Charlie beljan Xanax

[JaxBeachNole]

The use of a drug like Xanax or others very similar are usually to help bring someone from emergency or near emergency status to a more sable level. Sometimes they can be prescribed to take small doses for a longer period systematically or as needed. After a prescription like this takes effect in removing the crisis level from the equation general behavior therapy is implemented. That's where work gets done.

Xanax, pain pills, etc can be extremely addictive so the therapy becomes very important

[gatoreric]

[quote name='qrispy2' timestamp='1368592060' post='7038174']
Beljan is a bit of a tool.
He should eat like a grown up before he moves onto drugs to help with his anxiety/panic issues.
I have been to the emergency room once with a severe panic attack so I am not laughing or condemning him.
Just saying that a grown man who is afraid to eat anything besides a Subway sandwich and doesn't eat while playing has some issues to overcome before drugs are the answer.
So when he eats like a regular man who plays a sport/game for a living then we can talk about the next steps.
http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2013/01/beljan-not-eating-may-have-led-to-anxiety-attack.html
[/quote]

I guess either I am a tool, or perhaps, you are. I've never read that article until you posted. The panic things vary for most people, but it sounds like me and Charlie have very similar ones. I have some form of acid reflux which triggers the panic attacks. Killer combo at times. You know you need to eat to perform, yet the thought of that food helps create the panic. It's quite the conundrum. I have read that this is what was causing Bubba's panic attack (I only found that article when Charlie had his public bout with one and I researched it some more) While I think that me and Charlie both would agree that these dreaded things are not a normal way to live and to play golf, your terms and general tone are part of the problem for the many people who have this issue. You use terms like "eat like a grown up" and questioning in a negative tone his need to grow up or eat like a "regular" man. Using this kinda lingo just shows the ignorance and lack of understanding of what Charlie and countless others deal with. My buddy I golf with can pick up a hot dog or a slice of pizza at the turn and be just fine. I can't because it can lead to a pain attack. Weird and odd I know, but also not me just being a child and not wanting to eat. These things can be totally disabling at times. While I agree they are not normal it sure doesn't mean that I'm not a grown man or some kind of freak. You think Charlie wanted to have that kind of public display of what he was going through? Cameras rolling while he was laid out in the grass freaking out. The article you read did say that Charlie was eating better and working on that aspect which I applaud immensely. That's the route I chose along with some other things because I did not want to be medicated. But I also am not trying to make a living traveling all over playing golf. If it helps him not have those things then that is his choice. I'm thankful that Charlie has opened up and talked about his issue and is taking steps to get better. Kind of give others who deal with it some hope.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1368581137' post='7036852']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368572071' post='7035724']
Some of you people are freakin' priceless.
[/quote]

I totally understand that if you don't experience this first hand, or have family members that experience this, that it sounds like you just need to man up and get over it or something. I can assure you, it's nothing like that, and to make fun of anyone that has these health issues would be like making fun of someone that has asthma, or diabetes, or high blood pressure, etc. It's a real health condition that requires treatment. Many vets that come home from service have PTSD and have panic attacks for a while before they get help, and because of peoples ignorance to these things, are afraid there's a stigma associated with mental health conditions, and they live a life suffering badly. I commend this player for being so honest about his situation and condition.
[/quote]

Wow...totally unnecessary as I have the same medically-diagnosed condition. Where do you get off jumping to conclusions? My comment was in reference to the idiots who think that this [i]isn't[/i] a valid condition.

I hope you take this in good stride when I suggest that maybe you should go "take a pill."

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1368586975' post='7037692']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368572071' post='7035724']
Some of you people are freakin' priceless.
[/quote]

[b]I think I've read before that you take Xanax or similar?[/b] I think it comes down to two types of people; either you've had panic attacks/been very close to someone that has or you haven't and just don't understand. I'm very lucky that I have never had one personally and likely never will but very close to someone that has them somewhat frequently and it scares me to death watching it happen that I can't even imagine what it's like to actually be the one going through it.

I think though that there is a fine line with medication and what justifies actually needing it and using it recreationally or for an advantage in the workplace. There is quite an epidemic in the United States right now with medication and making it to the street for recreation... whether its Xanax, Valium, or pain pills, etc it has become a huge problem. The people that truly need them and use them correctly are not the issue but there are tons of people that work the system for medication/prescriptions they don't truly need to profit from, use recreationally or in athletes case to excel and make their craft easier. I've seen way too many lives ruined from abusing prescription medication for this not to hit home. I'll be honest I was a bit surprised to see that in the recent Golf Digest WITB section. I'm not offended at all by it but it certainly did surprise me.

At the end of the day the only person that can make that call whether or not the medication is needed are the individual combined with the doctors consent.
[/quote]

My meds aren't any of your business J.W., especially as I don't take Xanax. I do take some other stuff, and yeah, I did mention that in another thread (where I think I was defending the use of prescription anti-anxiety medication in pro athletes - for all you who missed that), but that is my choice to bring up or not in any given thread - not yours.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.

[gatoreric]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368628018' post='7039922']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.
[/quote]
I'm fairly new to the site compared to most. I agreed with what he said based on the information I had. I was just wondering what your [size=4]"[color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Some of you people are freakin' priceless" comment was about. It came without any context except following mine and others posts. I would think you could see how it may have appeared to have been insensitive. [/background][/color][/size]

[Lord Helmet]

[quote name='gatoreric' timestamp='1368628683' post='7040028']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368628018' post='7039922']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.
[/quote]
I'm fairly new to the site compared to most. I agreed with what he said based on the information I had. I was just wondering what your [size=4]"[color=#282828][background=rgb(247,247,247)]Some of you people are freakin' priceless" comment was about. It came without any context except following mine and others posts. I would think you could see how it may have appeared to have been insensitive. [/background][/color][/size]
[/quote]

no worries...madgolfer obviously hasnt taken his meds this AM yet....



Im kidding madgolfer!!!!

[hoganfan924]

In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368629514' post='7040130']
In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?
[/quote]

Yes sir I definitely do!

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368629514' post='7040130']
In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?
[/quote]

Slippery slope arguments are a B- persuasive technique, generally used by politicians who would like to dodge looking deeper into certain moral issues during election years. It really is alarming at how many people repeat what they hear on tv.

So long as J.W. is in the business of outing medical prescriptions that people are taking in a national forum...guess what? I have issues with low T as well. I had a count of 90 and I inject about 250-300 per week. Before I started treatment, the only thing that got me off the couch is the need to take a piss. I also slept 13-15 hours a day. Are you really telling me that because I inject testosterone and gobble anti-anxiety meds like they are going out of style (they aren't) that I now have some competitive advantage against either Micheel or Beljan when they [i]aren't[/i] taking their meds?

This is a quality of life thing, not some bit of fodder for a junior high school debate club. We don't have to worry about BS "slippery slope" arguments because we have doctors and other professional medical staff to do that for us.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1368629366' post='7040110']
[quote name='gatoreric' timestamp='1368628683' post='7040028']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368628018' post='7039922']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.
[/quote]
I'm fairly new to the site compared to most. I agreed with what he said based on the information I had. I was just wondering what your [size=4]"[color=#282828][background=rgb(247,247,247)]Some of you people are freakin' priceless" comment was about. It came without any context except following mine and others posts. I would think you could see how it may have appeared to have been insensitive. [/background][/color][/size]
[/quote]

no worries...madgolfer obviously hasnt taken his meds this AM yet....



Im kidding madgolfer!!!!
[/quote]

I'm watching you.

edit: Oh, right...just kidding.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='gatoreric' timestamp='1368628683' post='7040028']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368628018' post='7039922']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.
[/quote]
I'm fairly new to the site compared to most. I agreed with what he said based on the information I had. I was just wondering what your [size=4]"[color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Some of you people are freakin' priceless" comment was about. It came without any context except following mine and others posts. I would think you could see how it may have appeared to have been insensitive. [/background][/color][/size]
[/quote]

Uh-huh. Why not look at it a different way. You could have made one of two judgments about what I said:

1) MadGolfer [u]must be[/u] taking the side of everyone who is downing on folks who need to take meds to improve their quality of life.

2) MadGolfer [u]couldn't possibly be[/u] taking the side of everyone who is downing on folks who need to take meds to improve their quality of life.


Now ask yourself why you chose to think the worst about me.

[Lord Helmet]

"I'm watching you."

Thats ok, Im watching you watch me.

I knew you were joking!

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1368631369' post='7040404']
"I'm watching you."

Thats ok, Im watching you watch me.
[/quote]

Poor bastxxx.

[gatoreric]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368631354' post='7040400']
[quote name='gatoreric' timestamp='1368628683' post='7040028']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368628018' post='7039922']
[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1368583572' post='7037200']
Yes indeed, golfpros1! Well said.
[/quote]

Go back and read what I have just posted and see if you still think it is "well-said."

At what point in my entire time on this site have I ever come across to you people as being intolerant of other peoples medical conditions? Geez.
[/quote]
I'm fairly new to the site compared to most. I agreed with what he said based on the information I had. I was just wondering what your "[color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Some of you people are freakin' priceless" comment was about. It came without any context except following mine and others posts. I would think you could see how it may have appeared to have been insensitive. [/background][/color]
[/quote]

Uh-huh. Why not look at it a different way. You could have made one of two judgments about what I said:

1) MadGolfer [u]must be[/u] taking the side of everyone who is downing on folks who need to take meds to improve their quality of life.

2) MadGolfer [u]couldn't possibly be[/u] taking the side of everyone who is downing on folks who need to take meds to improve their quality of life.


Now ask yourself why you chose to think the worst about me.
[/quote]
Probably because of the placement of your post immediately following mine. That's all. Nothing more.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368630790' post='7040302']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368629514' post='7040130']
In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?
[/quote]

Slippery slope arguments are a B- persuasive technique, generally used by politicians who would like to dodge looking deeper into certain moral issues during election years. It really is alarming at how many people repeat what they hear on tv.

So long as J.W. is in the business of outing medical prescriptions that people are taking in a national forum...guess what? I have issues with low T as well. I had a count of 90 and I inject about 250-300 per week. Before I started treatment, the only thing that got me off the couch is the need to take a piss. I also slept 13-15 hours a day. Are you really telling me that because I inject testosterone and gobble anti-anxiety meds like they are going out of style (they aren't) that I now have some competitive advantage against either Micheel or Beljan when they [i]aren't[/i] taking their meds?

This is a quality of life thing, not some bit of fodder for a junior high school debate club. We don't have to worry about BS "slippery slope" arguments because we have doctors and other professional medical staff to do that for us.
[/quote]

It's just reality Mad...people are people and sometimes they will compromise their own reality to get ahead in their respective field.

Not saying Micheel is or that it's very common...but no question if allowed or if there's room for it some folks will do it.

[Lord Helmet]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368631634' post='7040440']
[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1368631369' post='7040404']
"I'm watching you."

Thats ok, Im watching you watch me.
[/quote]

Poor bastxxx.
[/quote]

What else am I gonna do? Im still waiting for my new irons to show up....work sucks!

[Dizz]

I deleted my posts, I was being sensitive to the issue of anxiety and you took it completely the wrong way. You brought it up in a previous thread and made it "public" in a national forum... not me. I'm not looking for a fight whatsoever. I am moving on from this thread and will say I just was surprised that Golf Digest put that in Beljan's WITB page.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368630790' post='7040302']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368629514' post='7040130']
In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?
[/quote]

Slippery slope arguments are a B- persuasive technique, generally used by politicians who would like to dodge looking deeper into certain moral issues during election years. It really is alarming at how many people repeat what they hear on tv.

So long as J.W. is in the business of outing medical prescriptions that people are taking in a national forum...guess what? I have issues with low T as well. I had a count of 90 and I inject about 250-300 per week. Before I started treatment, the only thing that got me off the couch is the need to take a piss. I also slept 13-15 hours a day. [b]Are you really telling me that because I inject testosterone and gobble anti-anxiety meds like they are going out of style (they aren't) that I now have some competitive advantage against either Micheel or Beljan when they [i]aren't[/i] taking their meds?[/b]

This is a quality of life thing, not some bit of fodder for a junior high school debate club. We don't have to worry about BS "slippery slope" arguments because we have doctors and other professional medical staff to do that for us.
[/quote]

[b]If you played in the PGA tour, of course you would![/b]

There's a whole other can of worms with this as well that most Doctors won't touch. Some Doctors that are well informed believe that supplementation with a combo of Nandralone and Winstrol is actually healthier than Testosterone, since synthetic Test much more easily aromatizes into estrogen (causing obvious side effects in men). But I'm quite sure that the PGA tour wouldn't allow Micheel to supplement with those even if they were proven to be safer simply because of the P.C. stigma associated with "Steroids."

My personal view is that there should be no restrictions in golf as to supplementation, as unrealistic as that is in today's climate. The stupid deer antler thing with Singh was ridiculous. Golf is a lot more about skill, strategy, decision making and controlling nerves at the pro level than other sports and a lot less about physicality. Let the players use what they want and suffer the consequences. I do understand how this can be seen as unfair to those who choose not to. [u]But as long as the PGA tour is going to have a banned substance list, and then give exemptions to the list, it does have the potential of giving some players an advantage.[/u]

I don't think many people really care if Charlie is taking Xanax because he's a B level player. But what if tomorrow Sergio proclaims that he has an anxiety disorder and starts taking it and then goes out and wins the grand slam. Think people might get interested then?

Another: if Micheel can supplement with Test, why can't a guy who is "low normal," say 350 be allowed to supplement up to a "high normal" 900?

Another example, it was well know in the 80's and 90's that beta blockers were great for calming nerves. A lot of precision sport athletes were on them (like archers and shooters). So why should only the guys that had high blood pressure be allowed to use them?

The "old school" argument would be that if you have hormonal, psychological or other "issues" that don't allow you to be competitive, that's just part of sport and one factor that separates also-rans from the greats. A huge part of competitive golf is being able to control your nerves and emotions so why should people with these problems feel entitled to compete by taking drugs? (playing devil's advocate here as I see both sides)

I'm 5'6" and can't jump. I never felt entitled to take HGH so that I'd grow tall and have a better chance at becoming a basketball player. A midget is never going to hold the world high jump record. That's just too bad. We all aren't given the same gifts.

[Nick4DX]

Like Phil Mickelson I have psoriatic arthritis. Without Humira and prescription pain medicine there is no way that I would be able to swing a golf club. I have midsize grips as I can't completely close my hands except on my best days. To me there's no difference in Charlie Beljan taking Xanax in order to make his way around the course than me taking what I do to get through my day. Yes, some meds are addictive, but it has also been shown that the mental aspect of addiction doesn't come into play to the same degree in people who take medication for a medically diagnosed condition. Because of the pain that develops in my joints every night I take Vicodin every morning. If my pain can be controlled by aspirin or ibuprofen during the day I don't take it again until the next day. I would love to be pain free and never have to take it again but that's not in the cards.

[hoganfan924]

Let's not forget the sad case of Doug Barron. He was banned for a year from the PGA tour for doing exactly the same thing that Micheel does, taking supplemental Testosterone. His T level was less than 80 before. He got banned because he didn't get a "therapeutic use" exemption in advance because his level was up to around 300 after he was already on supplemental Test. I guess "some pigs are more equal than others."

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368632862' post='7040616']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1368630790' post='7040302']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368629514' post='7040130']
In case anyone was mistaken as to my position on this issue. I don't care if Belgian takes Xanax or not, I just think that it raises legitimate concerns about his dosage and other golfers going to less than scrupulous Doctors to get their favorable diagnosis so that they can do something similar vs. other guys who get extremely nervous but aren't clinically diagnosed as having an anxiety disorder. I see a million shades of gray here, not black and white. Where is the line drawn? That's always the problem with these kind of issues.

Here's an analagous issue with Shawn Micheel. He takes supplemental testosterone. I know a bit about testosterone supplementation. The "normal range" on a standard blood test for an adult male is 300-1100 (can't remember the units). THAT is a [b]HUGE[/b] range. So let's say Micheel tested at 150 and was feeling lethargic. His doctor says, we'll get approval from the PGA tour for a medical exemption to allow you to supplement (which is what he did).

Let's say he starts on lower dosage and gets his level to 400. But he still doesn't feel like he did at 20 years old so now he goes back to the doctor and ups the dosage and gets his level to say 900. He feels a lot better and adds 10 or 15 lbs of muscle because now he's got the energy to workout and the higher Test is helping him add some muscle. Now his supplemented level is probably twice what a lot of other guys on tour are at, but he's still considered in the "normal range," whereas the other guys at 350, or 400 aren't allowed to supplement. Is that acceptable? Isn't this giving him a competitive advantage?

See how this can become a slippery slope?
[/quote]

Slippery slope arguments are a B- persuasive technique, generally used by politicians who would like to dodge looking deeper into certain moral issues during election years. It really is alarming at how many people repeat what they hear on tv.

So long as J.W. is in the business of outing medical prescriptions that people are taking in a national forum...guess what? I have issues with low T as well. I had a count of 90 and I inject about 250-300 per week. Before I started treatment, the only thing that got me off the couch is the need to take a piss. I also slept 13-15 hours a day. [b]Are you really telling me that because I inject testosterone and gobble anti-anxiety meds like they are going out of style (they aren't) that I now have some competitive advantage against either Micheel or Beljan when they [i]aren't[/i] taking their meds?[/b]

This is a quality of life thing, not some bit of fodder for a junior high school debate club. We don't have to worry about BS "slippery slope" arguments because we have doctors and other professional medical staff to do that for us.
[/quote]

[b]If you played in the PGA tour, of course you would![/b]

[b]There's a whole other can of worms with this as well that most Doctors won't touch. Some Doctors that are well informed believe that supplementation with a combo of Nandralone and Winstrol is actually healthier than Testosterone, since synthetic Test much more easily aromatizes into estrogen (causing obvious side effects in men).[/b] But I'm quite sure that the PGA tour wouldn't allow Micheel to supplement with those even if they were proven to be safer simply because of the P.C. stigma associated with "Steroids."

My personal view is that there should be no restrictions in golf as to supplementation, as unrealistic as that is in today's climate. The stupid deer antler thing with Singh was ridiculous. Golf is a lot more about skill, strategy, decision making and controlling nerves at the pro level than other sports and a lot less about physicality. Let the players use what they want and suffer the consequences. I do understand how this can be seen as unfair to those who choose not to. [u]But as long as the PGA tour is going to have a banned substance list, and then give exemptions to the list, it does have the potential of giving some players an advantage.[/u]

I don't think many people really care if Charlie is taking Xanax because he's a B level player. But what if tomorrow Sergio proclaims that he has an anxiety disorder and starts taking it and then goes out and wins the grand slam. Think people might get interested then?

Another: if Micheel can supplement with Test, why can't a guy who is "low normal," say 350 be allowed to supplement up to a "high normal" 900?

Another example, it was well know in the 80's and 90's that beta blockers were great for calming nerves. A lot of precision sport athletes were on them (like archers and shooters). So why should only the guys that had high blood pressure be allowed to use them?

[b]The "old school" argument would be that if you have hormonal, psychological or other "issues" that don't allow you to be competitive, that's just part of sport and one factor that separates also-rans from the greats. A huge part of competitive golf is being able to control your nerves and emotions so why should people with these problems feel entitled to compete by taking drugs? (playing devil's advocate here as I see both sides)[/b]

I'm 5'6" and can't jump. I never felt entitled to take HGH so that I'd grow tall and have a better chance at becoming a basketball player. A midget is never going to hold the world high jump record. That's just too bad. We all aren't given the same gifts.
[/quote]

You must be real popular with the hairdressers with all the hair splitting you do.

I am going to ignore the whole "man-boob" implication too, or else I will end up getting banned, but certainly take a moment to consider which of the five fingers on my right hand might be raised towards the computer screen right now.

"Old School?" You really know all the jargon it seems. Funny though, because when I think back to all the family and friends that I have who are definitely of the "old school" generation, I can't think of a single one who would tell some young man or woman to get lost from the course or a competition if they couldn't be "like everyone else." I can't even believe you asked why certain folks should "feel entitled..." I'll give you a reason, because the Tour agrees to work with them within the rules. Slippery slope eliminated for all but the part time moralists.

Btw, if you are 5'6 and can't jump, I hope you are a really fast runner because that intolerant jive you dished out just now probably won't go over so well among some folks who happen to be within arm's reach. Might be a fun little social experiment, though. Be sure to watch out for the cheaters taking testosterone. You can flash the "rules" in front of them when they catch you.

[hoganfan924]

^ Maybe some folks should take meds for their anger management problems.

[DLiver]

I have perfect vision. I don't think people without perfect vision should be allowed to correct it because that's not their natural state, and enhanced vision gives them an advantage. I don't think players should be allowed to replace their old joints with better, artificial joints. That gives them an advantage. I don't think people should be allowed to replace their hearts with a new heart because that's not their natural state, and it enhances their performance over their natural state (which would be deceased). I don't think players should be allowed to take pain relievers for sore or injured muscles, because that definitely enhances their performance.

Some ridiculous arguments in this thread, eh?

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Dollar Divots' timestamp='1368587835' post='7037782']
My dr says 2 Xanax bars turn into 6 and so on do you have nervous anxiety at church or say at the clubhouse Mac o said something about beta blockers lot money exempt status no need to be uptight breathe said rotella so the dr says ok this is not enhancing
[/quote]

Maybe try a sentence or something.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1368639238' post='7041360']
I have perfect vision. I don't think people without perfect vision should be allowed to correct it because that's not their natural state, and enhanced vision gives them an advantage. I don't think players should be allowed to replace their old joints with better, artificial joints. That gives them an advantage. I don't think people should be allowed to replace their hearts with a new heart because that's not their natural state, and it enhances their performance over their natural state (which would be deceased). I don't think players should be allowed to take pain relievers for sore or injured muscles, because that definitely enhances their performance.

Some ridiculous arguments in this thread, eh?
[/quote]

vision is measurable. So to make someone 20/20 like you would be ok.

Joints I don't know though. If it made the chap super strong or flexible...might be a problem.

Heart is cool because you aren't a racehorse out there on the course.

Agree with pain relievers. Hogan didn't take any. Be a man!

All in good fun of course.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368637680' post='7041184']
^ Maybe some folks should take meds for their anger management problems.
[/quote]


Looks like I win.

Then again, I had a "competitive advantage," didn't I?

[Snufles]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1368547746' post='7033034']
[quote name='Lord Helmet' timestamp='1368546929' post='7032934']
So what are you saying? His normal playing condition is the disorder? He takes medicine? What is your position? You seem to think meds are somehow enhancing...but then say its ok for him to do it? Where do you stand? You are confusing me - I cant seem to get a real feel for exactly what you are saying. Seems you want the platform to argue both sides of the arguement....maybe that is why I am not following.
[/quote]

I'm saying it enhances his ability to play the game. Without the meds is what I would consider his "normal," which it is. He's normally a panicked person. The meds enable him to over come it. It enhances HIS ability to play the game from what I call his "normal." I have ZERO issues with him taking the meds and being allowed to play on the PGA Tour just as I would have no issues with someone taking testosterone to boost their testosterone to their "normal" levels. I had no issues with Vijay when he took the snake oil. I had no issues when MLB players were juicing. I had no problems with Lance taking steroids but I did have issues with how he handled it and tried to sue people because he was the on lying.
[/quote]

You must have no idea what a panic attack is.

Feelings of impending doom and death that stack up, one on top of another, till you can't even breathe. I would take Low Testosterone in a second over a mild panic attack.

If he managed to get into a final grouping with Tiger on a Sunday and finished the round, he would top my list of Heros.

[jons1]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1368559307' post='7034346']
In Charlie's case it's obviously even more performance enhancing than someone who doesn't have anxiety issues. The question is really "does it give him an unfair advantage?" Same kind of deal with the guys who are approved to take supplemental testosterone (Shaun Micheel).

The problem is the "slippery slope."
[/quote]



absolutely. next thing you know people will be popping anti-inflammatories, taking cortisone shots, maybe even taking allergy medicine. What a nightmare! Everything you consume is performance enhancing. Heck, gatorade is as well.

News flash, players in all sports are Already taking meds now. Hell, there's guys that play drunk, high, or otherwise... xanax for a guy like Charlie is not the start of any slippery slope.

when a guy has extreme anxiety and panic attacks, taking meds is not giving him an edge. it's barely allowing him to think like a normal person that doesn't think he's about to die... the ability to handle a back nine at a major on sunday it will not help. think of it this way, on a scale of 1 to 10 of complete terror, you'd probably rate leaving the house a 0 or 1, where he may be rating just leaving his house a 9 or 10. taking the medicine just brings his level down to you and I. when a situation is a 10 to you, it will be a 10 to him with the medicine.

as others have said, if you are diagnosed by a legitimate physician as to having a condition that requires medication, no matter what kind it is, you should be allowed to take it and play sports.

[TigerStrong]

It's in the head...mental case...What's normal anyway?