The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Reasonability]

Jim perhaps you could speak to something that has lingered in my own mind for decades.

Golfers commit. For better or worse there is some form of stance - something (or nothing) is going on inside the golfer's SM and CM just before takeaway. The body is in some "state" which is likely manifested in various levels of tension. But its this matter of commitment I would love to hear your thoughts about.

From your perspective, is the golfer who expresses swing feels rather that swing thoughts more likely to swing well?

My head scratching comes from having experienced both. For periods of time I would envision the swing, mentally rehearse the swing at address and committing to transition or other things I was working on of late.

At other times there was no such specific "thing" in my mind... it was more of a matter of anticipating upcoming feels and something closer to a mental/emotional/physical state of rest. Either way I was 'committing'.

Hope I'm making at least some sense as it relates to the psychological aspect of golf and you can help me end this head-scratch. I suppose I am wondering if its OK to do a little bit of both or one is actually by far the better approach.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429333205' post='11385655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?
[/quote]

Do the pushaway approximately when you've turned your torso/shoulder girdle about 30 degrees...for me that's about when my hands look like they're moving across or just past my right knee, if I'm taking a standard width stance.

Jim explains it in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk&index=7&list=PLVwPClyU1F2abpGVQl2-vpCSuvhSm4N5_

[mc3jack]

[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429333205' post='11385655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?
[/quote]

Do the pushaway approximately when you've turned your torso/shoulder girdle about 30 degrees...for me that's about when my hands look like they're moving across or just past my right knee, if I'm taking a standard width stance.

Jim explains it in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk&index=7&list=PLVwPClyU1F2abpGVQl2-vpCSuvhSm4N5_

[Redhaze737]

Shot my age today - 69. Could have been better if my short game didn't suck. I made a few putts, but my ball striking was above average – and the wind was 15 gusting to 25. Thank you Jim!

I've had the pleasure of getting together with Jim for a lesson a couple times while he has been in Hawaii. I appreciate his knowledge of the game and while I ask for and use his input I also like his thoughts on things I'm already working on. He always makes sense and tries to put information out there to help me change what I want to change. He doesn't just tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I've always been an inside out swinger with a lot of leg drive and the left side of the golf course is my enemy. I can hit the most beautiful shots followed by the ugliest left of left shots you have ever seen. I have worked on reducing this over the years with some success. However, when I was looking at some of my recent videos I did not like the way my club was crossing the line ever so slightly at the top. Not a lot, but I don't need that with my issues. Plus, I've always had this little rotate the face closed a couple degrees move about halfway back. It's very hard to see and I only notice it when I do slow practice swings. It's like, what was that? What? That little move that's not supposed to be there. I don't know I didn't see it. Blah blah blah. Anyway, you know what I mean. Jim and I have not talked about either of these small issues, they just bug me.

So, at a recent range session Jim's 'push away' came to mind. I thought if I push out that way down here maybe up there it will go the other way. The golf swing is very counterintuitive if you ask me. Sometimes you just have to go outside your box.

Now to me, pushing the club away from my body during the back swing just says 'over the top pull the ball left on the downswing' very loudly. So, I took some videos while pushing away as much as I could on the takeaway. I mean I felt like I was just way outside by waist high. Damn! The video showed not even close to going outside the line. The club head passed right through my hands on the way up. Plus the crossing the line at the top stopped. Say what? When I added to that the elimination of my little rotate the club face closed a couple degrees, I could put the ball in the center of the club face with power. What a difference.

And, the push away seems to help an issue that Jim and I did talk about, raising my head on the backswing which makes my shoulders flat. I'm still raising up a couple inches, but I did not hit one left of left shot today. I can't remember the last time I said that after a round of golf.

This push away idea is a keeper. Thanks Jim. I'm looking forward to next year when you come back to Hawaii so I can pick your brain again. Maybe we should work on my short game. Arrggg.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Redhaze737' timestamp='1429587904' post='11404291']
Shot my age today - 69. Could have been better if my short game didn't suck. I made a few putts, but my ball striking was above average – and the wind was 15 gusting to 25. Thank you Jim!

I've had the pleasure of getting together with Jim for a lesson a couple times while he has been in Hawaii. I appreciate his knowledge of the game and while I ask for and use his input I also like his thoughts on things I'm already working on. He always makes sense and tries to put information out there to help me change what I want to change. He doesn't just tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I've always been an inside out swinger with a lot of leg drive and the left side of the golf course is my enemy. I can hit the most beautiful shots followed by the ugliest left of left shots you have ever seen. I have worked on reducing this over the years with some success. However, when I was looking at some of my recent videos I did not like the way my club was crossing the line ever so slightly at the top. Not a lot, but I don't need that with my issues. Plus, I've always had this little rotate the face closed a couple degrees move about halfway back. It's very hard to see and I only notice it when I do slow practice swings. It's like, what was that? What? That little move that's not supposed to be there. I don't know I didn't see it. Blah blah blah. Anyway, you know what I mean. Jim and I have not talked about either of these small issues, they just bug me.

So, at a recent range session Jim's 'push away' came to mind. I thought if I push out that way down here maybe up there it will go the other way. The golf swing is very counterintuitive if you ask me. Sometimes you just have to go outside your box.

Now to me, pushing the club away from my body during the back swing just says 'over the top pull the ball left on the downswing' very loudly. So, I took some videos while pushing away as much as I could on the takeaway. I mean I felt like I was just way outside by waist high. Damn! The video showed not even close to going outside the line. The club head passed right through my hands on the way up. Plus the crossing the line at the top stopped. Say what? When I added to that the elimination of my little rotate the club face closed a couple degrees, I could put the ball in the center of the club face with power. What a difference.

And, the push away seems to help an issue that Jim and I did talk about, raising my head on the backswing which makes my shoulders flat. I'm still raising up a couple inches, but I did not hit one left of left shot today. I can't remember the last time I said that after a round of golf.

This push away idea is a keeper. Thanks Jim. I'm looking forward to next year when you come back to Hawaii so I can pick your brain again. Maybe we should work on my short game. Arrggg.
[/quote]

Congrats R on your breakthrough and shooting your age, in a wind storm no less!

Pretty cool....

I think the pushaway blended with your more left tilt backswing will be a keeper for you.

Short game next winter on the North Shore sounds like a plan!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1429486238' post='11394003']
[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429333205' post='11385655']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366916804' post='6916915']
combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion[/quote]

Got this from Jim's post on page 1 and sorry I didn't read the remaining 90 pages. I agree with the statement (although 45 can be 30 or 60 and that's related to the amount of arm lift, just nitpicking here) and understand that it can be beneficial in understanding and developing a good swing.

Probably it was discussed already I assume, but out of curiosity - does Jim or anyone discuss options for the sequencing of arm pushaway during backswing? In other words, how do you blend arm pushaway with chest rotation?
[/quote]

Do the pushaway approximately when you've turned your torso/shoulder girdle about 30 degrees...for me that's about when my hands look like they're moving across or just past my right knee, if I'm taking a standard width stance.

Jim explains it in this video.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk&index=7&list=PLVwPClyU1F2abpGVQl2-vpCSuvhSm4N5_"]https://www.youtube....2-vpCSuvhSm4N5_[/url]
[/quote]

There is more than one way that works. Objectively (camera view) you can see the arms start to pushaway at any point from immediately as the Pivot of core and torso starts to when the hands are around inside of right thigh. From first person intention standpoint, it depends. If you are a way inside with the arms golfer, than feel the pushaway starts first and then the Pivot.

The main point is that you blend both, and the Ideal is to blend both so shaft tracks back on plane almost all the way to end of takeaway.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1429418642' post='11390253']
Jim perhaps you could speak to something that has lingered in my own mind for decades.

Golfers commit. For better or worse there is some form of stance - something (or nothing) is going on inside the golfer's SM and CM just before takeaway. The body is in some "state" which is likely manifested in various levels of tension. But its this matter of commitment I would love to hear your thoughts about.

From your perspective, is the golfer who expresses swing feels rather that swing thoughts more likely to swing well?

My head scratching comes from having experienced both. For periods of time I would envision the swing, mentally rehearse the swing at address and committing to transition or other things I was working on of late.

At other times there was no such specific "thing" in my mind... it was more of a matter of anticipating upcoming feels and something closer to a mental/emotional/physical state of rest. Either way I was 'committing'.

Hope I'm making at least some sense as it relates to the psychological aspect of golf and you can help me end this head-scratch. I suppose I am wondering if its OK to do a little bit of both or one is actually by far the better approach.
[/quote]

I may be mis-interpreting your intent here since it is so tough to describe in words your subjective state.

Sounds like you are asking is it better to direct the body motion with a specific intent or just trust your swing and let go??

If so - the evidence is overwhelming that trust will most likely create a better shot outcome. I would say that it is near 100% the case if the mental intention to direct the body comes from CM only, using thinking, ie seeing visual images or talking to body parts.

Feels are a whole different animal. Once you have trained a pattern and have a familiar feel (lots of reps) you can "call up" the feel sense memory, which is likely (not guaranteed) to create the pattern.

The issue with lack of trust is that a. you lose some of the rest of your swing, ie you lose your athletic "naturalness" or flow and b. you may create a flinch. Lack of trust = anxiety = flinch.

One of my teaching rules for hitting golf shots is to never use "swing thoughts", ONLY "swing feels".

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1429286272' post='11381179']
Great reply Jim - as far as "mind-blowing" and "light bulb moments" go, I was part of one last night. I went to my local course to practice and was in the pitching area. I was really getting "in the groove" with both my wedges. I see people stuggling and an older gentleman was having a markedly bad time.
My bag was on his side of the green and I went over to head home.

He excused himself and asked if I could give him any tips as he was "petrified" around the greens because he was new to the game and saw how easy I made it look and was playing this weekend. "No problem" I changed his setup and explained bounce and how to execute the "Monte pitch"

In just a few swings he was throwing his 60 up in the air and landing it on the green. I explained what he was doing that was causing the sculls and also what was producing fat shots. The relief I saw in his eyes and the amount of gratitude he expressed was such a joy to experience...it's what I love about teaching and just wish I could get back and do it full time again...

Funny side note....one of the last things I did was show him the right hand only drill and how one could hit a high soft 9 iron with it. As I was walking away I turned to check back on him and 3 people were doing the drill....love it!
[/quote]

Yeah, helping golfers breakthrough to better golf shots is one of great pleasures in life for a teaching pro!

Harvey Penick used to talk about getting a "thrill down my spine" when watching a student who was struggling suddenly start to hit great shots. Their joy is infectious!

[kg1128]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429627284' post='11406809']
I may be mis-interpreting your intent here since it is so tough to describe in words your subjective state.

Sounds like you are asking is it better to direct the body motion with a specific intent or just trust your swing and let go??

If so - the evidence is overwhelming that trust will most likely create a better shot outcome. I would say that it is near 100% the case if the mental intention to direct the body comes from CM only, using thinking, ie seeing visual images or talking to body parts.

Feels are a whole different animal. Once you have trained a pattern and have a familiar feel (lots of reps) you can "call up" the feel sense memory, which is likely (not guaranteed) to create the pattern.

The issue with lack of trust is that a. you lose some of the rest of your swing, ie you lose your athletic "naturalness" or flow and b. you may create a flinch. Lack of trust = anxiety = flinch.

One of my teaching rules for hitting golf shots is to never use "swing thoughts", ONLY "swing feels".
[/quote]

Jim, fascinating stuff! Thanks for your contribution.

What if we use CM in conjunction with SM? Actually I have a very specific idea - use CM to visualize one very specific position, [b]end of backswing[/b], and rest of the swing let SM dictate. (To elaborate, end of backswing (top) is more than just geometric relationships between different body parts; it also include sense of weight and tension).

In this framework, backswing is all about getting to the visualized top position. I can care less about how I get there - when to push away arms, how much to rotate torso - instead, my focus is solely on "getting there". Rationale is that, as long as you get to the correct top position, it's not that important how you get there.

From top through impact to finish, there is simply no room for body to react to CM. SM is again the main driver, and correct downswing movement should be ingrained as a 'feel' through practice.

Visualized top position should work as a checkpoint. Having a clear image of this position should provide trust to rest of the SM-driven swing motion. Although it comes from CM, it's a single position rather than a series of body movements so it doesn't interrupt SM as much. Most people associate this top position with change of direction, but that is detrimental. Rather, it connects backswing to downswing, and it's just one position that you should pass through within a single fluid motion. Then, backswing is not about hitting position A to B to C but it's about optimizing rhythm, balance, and fluidity for what's ahead - transition to downswing to impact to finish.

By no means this is easy and I wouldn't recommend this swing approach to any beginner. Because, in order to do this, one has to know 1) what correct top position looks like, and 2) how to swing from top to finish correctly. But once you become familiar, this can really free you from all the swing thoughts without losing control over your swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='kg1128' timestamp='1429649589' post='11409917']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429627284' post='11406809']
I may be mis-interpreting your intent here since it is so tough to describe in words your subjective state.

Sounds like you are asking is it better to direct the body motion with a specific intent or just trust your swing and let go??

If so - the evidence is overwhelming that trust will most likely create a better shot outcome. I would say that it is near 100% the case if the mental intention to direct the body comes from CM only, using thinking, ie seeing visual images or talking to body parts.

Feels are a whole different animal. Once you have trained a pattern and have a familiar feel (lots of reps) you can "call up" the feel sense memory, which is likely (not guaranteed) to create the pattern.

The issue with lack of trust is that a. you lose some of the rest of your swing, ie you lose your athletic "naturalness" or flow and b. you may create a flinch. Lack of trust = anxiety = flinch.

One of my teaching rules for hitting golf shots is to never use "swing thoughts", ONLY "swing feels".
[/quote]

Jim, fascinating stuff! Thanks for your contribution.

What if we use CM in conjunction with SM? Actually I have a very specific idea - use CM to visualize one very specific position, [b]end of backswing[/b], and rest of the swing let SM dictate. (To elaborate, end of backswing (top) is more than just geometric relationships between different body parts; it also include sense of weight and tension).

In this framework, backswing is all about getting to the visualized top position. I can care less about how I get there - when to push away arms, how much to rotate torso - instead, my focus is solely on "getting there". Rationale is that, as long as you get to the correct top position, it's not that important how you get there.

From top through impact to finish, there is simply no room for body to react to CM. SM is again the main driver, and correct downswing movement should be ingrained as a 'feel' through practice.

Visualized top position should work as a checkpoint. Having a clear image of this position should provide trust to rest of the SM-driven swing motion. Although it comes from CM, it's a single position rather than a series of body movements so it doesn't interrupt SM as much. Most people associate this top position with change of direction, but that is detrimental. Rather, it connects backswing to downswing, and it's just one position that you should pass through within a single fluid motion. Then, backswing is not about hitting position A to B to C but it's about optimizing rhythm, balance, and fluidity for what's ahead - transition to downswing to impact to finish.

By no means this is easy and I wouldn't recommend this swing approach to any beginner. Because, in order to do this, one has to know 1) what correct top position looks like, and 2) how to swing from top to finish correctly. But once you become familiar, this can really free you from all the swing thoughts without losing control over your swing.
[/quote]

If it works for you as a strategy, of course you should keep doing it. Conscious mind can certainly hold the visual image of the proper Top of backswing position, but that is not the same thing as the CM creating that position. That is entirely the job of the SM, if you are swinging at normal speed. And visual images have a weak transference, ie they tend to not communicate strongly with the SM, and thus with the body. Feel images/messages to the SM are more stronger and more concrete, and thus more likely to be "accepted" by the SM/body.

Conscious mind is always present during the golf swing or stroke, it is simply a myth that one can "turn off" the conscious mind. You can of course stop cognitve functioning or "thinking" and golfers who suffer from an overly-analytical mindset or "contamination" who finally learn how to stop thinking during the swing conflate that with an "empty mind" or "thinking of nothing" or even a kind of "loss of consciousness". You aren't in a coma, as I always joke with my students - you have simply stopped thinking. Your mind is not empty, it's just empty of thoughts, which is not the same thing. You have simply replaced swing thoughts with swing feels or even Target thought.

The other issue with Top position is that golfers often try to "hold onto it" rather than simply swing through it, as you suggested. They "freeze" when they get there. All because they are using the image of the Top as a way of masking their fear of not swinging correctly or well. They will tend to "check out" how well they are achieving that Top position. It is simply irresistable to do so for any contaminated golfer, which is probably 90% of golfers. To me, it is far too easy to be giving oneself a lesson on the proper Top position.

Once you step onto the first tee, it is way too late to being yourself a swing lesson. I believe you should simply play golf that day with the swing you have - flaws and all - and play for your miss. If you have a two way miss, badly, then simply stop playing for a short while, take instruction, and fix it, so that you have a one way miss.

[starsail85]

Jim

Do you believe a golfer would benefit from strengthening exercises of the chest and arms to strengthen the triangle against the forces of the pivot, I know you mention these internal arm pressures as subtle but does everything tightening transition and would it make sense to strengthen these areas?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1429814226' post='11426643']
Jim

Do you believe a golfer would benefit from strengthening exercises of the chest and arms to strengthen the triangle against the forces of the pivot, I know you mention these internal arm pressures as subtle but does everything tightening transition and would it make sense to strengthen these areas?
[/quote]


The amount of arm pressure is very small, nowhere near enough to require special training.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429627284' post='11406809']
[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1429418642' post='11390253']
Jim perhaps you could speak to something that has lingered in my own mind for decades.

Golfers commit. For better or worse there is some form of stance - something (or nothing) is going on inside the golfer's SM and CM just before takeaway. The body is in some "state" which is likely manifested in various levels of tension. But its this matter of commitment I would love to hear your thoughts about.

From your perspective, is the golfer who expresses swing feels rather that swing thoughts more likely to swing well?

My head scratching comes from having experienced both. For periods of time I would envision the swing, mentally rehearse the swing at address and committing to transition or other things I was working on of late.

At other times there was no such specific "thing" in my mind... it was more of a matter of anticipating upcoming feels and something closer to a mental/emotional/physical state of rest. Either way I was 'committing'.

Hope I'm making at least some sense as it relates to the psychological aspect of golf and you can help me end this head-scratch. I suppose I am wondering if its OK to do a little bit of both or one is actually by far the better approach.
[/quote]

I may be mis-interpreting your intent here since it is so tough to describe in words your subjective state.

Sounds like you are asking is it better to direct the body motion with a specific intent or just trust your swing and let go??

If so - the evidence is overwhelming that trust will most likely create a better shot outcome. I would say that it is near 100% the case if the mental intention to direct the body comes from CM only, using thinking, ie seeing visual images or talking to body parts.

Feels are a whole different animal. Once you have trained a pattern and have a familiar feel (lots of reps) you can "call up" the feel sense memory, which is likely (not guaranteed) to create the pattern.

The issue with lack of trust is that a. you lose some of the rest of your swing, ie you lose your athletic "naturalness" or flow and b. you may create a flinch. Lack of trust = anxiety = flinch.

One of my teaching rules for hitting golf shots is to never use "swing thoughts", ONLY "swing feels".
[/quote]

As always, thanks Jim. You didn't misinterpret at all. Well replied and much appreciated. Hope the new vids are coming along and Kiwi 2 is well.

[Aithos]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429224284' post='11376453']
No one here is getting "carried away". Perhaps you did not read the entire thread? If you had, you would know that I said several times that the ASI is not in any way a "magic move" or any such similar golf instruction marketing nonsense. Just one very important fundamental concept in a long list of many such fundamentals and swing concepts that I teach.

As for my students who have posted here on how much the ASI concept was a breakthrough revelation, and for the non-students as well who achieved a similar breakthrough, I assure you - this was in no way an exaggeration to them. When someone tells you ASI or any other swing concept was a "mind-blowing" experience for them, I think you should respect that.

It sounds like for you the notion of thinking about the golf swing in 3D terms comes rather easily, so naturally, you assume that by comparison to the average golfer, who lacks such understanding and is certainly thinking mostly in 2D, that when they talk about their "light bulbs", that they are exaggerating. Not true - for them it is very real.

Of course it is also very possibly the case that you don't actually understand the ASI concept to the extent that you think you do. I could be wrong about this, certainly. But I can tell you this - I have had well over 30 forum members come to see me for golf schools, everyone told me at the start of the school that they "totally got" the ASI concept, and every single one of them told me at the end of the school, that their prior understanding was "way off". And that the implications of the ASI were far more important than they had previously believed.

Several thousand golf school graduates and scores of teaching pros have told me that the ASI and related concepts are indeed "groundbreaking". I agree with them. That does not mean that there are not MANY other very important swing concepts that one needs to know about and master to reach your potential.

In golf, as in Life, most things are nuanced. One of my favorite authors, F. Scott Fitzgerald, famously said when discussing this (and I am going purely on memory here) "the sign of an intelligent man is the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts in mind simultaneously and yet still retain the ability to function."
[/quote]

Jim,

I appreciate your response and that you took the time to read what I had to say and were respectful in the manner you replied. That's a rare thing in Internet communities, especially from teachers and people in positions of respect when discussing their ideas, so I want you to know that I respect that and it says a lot about your character. I greatly enjoy discussing things with people who know how to conduct themselves as gentleman and don't take offense to people who may have a different perspective. So thank you for that.

I wasn't trying to downplay the personal revelation aspect at all, personal revelations can be powerful things and everyone is different. What might be simple to me might be mind-blowing to someone else and vice versa, I'm not disputing or doubting that at all. That wasn't the purpose of my post, nor was it to discredit or make light of the importance of your concept or teaching style.

In fact, it is my opinion (and I feel very strongly) that in order to be a good teacher you MUST be able to explain things different ways for exactly that reason: because we all see and approach the world in different ways. It is not uncommon for me to be thinking of things from a different perspective and it can often lead to situations where I don't do a very good job of getting my point across. I really do understand needing to have things presented in a manner you understand, I've had that experience throughout my education and I know how important it is.

The reason I posted is because I've seen threads like this before in other communities where the topic became something over the course of time that it wasn't intended to be. The good idea that was a very good approach (among many) became regarded as THE approach and the people who had personal "AHA!" moments started belittling or dismissing anyone who either didn't share the same perspective or attempted to suggest another approach.

I saw some posts in here as I was skimming that reminded me of those other topics and so I just wanted to come in and caution people to keep things in perspective and remember the important thing: learning something from someone knowledgeable and improving your golf game by gaining another perspective. I realize that your intent and the intent of the posters isn't negative and I never meant to imply anything of the sort.

However, there will be people who come in here and take away impressions you or the other posters didn't mean to imply - just like you (and others) read something in my post that wasn't intended. I just wanted to remind everyone that golf is a very personal game and to not get caught up in finding a "magical bullet" because as you say: there isn't one. There is a lot of good info in here and I would hate to see your approach become a monster unto itself where people are intimidated or discouraged by it.

I've been involved in online communities of one fashion or another since the early days of the Internet and maybe it's caused me to become a bit cynical. I've just seen so many cases where people miss out on really good information for silly reasons, or will deny a different perspective because of arrogance or a fear of appearing less than perfect. It is really sad that so many people would rather live in ignorance than acknowledge that someone else might be right, but I don't think that's what is going on here and I didn't come in here to say that you're wrong.

I don't have a problem with people recognizing a good idea or re-working a concept into a new approach, I just don't believe there is such a thing as a "ground-breaking" idea left in the game of golf. Your spin on the concept may be original (and I certainly haven't seen it before) but it doesn't have to be revolutionary to be important or valuable. I don't think that diminishes the value of the approach at all, because it will be new to some people and if it helps those people: GREAT. That's the purpose of teaching and the reward for doing what you do.

But no - I didn't read the entire thread. I've been a member here for years but I haven't been active until recently since 2012 and this thread is 91 pages long. I simply don't have the time or desire to go through that many pages on a single topic so I skimmed through. Topics like this really need a sticky with a FAQ at the top and a hyperlink menu to the posts with the most relevant information. It's a fair amount of work to set that up but I've seen it done on other forums and it makes discussions like this a lot more accessible to new people...

[kg1128]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429134323' post='11368273']
What you're talking about is a pretty basic optical illusion of how far the arms actually move relative to your body because of the secondary axis of movement from your core rotation. What you're teaching people is how to stay connected so their arms and bodies aren't moving haphazardly and instead work in a natural flow.
[/quote]

Just wondering, what do you mean by "stay connected" or "in a natural flow"?

Based on what you said here, you have zero understanding of TASI. Therefore you have no grounds for saying things like "missing the mark" or "nothing new or earth shattering".

TASI is not about an optical illusion of how far the arms move as you describe. It's about golfer's misperception about correct arm movement in a golf swing; pushaway instead of swinging back. It's not as vague or obvious as what you believe it is ("how to stay connected so their arms and bodies aren't moving haphazardly and instead work in a natural flow"), Jim is very specific in describing what the move is and how to implement it into a golf swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429909020' post='11435329']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429224284' post='11376453']
No one here is getting "carried away". Perhaps you did not read the entire thread? If you had, you would know that I said several times that the ASI is not in any way a "magic move" or any such similar golf instruction marketing nonsense. Just one very important fundamental concept in a long list of many such fundamentals and swing concepts that I teach.

As for my students who have posted here on how much the ASI concept was a breakthrough revelation, and for the non-students as well who achieved a similar breakthrough, I assure you - this was in no way an exaggeration to them. When someone tells you ASI or any other swing concept was a "mind-blowing" experience for them, I think you should respect that.

It sounds like for you the notion of thinking about the golf swing in 3D terms comes rather easily, so naturally, you assume that by comparison to the average golfer, who lacks such understanding and is certainly thinking mostly in 2D, that when they talk about their "light bulbs", that they are exaggerating. Not true - for them it is very real.

Of course it is also very possibly the case that you don't actually understand the ASI concept to the extent that you think you do. I could be wrong about this, certainly. But I can tell you this - I have had well over 30 forum members come to see me for golf schools, everyone told me at the start of the school that they "totally got" the ASI concept, and every single one of them told me at the end of the school, that their prior understanding was "way off". And that the implications of the ASI were far more important than they had previously believed.

Several thousand golf school graduates and scores of teaching pros have told me that the ASI and related concepts are indeed "groundbreaking". I agree with them. That does not mean that there are not MANY other very important swing concepts that one needs to know about and master to reach your potential.

In golf, as in Life, most things are nuanced. One of my favorite authors, F. Scott Fitzgerald, famously said when discussing this (and I am going purely on memory here) "the sign of an intelligent man is the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts in mind simultaneously and yet still retain the ability to function."
[/quote]

Jim,

I appreciate your response and that you took the time to read what I had to say and were respectful in the manner you replied. That's a rare thing in Internet communities, especially from teachers and people in positions of respect when discussing their ideas, so I want you to know that I respect that and it says a lot about your character. I greatly enjoy discussing things with people who know how to conduct themselves as gentleman and don't take offense to people who may have a different perspective. So thank you for that.

I wasn't trying to downplay the personal revelation aspect at all, personal revelations can be powerful things and everyone is different. What might be simple to me might be mind-blowing to someone else and vice versa, I'm not disputing or doubting that at all. That wasn't the purpose of my post, nor was it to discredit or make light of the importance of your concept or teaching style.

In fact, it is my opinion (and I feel very strongly) that in order to be a good teacher you MUST be able to explain things different ways for exactly that reason: because we all see and approach the world in different ways. It is not uncommon for me to be thinking of things from a different perspective and it can often lead to situations where I don't do a very good job of getting my point across. I really do understand needing to have things presented in a manner you understand, I've had that experience throughout my education and I know how important it is.

The reason I posted is because I've seen threads like this before in other communities where the topic became something over the course of time that it wasn't intended to be. The good idea that was a very good approach (among many) became regarded as THE approach and the people who had personal "AHA!" moments started belittling or dismissing anyone who either didn't share the same perspective or attempted to suggest another approach.

I saw some posts in here as I was skimming that reminded me of those other topics and so I just wanted to come in and caution people to keep things in perspective and remember the important thing: learning something from someone knowledgeable and improving your golf game by gaining another perspective. I realize that your intent and the intent of the posters isn't negative and I never meant to imply anything of the sort.

However, there will be people who come in here and take away impressions you or the other posters didn't mean to imply - just like you (and others) read something in my post that wasn't intended. I just wanted to remind everyone that golf is a very personal game and to not get caught up in finding a "magical bullet" because as you say: there isn't one. There is a lot of good info in here and I would hate to see your approach become a monster unto itself where people are intimidated or discouraged by it.

I've been involved in online communities of one fashion or another since the early days of the Internet and maybe it's caused me to become a bit cynical. I've just seen so many cases where people miss out on really good information for silly reasons, or will deny a different perspective because of arrogance or a fear of appearing less than perfect. It is really sad that so many people would rather live in ignorance than acknowledge that someone else might be right, but I don't think that's what is going on here and I didn't come in here to say that you're wrong.

I don't have a problem with people recognizing a good idea or re-working a concept into a new approach, I just don't believe there is such a thing as a "ground-breaking" idea left in the game of golf. Your spin on the concept may be original (and I certainly haven't seen it before) but it doesn't have to be revolutionary to be important or valuable. I don't think that diminishes the value of the approach at all, because it will be new to some people and if it helps those people: GREAT. That's the purpose of teaching and the reward for doing what you do.

But no - I didn't read the entire thread. I've been a member here for years but I haven't been active until recently since 2012 and this thread is 91 pages long. I simply don't have the time or desire to go through that many pages on a single topic so I skimmed through. Topics like this really need a sticky with a FAQ at the top and a hyperlink menu to the posts with the most relevant information. It's a fair amount of work to set that up but I've seen it done on other forums and it makes discussions like this a lot more accessible to new people...
[/quote]

Thank you for your feedback and your excellent clarification of your original points - well said and much appreciated!

I am always trying to be careful in what I write here in the hope that is will be helpful to some folks, and at a minimum, not cause any harm to any one's game or golf swing. It is one reason I have stated repeatedly that online forums are certainly not the best way to go about working on one's golf swing. At best, the information is simply an arrow or guidepost pointing you in what could be the "right direction" for your game. Folks need actual lessons, preferably in person, or through webcam demo/phone chat as the second best choice. It is very easy for words on a page to be mis-understood, which explains why so often here very smart and well intended members end up in these debates that go nowhere.

Sometimes even in a live lesson, where I am moving the student's body into the proper positions, there can be confusion in the early stages. The golf swing is NOT easily reducible to simple word-based understanding, some of that is due to the complex nature of the swing itself, and some due to the nature of language.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1429840699' post='11429777']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1429627284' post='11406809']
[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1429418642' post='11390253']
Jim perhaps you could speak to something that has lingered in my own mind for decades.

Golfers commit. For better or worse there is some form of stance - something (or nothing) is going on inside the golfer's SM and CM just before takeaway. The body is in some "state" which is likely manifested in various levels of tension. But its this matter of commitment I would love to hear your thoughts about.

From your perspective, is the golfer who expresses swing feels rather that swing thoughts more likely to swing well?

My head scratching comes from having experienced both. For periods of time I would envision the swing, mentally rehearse the swing at address and committing to transition or other things I was working on of late.

At other times there was no such specific "thing" in my mind... it was more of a matter of anticipating upcoming feels and something closer to a mental/emotional/physical state of rest. Either way I was 'committing'.

Hope I'm making at least some sense as it relates to the psychological aspect of golf and you can help me end this head-scratch. I suppose I am wondering if its OK to do a little bit of both or one is actually by far the better approach.
[/quote]

I may be mis-interpreting your intent here since it is so tough to describe in words your subjective state.

Sounds like you are asking is it better to direct the body motion with a specific intent or just trust your swing and let go??

If so - the evidence is overwhelming that trust will most likely create a better shot outcome. I would say that it is near 100% the case if the mental intention to direct the body comes from CM only, using thinking, ie seeing visual images or talking to body parts.

Feels are a whole different animal. Once you have trained a pattern and have a familiar feel (lots of reps) you can "call up" the feel sense memory, which is likely (not guaranteed) to create the pattern.

The issue with lack of trust is that a. you lose some of the rest of your swing, ie you lose your athletic "naturalness" or flow and b. you may create a flinch. Lack of trust = anxiety = flinch.

One of my teaching rules for hitting golf shots is to never use "swing thoughts", ONLY "swing feels".
[/quote]

As always, thanks Jim. You didn't misinterpret at all. Well replied and much appreciated. Hope the new vids are coming along and Kiwi 2 is well.
[/quote]

Thank you, R. I always learn something from your excellent posts.

Video timeline was delayed a bit to some back spasms I had in Hawaii, but we are back on track, and will finish the final bits of taping for first two Modules this week, sunny and high 70's this week here at home in Oregon, perfect taping weather. Most of the editing and graphics is already done, so we hope to have them available very soon. More on that later this week.

Kiwi is well, just very busy right now.

[sjt4718]

Keep the club head outside the hands before the wrist hinge. I'll meet you at the airport Hawaiian airlines first class have my ticket ready and I'll teach you the bank account illusion next.

[Timbo22]

[quote name='sjt4718' timestamp='1430169779' post='11453703']
Keep the club head outside the hands before the wrist hinge. I'll meet you at the airport Hawaiian airlines first class have my ticket ready and I'll teach you the bank account illusion next.
[/quote]

Just wrong. if i suck the arms behind me under the 'illusion' of an arm swing but keep the club outside the hands, the face will be hooded shut and i will need to reroute over the top to square the path, while lifting the hands through impact to try and stop the face shutting hard left. I swung like this for years with a viscious hip slide to try make room for the arms which were miles behind.

Only after reading this thread, did i start to lift my hands in front as i turned, for the FIRST time my shaft was between my arms halfway, i rotate the left forearm to lay off the club and can slam hard left through impact with no fear of the left hand side of the course because i'm on plane. This was the missing backswing move for me. My backswing thought to start is basically dumbell curl my right bicep while rotating my left forearm and turning. Your mileage may vary.

Jim, and kiwi, thanks for this thread. Great stuff.

Edited to address my passive aggresive snarkiness which the interweb tends to draw out.

[MrJones]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429909020' post='11435329']
[b]I appreciate your response[/b] and that you took the time to read what I had to say and were respectful in the manner you replied. [b]That's a rare thing in Internet communities[/b],

In fact, [b]it is my opinion (and I feel very strongly)[/b] that in order to be a good teacher you MUST be able to explain things different ways for exactly that reason: because we all see and approach the world in different ways.

[b]The reason I posted is because I've seen threads like this before in other communities where the topic became something over the course of time that it wasn't intended to be.[/b]

[b]I saw some posts in here as I was skimming[/b] that reminded me of those other topics and so[b] [u]I just wanted to come in and caution people to keep things in perspective and remember the important thing[/u]:[/b] learning something from someone knowledgeable and improving your golf game by gaining another perspective. I realize that your intent and the intent of the posters isn't negative and I never meant to imply anything of the sort.

However, there will be people who come in here and take away impressions you or the other posters didn't mean to imply - just like you (and others) read something in my post that wasn't intended. [u][b] I just wanted to remind everyone that golf is a very personal game and to not get caught up in finding a "magical bullet" because as you say:[/b][/u] there isn't one. There is a lot of good info in here and I would hate to see your approach become a monster unto itself where people are intimidated or discouraged by it.

[b]I've been involved in online communities of one fashion or another since the early days of the Internet[/b] and maybe it's caused me to become a bit cynical. I've just seen so many cases where people miss out on really good information for silly reasons, or will deny a different perspective because of arrogance or a fear of appearing less than perfect. [b] It is really sad that so many people would rather live in ignorance than acknowledge that someone else might be right[/b], but I don't think that's what is going on here and I didn't come in here to say that you're wrong.

But no -[b] I didn't read the entire thread[/b]. I've been a member here for years but I haven't been active until recently since 2012 and this thread is 91 pages long. [b] I simply don't have the time or desire to go through that many pages on a single topic so I skimmed through[/b]. Topics like this really need a sticky with a FAQ at the top and a hyperlink menu to the posts with the most relevant information. It's a fair amount of work to set that up but[b] I've seen it done on other forums [/b]and it makes discussions like this a lot more accessible to new people...
[/quote]

As a non-highly intelligent person I'd just like to thank you for coming in and warning me of the dangers of getting too caught up in a teaching proffesionals thread. I've only been on the internet since 95' and have fallen prey to many a thread that had me changing my golf swing, rooting for a win by an opposing team to secure a playoff spot, changing the breaks on my truck with a certain brand name brake, or going to see a movie that wasn't really that good.

Other people might read your post as being arrogant or slightly obnoxious, but not me. I recognize the need for an internet police made up of highly intellectual people like yourself, to keep guys like me out of harms way.

Thanks again. I'm sure you don't hear it enough. In fact, I'd be suprised if you've heard it at all.

[Reasonability]

Having been through very good and a few very damaging lessons for decades now, I can say there are only a few things I've absolutely learned.

1) The golf swing from shortest to the longest club in the bag is highly individual. What works for some does not necessarily work for others. It doesn't matter what any one book or guru says - one size just doesn't fit all.

2) Its a much mental and emotional as it is physical.

3) Parts of the swing are interrelated and flow into each other - starting with the grip and setup.

Jim makes every effort (IMHO) to at least try and address all three of the above. Number 2 seems to me to be hugely lacking in the scheme of things. We seem to need to get that piece from a sports psychologist and then go elsewhere for swing help as a general rule. He means well and has the demeanor of someone who genuinely wants to help golfers. This does not mean others are incapable of doing what Jim does. Its just to voice that its rare to see an instructor tackle all of the above rather than only one or two of the three.

That's all I can ask. Arguing p-whatever positions and quoting famous past or present swing philosophies all day and into the night is fine by me. And if ASI is unsettling for some reason to some - that's OK. There is no pleasing us all and plenty of other kool-aid fountains to drink from.

What I can assure others of having been through some quality (and not so quality) learning experiences for decades -- having narrowed the list of what I absolutely do know after all those years -- I can safely say I can decide for myself who resonates with me personally while welcoming others to decide for themselves. To each his own.

[borker]

[quote name='Timbo22' timestamp='1430210410' post='11456657']My backswing thought to start is basically dumbell curl my right bicep while rotating my left forearm and turning.
[/quote]

This is the feel I came across as well the other day while workin on keeping the arms more in front of my chest. A combo of torso rotation at same time as "curling" with my right bicept. Much different feeling getting to and the actual top-of-backswing position than I am used to - more compact feeling. Feeling so uncordinated as it is different powered - all torso and arms-unit goes for ride compared to feeling like arms power just take club to top and body/torso/shoulders follow.

[Lefthook]

Congrats with the pin

[ShutSteepStuck]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1430288233' post='11463647']
Congrats with the pin
[/quote]

Way overdue.

Always enjoy Jim's patient and measured replies. Jim is a class act!

[Michael C.]

Congrats with the pin, Jim. I haven't conversed in the thread lately but read it often.

[firstbatch]

Some may suggest that now that this instruction topic has achieved a pinned status it should come with a warning label......."this is not a magic bullet".........ROFL

Congrats Jim!

[wmblake2000]

Like everyone who has read, enjoyed and benefitted from this thread, great to see it pinned! Congrats to Jim &Kiwi2.

[Aithos]

[quote name='MrJones' timestamp='1430230096' post='11457677']

As a non-highly intelligent person I'd just like to thank you for coming in and warning me of the dangers of getting too caught up in a teaching proffesionals thread. I've only been on the internet since 95' and have fallen prey to many a thread that had me changing my golf swing, rooting for a win by an opposing team to secure a playoff spot, changing the breaks on my truck with a certain brand name brake, or going to see a movie that wasn't really that good.

Other people might read your post as being arrogant or slightly obnoxious, but not me. I recognize the need for an internet police made up of highly intellectual people like yourself, to keep guys like me out of harms way.

Thanks again. I'm sure you don't hear it enough. In fact, I'd be suprised if you've heard it at all.
[/quote]

While your intent is a little different this is exactly the sort of attitude and post that I'm talking about. How dare I come in an express an opinion you don't agree with. How dare I point out that maybe some people think certain posts in a teaching thread are counter-productive and can be demeaning and intimidating whether intentional or not. How dare people be less confident, less outspoken or more sensitive and let what other people say influence them or prevent them from posting.

Thanks for giving me such a great example of what I was talking about though, I appreciate the stark contrast between someone like Jim whose response was polite, respectful and genuine and this post that was tasteless and uncalled for. I forgive you though, maybe you don't realize how your attitude can affect other people and because nothing anyone says ever bothers you then that means no one else feels differently. Clearly nothing ever stopped you from posting! No doubt you got hundreds of messages thanking you for putting a stop to that guy expressing new and terrifying ideas like: "consider how other people who don't share your perspective might feel before you post" or "don't sensationalize because it detracts from the value by alienating people who don't have the same experience".

I've run into plenty of people who didn't post in threads or who were afraid to ask questions for fear of looking stupid or of being ridiculed. It's a lot more common than you may think. Also, my inboxes (here and on other communities where I'm active) are full of people thanking me for my posts. I get people PMing me constantly to tell me they appreciate my perspective and for speaking up in cases where many people would just take the easier route of ignoring a topic instead of standing up for what they think. I'm not shy about telling people what I think and if you have a problem with my tone or attitude then be mature about it and tell me what you think and why. Better yet, send me a PM and give me an opportunity to respond to make sure you're not just misinterpreting the intent before posting garbage like this.

Stay classy MrJones.

[Aithos]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1430288233' post='11463647']
Congrats with the pin
[/quote]

This.

Congrats Jim, I'm glad they recognized your contribution and gave you the nod by pinning your topic. You've shown yourself to be a stand-up guy and I apologize if I brought some negativity into your thread. That wasn't my intent and I'll take my leave so it doesn't go any further.

Best of luck in the future, I hope you achieve the success you deserve.

[Reasonability]

Well played - Kiwi and Jim.