The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1428411227' post='11301535']
Jim, I agree, and disagree with you thoughts about learning. But more importantly, I am certain you are asking the right question.

Briefly, it is my belief that my learning requires both a good cognitive map as well as the abandonment of this map for the reality/feel/experience of the motion, and then finally what I'd call 'trust,' because as you rightly say, so little of the swing is directed by my conscious intent. Yet some of it is - that aspect I am just now learning.

However, I say this is my 'belief' because all this notion I just wrote only approximates what really is happening, and every description of it is removed from the actual process.
[/quote]

I think this comes down to one of the ways that "transference" happens, which is, for some golfers, some of the time, (more often with lower handicaps with above average athletic talent) simply holding a mental image in one's conscious mind, ie an "intention", will result in the body performing the new pattern. There is a subtle but important difference between that dynamic and a purely intellectual intent, which will not result in the new pattern manifesting.

You could say that the guy or gal who can do this has a stronger brain-mind/body connection. The nice thing about doing small group golf schools is that it functions as a natural testing laboratory. SIx students are all exposed to the same intellectual presentation on some aspect of golf swing theory. All six tell me that they clearly understand intellectually what it is I want them to do with their body re the new pattern. And their non-verbal signals they are sending tell me that they are being honest with me - all six really do understand intellectually. Yet when it comes to actually performing the new pattern, typically one will do it perfectly within the first few attempts, one will never achieve the new pattern even after a half hour of trying, and the other four will do the new pattern to a moderate degree of success after about ten minutes of practice.

The question is - what is the the guy who achieves success right away doing differently in his brain-mind than the student who struggles? If we can discover what that difference is, can we then coach other students in how to do that, especially the student who struggles?

[4pillars]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1428421438' post='11302959']
That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

4pillars,
Trust your studies have exposed you to the work of Dr Gabrielle Wulf. Ie how appalling useless it is to teach how body parts move, rather than external learning. How the implement/tool/golf club is to function.

and surely your studies exposed you to the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield. From whom we have known that the head and hands are the prime controllers of human movement since 1950’s.
ie control the hands and the head and the motor cortext will support those movements. 'hand/eye co ordination"

“he published this work in 1951 (2nd ed., 1954) as the landmark [i]Epilepsy and the Functional Anatomy of the Human Brain[/i]. This work contributed a great deal to understanding the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function"]lateralization of brain function[/url]. Penfield's maps showed considerable overlap between regions (i.e. the motor region controlling muscles in the hand sometimes also controlled muscles in the upper arm and shoulder) a feature which he put down to individual variation in brain size and localization; it has since been established that this is due to the fractured somatotropy of the motor cortex. From these results he developed his cortical homunculus map, which is how the brain sees the body from an inside perspective.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield#cite_note-11"][9][/url]”[/sup]
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield"]http://en.wikipedia....Wilder_Penfield[/url][/sup]

“The cortical homunculus is a visual representation of the concept of "the body within the brain"—that one's hand or face exists as much as a series of nerve structures or a "neuron concept", as it exists as a physical form..
The reason for the distorted appearance of the homunculus is that the amount of cerebral tissue or cortex devoted to a given body region is proportional to how richly innervated that region is, not to its size”
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus"]http://en.wikipedia....ical_homunculus[/url][/sup]


"There is little need for the brain to know what's going on in the arms and legs. All these limbs need to do is stay out of an open flame and get your hands and feet to the right places. The hands, the tongue, the genitals, and the facial features are extremely important, and give people a ton of sensory information. As a result, they take up a lot of brain space."

[url="http://io9.com/5670064/how-your-brain-sees-your-body-meet-the-cortical-homunculus"]http://io9.com/56700...ical-homunculus[/url]
[/quote]

I certainly know of Dr Gabrielle Wulf, (I have her book and several of her papers) and others who have done work in that area. However in respect to Golf i think her work is flawed. What is the external focus in the Golf swing?. Wulf seems to think it is the club, but she completely ignores Target focus.

Dr. Wilder Penfield. I have never heard of.

[firstbatch]

Good stuff Jim. And in this vein of mastery one of my favorite books is titled just that ....Mastery by George Leonard who was also the author of a great book titled The Way of Aikido. I'm involved with training traders and the Mastery book is the required read from the get go and serves as the very foundation for the journey.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428422875' post='11303231']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1428421438' post='11302959']
That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

4pillars,
Trust your studies have exposed you to the work of Dr Gabrielle Wulf. Ie how appalling useless it is to teach how body parts move, rather than external learning. How the implement/tool/golf club is to function.

and surely your studies exposed you to the work of Dr. Wilder Penfield. From whom we have known that the head and hands are the prime controllers of human movement since 1950’s.
ie control the hands and the head and the motor cortext will support those movements. 'hand/eye co ordination"

“he published this work in 1951 (2nd ed., 1954) as the landmark [i]Epilepsy and the Functional Anatomy of the Human Brain[/i]. This work contributed a great deal to understanding the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function"]lateralization of brain function[/url]. Penfield's maps showed considerable overlap between regions (i.e. the motor region controlling muscles in the hand sometimes also controlled muscles in the upper arm and shoulder) a feature which he put down to individual variation in brain size and localization; it has since been established that this is due to the fractured somatotropy of the motor cortex. From these results he developed his cortical homunculus map, which is how the brain sees the body from an inside perspective.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield#cite_note-11"][9][/url]”[/sup]
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield"]http://en.wikipedia....Wilder_Penfield[/url][/sup]

“The cortical homunculus is a visual representation of the concept of "the body within the brain"—that one's hand or face exists as much as a series of nerve structures or a "neuron concept", as it exists as a physical form..
The reason for the distorted appearance of the homunculus is that the amount of cerebral tissue or cortex devoted to a given body region is proportional to how richly innervated that region is, not to its size”
[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus"]http://en.wikipedia....ical_homunculus[/url][/sup]


"There is little need for the brain to know what's going on in the arms and legs. All these limbs need to do is stay out of an open flame and get your hands and feet to the right places. The hands, the tongue, the genitals, and the facial features are extremely important, and give people a ton of sensory information. As a result, they take up a lot of brain space."

[url="http://io9.com/5670064/how-your-brain-sees-your-body-meet-the-cortical-homunculus"]http://io9.com/56700...ical-homunculus[/url]
[/quote]

I certainly know of Dr Gabrielle Wulf, (I have her book and several of her papers) and others who have done work in that area. However in respect to Golf i think her work is flawed. What is the external focus in the Golf swing?. Wulf seems to think it is the club, but she completely ignores Target focus.

Dr. Wilder Penfield. I have never heard of.
[/quote]

There are more than a few flaws in her work, especially to form a rock-hard conclusion that ONLY focusing on the club is the way to better golf shots. There are many focal points (use of conscious mind intentional awareness) that have won golf tournaments, and Target is, as you said, the most common. But body awareness is another, and will not result in any sort of flinch, IF you use first person perspective in Feel Channel,ie NOT giving yourself a "lesson" on how to "do it" but simply attending to an actual kinesthetic sensation in a single part of the body.

My take on her work is that it simply validates the concept that trying to "think" about the "how to do it" part from second person perspective, creates a flinch. A widely know concept in other sports, golf is only now starting to catch up.

[4pillars]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428420802' post='11302827']
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428408820' post='11301369']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428362293' post='11298025']
I am still interested in a discussion about the psychology of how to learn and how to practice golf skills. I still strongly believe that it is Neuroscience that is the missing link in the current trendy interest in science-based approaches to golf instruction. I think the mental side of how to learn/practice is likely to be more widely recognized in importance once the dust is settled in the biomechanics/kinesiology realms - likely to happen in the next five-ten years due to much better technology - and thus some form of a basic consensus amongst teachers as to what is actually occurring in the tour pro golf swing (although never likely to be a true universal consensus due to inherent complex nature of the golf swing and the fact that there is indeed more than "one way" that works well).

The un-ravelling of some of the common swing myths which are mostly based on 2D illusions will be the main area of progress in that first stage. We are probably about 75% of the way there right now.

But because humans are not robots, the hard science approach will never be enough to truly help real human golfers, since the "program" that runs the human bio-machine (body) exists in the subconscious brain as mental concepts/pictures/beliefs about how the club should be used, impact, swing shape or geometry, basic body mechanics and power, especially power application.

The fact that the three main mechanical systems all play a role makes it complex - pivot, arms and wrists. Simply understanding the tour pro "program" at the intellectual or conscious mind level will never be enough. The idea that it is enough is the Fatal Flaw in the current biomechanical approach.

Lack of understanding of how little conscious mind precision control over high speed body motion actually exists - close to zero percent on the backswing, much closer to zero on transition and from P6 to just after impact certainly zero per cent - is still widespread in golf instruction circles and among the general population of golfers.

The real question is - how does the conscious mind transfer it's knowledge into the subconscious? Since it is indeed the subconscious (SM) that controls the body with precision in all athletic motions, especially those that take place at a high rate of body speed and occur in a short time frame, like the 1.5 seconds of the golf swing.

I believe that resolving swing issues at the level of intellectual understanding is kind of like preparing the ground in an old, poorly cared for garden. It is essential, as a first step, but still leaves a lot of work to do. Planting the seed and having that seed begin to blossom into a plant would be the second step, or "light bulb moment", where the purely theoretical information is now able to be translated into new and better body motion.

The rate at which that "transference" takes place - and at how deep a level in the SM - is vastly different among golfers. Those with a strong background in sports - especially stick and "ball" sports like baseball or hockey - seem to do it the best. But the coordination of brain-mind/body that is required is something that is seldom discussed in golf circles. How does a teacher help a student improve in that skill area?

I say this since I get new students all the time who have read a ton of golf swing theory books and read this and other golf forums on a regular basis, and still cannot get their body to do most or even any of that wonderful theory.

I think the first step is training in mind awareness - or using one part of your mind to observe what the rest of your mind is doing, and then noticing if that use of the mind is helping or hurting how you learn and practice your new golf skills.

If you are just stuck in your intellect, talking to yourself about swing theory, you are not going to get anywhere with your body moving in a new and better way.
[/quote]


I started Golf three years ago as a retirement project and was absolutely appalled about how the pro at the range was teaching me, and the complete lack of advice on how to train after the lesson. So much so that I got so interested in the subject that i have just completed an MSc is Sports Psychology with a particular emphasis on Performance enhancement, which strangely enough is a relatively new field. for Sports Pychology

What is true is that there is very little knowledge in Golf on the best ways to practice. An English teaching PGA Nicky Lumb has just completed a PhD on practice in professional Golfers and concluded that even Professional Golfers were wasting a lot of their practice time and not using the best methods to improve their game.

And I only know three current books that look at Golf practice, Eric Jones, Mark Guadagnoli, and Adam Young's.

And there is the the myth that It takes 21 days in a row to form a pattern in which the brain remembers the change of motion/muscle memory, or 5000 repetitions, when as far as I can tell from the research data banks there are no studies that support this.

That said Neuroscience, and I presume you means fMRI by that, is still in its infancy in regard to motor skills, as it is pretty much restricted to finger movements.

However, I think it is true to say that if Golf wants to increase the numbers of people in the game it needs to look at this area pretty sharpishly.
[/quote]

It was Chuck Hogan (no relation to Ben or Gerry!) who first made popular in golf circles the notion of 21 days to form a habit, back in the early to mid-ninties. I can't recall where he got that number, but I believe it was from an early motor learning study. Chuck was a pioneer in the mental game of golf, who worked with a number of tour pros back then, including Peter Jacobsen. He since moved on to studying how children best learn and thrive, based on Joseph Chilton Pierces' work.

I meant Neuroscience in the Big Picture, Neuropsychology and Neurophysiology, Motor Learning, etc. Starting with basic stuff on reaction-time studies, the limits of conscious control over the body, the "readiness potential" and related subjects.
[/quote]

Strangely enough i had started rereading chuck hogan.s five days to Golfing excellence this morning. Definitely a pioneer although he builds on a lot of NLP. The 21 days however is his experience 21 days *60 reps and is not based on any motor studies. I have his other books as well including his one on Zen and golf but IMHO they are not as good.

Chuck Hogan influenced Vision54 and I guess that as they do cover practice in their two books (including slow motion practice) I should add them to the list.

[mikah]

I certainly know of Dr Gabrielle Wulf, (I have her book and several of her papers) and others who have done work in that area. However in respect to Golf i think her work is flawed. What is the external focus in the Golf swing?. Wulf seems to think it is the club, but she completely ignores Target focus.

Dr. Wilder Penfield. I have never heard of.

[color=#282828]"i have just completed an MSc is S[/color][color=#282828]i have just completed an MSc is Sports Psychology with a particular emphasis on Performance enhancement[/color][color=#282828]ports Psychology with a particular emphasis on Performance enhancement"[/color]

4pillars,

MSc in Sports Psychology and Dr Penfields work/ Homunculus, not studied?

Wouldnt you think to know that over 60% of the neurons in the motor cortex are devoted to the head and hands, would be somewhat important to performance enhancement, not to mention training?

That arms and legs movement is for the most part to support the intention we have of the hands and feet, would be somewhat important to performance enhancement, not to mention training?

Another 10 million golfers will have left the game, if it takes another ten years for sports educators to understand homunculus, when its been known
for over 70 years,

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1427487144' post='11229537']
[quote name='whiteretro' timestamp='1427436486' post='11225737']
would you please comment on the effect of pelvic lowering during the backswing on your swing methodology?
[/quote]

Very interesting study conclusions! And nice to hear your ballstriking is getting better from some of my concepts.

Cannot comment without a clearer understanding of what precisely the study's authors meant by "pelvic lowering". Perhaps just that the pros had more stable lower bodies?, which is certainly an important part of my teaching. Snead "sitdown" is mainly for re-grounding for balance just prior to pivot thrust, and also to slow down the hip rotation a bit so shoulder girdle can catch up somewhat. I do like to see most of the right knee flex maintained all the way to the Top, since it helps with stability and balance for most golfers.
[/quote]

They're probably focusing on the fact that almost all of the best ballstrikers lower from the top of their swing. Their head lowers and the question is what "good" function physically leads to that?

The right side bend certainly has something to do with it

Here's Rory Mcilroy doing it...[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpSYKf2RgtI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=fpSYKf2RgtI[/url]

[mikah]

[color=#282828]I certainly know of Dr Gabrielle Wulf, (I have her book and several of her papers) and others who have done work in that area. However in respect to Golf i think her work is flawed. What is the external focus in the Golf swing?. Wulf seems to think it is the club, but she completely ignores Target focus.[/color]


[color=#282828]4pillars[/color]

[color=#282828]Pete Cowan, arguably one of the top golf instructors of our time. [/color]
[color=#282828]demonstrates external learning with focus on the implement, whether its a golf club or an axe.[/color]

[color=#282828]Suggest this is what Dr Wulf has in mind for the SC,preprogrammed complex sequential movement we call golf swing.[/color]
[color=#282828]What does target focus have to do with this?[/color]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDt6N0eF-T8"]https://www.youtube....h?v=tDt6N0eF-T8[/url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cqErl2HpE#t=63

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428421761' post='11303031']

The question is - what is the the guy who achieves success right away doing differently in his brain-mind than the student who struggles? If we can discover what that difference is, can we then coach other students in how to do that, especially the student who struggles?
[/quote]

Seems to me there are many variables at play that account for the variability you describe. Some of it in the brain's basic structure... eg, some have this kind of intelligence, others have that kind.... Then there are massive psychological aspects as to why people get disconnected mind/body.

My partner (we're in the learning biz) thinks the single most potent attribute is the capacity to focus. He often starts teaching something with ringing a large bell and remaining silent until the sound fully dissipates. (He also thinks that things like our energy level are important, eg, prana/chi. But focus is #1.)

Mind body connection is a life's work, at least for me. Improving in golf is clearly related to growing this capacity to feel - but to feel moves that are sensible.

The other thing that has been really mind--blowing for me is for years, no decades, I wandered around more-or-less lost in the golf swing. Lessons and practice but no ... direction. Then all of a sudden everything began to click and now my development is fast tracked. [i]Something clicked, and I think it was a holistic model of the swing - a 'forest' for all those trees to dwell in. [/i]From here it is a much simpler matter to change. And I *think* the key for this clicking was essentially about a new belief that finally replaced a ton of non-verbal, very intuitive and very misguided feels that it took forever to recognize and contradict.

This 'resistance' seems to me to be the other third of the equation, that seems to have these parts: good mind-body direct connection; good intention/cognitive map of decent stuff (eg, not a wild goose chase of irrelevant moves); and awareness of the contractions and resistance from old, deeply trusted feels.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1428458536' post='11308155']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428421761' post='11303031']
The question is - what is the the guy who achieves success right away doing differently in his brain-mind than the student who struggles? If we can discover what that difference is, can we then coach other students in how to do that, especially the student who struggles?
[/quote]

Seems to me there are many variables at play that account for the variability you describe. Some of it in the brain's basic structure... eg, some have this kind of intelligence, others have that kind.... Then there are massive psychological aspects as to why people get disconnected mind/body.

My partner (we're in the learning biz) thinks the single most potent attribute is the capacity to focus. He often starts teaching something with ringing a large bell and remaining silent until the sound fully dissipates. (He also thinks that things like our energy level are important, eg, prana/chi. But focus is #1.)

Mind body connection is a life's work, at least for me. Improving in golf is clearly related to growing this capacity to feel - but to feel moves that are sensible.

The other thing that has been really mind--blowing for me is for years, no decades, I wandered around more-or-less lost in the golf swing. Lessons and practice but no ... direction. Then all of a sudden everything began to click and now my development is fast tracked. [i]Something clicked, and I think it was a holistic model of the swing - a 'forest' for all those trees to dwell in. [/i]From here it is a much simpler matter to change. And I *think* the key for this clicking was essentially about a new belief that finally replaced a ton of non-verbal, very intuitive and very misguided feels that it took forever to recognize and contradict.

This 'resistance' seems to me to be the other third of the equation, that seems to have these parts: good mind-body direct connection; good intention/cognitive map of decent stuff (eg, not a wild goose chase of irrelevant moves); and awareness of the contractions and resistance from old, deeply trusted feels.
[/quote]

Very interesting discoveries you have made on your journey!


I think the cognitive map you mentioned is vitally important, but especially so at the deeper layers of the mind, where motor control actually originates, what I have called the Swing Map. And having many deep insights/light bulb moments about various mechanical pieces of the 3D golf swing jigsaw puzzle is one of the big keys to rapid and permanent ballstriking success. For example, I always use a Big Picture visual image in our ballstriking boot camp golf schools, on the very first day, of a spiral staircase and of a vortex in water, ie water circling a drain. And ask the student to picture themselves making a golf swing standing inside that spiral shape - focusing in turn on the body alone, ie no arms and no club, then on arms and body but no club, and then on the club added to arms and body. This is a simple exercise that starts the mental process of picturing the swing happening in the three spatial dimensions and often will quickly clear up a lot of false beliefs and mental pictures that the student had previously clung to, with negative results to his or her ballstriking.

The tendency to view the swing in mostly 2 dimensions is quite strong, and once that is overcome, a lot of light bulbs start to go off.

Another interesting thing regarding this, that I see everyday on the lesson tee, is that there is a conflict between the conscious mind understanding of the swing in 3D, ie correct view, and the subconscious still seeing the swing in 2D, the false view. And guess which mind ends up controlling the body during the normal speed golf swing? The SM. And so the golfer experiences emotions like frustration.

I agree with your friend, the ability to focus the mind is also where I begin. And also how the mind works in three primary sensory channels: visual, auditory and feel. And exercises on how to access those individual channels at will and to switch back and forth between them at will.

The next step is understanding the limits of conscious mind control of the body. Performing an existing motor program like shoe lace tying and then in reverse is one exercise we do. And drawing a circle and a square in the air with the index finger simultaneously as a coordination test. Of course the old "rub your tummy and pat your head" is another. Another is to watch me swinging in slow motion and try to duplicate what you see me doing - that one is always mind-blowing for some students, because they start to understand that there body and club motion is way off from what I am showing.

And how the body responds to cues. There is a great little toy called "Bopper" that is fantastic for strengthening the brain-mind/body connection. It has a voice chip that commands you to "slide it, bop it, twist it" and the voice will speed up as you successfully execute the commands. At some point, you make a mistake, and will twist it instead of bopping it, and then it stops and you have to start over

As you spend more time with the device you are able to respond more quickly and you start to realize that if a. you over-think it or b. you try to hard emotionally, you flinch and make a mistake. I think the golf swing is very much like this - you have to let the body react fluidly, and hope that your mental picture message got through to the SM. Often times in the early stages of training it does not get through, and the old motor program will manifest in the body motion.

[4pillars]

I have a friend who is an NLP Trainer who keeps bringing his Bopper out at trainings. To be honest though I am not sure what it is meant to achieve.

I thought I would mention what to me s the upside down World of Golf training. is the bio mechanic lab at an elite training academy in the UK.

They can do biomechanical feedback, so that if they determine that a players stroke needs adjusting then the feedback device is programmed to give a signal if the person is doing the stroke change correctly or not.

To me what is upside down about it is that this sort of thing seems more useful at the start of the golf journey before the habits have been formed than correcting them well down the line.

[url="http://youtu.be/4fjKFjmdHG0"]http://youtu.be/4fjKFjmdHG0[/url]

[wmblake2000]

Jim, I'd add one more thing to the mix. Why does one play golf? Of course, there are many answers from people. But for me, the key motive is freedom/abandon/faith - however one describes it - while performing at peak, especially in competition.

This is entirely about the realm you are describing. That's the goal. To perform at peak, in competition, with a joy in being. That's my next step as a gofer.

[4pillars]

Jim

I am using your Quiet eye techniques in Great Shot for the irons etc focusing the eye at the low point of the swing..

Where do you recommend placing the focus for putting - on the back of the ball or on a spot in front?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1428498548' post='11310269']
Jim, I'd add one more thing to the mix. Why does one play golf? Of course, there are many answers from people. But for me, the key motive is freedom/abandon/faith - however one describes it - while performing at peak, especially in competition.

This is entirely about the realm you are describing. That's the goal. To perform at peak, in competition, with a joy in being. That's my next step as a gofer.
[/quote]

Yes - the motivation behind why one chooses to play this game has a major influence on how well a golfer will actually play, and how he or she will deal with the inevitable frustration that happens, and also how much you enjoy playing the game. I think a lot of folks "forget" why they fell in love with the game in the first place and kind of get off track. I see three main motivations for playing: competition, the art of shotmaking and the love of learning new ideas/skills. I think all golfers have all three motivations, but one will be Primary. Knowing which one of those is indeed Primary for you can really help!

Competitors mainly care about winning, even if they have to "win ugly". They get satisfaction out of shooting a lowest ever score or winning a match. Shotmakers love to see a golf shot in their mind and then find a way to create that shot in reality - the creative aspect of golf. They tend to spend a lot of time on the practice area working on shots and figuring out better technique. Learners read a lot about golf and take a lot of lessons, and really enjoy their "light bulb moments". Golf presents endless opportunities for these folks since it is such a complex game with so many things to learn.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428830749' post='11338495']
Jim

I am using your Quiet eye techniques in Great Shot for the irons etc focusing the eye at the low point of the swing..

Where do you recommend placing the focus for putting - on the back of the ball or on a spot in front?
[/quote]

So how far in front of the ball are you focusing?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428830749' post='11338495']
Jim

I am using your Quiet eye techniques in Great Shot for the irons etc focusing the eye at the low point of the swing..

Where do you recommend placing the focus for putting - on the back of the ball or on a spot in front?
[/quote]

Not really looking where low point would be. Rather just the general notion of in front of the ball, ie target side or "post-impact". Tends to delay the release a bit for early-releasers and makes you less ball-bound and impact-bound. For example, low point ideal for driver is around one inch behind the ball, but you should look 4-6 inches in front of the ball with that club using this method. Wedge is only around one inch in front.

Putting it depends. Looking at the hole is my preferred option for most of my students - at least I encourage them to give it a try. It has a lot of advantages. Next best is picking a spot about two inches in front of the ball on the target line, which is the way Dave Stockton recommends. That one seems to work very well for a lot of my students.

But if you really just cant get around the notion of not looking at the ball, you can try the Bobby Jones "fuzzy ball" option which is to deliberately de-focus your vision so that the ball looks like a fuzzy white ball of cotton. If that does not work well, then you can try focusing on a letter on the back of the ball, or top of the ball, or just use a dimple.

The key is to keep your head steady and your eyeballs centered in the sockets until well after impact, ideally until you stop for a second or two at your Finish.

[4pillars]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1428861163' post='11340201']
[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1428830749' post='11338495']
Jim

I am using your Quiet eye techniques in Great Shot for the irons etc focusing the eye at the low point of the swing..

Where do you recommend placing the focus for putting - on the back of the ball or on a spot in front?
[/quote]

Not really looking where low point would be. Rather just the general notion of in front of the ball, ie target side or "post-impact". Tends to delay the release a bit for early-releasers and makes you less ball-bound and impact-bound. For example, low point ideal for driver is around one inch behind the ball, but you should look 4-6 inches in front of the ball with that club using this method. Wedge is only around one inch in front.

Putting it depends. Looking at the hole is my preferred option for most of my students - at least I encourage them to give it a try. It has a lot of advantages. Next best is picking a spot about two inches in front of the ball on the target line, which is the way Dave Stockton recommends. That one seems to work very well for a lot of my students.

But if you really just cant get around the notion of not looking at the ball, you can try the Bobby Jones "fuzzy ball" option which is to deliberately de-focus your vision so that the ball looks like a fuzzy white ball of cotton. If that does not work well, then you can try focusing on a letter on the back of the ball, or top of the ball, or just use a dimple.

The key is to keep your head steady and your eyeballs centered in the sockets until well after impact, ideally until you stop for a second or two at your Finish.
[/quote]

I guess Jordan Spieth looking at the hole when putting short putts will help persuade people..

[Aithos]

I think there are some good things here, particularly regarding the mental aspect of golf. I feel a lot of people grossly underestimate the importance of having an understanding of the mechanics and why they work.

I'm very naturally athletic and I'm also highly intellectual, I enjoy understanding the how and why of things but when it comes to sports I rely more on what "feels" right. The struggle for me with anything athletic is taking the mechanical and intellectual knowledge and translating that to how it FEELS and being able to replicate that.

To be honest though I think you're missing the mark a bit with your arm illusion concept and its importance. What you're talking about is a pretty basic optical illusion of how far the arms actually move relative to your body because of the secondary axis of movement from your core rotation. What you're teaching people is how to stay connected so their arms and bodies aren't moving haphazardly and instead work in a natural flow. Of course if I swing my arms way too far and then turn and then swing back it's going to produce awful results, I have no tempo or smooth motion to generate power and I'm going to be really late with my arms.

I don't have a problem with how you present your method of teaching, whatever works for you and your students is great. This just isn't a new or earth shattering revelation though, it's like the Monte thread I saw the other day where his student was repeating 6 swing thoughts all doing the same thing and it finally clicked for him. There are a dozen other ways to present your idea and I've seen multiple solutions for finding the appropriate arm and core position at the top of your backswing.

I'm not saying it isn't important, I'm working on this very thing for this year so I can improve my swing path and increase my SS to hit the ball better. My swing is pretty consistent but my results could be better if my position at impact was better and I did a better job of staying connected and managing tempo as I change the power of my swing depending on the shot.

Not trying to bust your balls or anything, let's just not get too carried away with how life altering this stuff is, there are no more original ideas in the golf swing, only ways of looking at them. Perspective is great, but everyone sees things differently and there isn't such a thing as "perfect". If anything I think people should focus less on how they hit the ball and more on the choices leading up to hitting it, most people have a bigger problem between their ears than in their golf swing...

[firstbatch]

There are indeed as you say some good things in this thread and some great things. One of which we is great that we get to interact with a dedicated teacher who runs a dedicated business to train people up in a consistent and integrated methodology that is both detailed and flexible to the student Sure there are lots of ways to skin the cat and explain the golf swing or more so teach it and Jim has done an awesome job organizing a solid program and methodology that he he willing to share a part of as he works a dedicated business as a full time teacher of the game.

We all know one thing for sure that there are lots of poor instruction choices a player could encounter that can seriously derail a students advancement in this game......teaching is just that bad. Well at least some of it it is. And this monster thread has been a bowl of cherries of things that work in executing a solid golf swing if you work at it

[Aithos]

[quote name='firstbatch' timestamp='1429140371' post='11368843']
There are indeed as you say some good things in this thread and some great things. One of which we is great that we get to interact with a dedicated teacher who runs a dedicated business to train people up in a consistent and integrated methodology that is both detailed and flexible to the student Sure there are lots of ways to skin the cat and explain the golf swing or more so teach it and Jim has done an awesome job organizing a solid program and methodology that he he willing to share a part of as he works a dedicated business as a full time teacher of the game.

We all know one thing for sure that there are lots of poor instruction choices a player could encounter that can seriously derail a students advancement in this game......teaching is just that bad. Well at least some of it it is. And this monster thread has been a bowl of cherries of things that work in executing a solid golf swing if you work at it
[/quote]

I don't disagree at all, and I think his approach is a good one for certain kinds of people. I was just reading through some of the comments early in the thread and some of the more recent ones and some people phrase the concept as if it's incredibly difficult to understand and without instruction and careful tutelage how can we hope to visualize it. Some of the posts talk like this is going to change the face of the golfing world forever and I just take exception to that sort of tone. As I said, I have no problem with his concept, his idea, his teaching methods, I don't know him at all - he seems like a very good teacher.

I just wanted to pause for a moment as a reality check and make sure people don't consider it as some crazy esoteric concept because it's really basic physics about rotation and movement on a plane. It's an optical illusion and the reason most people move their arms too far when demonstrating is because you're asking them the wrong question and getting their interpretation of what you're asking. They are taking it as "what position is their arm in at the top of the swing" which is parallel to the ground and why everyone brings their arm across their body, they aren't rotating because it's not comfortable to stand and hold that position. It doesn't matter how far the arms actually move so long as your body and arms are in the correct position at the top of your swing. This concept is just a different way of teaching it.

Think of it like math - there are many ways to solve a problem. One way isn't better than another except that people all learn and understand things differently, what makes sense to me may completely baffle someone else and vice versa. That's the trick to being a good teacher - to be able to understand the fundamental concept and explain it in several meaningfully different manners. When you can only explain it once that's really un-helpful to anyone who doesn't understand it that way, and repetition won't help, which is why so many golfers don't improve and why if you don't "click" with a teacher you should try another. It's not that the instructor was bad, they may just think of things differently than you and you need someone who approaches the game the same way you do.

Again, no problem with anything here except exaggeration...

[firstbatch]

If it's ok with you I'm not going to think of it" like math"..........you analogy is tired , everyone knows that people when learning respond to different methods. Heck anyone who is a parent figures that out real quick.

Sorry to say your posts leave me dazed as you just are not saying anything of value. There is no need for you to provide a reality check inferring that the readers have been hoodwoinked or something...Give it a break.

I have no idea what you mean by exaggeration in your ending comment but it comes off as completely nonsensical. I can tell you that in golf and golf learning/teaching exaggerations is in fact necessary in order to get people to feel change......that's how drills works.

[Aithos]

[quote name='firstbatch' timestamp='1429186017' post='11371727']
If it's ok with you I'm not going to think of it" like math"..........you analogy is tired , everyone knows that people when learning respond to different methods. Heck anyone who is a parent figures that out real quick.

Sorry to say your posts leave me dazed as you just are not saying anything of value. There is no need for you to provide a reality check inferring that the readers have been hoodwoinked or something...Give it a break.

I have no idea what you mean by exaggeration in your ending comment but it comes off as completely nonsensical. I can tell you that in golf and golf learning/teaching exaggerations is in fact necessary in order to get people to feel change......that's how drills works.
[/quote]

Ok, let me try to make my point in a more straight forward fashion - I'm cautioning people about making golf concepts seem like more than they are. Exaggeration when teaching or making a point is fine, exaggerating the importance of a particular approach in learning a golf concept is dangerous - that's all I meant.

You don't have to get defensive here, I'm not criticizing Jim or even directing any comments at him at all. I am not implying or inferring that he is hoodwinking anyone, I stated pretty clearly that I think his approach is a good one and that he's a good teacher. But the fact of the matter is that some people will accept anything they are told without understanding it and then misunderstand or misinterpret it and spread that information.

I've also seen cases (not on this forum) where people talked up an idea so much that people were actually intimidated and put off trying to learn and understand it that they gave up, it was a bad approach in that case. My post was just to say that as a community everyone needs to be careful that we don't blow things out of proportion and get too focused on certain details to the detriment of the whole.

I hope he gets his book out and it's successful, I hope it teaches a bunch of people who previously didn't understand what was wrong with their swing how to fix it. Again, I've got no problem here with Jim. I'm just saying don't get carried away, something doesn't have to be original to have value...

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429198248' post='11373329']
[quote name='firstbatch' timestamp='1429186017' post='11371727']
If it's ok with you I'm not going to think of it" like math"..........you analogy is tired , everyone knows that people when learning respond to different methods. Heck anyone who is a parent figures that out real quick.

Sorry to say your posts leave me dazed as you just are not saying anything of value. There is no need for you to provide a reality check inferring that the readers have been hoodwoinked or something...Give it a break.

I have no idea what you mean by exaggeration in your ending comment but it comes off as completely nonsensical. I can tell you that in golf and golf learning/teaching exaggerations is in fact necessary in order to get people to feel change......that's how drills works.
[/quote]

Ok, let me try to make my point in a more straight forward fashion - I'm cautioning people about making golf concepts seem like more than they are. Exaggeration when teaching or making a point is fine, exaggerating the importance of a particular approach in learning a golf concept is dangerous - that's all I meant.

You don't have to get defensive here, I'm not criticizing Jim or even directing any comments at him at all. I am not implying or inferring that he is hoodwinking anyone, I stated pretty clearly that I think his approach is a good one and that he's a good teacher. But the fact of the matter is that some people will accept anything they are told without understanding it and then misunderstand or misinterpret it and spread that information.

I've also seen cases (not on this forum) where people talked up an idea so much that people were actually intimidated and put off trying to learn and understand it that they gave up, it was a bad approach in that case. My post was just to say that as a community everyone needs to be careful that we don't blow things out of proportion and get too focused on certain details to the detriment of the whole.

I hope he gets his book out and it's successful, I hope it teaches a bunch of people who previously didn't understand what was wrong with their swing how to fix it. Again, I've got no problem here with Jim. I'm just saying don't get carried away, something doesn't have to be original to have value...
[/quote]

No one here is getting "carried away". Perhaps you did not read the entire thread? If you had, you would know that I said several times that the ASI is not in any way a "magic move" or any such similar golf instruction marketing nonsense. Just one very important fundamental concept in a long list of many such fundamentals and swing concepts that I teach.

As for my students who have posted here on how much the ASI concept was a breakthrough revelation, and for the non-students as well who achieved a similar breakthrough, I assure you - this was in no way an exaggeration to them. When someone tells you ASI or any other swing concept was a "mind-blowing" experience for them, I think you should respect that.

It sounds like for you the notion of thinking about the golf swing in 3D terms comes rather easily, so naturally, you assume that by comparison to the average golfer, who lacks such understanding and is certainly thinking mostly in 2D, that when they talk about their "light bulbs", that they are exaggerating. Not true - for them it is very real.

Of course it is also very possibly the case that you don't actually understand the ASI concept to the extent that you think you do. I could be wrong about this, certainly. But I can tell you this - I have had well over 30 forum members come to see me for golf schools, everyone told me at the start of the school that they "totally got" the ASI concept, and every single one of them told me at the end of the school, that their prior understanding was "way off". And that the implications of the ASI were far more important than they had previously believed.

Several thousand golf school graduates and scores of teaching pros have told me that the ASI and related concepts are indeed "groundbreaking". I agree with them. That does not mean that there are not MANY other very important swing concepts that one needs to know about and master to reach your potential.

In golf, as in Life, most things are nuanced. One of my favorite authors, F. Scott Fitzgerald, famously said when discussing this (and I am going purely on memory here) "the sign of an intelligent man is the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts in mind simultaneously and yet still retain the ability to function."

[Atrayn]

Great reply Jim - as far as "mind-blowing" and "light bulb moments" go, I was part of one last night. I went to my local course to practice and was in the pitching area. I was really getting "in the groove" with both my wedges. I see people stuggling and an older gentleman was having a markedly bad time.
My bag was on his side of the green and I went over to head home.

He excused himself and asked if I could give him any tips as he was "petrified" around the greens because he was new to the game and saw how easy I made it look and was playing this weekend. "No problem" I changed his setup and explained bounce and how to execute the "Monte pitch"

In just a few swings he was throwing his 60 up in the air and landing it on the green. I explained what he was doing that was causing the sculls and also what was producing fat shots. The relief I saw in his eyes and the amount of gratitude he expressed was such a joy to experience...it's what I love about teaching and just wish I could get back and do it full time again...

Funny side note....one of the last things I did was show him the right hand only drill and how one could hit a high soft 9 iron with it. As I was walking away I turned to check back on him and 3 people were doing the drill....love it!

[Atrayn]

Great reply Jim - as far as "mind-blowing" and "light bulb moments" go, I was part of one last night. I went to my local course to practice and was in the pitching area. I was really getting "in the groove" with both my wedges. I see people stuggling and an older gentleman was having a markedly bad time.
My bag was on his side of the green and I went over to head home.

He excused himself and asked if I could give him any tips as he was "petrified" around the greens because he was new to the game and saw how easy I made it look and was playing this weekend. "No problem" I changed his setup and explained bounce and how to execute the "Monte pitch"

In just a few swings he was throwing his 60 up in the air and landing it on the green. I explained what he was doing that was causing the sculls and also what was producing fat shots. The relief I saw in his eyes and the amount of gratitude he expressed was such a joy to experience...it's what I love about teaching and just wish I could get back and do it full time again...

Funny side note....one of the last things I did was show him the right hand only drill and how one could hit a high soft 9 iron with it. As I was walking away I turned to check back on him and 3 people were doing the drill....love it!

[kg1128]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?

[kg1128]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?

[Millbrook]

[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429333205' post='11385655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?
[/quote]

Yes it is discussed.

[Millbrook]

[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429333205' post='11385655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?
[/quote]

Yes it is discussed.

[Reasonability]

Jim perhaps you could speak to something that has lingered in my own mind for decades.

Golfers commit. For better or worse there is some form of stance - something (or nothing) is going on inside the golfer's SM and CM just before takeaway. The body is in some "state" which is likely manifested in various levels of tension. But its this matter of commitment I would love to hear your thoughts about.

From your perspective, is the golfer who expresses swing feels rather that swing thoughts more likely to swing well?

My head scratching comes from having experienced both. For periods of time I would envision the swing, mentally rehearse the swing at address and committing to transition or other things I was working on of late.

At other times there was no such specific "thing" in my mind... it was more of a matter of anticipating upcoming feels and something closer to a mental/emotional/physical state of rest. Either way I was 'committing'.

Hope I'm making at least some sense as it relates to the psychological aspect of golf and you can help me end this head-scratch. I suppose I am wondering if its OK to do a little bit of both or one is actually by far the better approach.