fine finish it. For something that intricate, I would definitely go with a TIG weld. TIG is purdy! Now go make some putters!

[simple36]

Alright I made it with the 45* angle.

[attachment=1323283:classics 8.1.png]
[attachment=1323285:classics 8.png]

[waterboy32]

[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1345182831' post='5487256']
Alright so I found out center of Mass and CG are the same thing. So the program gave me this Center of Mass = [ -1.217375665E-1 in, 8.262472989E-2 in, 3.571228341E-1 in ] now the problem is I have no clue what that means. Is that good/bad/average? Also how do you make sure you get the Center of Mass in the correct spot when designing the club? Really confused hear so I think I just need someone to set me straight.
[/quote]

Where does the CAD Software define your origin? It looks like it might be (x,y,z) coordinates to me, providing a distance from the origin to the CG...maybe just oversight on my part. In simpler numbers (x,y,z) = (-0.12", 0.083", 0.36").

[simple36]

The COG is up and left of the center of the putter face and almost at the back of the face of the putter. I am guessing I want to get this down and more towards the right along with towards the front of the face more. My question is where to I add weight to do this? Do I just need to experiment till I get it right?

[TheDominator273]

think of balancing it, in order to make the balance point more towards the heel, you have to add weight to the toe

[mgcfc]

I use a similar type program and have modeled putter heads on it. My program allows me to add a center of gravity which shows on the model exactly where the COG is. Your program may have the ability to do this. there is an icon on one of the toolbars called "check part", anything about COG in there?

[simple36]

Yeah Mine won't do that. Although I will be buying one hopefully in the near future as this was just a free one I got online.

[hebron1427]

[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1346184059' post='5550551']
The COG is up and left of the center of the putter face and almost at the back of the face of the putter. I am guessing I want to get this down and more towards the right along with towards the front of the face more. My question is where to I add weight to do this? Do I just need to experiment till I get it right?
[/quote]

left and right are hard to define. can you say it in toe and heel terminology?

[simple36]

To the toe and towards the top and almost at the back of the face. Also Looks like the prototypes are going to be a lot more expensive than we originally expected and $675 a piece. Looks like we won't have any till we get a mill.

[moocherpix]

Not a big surprise on the cost. Mill time is at a premium, right now and your project has some features that would increase both programming time and mill time.
Have you thought of emachineshop.com? Might be a more reasonable option for one or two putters. Might not, but worth a look.
Nick

[hebron1427]

did you ask about SLA prototyping?

[simple36]

Just Contacted them. I am sure I could find some other way to get a functioning prototype made cheaper so I will be looking into other options.

[Wooderson]

[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1346434922' post='5566625']
To the toe and towards the top and almost at the back of the face. Also Looks like the prototypes are going to be a lot more expensive than we originally expected and $675 a piece. Looks like we won't have any till we get a mill.
[/quote]

I see that the question of whats a good beginner mill is still unanswered. Anyone with some ideas. Can you spend less than 2000 on one?

[Stu-Co]

If you get a quote you like you should ask if cash would be cheaper!

[jaskanski]

Not knocking your project in any way, but it would be nice (for a change) to come up with something different than the usual Anser clone - the design has literally been milled to death. How about casting something into a mould? With an actual interesting design shape - for a change.

[drumdude96]

[quote name='Wooderson' timestamp='1346500127' post='5570153']
[quote name='simple36' timestamp='1346434922' post='5566625']
To the toe and towards the top and almost at the back of the face. Also Looks like the prototypes are going to be a lot more expensive than we originally expected and $675 a piece. Looks like we won't have any till we get a mill.
[/quote]

I see that the question of whats a good beginner mill is still unanswered. Anyone with some ideas. Can you spend less than 2000 on one?
[/quote]

If you can find one, a good used Bridgeport EZ Track would work great for prototyping. They made them in both two and three axis and they have a very easy to use conversational control. You can also run them manually, just like a regular milling machine, when you need to feel what you are doing. I ran Bridgeport EZ Track mills for about 10 years, along with their EZ Path lathes and EZ Surf surface grinders. Very good machine tools for the money. The software is a little quirky sometimes, but that goes for most CNC's. It's basically the same kind of mill Scotty Cameron does a lot of his work on, only with servos and a control. IT would work fine for limited production runs, as well.

[simple36]

Got a quote back today, $500 for two prototypes.

[hebron1427]

google "the practical machinist forums"

a lot more help from the technical machining side, and you can ask the question about the mills there with good info provided.

[moocherpix]

[quote name='drumdude96' timestamp='1346785181' post='5585675']
If you can find one, a good used Bridgeport EZ Track would work great for prototyping. It's basically the same kind of mill Scotty Cameron does a lot of his work on, only with servos and a control. IT would work fine for limited production runs, as well.
[/quote]

Does it make me a bad person if this comment made me laugh out loud? Scotty has not turned on a mill in years. Heck, by his own admission, he has not made a hand made putter since 1996. I am not saying that he CAN'T do it, just saying that he has not spent more than a handful of minutes on a machine in the past ten years.
Another option is a good sized mill/drill. You can find them on Craigslist from time to time for less than $1000 and although they are slower than a full sized mill, they will still cut steel and can be a good introduction to doing this sort of work, at a lower price point.
Sorry if you are Cameron guys and didn't realize that he is not the hands-on guy that some people think. But, I had to laugh when I read that line.
Have a good week,
Nick

[drumdude96]

[quote name='moocherpix' timestamp='1346796762' post='5586933']
[quote name='drumdude96' timestamp='1346785181' post='5585675']
If you can find one, a good used Bridgeport EZ Track would work great for prototyping. It's basically the same kind of mill Scotty Cameron does a lot of his work on, only with servos and a control. IT would work fine for limited production runs, as well.
[/quote]

Does it make me a bad person if this comment made me laugh out loud? Scotty has not turned on a mill in years. Heck, by his own admission, he has not made a hand made putter since 1996. I am not saying that he CAN'T do it, just saying that he has not spent more than a handful of minutes on a machine in the past ten years.
Another option is a good sized mill/drill. You can find them on Craigslist from time to time for less than $1000 and although they are slower than a full sized mill, they will still cut steel and can be a good introduction to doing this sort of work, at a lower price point.
Sorry if you are Cameron guys and didn't realize that he is not the hands-on guy that some people think. But, I had to laugh when I read that line.
Have a good week,
Nick
[/quote]


Okay, I guess I should have said like the mill in Scotty's shop, not the mill Scotty uses. I have to disagree on the mill/drill. Anything not CNC won't be worth buying for this kind of work. By the time you buy the necessary rotary tables and other specialty tools to allow the contouring work (and learn the skills needed to use them properly), it's just not worth messing with. Those kind of simple machine tools have their place, but not really in a prototyping shop of any kind. You have to have CNC to be competitive at all in this day and age.

[golfluvzme]

I'll bite on that one. I may be reading it wrong, but is the OP looking to be "competitive" or looking to learn about making putters? There is a difference, I totally agree. Having access to a full CNC facility is a HUGE advantage for making more than one of any sort of putter, but to tell someone that "anything not CNC won't be worth buying" is a little over the top, IMHO.
The amount of understanding and learning that would happen for him if he were to try his own hand on a manual mill, versus learning how to draw in a CAD program is not even measurable. One means will get him a putter that he only knows that he was able to draw and connect lines, the other will give him the knowledge that HE moved metal, HE created the shape, HE is the one that saw the shape in his mind and then was able to carve it from a billet of steel.
I think I mentioned earlier that a lot of this depends on WHY he wants to make putters. Both of us are correct, DrumDude, it just depends a lot on what the OP hopes to get out of this whole situation.
Please understand that I don't mean any of this in a derogatory way, just a different view from a point of having done it the hard way.
LaMont in AZ