The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1433765866' post='11709962']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433731904' post='11708820']Watching the new ASI video a few times from start to finish will likely uproot at least 90% of the Illusion from your subconscious. Then it just takes some practice getting used to the new feels.
[/quote]

Eagerly waiting for that video! Is it still on target for June 30th? Any hope for it coming out sooner?
[/quote]

Its possible, will have to see how the final editing goes the next two weeks.

[fmzip]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429134323' post='11368273']
Not trying to bust your balls or anything, let's just not get too carried away with how life altering this stuff is...
[/quote]

If you struggled your entire golfing career with sucking the arms in as I have, this is life altering......I've read, observed and tried a gazillion things. This discussion of the illusion has conveyed something that hasn't been conveyed before. If it doesn't pertain to you to that kind of degree, it certainly would [i][b]feel [/b][/i]irrelevant. Being so dismissive is freaking rude to someone who has put this much effort into one thread. Yes things can be an issue between your ears but until you have someone who can dedicate the time and effort to explain it in a detailed manner such as this, I'd likely be buried with my sucking in swing. If you could post me a link or two regarding a discussion that focuses this much about the arm motion in a golf swing, I'd like to read that too. Did you read this thread start to finish? If you don't have an issue with sucking your arms in, my guess is probably not!


I read every page of this thread from start to finish. Thanks Jim for your time and effort, not sure how you do it with the background noise. Guess the mental side of forum posting is something I will need to master as well. Will you be putting that on DVD too? Sign me UP!

Here's my progress. As much as I am still taking it inside, I can see much less. Just a few days ago, my flat shoulder swing was much much worse!

Need to work on balance tipping forward, staying flexed in the right knee and the list goes on. All in all, ball striking is much much better:

Day 1 [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7R7Dt6GUAc"]https://www.youtube....h?v=A7R7Dt6GUAc[/url]

Day 2 [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yp7WyXtrhU"]https://www.youtube....h?v=6Yp7WyXtrhU[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1433791489' post='11712728']
[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1429134323' post='11368273']
Not trying to bust your balls or anything, let's just not get too carried away with how life altering this stuff is...
[/quote]

If you struggled your entire golfing career with sucking the arms in as I have, this is life altering......I've read, observed and tried a gazillion things. This discussion of the illusion has conveyed something that hasn't been conveyed before. If it doesn't pertain to you to that kind of degree, it certainly would [i][b]feel [/b][/i]irrelevant. Being so dismissive is freaking rude to someone who has put this much effort into one thread. Yes things can be an issue between your ears but until you have someone who can dedicate the time and effort to explain it in a detailed manner such as this, I'd likely be buried with my sucking in swing. If you could post me a link or two regarding a discussion that focuses this much about the arm motion in a golf swing, I'd like to read that too. Did you read this thread start to finish? If you don't have an issue with sucking your arms in, my guess is probably not!


I read every page of this thread from start to finish. Thanks Jim for your time and effort, not sure how you do it with the background noise. Guess the mental side of forum posting is something I will need to master as well. Will you be putting that on DVD too? Sign me UP!

Here's my progress. As much as I am still taking it inside, I can see much less. Just a few days ago, my flat shoulder swing was much much worse!

Need to work on balance tipping forward, staying flexed in the right knee and the list goes on. All in all, ball striking is much much better:

Day 1 [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7R7Dt6GUAc"]https://www.youtube....h?v=A7R7Dt6GUAc[/url]

Day 2 [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yp7WyXtrhU"]https://www.youtube....h?v=6Yp7WyXtrhU[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for your feedback! And good to hear the ASI concept is helping you... always gratifying to hear about someone's breakthrough.

When a golfers stops "picturing" the golf swing in 2D and starts to see it in 3D, it truly is a mind-blowing experience.

[AndersUK]

I am new to the forum and took up the game seriously last year, having played very little previously. It would be fair to say that over the past year I have spent more time researching how to swing the club than I have actually played. Watched all of Monte’s videos, had a couple of local lessons and the odd online lesson etc.

I have always had the classic, suck in, lift up and then OTT on the downswing and nothing I tried would correct it to any marked degree, and I have tried most.

What I have discovered in this thread and applied is nothing short of extraordinary. It just can’t be this simple and yet left arm 45% to the right (approx.), up a little, wrist co*k whilst rotating and just drop the club whist rotating back and bingo. I was hitting it a little fat to start with so increased the speed of rotation and bam! Absolute effortless speed.

What the golfing public is generally taught versus what is actually required is profoundly different. I won’t go into great detail on the 2 lessons (different instructors) I had because they were beyond shocking and you have all heard it all before anyway. Simply put, they really, really didn’t know what to do to help. One had me trying to hold the lag like Sergio! And the other, well…..no comment.

I still have some way to go but others are commenting on the effortless distance. I see many golfing veterans content with 130 yard 7 irons because they are sold on the status quo. They have to swing really slow and smooth or the mechanics fall to pieces. This is where I was heading until I read this thread. It is now so easy to see all the manipulations on the range that many of us employ to have any chance of making contact with the ball.

For me the swing illusion is the fundamental of all fundamentals. With this, EVERYTHING else just appears to fall into place. I would go as far as to say it is more important that the grip. I have tried all types of grip but it had little effect on my swing. Now that I have discovered the swing illusion the other tips you tend to see relating to stance, posture, grip, weight ship etc. etc. NOW ACTUALLY WORK and have valid application.

I don’t have to worry about holding the lag or getting my right arm in the slot because it does so naturally! Good bye OTT. Now that I can kill the ball I need to work on accuracy and control but the game is so much more fun now.

Much appreciated to Jim and all of those who have contributed to this thread.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='AndersUK' timestamp='1433965575' post='11727284']
I am new to the forum and took up the game seriously last year, having played very little previously. It would be fair to say that over the past year I have spent more time researching how to swing the club than I have actually played. Watched all of Monte’s videos, had a couple of local lessons and the odd online lesson etc.

I have always had the classic, suck in, lift up and then OTT on the downswing and nothing I tried would correct it to any marked degree, and I have tried most.

What I have discovered in this thread and applied is nothing short of extraordinary. It just can’t be this simple and yet left arm 45% to the right (approx.), up a little, wrist co*k whilst rotating and just drop the club whist rotating back and bingo. I was hitting it a little fat to start with so increased the speed of rotation and bam! Absolute effortless speed.

What the golfing public is generally taught versus what is actually required is profoundly different. I won’t go into great detail on the 2 lessons (different instructors) I had because they were beyond shocking and you have all heard it all before anyway. Simply put, they really, really didn’t know what to do to help. One had me trying to hold the lag like Sergio! And the other, well…..no comment.

I still have some way to go but others are commenting on the effortless distance. I see many golfing veterans content with 130 yard 7 irons because they are sold on the status quo. They have to swing really slow and smooth or the mechanics fall to pieces. This is where I was heading until I read this thread. It is now so easy to see all the manipulations on the range that many of us employ to have any chance of making contact with the ball.

For me the swing illusion is the fundamental of all fundamentals. With this, EVERYTHING else just appears to fall into place. I would go as far as to say it is more important that the grip. I have tried all types of grip but it had little effect on my swing. Now that I have discovered the swing illusion the other tips you tend to see relating to stance, posture, grip, weight ship etc. etc. NOW ACTUALLY WORK and have valid application.

I don’t have to worry about holding the lag or getting my right arm in the slot because it does so naturally! Good bye OTT. Now that I can kill the ball I need to work on accuracy and control but the game is so much more fun now.

Much appreciated to Jim and all of those who have contributed to this thread.
[/quote]

Congrats on your insight and ballstriking breakthrough!

I agree that understanding how the arm and pivot sync up is even more influential than the grip (unless your grip is off the charts bad!).

[pusb365]

So after lots of encouraging mirror work over the course of the week, I finally headed up to the range to test it out and was full of confidence...

...oh man. that was the worst range session of my life. I hit pretty much everything off the toe. On the occasions where I made good contact I hit a slice. I even managed to miss the ball once and hit the bay partition divider twice!!

Back to the mirror it is then

[Reasonability]

Pusb,

I hear you loud and clear! Glad you're going back in again to "the lab". For what it's worth I see the swing much like a tripod. Change one leg on it (even though its a change for the better) then the "pictures" turn out worse. Change two legs.... geez now things are even "worser". Once all the legs are in the right place - voila. And as that starts to happen there will be breakthrough moments as all the adjusting takes place.

I will leave it to Jim to comment further. There are likely more that just three "legs" to the swing "tripod".... LOL. He is in a much better place than me to say what they are. All I wanted to offer was the support of one golfer to another in a way that suggests we've all stumbled onto to something new and struggled at first. The world we live in and the search for instant gratification --- well for a great many of us who have played this game for any length of time, we appreciate the guy who doesn't throw in the towel and perseveres through those physical, mental, emotional tunnels en route to a better golf swing. Hang in there!

[Hilts1969]

Is there still no video on the full swing available yet?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Hilts1969' timestamp='1434050882' post='11733678']
Is there still no video on the full swing available yet?
[/quote]

Yes - Module One Part A has been up on our site since mid-May. Module Two on the Arm Swing Illusion will be up in the next ten to fourteen days.

[pusb365]

So following my earlier post about my horror range session...

...I couldn't resist heading out on to the course. I didn't get to play last weekend and it was a beautiful evening so I couldn't help myself.

Well it was much much better than the range session. I was striking the ball quite nice actually, good contact and good distance. However everything still had a right to left ball flight.

I think I was swinging OTT and across with my arms, rather than leading the downswing with my hips, but I'm not sure.

[pusb365]

Hey Reasonability, thanks for your kind words man, very kind of you

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1434045924' post='11733120']
Pusb,

I hear you loud and clear! Glad you're going back in again to "the lab". For what it's worth I see the swing much like a tripod. Change one leg on it (even though its a change for the better) then the "pictures" turn out worse. Change two legs.... geez now things are even "worser". Once all the legs are in the right place - voila. And as that starts to happen there will be breakthrough moments as all the adjusting takes place.

I will leave it to Jim to comment further. There are likely more that just three "legs" to the swing "tripod".... LOL. He is in a much better place than me to say what they are. All I wanted to offer was the support of one golfer to another in a way that suggests we've all stumbled onto to something new and struggled at first. The world we live in and the search for instant gratification --- well for a great many of us who have played this game for any length of time, we appreciate the guy who doesn't throw in the towel and perseveres through those physical, mental, emotional tunnels en route to a better golf swing. Hang in there!
[/quote]

The answer is this. First - to all of you out there who struggle implementing swing changes, who are working without a teacher - you are making this a lot harder than it needs to be. You need real professional feedback, which can certainly shorten the learning curve by a lot. Two - yes, quite admirable that he is not giving up, and is going back to the mirror and hopefully videotape to see what he is actually doing, as opposed to what he thinks that he is doing.

[fmzip]

As Jim said, doing this solo isn't easy.

I've been using my iphone and a mini tripod at the range to record my swing. Helps to see if I am actually executing what I think I am doing.

Results will come, I certainly believe in this 100%. Any swing change is difficult more so for us extreme inside swingers! We are not used to and easier path on the downswing without lots of manipulation!

I am looking for to purchasing the video. Eventually will do a remote lesson but would rather absorb the video first.

[fmzip]

As Jim said, doing this solo isn't easy.

I've been using my iphone and a mini tripod at the range to record my swing. Helps to see if I am actually executing what I think I am doing.

Results will come, I certainly believe in this 100%. Any swing change is difficult more so for us extreme inside swingers! We are not used to an easy path on the downswing without lots of manipulation!

I am looking for to purchasing the video. Eventually will do a remote lesson but would rather absorb the video first.

I think I am getting it more and more each day

My practice motion: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAeyLyX8HHo"]https://www.youtube....h?v=SAeyLyX8HHo[/url]

Today's swing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23XR29XXCc0

[mmakowski]

Jim,

Thanks for all of your contributions here. I struggle badly with getting the clubhead inside early in the takeaway which I believe assists in the arms getting behind my body on the downswing. When I work on this I feel like I can do the back swing properly, but I still am struggling to keep the arms connected to my body/chest on the downswing. Could you provide some insight on where I should feel pressure to keep that connection and maintain the triangle? On the backswing I try to feel inward pressure between the shoulders, upper arms, and elbows while also feeling extension pressure in the arms. It also help me to keep lose wrist/hands so I don't suck the club inside. Are these the same pressures I should be feeling on the downswing as well? I've seen you say that you should feel the extension or east pressure to start the downsing as well but I feel like that helps to get my arms get behind the body. Is there something that I am missing? When I feel all of those pressure points to maintain the triangle I feel like I am losing power. Does anyone else have this same problem? Thanks in advance.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mmakowski' timestamp='1434123708' post='11738794']
Jim,

Thanks for all of your contributions here. I struggle badly with getting the clubhead inside early in the takeaway which I believe assists in the arms getting behind my body on the downswing. When I work on this I feel like I can do the back swing properly, but I still am struggling to keep the arms connected to my body/chest on the downswing. Could you provide some insight on where I should feel pressure to keep that connection and maintain the triangle? On the backswing I try to feel inward pressure between the shoulders, upper arms, and elbows while also feeling extension pressure in the arms. It also help me to keep lose wrist/hands so I don't suck the club inside. Are these the same pressures I should be feeling on the downswing as well? I've seen you say that you should feel the extension or east pressure to start the downsing as well but I feel like that helps to get my arms get behind the body. Is there something that I am missing? When I feel all of those pressure points to maintain the triangle I feel like I am losing power. Does anyone else have this same problem? Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

Great question!

There are more than one cause for arms trailing torso by too large a degree. First is obviously making sure you are not getting your arms "stuck" during the backswing, ie doing the pushaway correctly along with good Triangle pressures and a good Pivot. If you are getting stuck on Transition, the causes can be: 1. not using your Core to rotate left, ie only using hip rotation, which creates too much differential between your hips and shoulder girdle, in effect your arms are lagging behind too much and you are "late" at impact. Using the Core prevents that from happening. 2. firing the hips too early and/or too fast. 3. delaying the un-coiling of shoulder girdle too much during transition. Your shoulder girdle needs to unwind at about twice the rpm speed as your hips to "close the gap" between them by about 50% by P6. 4.Tilt Switching too late and/or too slowly. The Switch contributes to the arms getting down and in front more relative to your chest and if this is done too late or too slowly, the net effect - like too slow a shoulder girdle unwinding - is that your arms lag too much. 5. as you suggested, the stretch/extension pressure and sideways pressures in your Triangle need to stay intact during the forward swing for the Triangle to stay in the proper angle to your chest. If the pressures are too weak, the Triangle will "warp" and the arms will move rightwards of mid-line too much from lagpressure or inertia during transition.

"Going east" simply means the direction of the initial motion of the right arm angle at the elbow when it starts to straighten. That will not cause your arms to be stuck - quite the opposite!

Hope this helps a bit....or you could just take a remote lesson with me!

[mmakowski]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1434125011' post='11738982']
[quote name='mmakowski' timestamp='1434123708' post='11738794']
Jim,

Thanks for all of your contributions here. I struggle badly with getting the clubhead inside early in the takeaway which I believe assists in the arms getting behind my body on the downswing. When I work on this I feel like I can do the back swing properly, but I still am struggling to keep the arms connected to my body/chest on the downswing. Could you provide some insight on where I should feel pressure to keep that connection and maintain the triangle? On the backswing I try to feel inward pressure between the shoulders, upper arms, and elbows while also feeling extension pressure in the arms. It also help me to keep lose wrist/hands so I don't suck the club inside. Are these the same pressures I should be feeling on the downswing as well? I've seen you say that you should feel the extension or east pressure to start the downsing as well but I feel like that helps to get my arms get behind the body. Is there something that I am missing? When I feel all of those pressure points to maintain the triangle I feel like I am losing power. Does anyone else have this same problem? Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

Great question!

There are more than one cause for arms trailing torso by too large a degree. First is obviously making sure you are not getting your arms "stuck" during the backswing, ie doing the pushaway correctly along with good Triangle pressures and a good Pivot. If you are getting stuck on Transition, the causes can be: 1. not using your Core to rotate left, ie only using hip rotation, which creates too much differential between your hips and shoulder girdle, in effect your arms are lagging behind too much and you are "late" at impact. Using the Core prevents that from happening. 2. firing the hips too early and/or too fast. 3. delaying the un-coiling of shoulder girdle too much during transition. Your shoulder girdle needs to unwind at about twice the rpm speed as your hips to "close the gap" between them by about 50% by P6. 4.Tilt Switching too late and/or too slowly. The Switch contributes to the arms getting down and in front more relative to your chest and if this is done too late or too slowly, the net effect - like too slow a shoulder girdle unwinding - is that your arms lag too much. 5. as you suggested, the stretch/extension pressure and sideways pressures in your Triangle need to stay intact during the forward swing for the Triangle to stay in the proper angle to your chest. If the pressures are too weak, the Triangle will "warp" and the arms will move rightwards of mid-line too much from lagpressure or inertia during transition.

"Going east" simply means the direction of the initial motion of the right arm angle at the elbow when it starts to straighten. That will not cause your arms to be stuck - quite the opposite!

Hope this helps a bit....or you could just take a remote lesson with me!
[/quote]
Thanks, Jim. This is very helpful. I am thinking that either I am not using the core enough in transition or I am tilt switching too late or too slowly which doesn't get me in that get set position. I'm going to give these a shot and see how it goes. I guess I am having trouble keeping those pressures to maintain the triangle yet still having loose arms that you talk about. When I maintain the triangle on the downswing everything feels really stiff and lacks power. When I do my natural swing with a pivot stall/wipe across the ball I get a lot more power. This leads me to believe I have too much tension in the arms when I am forcing myself to maintain the triangle. I guess I need to find the common ground between both. There should be pressure to keep the elbows close but the lower arms should be loose?

I will definitely be reaching out directly to schedule a remote lesson in the coming weeks. Thanks again

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mmakowski' timestamp='1434129613' post='11739522']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1434125011' post='11738982']
[quote name='mmakowski' timestamp='1434123708' post='11738794']
Jim,

Thanks for all of your contributions here. I struggle badly with getting the clubhead inside early in the takeaway which I believe assists in the arms getting behind my body on the downswing. When I work on this I feel like I can do the back swing properly, but I still am struggling to keep the arms connected to my body/chest on the downswing. Could you provide some insight on where I should feel pressure to keep that connection and maintain the triangle? On the backswing I try to feel inward pressure between the shoulders, upper arms, and elbows while also feeling extension pressure in the arms. It also help me to keep lose wrist/hands so I don't suck the club inside. Are these the same pressures I should be feeling on the downswing as well? I've seen you say that you should feel the extension or east pressure to start the downsing as well but I feel like that helps to get my arms get behind the body. Is there something that I am missing? When I feel all of those pressure points to maintain the triangle I feel like I am losing power. Does anyone else have this same problem? Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

Great question!

There are more than one cause for arms trailing torso by too large a degree. First is obviously making sure you are not getting your arms "stuck" during the backswing, ie doing the pushaway correctly along with good Triangle pressures and a good Pivot. If you are getting stuck on Transition, the causes can be: 1. not using your Core to rotate left, ie only using hip rotation, which creates too much differential between your hips and shoulder girdle, in effect your arms are lagging behind too much and you are "late" at impact. Using the Core prevents that from happening. 2. firing the hips too early and/or too fast. 3. delaying the un-coiling of shoulder girdle too much during transition. Your shoulder girdle needs to unwind at about twice the rpm speed as your hips to "close the gap" between them by about 50% by P6. 4.Tilt Switching too late and/or too slowly. The Switch contributes to the arms getting down and in front more relative to your chest and if this is done too late or too slowly, the net effect - like too slow a shoulder girdle unwinding - is that your arms lag too much. 5. as you suggested, the stretch/extension pressure and sideways pressures in your Triangle need to stay intact during the forward swing for the Triangle to stay in the proper angle to your chest. If the pressures are too weak, the Triangle will "warp" and the arms will move rightwards of mid-line too much from lagpressure or inertia during transition.

"Going east" simply means the direction of the initial motion of the right arm angle at the elbow when it starts to straighten. That will not cause your arms to be stuck - quite the opposite!

Hope this helps a bit....or you could just take a remote lesson with me!
[/quote]
Thanks, Jim. This is very helpful. I am thinking that either I am not using the core enough in transition or I am tilt switching too late or too slowly which doesn't get me in that get set position. I'm going to give these a shot and see how it goes. I guess I am having trouble keeping those pressures to maintain the triangle yet still having loose arms that you talk about. When I maintain the triangle on the downswing everything feels really stiff and lacks power. When I do my natural swing with a pivot stall/wipe across the ball I get a lot more power. This leads me to believe I have too much tension in the arms when I am forcing myself to maintain the triangle. I guess I need to find the common ground between both. There should be pressure to keep the elbows close but the lower arms should be loose?

I will definitely be reaching out directly to schedule a remote lesson in the coming weeks. Thanks again
[/quote]


Yes on the arm tension. You want just enough "cohesive tension" in the Triangle to keep it from warping. The problem is, I cant tell anyone what that tension level is - you need in person coaching to get it right. It is quite subtle and the amount of tension is tiny. That tension should not leak into the wrists and forearms, or they wont function properly.

[Reasonability]

Jim,

What would you say is are most common ways your swing philosophy is compromised for those new to it? Adding excess shoulder protraction? Poor grip and/or stance? Tension? Lack of lower body stability? (I realize the answer is all of the above and more).

Just wondering if there is a reasonably short list of the most common banana peels en route to change management.

I would totally agree FWIW that going it alone is "possible".... just as is true of learning any bodily kinesthetic skill. But it is one long dark tunnel that doesn't have to be so difficult. Choosing to enter into a relationship with the instructor is immeasurably more efficient. It ends up paying for itself tenfold in lost balls, range balls, frustration, penalty strokes, untold hours of engraining bad habits, (all those banana peels). Hundreds of dollars and untold hours can be spent inefficiently otherwise.

Thanks as always Jim.

[mc3jack]

Yes on the arm tension. You want just enough "cohesive tension" in the Triangle to keep it from warping. The problem is, I cant tell anyone what that tension level is - you need in person coaching to get it right. It is quite subtle and the amount of tension is tiny. That tension should not leak into the wrists and forearms, or they wont function properly.

___

Jim, I believe Ben Hogan solved the arm tension thing for those trying to figure it out by themselves....at least it works for me hahahaha..... and here's Ben's method: He 'squeezed' his arms in a way that pointed the insides of his elbows (they're like mini-armpits) skyward...from an arms-extended perspective.

I used to be a volleyball player, and this is similar to how defenders create a platform for the ball to bounce off when they're digging a spike. The method keeps the arms 'soft', provides a stable triangle in front of the chest, and seems to discourage waving the triangle sideways to catch the spike (that's a poor move in VB).

Ben could *really* turn his elbows in, so much that he'd try to make his forearms seem like one unit. Hoganheads know what picture I'm talking about.

Anyway. For guys trying to get the feeling of arms connected but not tense, this Hogan-style 'squeeze' that causes the elbows to rotate down (pointing at the hips) may work for some. It also helps set the right elbow in a nice position to fold without 'flying'.

[fmzip]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433778707' post='11711138']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1433765866' post='11709962']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433731904' post='11708820']Watching the new ASI video a few times from start to finish will likely uproot at least 90% of the Illusion from your subconscious. Then it just takes some practice getting used to the new feels.
[/quote]

Eagerly waiting for that video! Is it still on target for June 30th? Any hope for it coming out sooner?
[/quote]

Its possible, will have to see how the final editing goes the next two weeks.
[/quote]

Hi Jim,

Any update on the video?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1434549834' post='11768414']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433778707' post='11711138']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1433765866' post='11709962']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433731904' post='11708820']Watching the new ASI video a few times from start to finish will likely uproot at least 90% of the Illusion from your subconscious. Then it just takes some practice getting used to the new feels.
[/quote]

Eagerly waiting for that video! Is it still on target for June 30th? Any hope for it coming out sooner?
[/quote]

Its possible, will have to see how the final editing goes the next two weeks.
[/quote]

Hi Jim,

Any update on the video?
[/quote]


Spoke last night with my video editor. I think 7-10 days or so it will be up, June 30 at latest. Two hours and 15 minutes viewing time.

I am very happy with it. If I may say so, the content is excellent.....a fantastic introduction to viewing the swing in true 3 dimensions. it will clear up 90% of the confusion, mis-perceptions and "mystery" about the golf swing for anyone who watches it.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1434479661' post='11763112']
Yes on the arm tension. You want just enough "cohesive tension" in the Triangle to keep it from warping. The problem is, I cant tell anyone what that tension level is - you need in person coaching to get it right. It is quite subtle and the amount of tension is tiny. That tension should not leak into the wrists and forearms, or they wont function properly.

___

Jim, I believe Ben Hogan solved the arm tension thing for those trying to figure it out by themselves....at least it works for me hahahaha..... and here's Ben's method: He 'squeezed' his arms in a way that pointed the insides of his elbows (they're like mini-armpits) skyward...from an arms-extended perspective.

I used to be a volleyball player, and this is similar to how defenders create a platform for the ball to bounce off when they're digging a spike. The method keeps the arms 'soft', provides a stable triangle in front of the chest, and seems to discourage waving the triangle sideways to catch the spike (that's a poor move in VB).

Ben could *really* turn his elbows in, so much that he'd try to make his forearms seem like one unit. Hoganheads know what picture I'm talking about.

Anyway. For guys trying to get the feeling of arms connected but not tense, this Hogan-style 'squeeze' that causes the elbows to rotate down (pointing at the hips) may work for some. It also helps set the right elbow in a nice position to fold without 'flying'.
[/quote]

My take on this is that most folks get the Hogan elbow position wrong. The elbow pits are not facing the sky 90 degrees to the ground, that would not be advisable, too much tension and very likely they would rotate back to a more natural position. If you look in Five Lessons, he has the lines drawn from the elbow pits upwards, to show they are on about a 45 degree angle to the sky. With elbows pointing to the hip sockets. Yes - it does help pre-set the proper folding of the right elbow.

The position of elbow pits is not the same thing as the actual sideways or what Hogan called "inward" pressure. That pressure is very gently squeezing laterally from armpits to hands, the two arms toward each other.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1434470214' post='11762068']
Jim,

What would you say is are most common ways your swing philosophy is compromised for those new to it? Adding excess shoulder protraction? Poor grip and/or stance? Tension? Lack of lower body stability? (I realize the answer is all of the above and more).

Just wondering if there is a reasonably short list of the most common banana peels en route to change management.

I would totally agree FWIW that going it alone is "possible".... just as is true of learning any bodily kinesthetic skill. But it is one long dark tunnel that doesn't have to be so difficult. Choosing to enter into a relationship with the instructor is immeasurably more efficient. It ends up paying for itself tenfold in lost balls, range balls, frustration, penalty strokes, untold hours of engraining bad habits, (all those banana peels). Hundreds of dollars and untold hours can be spent inefficiently otherwise.

Thanks as always Jim.
[/quote]

That could be a whole thread unto itself!

The tough thing about teaching golf is that you have to prioritize what flaws need to be worked on first, and what laws of body and club motion that are missing need to be prioritized first. So that is always a totally individual issue.

But I can make some general observations of what issues most of my mid to high handicap students struggle with the most, in terms of influence on their ball flight.

On the purely physical side, the first thing I look at is the golfers overall Balance, especially feet to ground connection, and how the energy of the body flows from ground up and from core to hands/arms/wrists and then to clubhead. If someone is really off balance, no point in working on anything else.

Then I look at Setup. If any one of the many elements there is missing or way off, I fix that. Has a huge influence on ball flight and is easy to fix - no athletic ability required!

Next; grip position, grip pressure, and aim. Very common for folks to be way off in those three elements. Grip affects face angle, grip pressure affects Release (along with grip position) and aim affects everything.

On the more mental side of ballstriking, I watch and ask questions to find out how the student perceives how the club should move in the swing. There are design characteristics built-in to the club, that require it to move according to Six Laws. Very common for students to have one or more of those Laws missing. Just knowing how it should move is often a great starting point. No point in working on mechanics/body motion if the golfer's understanding of the club motion if flawed.

I also look to see if any of the following toxic Impulses are happening: Hit, Steering, Scooping or Helping Out at Impact. Again - those are 100% mental in root cause, NOT mechanical - but they create terrible mechanics.

And on the purely mental side, I ask the student where his mind is focused. Usually it is either wandering all over the place or focused on the wrong thing, ie something that tends to make one flinch.

[Reasonability]

Outstanding answer Jim. Seems like so many of us are guilty of "fixing" something in mid-swing such as OTT and such - when there are root causes going all the way back to the very things you pointed out. And further to your point - the very things you point out are all conceptual to most of us. We can't easily find balance (example) on our own. Grip is another one - its a little over-simplified to just point the V's somewhere given the fact that there are uncountable ways a golfer can point V's - and STILL be way off in terms of the way the handle lays more in the fingers versus the palms. Moving form concept to something actionable and meaningful requires help.

Glad the vid is going well. No doubt it will be a nice product.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1434555172' post='11768980']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1434479661' post='11763112']
Yes on the arm tension. You want just enough "cohesive tension" in the Triangle to keep it from warping. The problem is, I cant tell anyone what that tension level is - you need in person coaching to get it right. It is quite subtle and the amount of tension is tiny. That tension should not leak into the wrists and forearms, or they wont function properly.

___

Jim, I believe Ben Hogan solved the arm tension thing for those trying to figure it out by themselves....at least it works for me hahahaha..... and here's Ben's method: He 'squeezed' his arms in a way that pointed the insides of his elbows (they're like mini-armpits) skyward...from an arms-extended perspective.

I used to be a volleyball player, and this is similar to how defenders create a platform for the ball to bounce off when they're digging a spike. The method keeps the arms 'soft', provides a stable triangle in front of the chest, and seems to discourage waving the triangle sideways to catch the spike (that's a poor move in VB).

Ben could *really* turn his elbows in, so much that he'd try to make his forearms seem like one unit. Hoganheads know what picture I'm talking about.

Anyway. For guys trying to get the feeling of arms connected but not tense, this Hogan-style 'squeeze' that causes the elbows to rotate down (pointing at the hips) may work for some. It also helps set the right elbow in a nice position to fold without 'flying'.
[/quote]

My take on this is that most folks get the Hogan elbow position wrong. The elbow pits are not facing the sky 90 degrees to the ground, that would not be advisable, too much tension and very likely they would rotate back to a more natural position. If you look in Five Lessons, he has the lines drawn from the elbow pits upwards, to show they are on about a 45 degree angle to the sky. With elbows pointing to the hip sockets. Yes - it does help pre-set the proper folding of the right elbow.

The position of elbow pits is not the same thing as the actual sideways or what Hogan called "inward" pressure. That pressure is very gently squeezing laterally from armpits to hands, the two arms toward each other.
[/quote]

Great clarification Jim . . . I was wondering what you thot about this bit of Hogan arcana. People can't actually get their elbows rotated so far downward (elbow pits skyward) without shrugging and setting their arms over their pectorals first. Most swing models (including yours) have the arms set more beside the pecs, I believe. The best one can do comfortably from that position is . . . 45 degree elbow rotation as you described.

Another method: I borrowed a putting tip to get the feel of inward arm pressure . . . it's the one where the golfer pretends to hold a tennis ball (gently!) in between their forearms during the stroke. Got used to doing that on the green, then incorporated that mild arm pressure in my full swing.

And speaking of putting . . . I've noticed that the thoracic tilts I've learned in your swing method work verrrrrrrrrrry good for motoring putting and chipping strokes. . . .where the ASI causes much grief and frustration, methinks.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1434562413' post='11769858']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1434555172' post='11768980']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1434479661' post='11763112']
Yes on the arm tension. You want just enough "cohesive tension" in the Triangle to keep it from warping. The problem is, I cant tell anyone what that tension level is - you need in person coaching to get it right. It is quite subtle and the amount of tension is tiny. That tension should not leak into the wrists and forearms, or they wont function properly.

___

Jim, I believe Ben Hogan solved the arm tension thing for those trying to figure it out by themselves....at least it works for me hahahaha..... and here's Ben's method: He 'squeezed' his arms in a way that pointed the insides of his elbows (they're like mini-armpits) skyward...from an arms-extended perspective.

I used to be a volleyball player, and this is similar to how defenders create a platform for the ball to bounce off when they're digging a spike. The method keeps the arms 'soft', provides a stable triangle in front of the chest, and seems to discourage waving the triangle sideways to catch the spike (that's a poor move in VB).

Ben could *really* turn his elbows in, so much that he'd try to make his forearms seem like one unit. Hoganheads know what picture I'm talking about.

Anyway. For guys trying to get the feeling of arms connected but not tense, this Hogan-style 'squeeze' that causes the elbows to rotate down (pointing at the hips) may work for some. It also helps set the right elbow in a nice position to fold without 'flying'.
[/quote]

My take on this is that most folks get the Hogan elbow position wrong. The elbow pits are not facing the sky 90 degrees to the ground, that would not be advisable, too much tension and very likely they would rotate back to a more natural position. If you look in Five Lessons, he has the lines drawn from the elbow pits upwards, to show they are on about a 45 degree angle to the sky. With elbows pointing to the hip sockets. Yes - it does help pre-set the proper folding of the right elbow.

The position of elbow pits is not the same thing as the actual sideways or what Hogan called "inward" pressure. That pressure is very gently squeezing laterally from armpits to hands, the two arms toward each other.
[/quote]

Great clarification Jim . . . I was wondering what you thot about this bit of Hogan arcana. People can't actually get their elbows rotated so far downward (elbow pits skyward) without shrugging and setting their arms over their pectorals first. Most swing models (including yours) have the arms set more beside the pecs, I believe. The best one can do comfortably from that position is . . . 45 degree elbow rotation as you described.

Another method: I borrowed a putting tip to get the feel of inward arm pressure . . . it's the one where the golfer pretends to hold a tennis ball (gently!) in between their forearms during the stroke. Got used to doing that on the green, then incorporated that mild arm pressure in my full swing.

And speaking of putting . . . I've noticed that the thoracic tilts I've learned in your swing method work verrrrrrrrrrry good for motoring putting and chipping strokes. . . .where the ASI causes much grief and frustration, methinks.
[/quote]

My model for arms location is mostly on the pecs, ie "on top", but not 100%, kind of 75% on top, 25% on the sides, for most golfers, ie those of average build and flexibility. Guys with deep barrel chests and women with large breasts need to put them on the sides.

Yes - the shoulder girdle mid-thoracic rocking is huge for putting and chipping.

[ofortuna]

Thank you Mr. Waldron for this enlightening thread. To a long time arm and wrist flipper, you have truly opened my eyes. My concept of the swing was that arms/hands/clubhead all lag passively behind the body but now I understand the concept of the non collapsing Triangle and how it stays in front of the body while the body turns. Only the club lags. Might be obvious to some but it wasn't to me.

After working on your suggested backswing drills at home for the last couple weeks, I've been working on your waist to waist drill and I'm feeling some sync for the first time between my body/arms.

One question, you said with the longer clubs there can be up to 75 degree angle between the left arm and the chest. So when hitting the driver do you mean that your body will be that much more open at impact?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1434567358' post='11770468']
Thank you Mr. Waldron for this enlightening thread. To a long time arm and wrist flipper, you have truly opened my eyes. My concept of the swing was that arms/hands/clubhead all lag passively behind the body but now I understand the concept of the non collapsing Triangle and how it stays in front of the body while the body turns. Only the club lags. Might be obvious to some but it wasn't to me.

After working on your suggested backswing drills at home for the last couple weeks, I've been working on your waist to waist drill and I'm feeling some sync for the first time between my body/arms.

One question, you said with the longer clubs there can be up to 75 degree angle between the left arm and the chest. So when hitting the driver do you mean that your body will be that much more open at impact?
[/quote]

Good to hear it is helping you! I love that positive feedback from folks!

Yes - the longer the club, the more open your shoulder girdle should be at impact, for several reasons, but yes - you have more arm to chest angle with a longer club so you need to be more open. Model is around 45-55 degrees open hips at impact with driver, 30-35 degrees open shoulder girdle.

[fmzip]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1434554935' post='11768952']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1434549834' post='11768414']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433778707' post='11711138']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1433765866' post='11709962']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1433731904' post='11708820']Watching the new ASI video a few times from start to finish will likely uproot at least 90% of the Illusion from your subconscious. Then it just takes some practice getting used to the new feels.
[/quote]

Eagerly waiting for that video! Is it still on target for June 30th? Any hope for it coming out sooner?
[/quote]

Its possible, will have to see how the final editing goes the next two weeks.
[/quote]

Hi Jim,

Any update on the video?
[/quote]


Spoke last night with my video editor. I think 7-10 days or so it will be up, June 30 at latest. Two hours and 15 minutes viewing time.

I am very happy with it. If I may say so, the content is excellent.....a fantastic introduction to viewing the swing in true 3 dimensions. it will clear up 90% of the confusion, mis-perceptions and "mystery" about the golf swing for anyone who watches it.
[/quote]

Hi Jim,

Any update?