Lefty Hogan

[dairic]

Hey folks, I thought I'd share with you my sh!ty swing which I've overhauled this last year based on information I've read here and over at ABS. This was in part inspired by tylerdurden who's always pushing everyone to post their swings so here's mine ;)

 

It's interesting because I've never filmed my swing before, so it's been amusing to see these results. I tend to look for a certain kind of feel rather than positions when I practice and play so filming myself has never been a priority...I may change that.

 

One of my decisions last year was to throw my hybrids in the garbage, so in this clip I'm hitting a 4i mizuno mp-53 that is 2-degrees flat with 300s dynamic gold shafts. Most of the time I play with mp-58 irons, but for some reason lately I like the feel of the 53s. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm now able to feel confident when hitting long irons! It's been a long time coming. The shot I hit flew just over 200 yards, and was a 10-20 yard pull damit!

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the genius level information that's been posted here. I feel like I'm on the right track, but realize that there's lots of work to be done for sure!!!

 

Also, feel free to tear this crap apart, because hopefully through your criticisms and feedback I'll learn something new.

 

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEOEzTzH0C0&feature=youtu.be[/media]

[JBOMB808]

Not bad. Thanks for sharing! From one fellow ABStriker, welcome!

If I may, I say the initial issues that jump out that attribute to that pull-miss or shots relating to it is most likely a combination of two things.

The first one is the loss of _spine angle_. Meaning you raise up through the shot.

Second one I'm speculating as to why you lose your spine but it appears you straighten your legs through the shot and lose your ground pressure(relation to the ground i.e. balance). You're turning your entire front foot on the shot which already spells inconsistent contact (i'm guessing). If I were you, I would try to work on staying grounded through the shot, meaning until you KNOW the ball is far gone BEFORE you raise up. Slow it down to help keep that front foot planted and tempo swing shots. Distance comes from good contact. Work on getting comfortable with a side view alignment. Maybe practice swing directly facing your target behind the ball, then take a good 90* degree step to the right and fire away. A good drill I just read, is to pick a target, take your address then close your eyes. Try to point at the target with your lead arm. Open your eyes and adjust to where you really were aiming. Be as specific as you can. Meaning you really have to picture where exactly you want the ball to go.

Oh btw, HANG ON to that rotational pivot. That's working nicely!

Long Irons ftw!!


Quick example of staying planted while still power rotating through,.,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXeJtcCKU-Y&feature=fvwrel

[tylerdurden]

Good work on posting. You're officially not a keyboard.

I can't comment on the swing because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But good for you for posting.

[dairic]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1345541852' post='5508260']
Not bad. Thanks for sharing! From one fellow ABStriker, welcome!

If I may, I say the initial issues that jump out that attribute to that pull-miss or shots relating to it is most likely a combination of two things.

The first one is the loss of _spine angle_. Meaning you raise up through the shot.

Second one I'm speculating as to why you lose your spine but it appears you straighten your legs through the shot and lose your ground pressure(relation to the ground i.e. balance). You're turning your entire front foot on the shot which already spells inconsistent contact (i'm guessing). If I were you, I would try to work on staying grounded through the shot, meaning until you KNOW the ball is far gone BEFORE you raise up. Slow it down to help keep that front foot planted and tempo swing shots. Distance comes from good contact. Work on getting comfortable with a side view alignment. Maybe practice swing directly facing your target behind the ball, then take a good 90* degree step to the right and fire away. A good drill I just read, is to pick a target, take your address then close your eyes. Try to point at the target with your lead arm. Open your eyes and adjust to where you really were aiming. Be as specific as you can. Meaning you really have to picture where exactly you want the ball to go.

Oh btw, HANG ON to that rotational pivot. That's working nicely!

Long Irons ftw!!


Quick example of staying planted while still power rotating through,.,
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXeJtcCKU-Y&feature=fvwrel[/media]
[/quote]

Many thanks JBOMB that's great insight. The first thing I also noticed was the loss of spine angle. Although I've never attributed this problem to ground pressure. I don't think I've ever given the idea of ground pressures enough credit for whatever reason. I see it in the greats like Norman, but have never spent any time discovering this aspect of my own swing. It think it's time to reconsider.

I use to have more of a jumpy swing that dumped everything at impact where I would definitely feel "down" and "up" loading in my legs, but with this more rotary type swing I seem to have lost ground connection. Correct me if I'm wrong but with this type of swing ground pressures should be more lateral correct?

Anyway...something to work on

btw...that dude is a beast!

[dairic]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345560380' post='5509320']
Good work on posting. You're officially not a keyboard.

I can't comment on the swing because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But good for you for posting.
[/quote]

It's good to know I'm not a keyboard!

You always asks good questions in the other threads, so I suspect that you must know more than you are leading me to believe

Great questions require great insight.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1345561461' post='5509418']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1345560380' post='5509320']
Good work on posting. You're officially not a keyboard.

I can't comment on the swing because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But good for you for posting.
[/quote]

It's good to know I'm not a keyboard!

You always asks good questions in the other threads, so I suspect that you must know more than you are leading me to believe

Great questions require great insight.
[/quote]

While studying economics, my professor once said something like "grad school is like being drunk in the fog - you don't know where you are going and everything is very hazy. Your brain is like mush. But as you progress, you sober up and begin to have a clearer understanding."

I can't remember exactly what it was but I know it was something like that. Really funny coming from a Harvard phd.

Anyway, I think the golf swing and my understanding of it is kinda like that. I have some ideas but I am pretty sure I'm in the fog. I'm trying to listen to the ball a lot more at this point because that usually gives me good answers.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1345561171' post='5509378']
Many thanks JBOMB that's great insight. The first thing I also noticed was the loss of spine angle. Although I've never attributed this problem to ground pressure. I don't think I've ever given the idea of ground pressures enough credit for whatever reason. I see it in the greats like Norman, but have never spent any time discovering this aspect of my own swing. It think it's time to reconsider.

I use to have more of a jumpy swing that dumped everything at impact where I would definitely feel "down" and "up" loading in my legs, but with this more rotary type swing I seem to have lost ground connection. Correct me if I'm wrong but with this type of swing ground pressures should be more lateral correct?

Anyway...something to work on

btw...that dude is a beast!
[/quote]

I never want to use the word lateral, but more of a reorientation of weight(lower spine).

Sevam1 demonstrates it well...
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=h2JWyPoZmnE[/media]
Ignore Elk's banter.

SF is a Hogan follower as well...
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12KHR1xr2SA[/media]

[JBOMB808]

Then of course the Master...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr7BnGtxxS8

[ej002]

Sevam has got it backwards. Even Elks has admitted that in the next segment...

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345572085' post='5510498']
Sevam has got it backwards. Even Elks has admitted that.
[/quote]

so you would recommend pre-torquing the back leg the other way? towards the target instead of away?

[ej002]

I think so, but IMO it can be misconstrued. In 5L Hogan shows the body with hightlight and talks about torques or braced muscles in the legs. Look at those and make your own determinations based on what I say and what Sevam says. Hogan advocates a bent knee throughout the swing, we can all agree on that. I may misunderstand Sevam, but if you are torquing the full leg outwards, my thinking is that it would advocate a straightening of the leg. If you watch Sevam, his right leg is different than Hogan. He sways waaay over the right side and comes back. Hogan goes lateral alright, but he never shifts to his right, his weight goes back behind him and he falls left and rotates hard. Sevam also gets way more in - to - out, shifts laterally out to right field, and then runs into his left leg (literally - he calls it running into a post) and his body stalls and he fips it over - basically like Moe. Hogan does non of that. Big difference in his leg work and Hogan's.

I personally think that the right hip torques inward, and you can jam the lower leg with a kicked in knee into the right heel and instep. I guess you can counter your lower right leg to press outwards and have the weight on the ball of the right foot, but having upper and lower leg do two differen things is weird. If you do it my way, then there is no possible way to sway and you can keep the weight on the instep on the way back. You really get a "braced leg" that way. So I guess the best way to describe what I am saying is torqued toward the target and jammed into the ground. I can't really explain it differently.

The next segment of the posted video shows Martinez saying the exact opposit of Sevam and Elk basically agreeing with the foot pressure Martin was talking about at the 4:12 mark. I also think all this this falls in line with Slicefixer's kicked in right knee / reverse K (don't over do it). And also it is in line with the famous drill to hit balls with a ball under the outsep of your right foot. JMO of couse, as always...

EDIT: FWIW - I am not a fan of Elks swing at all, but just saying he even disagrees with Sevam in this video.

[JBOMB808]

Agree with ej about the torquing, it is a 'feel' between each individual player and his or her base of movement. For your swing though dairic, the idea to take from those videos though is how they shift into their lead side, and how long they maintain their spine angle through the shot. To me, your backswing already appears steady and controlled. Your front foot and knee are the key points for you. Maybe flare it open a little bit to help rotate through the shot, but try to imagine your right foot is in a vice and you have a string tied to your right knee that's connected to the ball. If you straighten your right knee (too much), the ball gets pulled out of the alignment you had it in. How you end the swing is just as important as how you start it. In balance and with hardly any weight on your back foot sort of like it's just hanging. Hope that helps~ Report back on your progress.

[dairic]

ej what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I dusted off my copy of 5 Lessons, and the anatomical drawing shows the inside leg muscles are engaged and the next page has an instruction for the knees pointed in. It seems reasonable to assume that, at setup at least, torquing is inward and rather than outward.

JBOMB, I will report on my progress and thank you again for the information. Now that I look at Knudson (5'10") or Nelson(6'1") who are closer to my height (5'11"), I can't help but notice the increase in knee flex during transition. I think I'll start there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VbzdoK4HvA&list=FLP6z1EPZes4jMLYvuS2Z7hw&index=4&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlJ6ydWVeU&list=FLP6z1EPZes4jMLYvuS2Z7hw&index=8&feature=plpp_video

cheers,

[drewspin]

Looks good.

Your head appears to sway slightly toward the balls of your feet as you near the top of the backswing, then you pull it back (showing with the right foot lateral twist coming through).

Fix that upper center stability and work on the the ground forces mods as said above. Do not upper sway as the right knee breaks in and back out.

Might try feeling the left knee preset inside the left ankle at set up with down pressure on the [u]inside [/u]of the left foot..

Also, my guess is that you are left-eye dominant... is that correct?

[dairic]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345591051' post='5512278']
Looks good.

Your head appears to sway slightly toward the balls of your feet as you near the top of the backswing, then you pull it back (showing with the right foot lateral twist coming through).

Fix that upper center stability and work on the the ground forces mods as said above. Do not upper sway as the right knee breaks in and back out.

Might try feeling the left knee preset inside the left ankle at set up with down pressure on the [u]inside [/u]of the left foot..

Also, my guess is that you are left-eye dominant... is that correct?
[/quote]

Thanks drew spin,

I'm not sure if I'm left eye dominant. I'm right handed but play sports with a stick left handed like Mickelson. Does that make me left eye dominant? Also what is the consequence of this?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345574147' post='5510740']
I think so, but IMO it can be misconstrued. In 5L Hogan shows the body with hightlight and talks about torques or braced muscles in the legs. Look at those and make your own determinations based on what I say and what Sevam says. Hogan advocates a bent knee throughout the swing, we can all agree on that. I may misunderstand Sevam, but if you are torquing the full leg outwards, my thinking is that it would advocate a straightening of the leg. If you watch Sevam, his right leg is different than Hogan. He sways waaay over the right side and comes back. Hogan goes lateral alright, but he never shifts to his right, his weight goes back behind him and he falls left and rotates hard. Sevam also gets way more in - to - out, shifts laterally out to right field, and then runs into his left leg (literally - he calls it running into a post) and his body stalls and he fips it over - basically like Moe. Hogan does non of that. Big difference in his leg work and Hogan's.

I personally think that the right hip torques inward, and you can jam the lower leg with a kicked in knee into the right heel and instep. I guess you can counter your lower right leg to press outwards and have the weight on the ball of the right foot, but having upper and lower leg do two differen things is weird. If you do it my way, then there is no possible way to sway and you can keep the weight on the instep on the way back. You really get a "braced leg" that way. So I guess the best way to describe what I am saying is torqued toward the target and jammed into the ground. I can't really explain it differently.

The next segment of the posted video shows Martinez saying the exact opposit of Sevam and Elk basically agreeing with the foot pressure Martin was talking about at the 4:12 mark. I also think all this this falls in line with Slicefixer's kicked in right knee / reverse K (don't over do it). And also it is in line with the famous drill to hit balls with a ball under the outsep of your right foot. JMO of couse, as always...

EDIT: FWIW - I am not a fan of Elks swing at all, but just saying he even disagrees with Sevam in this video.
[/quote]

I think a better and simpler way to do this is just turn the R lower leg bones CCW. Eversion or pronation is the technical anatomical description/term. It gets the weight inside of the R foot, kicks in the R knee a bit, prevents swaying away from the target, makes the R hip go back, in short it makes you retain the angle in the R leg. Also, when you fire the hips that I'm so into, it will automatically move laterally as well even if you just think turn the hips.

Why is your L (Lead) leg/foot turning at impact/follow-thru? You have a leg/knee problem? What are your thoughts/feels on DS to make you do this?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345591051' post='5512278']
Looks good.

Your head appears to sway slightly toward the balls of your feet as you near the top of the backswing, then you pull it back (showing with the right foot lateral twist coming through).

Fix that upper center stability and work on the the ground forces mods as said above. Do not upper sway as the right knee breaks in and back out.

Might try feeling the left knee preset inside the left ankle at set up with down pressure on the [u]inside [/u]of the left foot..

Also, my guess is that you are left-eye dominant... is that correct?
[/quote]

Swaying the head towards the balls of his feet meaning he is moving down his head towards the target line?

[drewspin]

Google eye dominance test and you can find several simple ones.

Consequence is that you may instinctively want to turn your head more to focus on the ball with the dominant eye, and if it is your trailing eye, you may do a little swivel of the head to maintain focus out of the dominant eye.

Bunch of other consequences for aiming and set up while putting.

Also, if you are lead eye-dominant you see shaft lean and hand position differently than if you are trailing-eye dominant.

In shooting sports, eye dominance is critical to which hand you shoot with because you want the dominant eye down the barrel.

[drewspin]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345599140' post='5513060']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345591051' post='5512278']
Looks good.

Your head appears to sway slightly toward the balls of your feet as you near the top of the backswing, then you pull it back (showing with the right foot lateral twist coming through).

Fix that upper center stability and work on the the ground forces mods as said above. Do not upper sway as the right knee breaks in and back out.

Might try feeling the left knee preset inside the left ankle at set up with down pressure on the [u]inside [/u]of the left foot..

Also, my guess is that you are left-eye dominant... is that correct?
[/quote]

Swaying the head towards the balls of his feet meaning he is moving down his head towards the target line?
[/quote]

Meant to say his head sways out toward the target line bringing his weight more forward toward the toes. His weight appears to go from fairly neutral heels/balls toward the balls of his feet caused by the loss of stability in the upper center moving toward his target line. He loses the tush line too.

[ALIF]

HG101, when you talk about turning the shoulders more vertically, do you mean like the action demonstrated by Byron Nelson in that video posted above?

[dairic]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345599457' post='5513100']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345599140' post='5513060']
Swaying the head towards the balls of his feet meaning he is moving down his head towards the target line?
[/quote]

Meant to say his head sways out toward the target line bringing his weight more forward toward the toes. His weight appears to go from fairly neutral heels/balls toward the balls of his feet caused by the loss of stability in the upper center moving toward his target line. He loses the tush line too.
[/quote]

I put a lot of attention in ensuring my back leg and hip don't sway, but I've never given a thought to upper body sway. It's possible that instead of rotating my upper body around the upper spine just behind the neck, the centre of rotation is a bit closer to my trailling shoulder causing an un-symetrical shoulder turn thus the head moving towards the ball and down? This may cause a chain of events that I don't fully recover from in the downswing causing the loss of spine angle etc...very interesting. I'll investigate and report back.

btw based on an eye dominance test I found online, it turns out I'm left-eye or [color=#282828]trailing-eye [/color]dominant. Again...something I've never thought about!

Thanks for all the feedback everyone...you've given me a lot to think about!

[dairic]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345599010' post='5513044']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1345574147' post='5510740']
I think so, but IMO it can be misconstrued. In 5L Hogan shows the body with hightlight and talks about torques or braced muscles in the legs. Look at those and make your own determinations based on what I say and what Sevam says. Hogan advocates a bent knee throughout the swing, we can all agree on that. I may misunderstand Sevam, but if you are torquing the full leg outwards, my thinking is that it would advocate a straightening of the leg. If you watch Sevam, his right leg is different than Hogan. He sways waaay over the right side and comes back. Hogan goes lateral alright, but he never shifts to his right, his weight goes back behind him and he falls left and rotates hard. Sevam also gets way more in - to - out, shifts laterally out to right field, and then runs into his left leg (literally - he calls it running into a post) and his body stalls and he fips it over - basically like Moe. Hogan does non of that. Big difference in his leg work and Hogan's.

I personally think that the right hip torques inward, and you can jam the lower leg with a kicked in knee into the right heel and instep. I guess you can counter your lower right leg to press outwards and have the weight on the ball of the right foot, but having upper and lower leg do two differen things is weird. If you do it my way, then there is no possible way to sway and you can keep the weight on the instep on the way back. You really get a "braced leg" that way. So I guess the best way to describe what I am saying is torqued toward the target and jammed into the ground. I can't really explain it differently.

The next segment of the posted video shows Martinez saying the exact opposit of Sevam and Elk basically agreeing with the foot pressure Martin was talking about at the 4:12 mark. I also think all this this falls in line with Slicefixer's kicked in right knee / reverse K (don't over do it). And also it is in line with the famous drill to hit balls with a ball under the outsep of your right foot. JMO of couse, as always...

EDIT: FWIW - I am not a fan of Elks swing at all, but just saying he even disagrees with Sevam in this video.
[/quote]

I think a better and simpler way to do this is just turn the R lower leg bones CCW. Eversion or pronation is the technical anatomical description/term. It gets the weight inside of the R foot, kicks in the R knee a bit, prevents swaying away from the target, makes the R hip go back, in short it makes you retain the angle in the R leg. Also, when you fire the hips that I'm so into, it will automatically move laterally as well even if you just think turn the hips.

Why is your L (Lead) leg/foot turning at impact/follow-thru? You have a leg/knee problem? What are your thoughts/feels on DS to make you do this?
[/quote]

No knee or leg problems...just crap shoes with no traction. Although, JBOMB demonstrated that he could pulverize a ball in flip flops so I guess I can't use my shoes as an excuse

Common down swing thoughts usually involve keeping my arms connected in front of my body, lead arm straight through impact, my lead pit packed in tight which for me promotes an aggressive shoulder turn that doesn't stop until I reach the top of my follow through. When I feel like I've been successful with my back swing I feel right on top of the ball and all I need to do rotate like a MOFO to get to impact. Not much thought given to the legs to be honest. What happens down there is completely involuntary lol.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345599457' post='5513100']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1345599140' post='5513060']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1345591051' post='5512278']
Looks good.

Your head appears to sway slightly toward the balls of your feet as you near the top of the backswing, then you pull it back (showing with the right foot lateral twist coming through).

Fix that upper center stability and work on the the ground forces mods as said above. Do not upper sway as the right knee breaks in and back out.

Might try feeling the left knee preset inside the left ankle at set up with down pressure on the [u]inside [/u]of the left foot..

Also, my guess is that you are left-eye dominant... is that correct?
[/quote]

Swaying the head towards the balls of his feet meaning he is moving down his head towards the target line?
[/quote]

Meant to say his head sways out toward the target line bringing his weight more forward toward the toes. His weight appears to go from fairly neutral heels/balls toward the balls of his feet caused by the loss of stability in the upper center moving toward his target line. He loses the tush line too.
[/quote]

I see.

Didn't see Dairic's face-on, but I think the problem may be his lower body ain't initiating in transition. With his upper body more bent down (not saying that is incorrect), when he fires the shoulders that causes him to fall forward towards the targetline. So I'd suggest he learn to use his hips in more lateral manner (read Dairic's post above, yeah hes not initiating with lower body), and suggest more weight in heels if he's not doing it already. Avoid getting the pelvis/hips forward towards the targetline. More lateral together with hip turn. Though I suggest concentrate at first on L side extension and R side bend.