The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1426795658' post='11174995']
[i]The ASI realization is excellent for curing arm slinging manipulations, hit impulses and lots of stuff that make inconsistent, um... amatuerish . . . golf swings. Making it work without feeling weird and 'choppy' or OTT requires getting the transition, pivot and spine tilting correct. Pay a lot of attention to those things in front of a mirror, while you look at how your triangle is affected . . . and you'll eventually 'see' that your swing is a blended combo of vertical, horizontal and width dimensions. When your subconscious accepts that, you'll be amazed at how easy it is to hit a good golf shot[/i].


Your last paragraph is very well said! Especially the part about blending the three dimensions. One of the really important ramifications of a true understanding of the ASI concept, is how essential the pivot truly is to an effective swing. Most amateurs spend a lot of time, energy and effort trying to figure out how to use an upper arm dominant motion as the Primary Mover in their swings, and because of that mistake, neglect to ever learn how to pivot properly.


Thanks Jim! I'm slack-jawed at the amount of detail you provide about transition, pivot and various releases in the Great Shot! manual. I have an Endo golf buddy who has been struggling for 3 years to find some kind of transition and pivot. Amazing how he can't find an instructor (and he's seen many) who can/will teach him. Just wave the arms like this . . . . LOL. More free beer for me!

As a teacher you already know . . . there's a theory that people fall into two categories when it comes to initially perceiving the golf swing. Up and Downers, and Arounders. I'm an Arounder (and an Ecto-ish Mesomorphic, unsurprisingly). Do you find that Up and Downers 'get' the ASI concept more easily than Arounders?

Another oddball question: I play in Seattle. We see Asian golfers here, some are residents, some are tourists . . . I've noticed there's a predominant "Asian style" to their amateur golf swings . . . and it involves an obvious rising/falling arm-triangle motion. Some overdo it and 'slash' . . . some blend it with a pivot and play well. You spend time in Hawaii, so you see Asian golfers . . . am I crazy? Is there an Asian Style . . . and if you think so, is there some school of thought in Japan or somewhere that's the cause of it?
[/quote]

Your Endo buddy should know that because of inherent lack of flexibility, he will need a much shorter Top of backswing position, and thus a faster wrist set, and faster Tempo overall, and especially a faster Transition move, including Tilt Switch. Sometimes just explaining this to struggling Endos I work with helps them to quickly achieve much better ballstriking results. Nothing worse for an Endo than a "long and slow" swing!

Yes - folks who are naturally more "up and down" tend to get the ASI concept more quickly, but there issue tends to be that they don't pivot to enough range of motion, which is a really essential part of the swing model I teach.

No, I have not noticed any common swing aspects of Asian students I have worked with. I think the influence of teaching "styles" or "schools" is much over-rated. South Korea has had the most influence over the LPGA pros obviously, which is the same as my Leveraged Spin Style, but I don't think that influence has had any observable effect on the masses of amateur golfers at this point.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426827116' post='11178049']
Jim,

I do not know if this in keeping with swing illusion, but seems to certainly feel that way.

Namely, I have always struggled with a flat backswing, which also feels extremely restricted, e.g., I never approach parallel at the top. I suspect this contributes to my tendency to come OTT.

I was reading an article recently where the teaching professional described anything behind the toe line as the 'sacred burial ground.' As such, he indicated the hands go back to toe line then straight up.

I gave this a try and it felt both very 'outward,' yet unrestricted. My left arm didn't get draped across my chest. It FELT like my arms were so far in front of me that I could only possibly swing In to out; as though my hands were over the target line.

In fact, instead of coming down OTT and out to in, it almost forced me to drop inside.

I am curious if this is a strategy you would recommend (utilize) for students with flat, restricted backswings who tend to come OTT/out to in? It is completely counterintuitive, and FEELS like I am not swinging back, rather, out.

Thank you Jim.
[/quote]

No, I don't recommend that concept, it will tend to create a too steep shaft plane angle and restrict pivot rpm speed. Your shaft should be a bit behind the heel line at the Top. Nowhere near the toe line. ASI info is all about being in the proper "slot" or arm to torso/shoulder girdle geometry, and too close to mid-line can be just as destructive to good golf shots as too far away from mid-line.

I fix the too inside/flat backswing by showing the student the ASI stuff and working on the on-plane takeaway first and then if needed, the second half of backswing to the Top.

[FatReed]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1426960276' post='11186397']
[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426827116' post='11178049']
Jim,

I do not know if this in keeping with swing illusion, but seems to certainly feel that way.

Namely, I have always struggled with a flat backswing, which also feels extremely restricted, e.g., I never approach parallel at the top. I suspect this contributes to my tendency to come OTT.

I was reading an article recently where the teaching professional described anything behind the toe line as the 'sacred burial ground.' As such, he indicated the hands go back to toe line then straight up.

I gave this a try and it felt both very 'outward,' yet unrestricted. My left arm didn't get draped across my chest. It FELT like my arms were so far in front of me that I could only possibly swing In to out; as though my hands were over the target line.

In fact, instead of coming down OTT and out to in, it almost forced me to drop inside.

I am curious if this is a strategy you would recommend (utilize) for students with flat, restricted backswings who tend to come OTT/out to in? It is completely counterintuitive, and FEELS like I am not swinging back, rather, out.

Thank you Jim.
[/quote]

No, I don't recommend that concept, it will tend to create a too steep shaft plane angle and restrict pivot rpm speed. Your shaft should be a bit behind the heel line at the Top. Nowhere near the toe line. ASI info is all about being in the proper "slot" or arm to torso/shoulder girdle geometry, and too close to mid-line can be just as destructive to good golf shots as too far away from mid-line.

I fix the too inside/flat backswing by showing the student the ASI stuff and working on the on-plane takeaway first and then if needed, the second half of backswing to the Top.
[/quote]

Thank you Jim.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426908774' post='11184011']
Hmmmm. . . looks familiar

[media=]http://youtu.be/TJPbjp_IBvw[/media]
[/quote]

He has the basic Big Picture concept right, but is missing out on some of the important details. The part about the arms moving "ten times faster" than the body is not correct, and probably not even very useful, so not sure why he thinks that is important to mention. It's a common false conclusion reached by folks who do not understand the Lever Illusion. Although in this case he never states which dimension he is referring to, so even more imprecise. You hear this a lot about how the "hands have to start first since they have a greater distance to travel". That kind of thinking leads to even more conflict between arms and body, in my experience.

Lever Illusion means that when describing a lever moving in an arc, a tiny movement in space at the axis of rotation creates a much larger motion in space at the end of the lever. This is one of the underlying root causes for the Hit Impulse.

His demo has the arms moving too much in the vertical dimension and not enough to right of mid-line,ie too steep. And his demo of how ASI sufferers view the "around the body sideways" motion is also way too vertical, in my opinion. When I ask the average mid to high handicap student how he or she views the arm motion, when they zero out the pivot, they move the arms sideways and deeply around the torso, not up and down at all.

And the arms don't get back into P6 or Halfway down position because you let them "fall" - your Pivot is actively engaged in bringing those arms down into that point in the swing, ie arms moving dependently down, out and around from the Pivot. The idea that the arms must "fall" is another false conclusion created by the ASI. By "pivot" I mean primarily the tilting and un-coiling of your shoulder girdle.

[FatReed]

I am wondering if your students who, with no pivot, wrap their arms around the body FEEL they are moving the club vertically (as in video) when you first start working with them? I SUSPECT such a feel will strike a balance somewhere in between, resulting in the appropriate degree of 'right of midline?"

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426961670' post='11186479']
I am wondering if your students who, with no pivot, wrap their arms around the body FEEL they are moving the club vertically (as in video) when you first start working with them? I SUSPECT such a feel will strike a balance somewhere in between, resulting in the appropriate degree of 'right of midline?"
[/quote]

Yes, for sure, they start to "feel" a much more vertical arm and shaft motion, and that is partly because it is indeed more vertical.

But there is also the "feel aint real" thing, although I always say, "sometimes feel is real, and that should be your end goal of making a swing change" and "feel is a helluva lot more real than thought" (at least potentially!).

One thing that is often (I am understating it by using the word"often") mis-understood on this and other golf forums, is that there exists in the world of actual live golf instruction a very common and usually quite effective protocol called "exaggeration drills" or "exagerrated intention", which means sometimes I and every other teacher on the planet will recommend a hugely exaggerated motion in the very early stages of making a swing change. It is a kind of "shock therapy" to wake up the subconscious mind Swing Map as to what the current flawed motion is and how to start to move away from that flaw in a line closer to the model.

The ideal or model swing theory and an exaggerated intention are conflated on this forum every single day and in probably 75% of the threads regarding swing changes. It explains a lot of the heat and not much light in some of the debates here.

I think the golf teacher Hippocratic oath should have a section about always clearly distinguishing between the model and an exaggeration.

So, yes - when I get the average way stuck inside on the takeaway golfer to get into a 45 degree angle at the Top with a wedge in their hand, and some space between their right elbow and their ribcage, they "feel" like their arms are straight in front of their torso mid-line. Which is why it takes a lot of practice reps to get over that feel illusion!

[FatReed]

Yes, agreed. I will never know, but wonder if the instructor referenced and video presented have gone exaggerated to achieve model - but failed the Hippocratic oath part :-)

Thanks again

[IndyPhil]

Just had to say I have been reading this thread for the last few months and played today for the first time. After working on what I have read here and seeing the results I cant wait for your new video's to come out. Having a practice program to break my bad habits and install your instruction in my swing will be fantastic. I am very much looking forward to it.

[OrangeGravy]

Hi Jim,

Great thread. You to too Kiwi! Do you have any suggestions or adjustments in general to the golf swing for someone who has pretty severe lower back disc issues?

[i*windows]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1426961129' post='11186435']
[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426908774' post='11184011']
Hmmmm. . . looks familiar

[media=]http://youtu.be/TJPbjp_IBvw[/media]
[/quote]

He has the basic Big Picture concept right, but is missing out on some of the important details. The part about the arms moving "ten times faster" than the body is not correct, and probably not even very useful, so not sure why he thinks that is important to mention. It's a common false conclusion reached by folks who do not understand the Lever Illusion. Although in this case he never states which dimension he is referring to, so even more imprecise. You hear this a lot about how the "hands have to start first since they have a greater distance to travel". That kind of thinking leads to even more conflict between arms and body, in my experience.

Lever Illusion means that when describing a lever moving in an arc, a tiny movement in space at the axis of rotation creates a much larger motion in space at the end of the lever. This is one of the underlying root causes for the Hit Impulse.

His demo has the arms moving too much in the vertical dimension and not enough to right of mid-line,ie too steep. And his demo of how ASI sufferers view the "around the body sideways" motion is also way too vertical, in my opinion. When I ask the average mid to high handicap student how he or she views the arm motion, when they zero out the pivot, they move the arms sideways and deeply around the torso, not up and down at all.

And the arms don't get back into P6 or Halfway down position because you let them "fall" - your Pivot is actively engaged in bringing those arms down into that point in the swing, ie arms moving dependently down, out and around from the Pivot. The idea that the arms must "fall" is another false conclusion created by the ASI. By "pivot" I mean primarily the tilting and un-coiling of your shoulder girdle.
[/quote]
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1426918619' post='11184629']
[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426908774' post='11184011']
Hmmmm. . . looks familiar

[media=]http://youtu.be/TJPbjp_IBvw[/media]
[/quote]

Interesting

I have just looked at Jonathan's site [url="http://www.the-move.de/"]http://www.the-move.de/[/url] Guess he must be an English Pro teaching in Germany.

He has some other videos on the site not on Youtube, but in German only.

Might get in touch with him as I live in the UK and I was planning to go to Germany this year to see some friends. for a break.
[/quote]

I know John he is the head pro at Harthausen near Munich which is the club where I practice! He doesn't follow the philosophy shown in the video any more and teaches a more body driven swing now, which I think you can see from his latest videos on Youtube (most are in English and German)

[4pillars]

[quote name='i*windows' timestamp='1427378031' post='11219521']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1426961129' post='11186435']
[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426908774' post='11184011']
Hmmmm. . . looks familiar

[media=]http://youtu.be/TJPbjp_IBvw[/media]
[/quote]

He has the basic Big Picture concept right, but is missing out on some of the important details. The part about the arms moving "ten times faster" than the body is not correct, and probably not even very useful, so not sure why he thinks that is important to mention. It's a common false conclusion reached by folks who do not understand the Lever Illusion. Although in this case he never states which dimension he is referring to, so even more imprecise. You hear this a lot about how the "hands have to start first since they have a greater distance to travel". That kind of thinking leads to even more conflict between arms and body, in my experience.

Lever Illusion means that when describing a lever moving in an arc, a tiny movement in space at the axis of rotation creates a much larger motion in space at the end of the lever. This is one of the underlying root causes for the Hit Impulse.

His demo has the arms moving too much in the vertical dimension and not enough to right of mid-line,ie too steep. And his demo of how ASI sufferers view the "around the body sideways" motion is also way too vertical, in my opinion. When I ask the average mid to high handicap student how he or she views the arm motion, when they zero out the pivot, they move the arms sideways and deeply around the torso, not up and down at all.

And the arms don't get back into P6 or Halfway down position because you let them "fall" - your Pivot is actively engaged in bringing those arms down into that point in the swing, ie arms moving dependently down, out and around from the Pivot. The idea that the arms must "fall" is another false conclusion created by the ASI. By "pivot" I mean primarily the tilting and un-coiling of your shoulder girdle.
[/quote]
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1426918619' post='11184629']
[quote name='FatReed' timestamp='1426908774' post='11184011']
Hmmmm. . . looks familiar

[media=]http://youtu.be/TJPbjp_IBvw[/media]
[/quote]

Interesting

I have just looked at Jonathan's site [url="http://www.the-move.de/"]http://www.the-move.de/[/url] Guess he must be an English Pro teaching in Germany.

He has some other videos on the site not on Youtube, but in German only.

Might get in touch with him as I live in the UK and I was planning to go to Germany this year to see some friends. for a break.
[/quote]

I know John he is the head pro at Harthausen near Munich which is the club where I practice! He doesn't follow the philosophy shown in the video any more and teaches a more body driven swing now, which I think you can see from his latest videos on Youtube (most are in English and German)
[/quote]

That's a bummer the DVD arrived today.

[i*windows]

Still a good video, he just works to a different method these days

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='IndyPhil' timestamp='1427335813' post='11217387']
Just had to say I have been reading this thread for the last few months and played today for the first time. After working on what I have read here and seeing the results I cant wait for your new video's to come out. Having a practice program to break my bad habits and install your instruction in my swing will be fantastic. I am very much looking forward to it.
[/quote]

Thanks for your feedback! Always good to hear that folks are seeing some benefit from some of the concepts in this thread.

Yes - regular daily practice is truly required to break the spell of the old bad habits and imprint the new, correct motion to the level of dominant habit. And the cool part it - no ball is required. Slow motion and half speed practice at home is the recipe.

I watched Goosen on TGC yesterday talking about how he did a ton of mirror practice at home as a junior and how much it helped him to create an effective golf swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='OrangeGravy' timestamp='1427342269' post='11217997']
Hi Jim,

Great thread. You to too Kiwi! Do you have any suggestions or adjustments in general to the golf swing for someone who has pretty severe lower back disc issues?
[/quote]

The most important thing is to get an accurate diagnosis from your doctor since there are several types of low back/disc issues that can occur that cause pain and/or stiffness that can affect one's golf swing.

Daily stretching and core strengthening exercises are essential, especially for senior golfers or anyone with back issues. The obvious mechanical adjustments are to reduce strain on lower back by using a larger hip turn, allow the left heel to lift a little on the backswing, and come up out of Spine Angle earlier than the model post-impact to reduce torque on the low back.

[OrangeGravy]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1427405865' post='11222915']
[quote name='OrangeGravy' timestamp='1427342269' post='11217997']
Hi Jim,

Great thread. You to too Kiwi! Do you have any suggestions or adjustments in general to the golf swing for someone who has pretty severe lower back disc issues?
[/quote]

The most important thing is to get an accurate diagnosis from your doctor since there are several types of low back/disc issues that can occur that cause pain and/or stiffness that can affect one's golf swing.

Daily stretching and core strengthening exercises are essential, especially for senior golfers or anyone with back issues. The obvious mechanical adjustments are to reduce strain on lower back by using a larger hip turn, allow the left heel to lift a little on the backswing, and come up out of Spine Angle earlier than the model post-impact to reduce torque on the low back.
[/quote]


Much appreciated.

[whiteretro]

Jim

1st - Many thanks for taking the time and effort for continued interaction in this thread

The information provided has been eye opening

I attended the world golf fitness expo last fall

The session on kinematic sequencing classified the swing characteristics of approx 150 pros

In these pros, approx 97-98% begin the backswing with the torso

also, 95-96% have lowering of the pelvis at the conclusion of the backswing

The pelvic lowering is accomplished by one of 2 ways - gradual lowering during the backswing or a squatting motion( think Sam Snead) at the end of the backswing

I was having some problems with your backswing principles when I realized I was not lowering my pelvis during the backswing

Once I started my pelvic lowering , my arms immediately went a little outside the line and I found myself at excellent position at the conclusion of the backswing

I then started my downswing with the torso and let the whip unwind

the result - best ball striking of my life

would you please comment on the effect of pelvic lowering during the backswing on your swing methodology?

[PJ1120]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1426788348' post='11174217']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1426537134' post='11155025']
[quote name='Mcaesq' timestamp='1426533913' post='11154679']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1426527020' post='11153853']
[quote name='Mcaesq' timestamp='1426263002' post='11136181']
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks. I thought I "got" what you were saying earlier, but the key moment really clicked this past weekend. I've been playing pretty well, but video of my swing showed that I was still overrunning my turn and not giving myself enough space to clear my arms coming into impact. I felt like I was soooo vertical, but my hands were slightly above my shoulder line.

Out on the range after a round, I kept telling my girlriend that my swing didn't feel synced up and I couldn't figure out what I was doing. I set up and asked her to guide my hands up to where she thought they should be at the top of the BS. Real eye-opening moment. She put me where I felt like I was INSANELY over the top. I asked her to watch my BS and tell me if my position was solid and tried to feel l was pushing my hands away from my body--similar to what you talk about. She said I instantly looked a hundred times better, and I felt like I had so much more room. Admittedly, I wasn't perfect, but video showed that I was a hell of a lot closer to clearing my arms without them getting stuck against my right side.

The move will definitely take a lot of practice, but it really help my consistency and resulted in me hitting nice controlled fades (my preferred shape).

Anyway, what made me think of this thread was that I was thinking in two-dimensonal terms (vertical), but the issue sprang from me failing to keep the club sufficiently in front of me. I'll echo the comment above me. It feels stupid over the top, but the swing produced is anything but.
[/quote]

Yes - feels OTT compared to the old "stuck" Top position. I want it right on plane, or if you draw a line through the tip of your right shoulder to the target line at the Top (in same Spine Angle you started on with a 90 degree shoulder turn), your left wrist should be on that line. 45-70 degree angle of left arm to shoulder girdle (less for shorter clubs, more for longer), six to ten inches of space from right elbow to ribcage, right arm angle 75-90 degrees. This is the "waiters tray" position often talked about. Also - flat left/bent right wrist (or close to that).

One check is that if you quickly remove your left hand from the grip, your right arm will instantly straighten. Means you kept your stretch pressure to the Top.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're saying in the first paragraph. What do you mean by "draw a line through the tip of your right shoulder to the target line . . . your left wrist should be on that line." Like draw a line at the top of my shoulders and see if my hands are above/below that line?

"One check is that if you quickly remove your left hand from the grip, your right arm will instantly straighten." I really like this. This is an excellent way to check.

Also, I shot my lowest round in a long time yesterday: 73 despite going bogey, bogey, bogey to finish. It still feels ridiculously OTT and probably will feel that way for a while until I get used to actually having my hands in line with my chest rather than behind me.

I'm at work right now, but I'll try to come back and post some screenshots to illustrate the difference.
[/quote]

mcaesq . . . what cleared up the OTT feel for me was getting in front of a mirror or sliding glass door, and *seeing* what the rightward tilt caused by my transition was doing to my arms and the parallel shaft at the top. Bang, I realized I wasn't over the top at all . . . my shaft plane had dropped (while doing nothing with my arms to make it happen!) into the slot. As long as . . . I had made a full shoulder turn, and realized that my CHEST was upright and pointing behind me . . . and that my address spine angle was retained by an upper spine tilt to the LEFT (i.e., downward, if your chest is facing away from the target).

The ASI realization is excellent for curing arm slinging manipulations, hit impulses and lots of stuff that make inconsistent, um... amatuerish . . . golf swings. Making it work without feeling weird and 'choppy' or OTT requires getting the transition, pivot and spine tilting correct. Pay a lot of attention to those things in front of a mirror, while you look at how your triangle is affected . . . and you'll eventually 'see' that your swing is a blended combo of vertical, horizontal and width dimensions. When your subconscious accepts that, you'll be amazed at how easy it is to hit a good golf shot.
[/quote]

Your last paragraph is very well said! Especially the part about blending the three dimensions. One of the really important ramifications of a true understanding of the ASI concept, is how essential the pivot truly is to an effective swing.[size=4][b] Most amateurs spend a lot of time, energy and effort trying to figure out how to use an upper arm dominant motion as the Primary Mover in their swings[/b][/size], and because of that mistake, neglect to ever learn how to pivot properly.
[/quote]

Jim....can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Upper arms as MDLT talks about?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='whiteretro' timestamp='1427436486' post='11225737']
Jim

1st - Many thanks for taking the time and effort for continued interaction in this thread

The information provided has been eye opening

I attended the world golf fitness expo last fall

The session on kinematic sequencing classified the swing characteristics of approx 150 pros

In these pros, approx 97-98% begin the backswing with the torso

also, 95-96% have lowering of the pelvis at the conclusion of the backswing

The pelvic lowering is accomplished by one of 2 ways - gradual lowering during the backswing or a squatting motion( think Sam Snead) at the end of the backswing

I was having some problems with your backswing principles when I realized I was not lowering my pelvis during the backswing

Once I started my pelvic lowering , my arms immediately went a little outside the line and I found myself at excellent position at the conclusion of the backswing

I then started my downswing with the torso and let the whip unwind

the result - best ball striking of my life

would you please comment on the effect of pelvic lowering during the backswing on your swing methodology?
[/quote]

Very interesting study conclusions! And nice to hear your ballstriking is getting better from some of my concepts.

Cannot comment without a clearer understanding of what precisely the study's authors meant by "pelvic lowering". Perhaps just that the pros had more stable lower bodies?, which is certainly an important part of my teaching. Snead "sitdown" is mainly for re-grounding for balance just prior to pivot thrust, and also to slow down the hip rotation a bit so shoulder girdle can catch up somewhat. I do like to see most of the right knee flex maintained all the way to the Top, since it helps with stability and balance for most golfers.

Arms don't go "outside the line" in the backswing that I teach - a common mis-perception on this thread. Blending the arm and pivot motion properly is the key.

[whiteretro]

My understanding of pelvic lowering was that the height of hip joints was slightly lower at the conclusion of backswing than at start of the swing

By slightly lowering myself during the backswing, the arm pivot motion you describe became much more natural for me and allowed me to
obtain proper positioning at the conclusion of the backswing

When in this position, I can start the downswing by unwinding the slightly lowered coiled torso in a slightly upward path

The strength of the flexed right knee coupled with a stabilized right hip is key - any swaying on the backswing is counter productive

[IndyPhil]

Curious Jim if you had any news on when the DVD's might be coming out?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='whiteretro' timestamp='1427497221' post='11230641']
My understanding of pelvic lowering was that the height of hip joints was slightly lower at the conclusion of backswing than at start of the swing

By slightly lowering myself during the backswing, the arm pivot motion you describe became much more natural for me and allowed me to
obtain proper positioning at the conclusion of the backswing

When in this position, I can start the downswing by unwinding the slightly lowered coiled torso in a slightly upward path

The strength of the flexed right knee coupled with a stabilized right hip is key - any swaying on the backswing is counter productive
[/quote]

OK, that makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly swaying on the backswing is a common Fatal Flaw that I work with students on an almost daily basis. Part of my golf swing model is the concept of a Lower Body Stability Platform, with proper tension in the legs, knees and proper footwork, to keep the golfer "grounded". And no, I did not jump on the "ground reaction force" bandwagon that hs been trendy the past couple of years. I got it from my years of training in and teaching martial arts, and have been using that term "grounding" or "connecting to the ground" since I started teaching full-time in 1995. How the golfer connects to the ground, in Balance (or not), is literally the first thing I look for when working with a new student. It is one reason I named my company Balance Point.

Balance and lower body stability are two things that are almost never discussed here, but I would guess will have a much higher rate of success in terms of much improved ballstriking, for most forum members, than trying to implement all of the technical mumb-jumbo that is usually debated here. And there are no illusions in these two fundamentals! You are either in balance, or you are not. You either have a stable lower body, or not. Pretty concrete and simple to feel while swinging!

[Jim Waldron]

I am still interested in a discussion about the psychology of how to learn and how to practice golf skills. I still strongly believe that it is Neuroscience that is the missing link in the current trendy interest in science-based approaches to golf instruction. I think the mental side of how to learn/practice is likely to be more widely recognized in importance once the dust is settled in the biomechanics/kinesiology realms - likely to happen in the next five-ten years due to much better technology - and thus some form of a basic consensus amongst teachers as to what is actually occurring in the tour pro golf swing (although never likely to be a true universal consensus due to inherent complex nature of the golf swing and the fact that there is indeed more than "one way" that works well).

The un-ravelling of some of the common swing myths which are mostly based on 2D illusions will be the main area of progress in that first stage. We are probably about 75% of the way there right now.

But because humans are not robots, the hard science approach will never be enough to truly help real human golfers, since the "program" that runs the human bio-machine (body) exists in the subconscious brain as mental concepts/pictures/beliefs about how the club should be used, impact, swing shape or geometry, basic body mechanics and power, especially power application.

The fact that the three main mechanical systems all play a role makes it complex - pivot, arms and wrists. Simply understanding the tour pro "program" at the intellectual or conscious mind level will never be enough. The idea that it is enough is the Fatal Flaw in the current biomechanical approach.

Lack of understanding of how little conscious mind precision control over high speed body motion actually exists - close to zero percent on the backswing, much closer to zero on transition and from P6 to just after impact certainly zero per cent - is still widespread in golf instruction circles and among the general population of golfers.

The real question is - how does the conscious mind transfer it's knowledge into the subconscious? Since it is indeed the subconscious (SM) that controls the body with precision in all athletic motions, especially those that take place at a high rate of body speed and occur in a short time frame, like the 1.5 seconds of the golf swing.

I believe that resolving swing issues at the level of intellectual understanding is kind of like preparing the ground in an old, poorly cared for garden. It is essential, as a first step, but still leaves a lot of work to do. Planting the seed and having that seed begin to blossom into a plant would be the second step, or "light bulb moment", where the purely theoretical information is now able to be translated into new and better body motion.

The rate at which that "transference" takes place - and at how deep a level in the SM - is vastly different among golfers. Those with a strong background in sports - especially stick and "ball" sports like baseball or hockey - seem to do it the best. But the coordination of brain-mind/body that is required is something that is seldom discussed in golf circles. How does a teacher help a student improve in that skill area?

I say this since I get new students all the time who have read a ton of golf swing theory books and read this and other golf forums on a regular basis, and still cannot get their body to do most or even any of that wonderful theory.

I think the first step is training in mind awareness - or using one part of your mind to observe what the rest of your mind is doing, and then noticing if that use of the mind is helping or hurting how you learn and practice your new golf skills.

If you are just stuck in your intellect, talking to yourself about swing theory, you are not going to get anywhere with your body moving in a new and better way.

[rteach1]

A Hall of Fame post, Jim. There is a huge difference between knowing [i]what[/i] the best players do and knowing [i]how [/i]they do it. There is also a huge misconception that one can consciously copy something that a tour pro does unconsciously.

rteach1

[4pillars]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428362293' post='11298025']
I am still interested in a discussion about the psychology of how to learn and how to practice golf skills. I still strongly believe that it is Neuroscience that is the missing link in the current trendy interest in science-based approaches to golf instruction. I think the mental side of how to learn/practice is likely to be more widely recognized in importance once the dust is settled in the biomechanics/kinesiology realms - likely to happen in the next five-ten years due to much better technology - and thus some form of a basic consensus amongst teachers as to what is actually occurring in the tour pro golf swing (although never likely to be a true universal consensus due to inherent complex nature of the golf swing and the fact that there is indeed more than "one way" that works well).

The un-ravelling of some of the common swing myths which are mostly based on 2D illusions will be the main area of progress in that first stage. We are probably about 75% of the way there right now.

But because humans are not robots, the hard science approach will never be enough to truly help real human golfers, since the "program" that runs the human bio-machine (body) exists in the subconscious brain as mental concepts/pictures/beliefs about how the club should be used, impact, swing shape or geometry, basic body mechanics and power, especially power application.

The fact that the three main mechanical systems all play a role makes it complex - pivot, arms and wrists. Simply understanding the tour pro "program" at the intellectual or conscious mind level will never be enough. The idea that it is enough is the Fatal Flaw in the current biomechanical approach.

Lack of understanding of how little conscious mind precision control over high speed body motion actually exists - close to zero percent on the backswing, much closer to zero on transition and from P6 to just after impact certainly zero per cent - is still widespread in golf instruction circles and among the general population of golfers.

The real question is - how does the conscious mind transfer it's knowledge into the subconscious? Since it is indeed the subconscious (SM) that controls the body with precision in all athletic motions, especially those that take place at a high rate of body speed and occur in a short time frame, like the 1.5 seconds of the golf swing.

I believe that resolving swing issues at the level of intellectual understanding is kind of like preparing the ground in an old, poorly cared for garden. It is essential, as a first step, but still leaves a lot of work to do. Planting the seed and having that seed begin to blossom into a plant would be the second step, or "light bulb moment", where the purely theoretical information is now able to be translated into new and better body motion.

The rate at which that "transference" takes place - and at how deep a level in the SM - is vastly different among golfers. Those with a strong background in sports - especially stick and "ball" sports like baseball or hockey - seem to do it the best. But the coordination of brain-mind/body that is required is something that is seldom discussed in golf circles. How does a teacher help a student improve in that skill area?

I say this since I get new students all the time who have read a ton of golf swing theory books and read this and other golf forums on a regular basis, and still cannot get their body to do most or even any of that wonderful theory.

I think the first step is training in mind awareness - or using one part of your mind to observe what the rest of your mind is doing, and then noticing if that use of the mind is helping or hurting how you learn and practice your new golf skills.

If you are just stuck in your intellect, talking to yourself about swing theory, you are not going to get anywhere with your body moving in a new and better way.
[/quote]


I started Golf three years ago as a retirement project and was absolutely appalled about how the pro at the range was teaching me, and the complete lack of advice on how to train after the lesson. So much so that I got so interested in the subject that i have just completed an MSc is Sports Psychology with a particular emphasis on Performance enhancement, which strangely enough is a relatively new field. for Sports Pychology

What is true is that there is very little knowledge in Golf on the best ways to practice. An English teaching PGA Nicky Lumb has just completed a PhD on practice in professional Golfers and concluded that even Professional Golfers were wasting a lot of their practice time and not using the best methods to improve their game.

And I only know three current books that look at Golf practice, Eric Jones, Mark Guadagnoli, and Adam Young's.

And there is the the myth that It takes 21 days in a row to form a pattern in which the brain remembers the change of motion/muscle memory, or 5000 repetitions, when as far as I can tell from the research data banks there are no studies that support this.

That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

However, I think it is true to say that if Golf wants to increase the numbers of people in the game it needs to look at this area pretty sharpishly.

[firstbatch]

Good on you 4pillars. As Jim has said before golf has been around but a few hundred years. If one want to truly understand mastery then dive into Asian martial arts etc. Many, many hundreds of years of training and learning in those methods and many parallels to be drawn from them. As you described the avg golf pro on the range is very ill prepared to provide any of this critical "stuff". The old saying applies......you dont't know what you don't know.

The "new" neuroscience in many ways is validating much of what the old masters of martial arts have understood for some time. Golf is a relatively simple motion in comparison to martial arts movements but with the wrong perceptions and intents provided by so called teaching pros a person can easily get put on a wrong track and be lead down a rabbit hole that results in continuous frustration.

[wmblake2000]

Jim, I agree, and disagree with you thoughts about learning. But more importantly, I am certain you are asking the right question.

Briefly, it is my belief that my learning requires both a good cognitive map as well as the abandonment of this map for the reality/feel/experience of the motion, and then finally what I'd call 'trust,' because as you rightly say, so little of the swing is directed by my conscious intent. Yet some of it is - that aspect I am just now learning.

However, I say this is my 'belief' because all this notion I just wrote only approximates what really is happening, and every description of it is removed from the actual process.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1428406734' post='11301253']
A Hall of Fame post, Jim. There is a huge difference between knowing [i]what[/i] the best players do and knowing [i]how [/i]they do it. There is also a huge misconception that one can consciously copy something that a tour pro does unconsciously.

rteach1
[/quote]

Yes! You nailed it.....that idea of consciously copying what a tour pro is doing unconsciously is exactly the Fatal Flaw in current thinking that I was talking about. I think consciously copying is a great idea when doing slow motion mirror work - which is one of the main ways to achieve that "transference" - but when swinging at normal speeds, the golfer needs to NOT try to copy, at least in the literal sense.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428408820' post='11301369']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428362293' post='11298025']
I am still interested in a discussion about the psychology of how to learn and how to practice golf skills. I still strongly believe that it is Neuroscience that is the missing link in the current trendy interest in science-based approaches to golf instruction. I think the mental side of how to learn/practice is likely to be more widely recognized in importance once the dust is settled in the biomechanics/kinesiology realms - likely to happen in the next five-ten years due to much better technology - and thus some form of a basic consensus amongst teachers as to what is actually occurring in the tour pro golf swing (although never likely to be a true universal consensus due to inherent complex nature of the golf swing and the fact that there is indeed more than "one way" that works well).

The un-ravelling of some of the common swing myths which are mostly based on 2D illusions will be the main area of progress in that first stage. We are probably about 75% of the way there right now.

But because humans are not robots, the hard science approach will never be enough to truly help real human golfers, since the "program" that runs the human bio-machine (body) exists in the subconscious brain as mental concepts/pictures/beliefs about how the club should be used, impact, swing shape or geometry, basic body mechanics and power, especially power application.

The fact that the three main mechanical systems all play a role makes it complex - pivot, arms and wrists. Simply understanding the tour pro "program" at the intellectual or conscious mind level will never be enough. The idea that it is enough is the Fatal Flaw in the current biomechanical approach.

Lack of understanding of how little conscious mind precision control over high speed body motion actually exists - close to zero percent on the backswing, much closer to zero on transition and from P6 to just after impact certainly zero per cent - is still widespread in golf instruction circles and among the general population of golfers.

The real question is - how does the conscious mind transfer it's knowledge into the subconscious? Since it is indeed the subconscious (SM) that controls the body with precision in all athletic motions, especially those that take place at a high rate of body speed and occur in a short time frame, like the 1.5 seconds of the golf swing.

I believe that resolving swing issues at the level of intellectual understanding is kind of like preparing the ground in an old, poorly cared for garden. It is essential, as a first step, but still leaves a lot of work to do. Planting the seed and having that seed begin to blossom into a plant would be the second step, or "light bulb moment", where the purely theoretical information is now able to be translated into new and better body motion.

The rate at which that "transference" takes place - and at how deep a level in the SM - is vastly different among golfers. Those with a strong background in sports - especially stick and "ball" sports like baseball or hockey - seem to do it the best. But the coordination of brain-mind/body that is required is something that is seldom discussed in golf circles. How does a teacher help a student improve in that skill area?

I say this since I get new students all the time who have read a ton of golf swing theory books and read this and other golf forums on a regular basis, and still cannot get their body to do most or even any of that wonderful theory.

I think the first step is training in mind awareness - or using one part of your mind to observe what the rest of your mind is doing, and then noticing if that use of the mind is helping or hurting how you learn and practice your new golf skills.

If you are just stuck in your intellect, talking to yourself about swing theory, you are not going to get anywhere with your body moving in a new and better way.
[/quote]


I started Golf three years ago as a retirement project and was absolutely appalled about how the pro at the range was teaching me, and the complete lack of advice on how to train after the lesson. So much so that I got so interested in the subject that i have just completed an MSc is Sports Psychology with a particular emphasis on Performance enhancement, which strangely enough is a relatively new field. for Sports Pychology

What is true is that there is very little knowledge in Golf on the best ways to practice. An English teaching PGA Nicky Lumb has just completed a PhD on practice in professional Golfers and concluded that even Professional Golfers were wasting a lot of their practice time and not using the best methods to improve their game.

And I only know three current books that look at Golf practice, Eric Jones, Mark Guadagnoli, and Adam Young's.

And there is the the myth that It takes 21 days in a row to form a pattern in which the brain remembers the change of motion/muscle memory, or 5000 repetitions, when as far as I can tell from the research data banks there are no studies that support this.

That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

However, I think it is true to say that if Golf wants to increase the numbers of people in the game it needs to look at this area pretty sharpishly.
[/quote]

It was Chuck Hogan (no relation to Ben or Gerry!) who first made popular in golf circles the notion of 21 days to form a habit, back in the early to mid-ninties. I can't recall where he got that number, but I believe it was from an early motor learning study. Chuck was a pioneer in the mental game of golf, who worked with a number of tour pros back then, including Peter Jacobsen. He since moved on to studying how children best learn and thrive, based on Joseph Chilton Pierces' work.

I meant Neuroscience in the Big Picture, Neuropsychology and Neurophysiology, Motor Learning, etc. Starting with basic stuff on reaction-time studies, the limits of conscious control over the body, the "readiness potential" and related subjects.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='firstbatch' timestamp='1428410026' post='11301441']
Good on you 4pillars. As Jim has said before golf has been around but a few hundred years. If one want to truly understand mastery then dive into Asian martial arts etc. Many, many hundreds of years of training and learning in those methods and many parallels to be drawn from them. As you described the avg golf pro on the range is very ill prepared to provide any of this critical "stuff". The old saying applies......you dont't know what you don't know.

The "new" neuroscience in many ways is validating much of what the old masters of martial arts have understood for some time. Golf is a relatively simple motion in comparison to martial arts movements but with the wrong perceptions and intents provided by so called teaching pros a person can easily get put on a wrong track and be lead down a rabbit hole that results in continuous frustration.
[/quote]

I agree completely that the Asian martial arts tradition is still light years ahead of modern golf teaching regarding how a person can learn complex and high speed movement patterns. The concept of slow motion first, and many, many reps is something I learned from my first teacher. Imprinting precision movement in slow motion, and then trusting that new motion completely when actually fighting at normal speeds. That idea of "giving up control to gain control" is very often discussed in martial arts circles. I call it "trusting your naturalness".

It means not getting in your own way when learning a new pattern. I see it every day on the lesson tee. A student will be working on a fairly simple, non-technical thing like maintaining a new and lighter grip pressure, for example, while hitting balls, and he will "try too hard" to be perfect at the new grip pressure, and all of the sudden, the rest of his swing gets all out of whack. You need to learn how to use the right intensity of focused intention, so that the rest of your swing still will manifest with some flow, or athletic motion.

[mikah]

That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

4pillars,
Trust your studies have exposed you to the work of Dr Gabrielle Wulf. Ie how appalling useless it is to teach how body parts move, rather than external learning. How the implement/tool/golf club is to function.

and surely your studies exposed you to the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield. From whom we have known that the head and hands are the prime controllers of human movement since 1950’s.
ie control the hands and the head and the motor cortext will support those movements. 'hand/eye co ordination"

“he published this work in 1951 (2nd ed., 1954) as the landmark [i]Epilepsy and the Functional Anatomy of the Human Brain[/i]. This work contributed a great deal to understanding the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function"]lateralization of brain function[/url]. Penfield's maps showed considerable overlap between regions (i.e. the motor region controlling muscles in the hand sometimes also controlled muscles in the upper arm and shoulder) a feature which he put down to individual variation in brain size and localization; it has since been established that this is due to the fractured somatotropy of the motor cortex. From these results he developed his cortical homunculus map, which is how the brain sees the body from an inside perspective.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield#cite_note-11"][9][/url]”[/sup]
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield"]http://en.wikipedia....Wilder_Penfield[/url][/sup]

“The cortical homunculus is a visual representation of the concept of "the body within the brain"—that one's hand or face exists as much as a series of nerve structures or a "neuron concept", as it exists as a physical form..
The reason for the distorted appearance of the homunculus is that the amount of cerebral tissue or cortex devoted to a given body region is proportional to how richly innervated that region is, not to its size”
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus"]http://en.wikipedia....ical_homunculus[/url][/sup]


[size=4]"There is little need for the brain to know what's going on in the arms and legs. All these limbs need to do is stay out of an open flame and get your hands and feet to the right places. The hands, the tongue, the genitals, and the facial features are extremely important, and give people a ton of sensory information. As a result, they take up a lot of brain space."[/size]

[url="http://io9.com/5670064/how-your-brain-sees-your-body-meet-the-cortical-homunculus"]http://io9.com/56700...ical-homunculus[/url]